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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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'The Two Wolves Inside of Us.'
    #19395985 - 01/09/14 09:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Figured some of you here would appreciate this.
This is a snippet I just wrote for the sake of this having been slightly annoying me for a couple years now, thought I'd put it along with a video clip I like from the 2003 movie "The Missing"

I've always felt the ‘Two Wolves’ story to be somewhat philosophically juvenile.
Not to mention, it is not of Native American origins.

I find it philosophically juvenile due to the way in which it relies on the conceptualizations of light and dark, good and evil. A dichotomy born of emotivism, their being bad or good based on what we feel about them and not any qualities necessarily or provably inherent to them.

Variably, we tend to suffer less when we feed into virtuous thought and action, but by no means are there two wolves by whom which one we feed leads to an invariably better outcome, the road to hell, at least figuratively, often being paved with good intentions.
If anything, there is but one wolf and we are it, its cravings and desires often touching both ends of the conceptualized spectrum we have created.
Conceptually dividing them, demonizing some and sanctifying others, a mad game of introspective division and labeling that leads to no-where but internal strife and illness.

The two wolves story is not of Native American origins and its first appearance can be seen in the book “The Holy Spirit: Activating God’s Power in Your Life.”  written in 1978  by the Evangelist Christian Minister, Billy Graham who bailed Martin Luther King Jr. out of jail in the 1960’s civil rights movement after  having been arrested at demonstrations.
This particular variant of the ‘two wolves/dogs’ parable can be found in Chapter 7: The Christian’s Inner Struggle, Page 92.

“AN ESKIMO FISHERMAN came to town every Saturday afternoon. He always brought his two dogs with him. One was white and the other was black. He had taught them to fight on command. Every Saturday afternoon in the town square the people would gather and these two dogs would fight and the fisherman would take bets. On one Saturday the black dog would win; another Saturday, the white dog would win - but the fisherman always won! His friends began to ask him how he did it. He said, “I starve one and feed the other. The one I feed always wins because he is stronger.”
Graham breaks down the story as such on the same page. 
“This story about the two dogs is apt because it tells us something about the inner warfare that comes into the life of a person who is born again. We have two natures within us, both struggling for mastery. Which one will dominate us? It depends on which one we feed.”

It is first cited in another book  published April 1st of 1998 in the form most of us are more familiar with, in a book titled  “Experiencing the Soul: Before Birth, During Life, After Death.”  By Eliot Rose.
This form of the parable can be found on page 15.
“A Native American Elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: “Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time.”  When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment and replied, “The one I feed the most.”



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 'The Two Wolves Inside of Us.' [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19396000 - 01/09/14 09:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Have you ever read Steppenwolf by Herman Hesse?  That is the wolf I am and there is only one as you said.

BTW that's one of the best books I've ever read.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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OfflinejackSpearows
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Re: 'The Two Wolves Inside of Us.' [Re: Icelander]
    #19396271 - 01/09/14 10:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

So the message is basically that we have numerous voices making suggestions to us in terms of decision making, saying this saying that etc.  And that we self consciously choose one of these voices as our realities.  I agree with the message but I have way the hell more than two dogs inside of me.

The next thing to say is that most people probably aren't dealing with a dog that is all heavenly an then a dog that is pure Satan making suggestions.  Thats like saying Well I could have been a serial killer today or volunteered at the food drive.


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: 'The Two Wolves Inside of Us.' [Re: jackSpearows]
    #19396299 - 01/09/14 10:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Have you ever read Steppenwolf by Herman Hesse?  That is the wolf I am and there is only one as you said.

BTW that's one of the best books I've ever read.




Shit, never realized it was anything beyond a band.
Looking at it though, it sounds like I'd really dig it and that it reflects the very thing I am getting at here.
Definitely going to read it.  :thumbup:

Quote:

Wikipedia entry:
"Steppenwolf (orig. German Der Steppenwolf) is the tenth novel by German-Swiss author Hermann Hesse. Originally published in Germany in 1927, it was first translated into English in 1929. Combining autobiographical and psychoanalytic elements, the novel was named after the lonesome wolf of the steppes. The story in large part reflects a profound crisis in Hesse's spiritual world during the 1920s while memorably portraying the protagonist's split between his humanity and his wolf-like aggression and homelessness.[1] The novel became an international success, although Hesse would later assert that the book was largely misunderstood.

As the story begins, the hero is beset by reflections on his being ill-suited for the world of everyday, regular people, specifically for frivolous bourgeois society. In his aimless wanderings about the city he encounters a person carrying an advertisement for a magic theatre who gives him a small book, Treatise on the Steppenwolf. This treatise, cited in full in the novel's text as Harry reads it, addresses Harry by name and strikes him as describing himself uncannily. It is a discourse on a man who believes himself to be of two natures: one high, the spiritual nature of man; the other is low and animalistic, a "wolf of the steppes". This man is entangled in an irresolvable struggle, never content with either nature because he cannot see beyond this self-made concept. The pamphlet gives an explanation of the multifaceted and indefinable nature of every man's soul, but Harry is either unable or unwilling to recognize this













Quote:

jackSpearows said:
So the message is basically that we have numerous voices making suggestions to us in terms of decision making, saying this saying that etc.  And that we self consciously choose one of these voices as our realities.  I agree with the message but I have way the hell more than two dogs inside of me.

The next thing to say is that most people probably aren't dealing with a dog that is all heavenly an then a dog that is pure Satan making suggestions.  Thats like saying Well I could have been a serial killer today or volunteered at the food drive.




What you're saying here is pretty much why I say it is philosophically juvenile.


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: 'The Two Wolves Inside of Us.' [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19396685 - 01/10/14 12:00 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'll second the Steppenwolf recommendation, or anything else by Herman Hesse. He's one of my favourite authors.

I've been reflecting lately on the value of holding contradictory ideas as true. From this perspective, Icelander's and jackSpearows' responses form a satisfying tension. There is one wolf, or there are many.

As you suggested, recognizing the inner turmoil as a simple duality may be an early step in development -- a low resolution, first order perspective.


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Re: 'The Two Wolves Inside of Us.' [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #19396984 - 01/10/14 01:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I dunno man, it seems like a reasonably good metaphor for talking about how we can influence our own minds and emotions.  Obviously we have more than two forces at work within our minds and hearts; I don't think the two wolves story is about seeing the world as black and white, good vs evil.  I see it as an attempt to describe what it's like to make choices about what one does with one's mind. :shrug:

I was first exposed to this story in a book by Pema Chödrön, in which she offers the story (in its "Native American Wisdom" form) as an introduction to some teachings on how to transform fear and aggression into love and kindness.  It worked well in that context. :heart:


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: 'The Two Wolves Inside of Us.' [Re: hmmn]
    #19398031 - 01/10/14 09:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not really down on the whole thing myself. There may be some value in reducing things to the simplest opposition.

The problem for me comes in the labeling of good and evil, particularly for those coming from a somewhat arbitrary religious morality. The opposition may be a false one -- an unnecessary and harmful conflict created out of adherence to a swallowed but unchewed dogma.

I'd point to the long history of religiously motivated violence between people fundamentally the same, or the twisting and suppression of sexuality as examples of this sort of thinking gone wrong. Do I give in to my evil animal urges or take the higher path of abstinence which god commands? Oh look, god rewarded me with kids to fuck!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: 'The Two Wolves Inside of Us.' [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #19398103 - 01/10/14 09:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I feed and starve rhythms in myself.
In that way I try to stay focused.
(tuned in)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 'The Two Wolves Inside of Us.' [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19398185 - 01/10/14 10:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Raven Gnosis said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Have you ever read Steppenwolf by Herman Hesse?  That is the wolf I am and there is only one as you said.

BTW that's one of the best books I've ever read.




Shit, never realized it was anything beyond a band.
Looking at it though, it sounds like I'd really dig it and that it reflects the very thing I am getting at here.
Definitely going to read it.  :thumbup:

Quote:

Wikipedia entry:
"Steppenwolf (orig. German Der Steppenwolf) is the tenth novel by German-Swiss author Hermann Hesse. Originally published in Germany in 1927, it was first translated into English in 1929. Combining autobiographical and psychoanalytic elements, the novel was named after the lonesome wolf of the steppes. The story in large part reflects a profound crisis in Hesse's spiritual world during the 1920s while memorably portraying the protagonist's split between his humanity and his wolf-like aggression and homelessness.[1] The novel became an international success, although Hesse would later assert that the book was largely misunderstood.

As the story begins, the hero is beset by reflections on his being ill-suited for the world of everyday, regular people, specifically for frivolous bourgeois society. In his aimless wanderings about the city he encounters a person carrying an advertisement for a magic theatre who gives him a small book, Treatise on the Steppenwolf. This treatise, cited in full in the novel's text as Harry reads it, addresses Harry by name and strikes him as describing himself uncannily. It is a discourse on a man who believes himself to be of two natures: one high, the spiritual nature of man; the other is low and animalistic, a "wolf of the steppes". This man is entangled in an irresolvable struggle, never content with either nature because he cannot see beyond this self-made concept. The pamphlet gives an explanation of the multifaceted and indefinable nature of every man's soul, but Harry is either unable or unwilling to recognize this













Quote:

jackSpearows said:
So the message is basically that we have numerous voices making suggestions to us in terms of decision making, saying this saying that etc.  And that we self consciously choose one of these voices as our realities.  I agree with the message but I have way the hell more than two dogs inside of me.

The next thing to say is that most people probably aren't dealing with a dog that is all heavenly an then a dog that is pure Satan making suggestions.  Thats like saying Well I could have been a serial killer today or volunteered at the food drive.




What you're saying here is pretty much why I say it is philosophically juvenile.





It's a knockout story.  I've read it at least a half dozen times.  They also made it into a Movie that actually does the book justice.  Max Von Sydow is perfectly cast as Harry. Everyone in the book is perfectly cast imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: 'The Two Wolves Inside of Us.' [Re: Icelander]
    #19403959 - 01/11/14 01:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Watched it yesterday evening, loved it.
Here's a link to it if anyone is interested.
http://www.putlocker.com/file/CFC6B13405CFC50A#

I especially liked the part when he initially opened the treatise and the animation begun which described him. It was literally my life in a nut-shell...
Describes perfectly what I was talking about in quinn's thread, The Fall.

Quote:

Raven Gnosis said:
As soon as I was old enough to begin expressing myself I started having trouble.
Bottom line is, I disturbed people. Nothing too radically out of the ordinary, I just showed natural resistance to BS and was alienated, ostracized and demonized from a very young age because of it. I said things and asked things that very young children 'shouldn't' and didn't take orders without good reason.

For as long as I can remember, this caused issues for me. I was treated like I was sick, labeled with utter bullshit like oppositional defiant disorder and ADHD and medicated.
All because I had a powerfully curious and independent mind as a very young child. I was in essence taught that who and how I was by my very nature was wrong.
(I struggled a lot with self love and anxiety/anger issues in my pre and mid teen years for this reason.)

For this very reason, I feel like I have been one of the fallen, one of the outcasted since I was a very young boy and have identified with figures like Lucifer since my early years.
It doesn't help any that people have called me the devil on several occasions, not for anything sincerely wicked, but for how I challenge their paradigm and at times disturb them through my very being...




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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 'The Two Wolves Inside of Us.' [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19404864 - 01/11/14 05:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It was literally my life in a nut-shell...

Then we are kin.  Do we relate to that movie so well due to our age? 

Now read the book when you get the time. You won't be sorry.  Hesse was an amazing writer and imo this was his best.  Yet he always seemed to want to distance himself from it.  I think it was his masterpiece.  Not many agree.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: 'The Two Wolves Inside of Us.' [Re: Icelander]
    #19406229 - 01/11/14 11:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It was literally my life in a nut-shell...

Then we are kin.  Do we relate to that movie so well due to our age? 

Now read the book when you get the time. You won't be sorry.  Hesse was an amazing writer and imo this was his best.  Yet he always seemed to want to distance himself from it.  I think it was his masterpiece.  Not many agree.




I'm definitely going to get a copy.

Not sure what you mean by age.
I'm 25, but a marred soul whose life has been marked by constant struggle for mental survival through pretty consistent near life swallowing hardship. These hardships have helped further shape my innate nature and have prevented me from developing fully into what is culturally expected of me, which definitely hurts from time to time egoically.
But, this culture cannot offer things like the deathlike ecstasy of rocking myself into a trance by a fire underneath a 200 year old tree. It cannot offer the wisdom gained through suffering, it castrates my brothers of their spirit has tried to do the same to me since I was a wee lad too young to comprehend how and why drawing spirals made me 'sick' and 'disturbed' to use my 1st grade teacher's exact words, and a monster for the anger he experienced and expressed due to the pain he didn't have the emotional intelligence to articulate just yet.

I think certain cultural attitudes that have been carried throughout this epoch, our age, these past several hundred years, we were both raised are the culprit for that sort of struggle.

I don't think it shows any sign of letting up either.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 'The Two Wolves Inside of Us.' [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19407286 - 01/12/14 08:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well I'm 26 so that only puts us a year apart.

Psychedelics do offer us some of those shamanic opportunities if we are willing to take the risks and the doses.  You are generally correct though and things will not let up anytime soon.  But you can find help in the most unlikely places if you are willing to look and travel alone if need be.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: 'The Two Wolves Inside of Us.' [Re: Icelander]
    #19407321 - 01/12/14 08:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well I'm 26 so that only puts us a year apart.






Well I'm 16 so that only puts us a decade apart.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 'The Two Wolves Inside of Us.' [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19407395 - 01/12/14 08:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You've done well financially.  The future looks bright. :thumbup:

But what does your Mom say about you posting here. :nono:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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! [Re: Icelander]
    #19407480 - 01/12/14 09:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You've done well financially.  The future looks bright. :thumbup:

But what does your Mom say about you posting here. :nono:




Not much anymore.  Something about the dead part.

But you knew that.  And thanks, pal, for reminding me!

Your the best. 

Ha ha.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: ! [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19408031 - 01/12/14 11:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm seeing a similar vein in what I've read from people that speak on dealing with grief and tragic loss. Specifically:

Quote:

Author A.S.Byatt has occasionally spoken about the longevity of bereavement. She lost her son forty years ago. He was eleven. Twenty years later she told an interviewer, “You don’t get over it and you suffer greatly from people supposing you will. You suffer from people not understanding the pain of grief.”

Another twenty years on, Byatt shared with another interviewer a metaphor she developed with her friend Gill Cadell, a widow. It involves parallel train tracks:

“One is appalling and one you just go along,” explained Byatt. “Gill said to me, ‘Is it alright to be pleased to see the flowers in the morning?’ And I said, ‘Oh yes, because the other track is always there.’”

The interviewer asked, “You mean the appalling track?”

“Yep.”

“And it’s still there?”

“Oh yes, it hasn’t changed.”’

You see, winter trickles into the beginnings of spring. It’s okay to try loving a new person while still loving your ex. The heart can simultaneously run along multiple tracks.





It's a sort of empowerment, IMO, knowing that we are not 2 dimensional beings, but multi-faceted. The river runs deep.



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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: ! [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #19408827 - 01/12/14 03:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well I'm 26 so that only puts us a year apart.

Psychedelics do offer us some of those shamanic opportunities if we are willing to take the risks and the doses.  You are generally correct though and things will not let up anytime soon.  But you can find help in the most unlikely places if you are willing to look and travel alone if need be.





62, 26, whats the difference, at least that's the logic I use to justify my insatiable lust for old women. :crazy2:

Although I still got that wanderlust, I've done a bit of traveling around. Mostly alone and through the wilderness and it catalyzed a change in me as strong if not stronger than psychedelics and the heavy introspective work I've done.

It all being a proverbial opening of Pandora's box, but I wouldn't trade it for anything now. I got to a level where I had a total collapse of paradigm and identity structure, spent a two good years reconstructing myself, it was a tumultuous but beautiful time, I got glimpses of the rawness of childhood again and found my spirit, for a lack of better words.
Was driven there by the deep need to heal and understand why my young mind was in such turmoil, culture had no answers, only nosological labels for everything that carried heavy social stigmas, a pricey prescription and consequently a greater sense of insecurity.

I've always been 'shamanic' by my nature, one of my favorite memories my brother likes to remind me of is sitting in the field by my grandma's house and having everyone close their eyes. I remember vividly seeing a hellscape and saying something about it. It terrified my cousin and he ran back to my grandma's house and told his dad. He wasn't allowed to come stay the night at my place anymore. :lol:


Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
I'm seeing a similar vein in what I've read from people that speak on dealing with grief and tragic loss. Specifically:

Quote:

Author A.S.Byatt has occasionally spoken about the longevity of bereavement. She lost her son forty years ago. He was eleven. Twenty years later she told an interviewer, “You don’t get over it and you suffer greatly from people supposing you will. You suffer from people not understanding the pain of grief.”

Another twenty years on, Byatt shared with another interviewer a metaphor she developed with her friend Gill Cadell, a widow. It involves parallel train tracks:

“One is appalling and one you just go along,” explained Byatt. “Gill said to me, ‘Is it alright to be pleased to see the flowers in the morning?’ And I said, ‘Oh yes, because the other track is always there.’”

The interviewer asked, “You mean the appalling track?”

“Yep.”

“And it’s still there?”

“Oh yes, it hasn’t changed.”’

You see, winter trickles into the beginnings of spring. It’s okay to try loving a new person while still loving your ex. The heart can simultaneously run along multiple tracks.





It's a sort of empowerment, IMO, knowing that we are not 2 dimensional beings, but multi-faceted. The river runs deep.






Its true, I run on both those tracks most of everyday. :thumbup:
Its allowed me to see beauty in things many people don't...


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: ! [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19408853 - 01/12/14 03:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Neutral Zone Infraction.

Defense.

5 yards.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: ! [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19408958 - 01/12/14 04:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Can't escape the NFL no matter where I turn. Thought this was suppose to be God's day of rest. :facepalm3:
Where have all the good Jews gone?


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