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Offlinemonoculture
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Spores from an isolate, MS or?
    #19407289 - 01/12/14 08:08 AM (10 years, 19 days ago)

When you isolate sectors to obtain a clean culture that is genetically the same, and take sporeprints from the mushrooms grown from it, my healthy conscience tells me the genetics of the spores would be the same as the culture, so it would not qualify as MS, but more as an isolated pheno like 8 times inbred cannabis.
But when I search the shroomery, the answer is most of the time, when you start again from spores, everything is reset.
Can someone clarify how genetics can be reset while there is no diversity anymore?


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Spores from an isolate, MS or? [Re: monoculture]
    #19407343 - 01/12/14 08:27 AM (10 years, 19 days ago)

It doesn't matter if spores come from a mushroom of an isolated strain or not. They're still spores and contain multiple genetic possibilities


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Offlinemonoculture
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Re: Spores from an isolate, MS or? [Re: Stromrider]
    #19409404 - 01/12/14 05:48 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Anyone can explain how that is possible from a single set of DNA?


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Re: Spores from an isolate, MS or? [Re: monoculture]
    #19409418 - 01/12/14 05:51 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

it would take multiple generations to stabilize the phenotype, everytime you start from spores you basicly hit a reset button


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Re: Spores from an isolate, MS or? [Re: cronicr] * 1
    #19409422 - 01/12/14 05:53 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
Quote:

Workman said:
Mushrooom genetics are a little strange since a single mushroom produces spores that can then act as both parents for a new mycelium.  Essentially, you are selfing or inbreeding each time you do a multispore grow.

Now consider a wild collection of Psilocybe cubensis with a high heterozygosity.  This basically means that most or all of each pair of genes in the mushroom are different from each other.  Its the same gene location with the same basic function, but different versions.  For example, if there is a single gene for height, you might have a version that gives short mushrooms and a version that gives tall mushrooms.  If heterozygosity is high, you have one of each which may result in medium mushrooms unless one of the height genes is dominant.

Now, when you do multispore from a single mushroom you randomly get a mix of all the genes.  Sticking to our height gene example, you could get two short copies, two tall copies or one of each.  Obviously the strains with two short copies will be short and the ones with two tall copies will be tall. 

Lets say we liked the short mushrooms so we saved that one and took a spore print for later.  In this example the tall version of the height gene is lost to later generations.  There is a net loss of heterozygosity.  Over the entire genome the loss is about 50% per generation.

So mathematically we can figure out how many sequential multispore generations we need until the heterozygosity is reduced to an insignificant level and the strain is stable even from multispore.

Starting with a presumably high (~100%) heterozygosity from a wild collection.  In reality, the heterozygosity is probably lower than 100%, but its an easy number to start with.

100% wild print
50% 1st generation from wild print
25% 2nd generation from 1st generation print
12.5% 3rd generation.....
6.25% 4th generation.....
3.12% 5th generation.....
1.56% 6th generation.....
0.78% 7th generation.....

You can see that the heterozygosity drops off quickly in the first few generations and is less than 1% after the 6th generation.  This highlights the importance of choosing the best traits early on when there are more to choose from.  Attempting to isolate traits in well established strains results in only minimal improvements unless spontaneous mutations increase the heterozygosity in a positive way (rare).

In summary:

Popular classic strains in circulation have all been grown well beyond 6 generations and are relatively stable from multispore with little need for isolation.

New strains, from wild material or cross breeding between different strains of the same species, can be stabilized fairly quickly with 6 or 7 generations of sequential multispore grows.

Selection is most important early in the process and if good genes are bred out, they are gone forever.  Archiving original or early generation prints is recommended for preserving heterozygosity for later selective breeding.  Continuous isolation of a bad strain with hopes of significant improvement is futile.

Does that help?







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InvisibleMudaFuka
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Re: Spores from an isolate, MS or? [Re: cronicr]
    #19409434 - 01/12/14 05:55 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

:havesomescience:


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OfflineCMOS
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Re: Spores from an isolate, MS or? [Re: cronicr]
    #19409723 - 01/12/14 07:11 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Nice, thanks for the quote cronicr! :awethumb:


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Offlinekaptanoblivious
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Re: Spores from an isolate, MS or? [Re: CMOS]
    #19409734 - 01/12/14 07:14 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

That was really useful info cronicr, thanks for reposting it here :thumbup:


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Offlineurthtown
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Re: Spores from an isolate, MS or? [Re: kaptanoblivious]
    #19409795 - 01/12/14 07:31 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

isn't one of these obligatory at this point?

:themoreyouknow:


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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: Spores from an isolate, MS or? [Re: urthtown]
    #19409806 - 01/12/14 07:33 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

just happened to put that in my journal the other day:thumbup:


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Spores from an isolate, MS or? [Re: cronicr]
    #19409831 - 01/12/14 07:41 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Shit I learned something. I guess I knew a lot of this but it's been a really long time since I took classes or read books talking about this stuff.


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Offlinemonoculture
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Re: Spores from an isolate, MS or? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #19411759 - 01/13/14 09:47 AM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Thank you, that was what I was looking for.
But when I read the whole thing, my point about being at a lower diversity between the individual spores would be trough though.


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Re: Spores from an isolate, MS or? [Re: monoculture]
    #19411768 - 01/13/14 09:51 AM (10 years, 18 days ago)

your gonna have plenty of different genetic possibilites, isolation over generations is key to seeing more consistent resluts because your inbreeding


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It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

I'm tired do me a favor


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OfflineOZZ
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Re: Spores from an isolate, MS or? [Re: cronicr]
    #19898524 - 04/25/14 01:29 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
Quote:

cronicr said:
Quote:

Workman said:
Mushrooom genetics are a little strange since a single mushroom produces spores that can then act as both parents for a new mycelium.  Essentially, you are selfing or inbreeding each time you do a multispore grow.

Now consider a wild collection of Psilocybe cubensis with a high heterozygosity.  This basically means that most or all of each pair of genes in the mushroom are different from each other.  Its the same gene location with the same basic function, but different versions.  For example, if there is a single gene for height, you might have a version that gives short mushrooms and a version that gives tall mushrooms.  If heterozygosity is high, you have one of each which may result in medium mushrooms unless one of the height genes is dominant.

Now, when you do multispore from a single mushroom you randomly get a mix of all the genes.  Sticking to our height gene example, you could get two short copies, two tall copies or one of each.  Obviously the strains with two short copies will be short and the ones with two tall copies will be tall. 

Lets say we liked the short mushrooms so we saved that one and took a spore print for later.  In this example the tall version of the height gene is lost to later generations.  There is a net loss of heterozygosity.  Over the entire genome the loss is about 50% per generation.

So mathematically we can figure out how many sequential multispore generations we need until the heterozygosity is reduced to an insignificant level and the strain is stable even from multispore.

Starting with a presumably high (~100%) heterozygosity from a wild collection.  In reality, the heterozygosity is probably lower than 100%, but its an easy number to start with.

100% wild print
50% 1st generation from wild print
25% 2nd generation from 1st generation print
12.5% 3rd generation.....
6.25% 4th generation.....
3.12% 5th generation.....
1.56% 6th generation.....
0.78% 7th generation.....

You can see that the heterozygosity drops off quickly in the first few generations and is less than 1% after the 6th generation.  This highlights the importance of choosing the best traits early on when there are more to choose from.  Attempting to isolate traits in well established strains results in only minimal improvements unless spontaneous mutations increase the heterozygosity in a positive way (rare).

In summary:

Popular classic strains in circulation have all been grown well beyond 6 generations and are relatively stable from multispore with little need for isolation.

New strains, from wild material or cross breeding between different strains of the same species, can be stabilized fairly quickly with 6 or 7 generations of sequential multispore grows.

Selection is most important early in the process and if good genes are bred out, they are gone forever.  Archiving original or early generation prints is recommended for preserving heterozygosity for later selective breeding.  Continuous isolation of a bad strain with hopes of significant improvement is futile.

Does that help?










Great post and it makes perfect sense along most lines.

If this is the case though and 1) most all cube strains are way past 7 generations and 2) Isolating a bad strain is futile ....then wouldn't that suggest that when growing a modern day circulating cube strain from print, if its a poor performer... then cloning isn't going to help much?

At least by that rationale? I'm sure I'm missing something and asking out of curiosity.

We have seen quite a few poor flushes from circulating prints improve dramatically after cloning one of the fruits and fruiting out the clone though... ???

Like I said I realize I'm missing something here?


Edited by OZZ (04/25/14 01:46 PM)


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InvisibleMudaFuka
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Re: Spores from an isolate, MS or? [Re: OZZ]
    #19898581 - 04/25/14 01:44 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

selectively breeding out certain traits over the generations will eliminate certain genetics but there are still many sets of genetics left in each spore print. Cloning allows you to narrow thing down further so you are only using the genetics you choose.


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