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Invisiblerougescientist
Learn, try, execute.

Registered: 12/09/13
Posts: 79
Lets talk about Libertarians * 1
    #19397899 - 01/10/14 08:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Hi Everyone!

Just wanted to put something out there and get some discussion about Libertarians and the political ideology and history of the movement. To keep things simple I am talking about USA Libertarians in the recent years. Few things that I found Interesting...

1.) History

From my understanding Libertarians originated in the USA around 1950. Some notable characters that influenced the ideology are:
-Milton Friedman and his son David Friedman
-Ayn Rand (she technically rejected the libertarian name and developed Objectivism and has influenced may libertarians today)
-John Hospers (1st Libertarian pres. candidate)
-David Noland(founded the party in USA)
-Robert Nozick(Harvard proff.)
-Noam Chomsky(contemporary libertarian socialist)
-Henry David Thoreau
-Joseph Déjacque (The first person to ID themselves as Libratarian)
-Walter Block


I could go on, the cool thing you find out is that the ideology is not as simple as its seems. I say that because of the "media" popularizing a certain kind of libertarian in the recent years. Ron Paul and the Tea Party have somewhat hi-jacked the ideology and brought it to the mainstream.

The interesting part of this is the diversity in origins and ideology, you have people from all sides of the political spectrum that turn to libertarianism when they become disgruntled with the current system. I feel like this is happening today with our lack of choice between elected officials as we have a 2 party system that is failing in providing genuine candidates that are devoted to serving the people. Instead they are devoted to their party and their political donations.

What do you think? Are you a Leftists Libertarian, an anarchist, a Tea Party Libertarian, Republican Libertarian, Democrat Libertarian.. How do you identify yourself?


2.) Demographics

Recent polls show Libertarians as 17-23% of the US electorate.

A 2011 Reason-Rupe poll found that among those who self-identified as Tea Party supporters, 41 percent leaned libertarian and 59 percent socially conservative.

More than two-thirds (68 percent) of libertarians are men, while 32 percent are women.

Nearly all (94 percent) libertarians identifying as non-Hispanic whites.

More than 6-in-10 (62 percent) libertarians are under the age of 50, including one-quarter (25 percent) who are under the age of 30.

Protestants (27 percent) or religiously unaffiliated (27 percent).
Roughly one-quarter (23 percent) of libertarians identify as white evangelical Protestant,
1-in-10 (11 percent) identify as Catholic.

3.) Is American Libretariansim a scam?

I found some interesting information about this issue. Many people think that Libertarians are being used to back industry. It is no secret that there are think tanks and organizations that identify themselves as Libertarians and were established and funded by industry.

It is thought that the modern Libertarian is being manipulated for financial gains by Corporate interests.

Below is an excerpt from a NYT article and other sources:

Milton Friedman. Back in 1950, the House of Representatives held hearings on illegal lobbying activities and exposed both Friedman and the earliest libertarian think-tank outfit as a front for business lobbyists. Those hearings have been largely forgotten, in part because we’re too busy arguing over the finer points of “libertarian populism.”

Milton Friedman. In his early days, before millions were spent on burnishing his reputation, Friedman worked as a business lobby shill, a propagandist who would say whatever he was paid to say.  That's the story we need to revisit to get to the bottom of the modern American libertarian "movement," to see what it's really all about. We need to take a trip back to the post-war years, and to the largely forgotten Buchanan Committee hearings on illegal lobbying activities, led by a pro-labor Democrat from Pennsylvania, Frank Buchanan.

What the Buchanan Committee discovered was that in 1946, Milton Friedman and his U Chicago cohort George Stigler arranged an under-the-table deal with a Washington lobbying executive to pump out covert propaganda for the national real estate lobby in exchange for a hefty payout, the terms of which were never meant to be released to the public. They also discovered that a lobbying outfit which is today credited by libertarians as the movement’s first think-tank — the Foundation for Economic Education — was itself a big business PR project backed by the largest corporations and lobbying fronts in the country.

It starts just after the end of World War Two, when America’s industrial and financial giants, fattened up from war profits, established a new lobbying front group called the Foundation for Economic Education (FEE) that focused on promoting a new pro-business ideology—which it called “libertarianism”— to supplement other business lobbying groups which focused on specific policies and legislation.

The FEE is generally regarded as “the first libertarian think-tank” as  Reason’s Brian Doherty calls it in his book “Radicals For Capitalism: A Freewheeling History of the Modern Libertarian Movement” (2007). As the Buchanan Committee discovered, the Foundation for Economic Education was the best-funded conservative lobbying outfit ever known up to that time, sponsored by a Who’s Who of US industry in 1946.

If you are a Libertarian are you suspicious of the faces (Ron Paul) or financial backers of the movement?

4.) Pipe Dream vs. Real world

This is the most interesting aspect of the ideology. That is the real world application of such a ideology. Would it work? Would it be a pipe dream like communism?

The answer is not know, that is because there is not a single nation on earth today that identifies itself as libertarian.

"If libertarianism was a good idea, wouldn’t at least one country have tried it? Wouldn’t there be at least one country, out of nearly two hundred, with minimal government, free trade, open borders, decriminalized drugs, no welfare state and no public education system?"

There is a flip side to this argument above... There are countries that are more libertarian than others but no pure system. So, one could say that for example Ireland is a libertarian country but that would be a stretch. Libertarians usually mix and match systems just like China is not a communist country but a hybrid of communism/capitalism.

If you ID yourself as a Libertarian are you aware of the lack of pure Libertarian countries and if so what do you think about it? Are you willing to undergo the experiment or do you want Libertarian Ideals mixed with our current system?

My opinion:

Well that was a long post but I thought that it is a nice way to look at a movement that is growing in the USA. I wanted to share some of the things I found while doing some reading.

I also want to share that I am not a Libertarian.

I do not dislike or like the current people that ID themselves as Libertarians. I just want to try to understand where the ideology is coming from and the reasons that people are drawn to it.

I do share a lot of the core ideals that bind Libertarians such as: Low taxes, anti-war, personal freedoms, anti-intervention foreign policy.....

But, I have my concerns with adhering to the ideology in a modern society with many competing interests and multi-facited problems that we face today. I do think that we need government.

Gov't has done a good job with some things. Industry and the free market is great at doing other things as well. But, to rely on private conglomerates to take care of public resources and services is troubling. My main concern is with the Environment as its problems are large in scale and the EPA (along with the clean water act and clean air act) has done amazing things since the 1970's. I also realize that the Gov't is lacking in many aspects of environmental policy today. But, overall I can not see private companies spending mass amounts of money to clean up everybody's air/water/soil.

Sorry again for the essay- peace!
Do you Identify as Libertarian?
You may choose only one
Do you think that current Libertarian politicians are in bed with industry?
You may choose only one
Is a pure Libertarian system viable?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (01/10/14 09:43 AM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



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“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson:mushroom2:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: rougescientist] * 2
    #19398139 - 01/10/14 09:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Noam Chomsky is not a Libertarian as the term is used in America. He is just slightly (if at all) to the right of Karl Marx. Chomsky is a stone Collectivist. Thoreau wasn't as bad as Chomsky, but he is for sure not a Libertarian as the term is used in America. Déjacque was an outright commie.

Quote:

What do you think? Are you a Leftists Libertarian…



Contradiction in terms.

Quote:

...an anarchist…



Anarchists are not Libertarians. Anarchists insist that government be forbidden, Libertarians insist that government (albeit very strictly limited government) is essential.

Quote:

...Democrat Libertarian..



Contradiction in terms.

Quote:

How do you identify yourself?



Since your poll doesn't seem to work for me, here is my political classification -

Classical Liberal/Minarchist/Laissez-faire Capitalist/Objectivist. Each of these terms describes essentially the same political philosophy with at most very tiny variations. Half a century ago in North America I could have just said, "Libertarian", saved myself a lot of redundant keystrokes, and everyone would know where I stood on fundamental issues. Not today. The problem today is that so many people - sometimes people with diametrically opposed fundamental political positions - lay claim to the classification "Libertarian" that it has lost all its meaning. When people see no contradiction in naming both David Freidman and Noam Chomsky "Libertarian" you know it's time to discard the term.

Quote:

"If libertarianism was a good idea, wouldn’t at least one country have tried it? Wouldn’t there be at least one country, out of nearly two hundred, with minimal government, free trade, open borders, decriminalized drugs, no welfare state and no public education system?"



This question indicates an ignorance so profound it's painful to observe. The answer is of course that yes, there was at least one such country. A very famous country, in fact. A request to the regulars of the forum - please don't stumble over each other trying to be the first to name that country.

The reason Classical Liberalism, Minarchism, Laissez-faire Capitalism, Objectivism, Libertarianism (as represented by the American Libertarian political party) appeal to so many people is because it is the only politico-socio-economic system that fully recognizes, respects, and protects the rights of its constituents.



Phred


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: Phred]
    #19398705 - 01/10/14 12:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

i don't like to identify with a specific political movement, though libertarianism falls closest to me. Essentially i am socially liberal and financially conservative. And a problem i have with your question is that 'pure libertarianism' does not exist because there are so many different philosophies attached to the term. America upon founding was libertarian, we were capitalist and thats what made us to most powerful country in the world. Unfortunately we have very little capitalism left, if any at all. There are countries that are more libertarian than others in some aspects, the countries that have decriminalized some/all drugs for instance.

And of course governments have a role, a very important one, that is a central theme in libertarianism. That governments protect the individual from coercion is the central pillar of what government should be. And personally i believe in other gov programs as well, certain environmental programs should be in place, however the EPA in its current form does more bad than good. Fire, police, and military should be government run. Roads i don't think need to be however.


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Think for yourself, question authority


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InvisibleEchro
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: Phred]
    #19398739 - 01/10/14 12:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

There are so many assertions wrong here. I'll try to be brief so I don't get myself too involved in the intricacies & complexity of this subject.

Most U.S. libertarians do not identify with Tea Party.
More--
Tea Partiers aren’t libertarian but Religious Right

I guess you could describe me as a "Lowercase L libertarian" or whatever. I don't identify with the party really, & I scarcely use libertarian to describe myself to others only because I tend to avoid such dialogue, as most contemporaries of mine are pretty collectivist & I don't see it worth my time getting heated over something, especially if it requires a lot of explanation.
I am suspicious of certain Libertarian think tanks, Libertarian Politicians, & the growing amount of Jingoistic Right-Wingers describing themselves as "libertarian". I also distrust Big Business as much as I distrust Big Government.

"Conglomerates" would scarcely exist in a libertarian system. The Corporate Liberal world we know today is a byproduct of Progressive Era Policies & the New Deal,
"It often is claimed that free markets and private property generate centralized monopolies and other ills; the counter is that government is the source of monopoly. Historian Gabriel Kolko in his book The Triumph of Conservatism argued that in the first decade of the 20th century businesses were highly decentralized and competitive, with new businesses constantly entering existing industries. There was no trend towards concentration and monopolization. While there were a wave of mergers of companies trying to corner markets, they found there was too much competition to do so. This also was true in banking and finance, which saw decentralization as leading to instability as state and local banks competed with the big New York City firms. The largest firms turned to the power of the state and working with leaders like United States Presidents Theodore Roosevelt, William H. Taft and Woodrow Wilson passed as "progressive reforms" centralizing laws like The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 that gave control of the monetary system to the wealthiest bankers; the formation of monopoly "public utilities" that made competition with those monopolies illegal; federal inspection of meat packers biased against small companies; extending Interstate Commerce Commission to regulating telephone companies and keeping rates high to benefit AT&T; and using the Sherman Anti-trust Act against companies which might combine to threaten larger or monopoly companies."
The Regulatory State is run, & probably will always be run, by large economic powers. & before you write off the quotation as free market libertarian rhetoric, it is worth noting that it was primarily New Leftist anti-authoritarian academics of the 60's that are the originators of this thesis, not some "free market shill". The findings are entirely compatible with generally understood economic law.
Your contestment of "Privatization" is understandable, only because no real privatization/deregulation is really going on when it's claimed that it is. If costs are still being socialized, it's not private. It's also worth noting that not all "public goods" need to be either owned by a Government municipality or Private Utility Firm. Economist Elinor Ostrom demonstrated it is entirely possible for resources to be publically managed by a community within the framework of local level arrangements.

As for the assertions that Left Libertarianism is self contradictory, that may seem so, but it is an existing semantic distinction none the less, an umbrella term for many existing ideologies. The good bulk of them I disagree with, however, many of them I likely share commonalities with.
& I would disagree with the assertion that anarchism implies an opposition to Government. In my mind it implies an opposition to The State. There's a difference in my mind, that being the difference between a voluntary, free association & a coercive, monopolistic institution. I don't see the word anarchism worth fighting for, though. Idealist-Egalitarian-Collectivist-Fucktards can keep it, & all the misconceptions associated with it. The terms Panarchism & Autarchism have etymological roots in the Laissez-Faire, libertarian & Individualist traditions, so If I were to get really semantic I'd probably Identify somewhere with those terms.
I could get into this shit for days but I'm burned out on it, I don't find it worth my time to have to draw a line in the sand only to moments later have to fight over that line. It's petty. Until I can articulate my thoughts better someday I'll remain insulated, on principle. I don't feel a need to make converts because I'm pessimistic about the world. But in terms of intellectual endeavors, the supposedly science & reason loving leftists have done themselves no favors by writing economics as some "Petit Bourgeois Science." Even a basic understanding of economic law can be a light in the dark of the great affairs of human history, & the incompatibility of political idealism with the state of human nature. If I believe in anything, anything at all, it is liberty. It seems to me to be the only ideal compatible with human nature. To me, the only framework capable of permitting that is one which permits the individual to be free from all invasion, whether public or private.


--------------------
"People who take Life seriously are going to find it slipping through their fingers in a very maddening fashion." ~ Terence McKenna

"You still want to go on living on your knees. But I have understood life.
And anyone who understands life cannot live on his knees." ~ Renzo Novatore


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Invisiblerougescientist
Learn, try, execute.

Registered: 12/09/13
Posts: 79
Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: Phred]
    #19399410 - 01/10/14 02:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)


"Noam Chomsky is not a Libertarian as the term is used in America. He is just slightly (if at all) to the right of Karl Marx. Chomsky is a stone Collectivist. Thoreau wasn't as bad as Chomsky, but he is for sure not a Libertarian as the term is used in America. Déjacque was an outright commie."---Phred

I can't get the quotes to work so I am just going to put what you said in quotes.. shit but here is my take below...

Noam Chomsky self identifies as a Libertarian Socialist. He is influential and far from what most consider a "USA Libertarian." That is the point I was trying to make. He is an american and a recent addition to the ideology. It is just that he is different than the Ron Paul Libertarian. With that said he is an influential political philosopher that identifies with the ideology.

I do think that one can be liberal and Identify with the Dems. but have libertarian leanings. I do not think its a contradiction. That is what I find so interesting that in recent years there is only one brand pre-packaged libertarian. I agree with you that the term nowadays has become really muddled.

I agree that Joseph Déjacque was a communist and his views are repulsive to most americans. But he did coin the term and it influenced what we have today and the diversity in the ideology. There is a left and a right extreme with in the ideology. You cannot just accept the word for what it is today. It has a long history and a interesting one at that.

I was not trying to put anyone in a box and I like your answer that you wrote:

"Classical Liberal/Minarchist/Laissez-faire Capitalist/Objectivist. Each of these terms describes essentially the same political philosophy with at most very tiny variations. Half a century ago in North America I could have just said, "Libertarian", saved myself a lot of redundant keystrokes, and everyone would know where I stood on fundamental issues. Not today. The problem today is that so many people - sometimes people with diametrically opposed fundamental political positions - lay claim to the classification "Libertarian" that it has lost all its meaning. When people see no contradiction in naming both David Freidman and Noam Chomsky "Libertarian" you know it's time to discard the term."---Phred

That is the kind of discussion I wanted to see from the forum and why I wrote this.

As for the USA being a libertarian country, I do not think that it is the case today. It could have been true at one time long ago. But, today especially the last 50 years have not been kind to our personal freedoms. Today I feel more free when I travel outside the USA and not while in the USA.

The part that you quoted and disagreed with about no country being libertarian was not mine thats why I have it in quotes. I just wanted to explore both sides of the coin and see what people thought.


great convo-
Thanks Phred


Edited by rougescientist (01/10/14 02:24 PM)


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Invisiblerougescientist
Learn, try, execute.

Registered: 12/09/13
Posts: 79
Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: Echro]
    #19399436 - 01/10/14 02:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Echro said:
There are so many assertions wrong here. I'll try to be brief so I don't get myself too involved in the intricacies & complexity of this subject.

Most U.S. libertarians do not identify with Tea Party.
More--
Tea Partiers aren’t libertarian but Religious Right

I guess you could describe me as a "Lowercase L libertarian" or whatever. I don't identify with the party really, & I scarcely use libertarian to describe myself to others only because I tend to avoid such dialogue, as most contemporaries of mine are pretty collectivist & I don't see it worth my time getting heated over something, especially if it requires a lot of explanation.
I am suspicious of certain Libertarian think tanks, Libertarian Politicians, & the growing amount of Jingoistic Right-Wingers describing themselves as "libertarian". I also distrust Big Business as much as I distrust Big Government.




Thats the thing with polls.... I got those off the web and they are representative of the population they were polling. They are not representative of all people and a lot comes down to how the question is asked. That is the problem with polls they are never really accurate or give us a clear picture. I am sure that the polls you quoted, and I took a look at them, are correct as well. The tea party is a radical evangelical right wing clusterfuck they are really far away from what I would consider libertarian. That said it is upsetting to me to see them hijacking the term with out understanding what it means.
Some of these think tanks are really suspicious, I agree. 

Another thing is that if you are a free thinker and not a follower you can't be put in a box. Most people agree with some of the things some parties do. It is really hard to find someone who thinks critically, that agrees with one party 100%. I voted for Obama. I am really unhappy that I did and I don't agree with a lot of what the guy does. He is another Bush if not worse in my opinion. But we have to check a box and we never really get what we want.


--------------------
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson:mushroom2:


Edited by rougescientist (01/10/14 02:32 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: rougescientist]
    #19399638 - 01/10/14 03:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Noam Chomsky self identifies as a Libertarian Socialist.



He does that because if he were honest and truthfully self-identified as a socialist it would blow his cover. Chomsky is one of the most dishonest intellectuals still alive. Chomsky is not alone in this, of course - many people claim to be Libertarian for the cover it gives to their true agenda.

Quote:

I do think that one can be liberal and Identify with the Dems. but have libertarian leanings. I do not think its a contradiction.



It is a contradiction. Libertarianism as outlined by the American Libertarian Party has nothing in common with the Democratic Party's platform.

Quote:

There is a left and a right extreme with in the ideology. You cannot just accept the word for what it is today. It has a long history and a interesting one at that.



That is why there's no point discussing it with someone until the term is defined, because these days its use isn't just muddled, it is outright contradictory. There is zero commonality between Chomsky's positions on political and economic issues and David Friedman's, for example. 

Quote:

I was not trying to put anyone in a box…



I understand that, but really, to ask people to talk about Libertarians without narrowing it down substantially is an exercise in futility, since these days just about everyone other than maybe Fascists wants to tag the suffix "Libertarian" onto his personal political philosophy. It's the trendy thing to do. Hence the appearance of such idiocy as "Libertarian Communism" .

Quote:

As for the USA being a libertarian country, I do not think that it is the case today. It could have been true at one time long ago. But, today especially the last 50 years have not been kind to our personal freedoms.



True. The US hasn't been Libertarian for at least a century now. But its foundational documents - the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of RIghts are profoundly Libertarian in nature.

Quote:

The part that you quoted and disagreed with about no country being libertarian was not mine thats why I have it in quotes.



I understand that. I wasn't saying you were ignorant for reprinting the question, but that anyone who seriously asks that question is shockingly ignorant.

Quote:

The tea party is a radical evangelical right wing clusterfuck…



No they aren't.

Quote:

...they are really far away from what I would consider libertarian. That said it is upsetting to me to see them hijacking the term with out understanding what it means.



They haven't hijacked the term. Other than actual card-carrying members of the American Libertarian Party, the tea partiers are the closest thing to actual Libertarians you're going to see almost anywhere.

Quote:

Another thing is that if you are a free thinker and not a follower you can't be put in a box.



That is nonsense if by "put in a box" you mean "accurately labelled". I am one of the freest thinkers you will ever come across and I most definitely can be accurately labelled Laissez-fair Capitalist or Minarchist or Classical Liberal or even Objectivist. I didn't reach the conclusions I hold by "following" anyone, but by investigating, observing, and thinking things through in a rational and logical manner.

Quote:

I voted for Obama. I am really unhappy that I did and I don't agree with a lot of what the guy does. He is another Bush if not worse in my opinion. But we have to check a box and we never really get what we want.



In US presidential elections it is almost never a choice between good and bad, but between bad and worse. McCain, for example, was an awful choice, but he was miles better than Obama. Romney wasn't my ideal choice, but he was far ahead of McCain, and light years ahead of Obama.


Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: rougescientist]
    #19400321 - 01/10/14 05:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

rougescientist said:

"Noam Chomsky is not a Libertarian as the term is used in America. He is just slightly (if at all) to the right of Karl Marx. Chomsky is a stone Collectivist. Thoreau wasn't as bad as Chomsky, but he is for sure not a Libertarian as the term is used in America. Déjacque was an outright commie."---Phred

I can't get the quotes to work so I am just going to put what you said in quotes.. shit but here is my take below...

Noam Chomsky self identifies as a Libertarian Socialist.




And I'm the queen of England.
Phred is quite right about the erosion of the word "libertarian" since I would say the seventies.  Same way the commies corrupted the word "liberal" and the word "progressive".

The easiest way to control a debate you can't win is to change the language


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19400899 - 01/10/14 07:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

the US has the 'two-party' system.  The 'two-party system' is basically a multi-faceted organiation of facists, socialists, crony capitalists, and authoritarians with a progressive bent and a globalist mindset.

They will do anything to prevent limiting the power of government including calling people crazy, racists, stupid, anti-government, blah blah blah--ANYTHING--and the libertarians are their nemesis.

As a result, it is imperative that they destroy the libertarians any way possible whether it be by disinformation or ridicule or other means.

Why?

Because the people in the 'two-pary system' want to keep the gravy train rolling that supplies them with the taxpayer money and power that keeps them in control of the country so the looting can continue.


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Edited by starfire_xes (01/10/14 08:35 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19401226 - 01/10/14 09:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe libertarians just don't like others making the rules. Give them liberty and they'll likely turn it into something like what we have now.  That's human nature imo.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: Icelander]
    #19407709 - 01/12/14 10:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Maybe libertarians just don't like others making the rules. Give them liberty and they'll likely turn it into something like what we have now.  That's human nature imo.




:thumbup: It's a pipe dream as much as communism IMO.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: Grapefruit]
    #19408240 - 01/12/14 12:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Maybe libertarians just don't like others making the rules. Give them liberty and they'll likely turn it into something like what we have now.  That's human nature imo.




:thumbup: It's a pipe dream as much as communism IMO.



as has been explained there is not one type of libertarianism. Could you explain what about it is a pipe dream?


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Offlinepretzelking
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: psyconaught]
    #19408438 - 01/12/14 01:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think he is referring to a pure modern american libertarian philosophy where as there is total privatization of every facet of what the governments role is today and the un-restrained private sector which would eventually lead to the destruction of the environment and the exploitation of the working non-land owning class of citizens.

Pure Libertarianism is really just the opposite of pure Communism. Communism = total government control of production and resources vs Libertarianism = total private control of production and resources. The role of government could be central or small and decentralized.

In the real democratic world it is best to be somewhere in the middle to best serve everyone's interests as best as possible. Some Libertarianism and some Socialism together can form a good mixture. The green party is pretty much just that if you look at their platform.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: pretzelking]
    #19408455 - 01/12/14 01:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You are lying about American libertarianism.  Libertarianism is not anarchy.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19408531 - 01/12/14 02:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You are lying about American libertarianism.  Libertarianism is not anarchy.



libertarianism IS NOT the privatization of absolutely everything. That is either a lie or misconception, take your pick.


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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: pretzelking]
    #19408549 - 01/12/14 02:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Your viewpoint on libertarianism, and the viewpoint of many on the soft-socialist left, is that Libertarians somehow want to dstroy the government.  That isn't true at all.

The main point of libertarianism is to get control of he government out of the hands of the polys and back into the hands of the PEOPLE.  And libertarians aren't against government per se, I think the question really is how much government is necessary.


I mean, I look at the government spending, wasting money, and blowting up like a fat overfed Pig but conditions keep deteriorating under both the R's and D's. 

Because they don't serve the people--they serve their own interests.


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Offlinepretzelking
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19408568 - 01/12/14 02:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I wasn't referring to anarchy, I think I still said a government would still exist. For example the government would still have monopoly on military power and police to enforce peoples private rights, It would just be very very limited government in theory. Sorry for being a little vague. You are right though that Libterianism is becoming to broad of a term.

If you look at the Libertarian party platform they advocate selling of federal and state land to the highest bidder, they advocate eliminating social security and medicare completely, they advocate privatizing and de-funding our public schools. Its this things I don't like about the american libertarian party. For the most part I agree with most things, that's why I consider myself a left-leaning libertarian. I definitely despise both R's and D's and find my self usually agreeing with a Green or a Libertarian candidate.


Edited by pretzelking (01/12/14 02:28 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: pretzelking] * 1
    #19408663 - 01/12/14 02:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

pretzelking said:

If you look at the Libertarian party platform they advocate selling of federal and state land to the highest bidder, they advocate eliminating social security and medicare completely, they advocate privatizing and de-funding our public schools. Its this things I don't like about the american libertarian party. For the most part I agree with most things, that's why I consider myself a left-leaning libertarian. I definitely despise both R's and D's and find my self usually agreeing with a Green or a Libertarian candidate.




The public school system is a fucking disaster and the federal government has no business in it at all.  Let the people with the kids fund the schools and you'll find a tremendous savings and improvement in quality.  This often happens when the consumers of a product are the ones paying for the product.  Social security was a rip off and a a Ponzi scheme from the get go and a lot of people knew it.  How we untangle ourselves from it should be of paramount importance.  MediCare likewise.  MedicAid is welfare and I don't think anybody except the extremely infirm should ever get something for nothing.  Ever.  The Greens are big government nutjobs and their overlap with Libertarians should be tiny


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19412261 - 01/13/14 12:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

So only kids who have parents that want to pay for it should be able to get an education? Or the tax payer should pay for kids privately?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: Grapefruit]
    #19412471 - 01/13/14 01:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
So only kids who have parents that want to pay for it should be able to get an education? Or the tax payer should pay for kids privately?



The parents should have to pay.  That's it.


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