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longstrangetrip8
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DMT -- symbolism and jungian archetypes
#19397862 - 01/10/14 08:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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im currently reading dmt spirit molecule (great book!), and have noticed that jungs theories of archetypes are extremely similar to the content of a dmt trip, and his concepts of symbolism are equally applicable.
For example, the book mentions how many people often feel that they are in "rooms" or experience traveling different places. this seems similar to a dream, and jung believed that different rooms/setting in a dream represented different parts of the mind associated with different feelings.
I have also noticed that the content of DMT trips often contain jungian archetypes. One being the 'trickster'-it is pretty common for people to experience clowns, jesters, and other carnival like beings on a dmt trip. people also experience 'shadow beings', which of course coincides with jungs idea of 'the shadow'
not sure what to make of it, but its interesting to see some of the similarities between dreams symbolism, and the content of a dmt trip
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redgreenvines
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Quote:
longstrangetrip8 said: im currently reading dmt spirit molecule (great book!), and have noticed that jungs theories of archetypes are extremely similar to the content of a dmt trip, and his concepts of symbolism are equally applicable.
There are patterns that these guys are picking up on, which are common, however their theories are somewhat crackpot.
people have been fascinated with ideas, forms, and symbolic meaning since before symbolic language.
My take on it is collative (collective is close) and associative: simply stated, if you have several images with the same idea in them and you can align them over each other like translucent slides, you will end up with a composite 'archetype' or symbol... you have associated many individual ideas and made a collective symbol that blends all of them together. Common features become enlarged and enhanced while uncommon ones become blended into the "noise" of the background to the figure. (keep this in mind when we discuss the clown - and trickster)
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longstrangetrip8 said: For example, the book mentions how many people often feel that they are in "rooms" or experience traveling different places. this seems similar to a dream, and jung believed that different rooms/setting in a dream represented different parts of the mind associated with different feelings.
Memory links all the sense channels together for events that happened together in one moment, and it links a series of moments together in passage. When you remember something you recall a tableau from fragmentary triggers (pieces of sensation or ideas that were in the "room") and the rest of the 'room' coalesces around that, while the memory of the moment gells, similar or adjacent moments also coalesce.
The gestalt of the memory is like a room, but more than a room it is like a dimension of that room like place with other similar rooms flickering nearby.
as with all memory, pieces of the memory are distributed all throughout the cortex. rooms are not physically sequestered, i.e. they cannot be surgically removed by excising a cluster of cells from the brain.
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longstrangetrip8 said: I have also noticed that the content of DMT trips often contain jungian archetypes. One being the 'trickster'-it is pretty common for people to experience clowns, jesters, and other carnival like beings on a dmt trip. people also experience 'shadow beings', which of course coincides with jungs idea of 'the shadow'
Jung is totally appropriating mythology without actually proposing anything, although in appropriating and appreciating what is there, he does a great job of pointing the way to something interesting.
In any case, big lipped, red nosed, goofy eyes and hair with oversized buttons and shoes is exactly what you get when you create a layered image of a man using hundreds of men semitransparently.
If you are on DMT or any other psychedelic, and you look at the mirror, your reflection will become clown-like as the persistence of vision layers your view of your wavering image. Clowns range from funny to hideous. the symbol's meaning is neither hideous or ludicrous unless you take it too seriously. It is composite.
The trickster is more than just a reflection of yourself visually, it is the layers of desire, wisdom, and folly that you yourself represent.
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longstrangetrip8 said: not sure what to make of it, but its interesting to see some of the similarities between dreams symbolism, and the content of a dmt trip
etc.
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FishOilTheKid
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Re: DMT -- symbolism and jungian archetypes [Re: redgreenvines]
#19398055 - 01/10/14 09:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Then of course, not to discredit what you write, there are living entities that one can happen upon while fully awake. They often talk in plain voices. One of the biggest hurdles that I've had to surmount in my life is the game that some of these beings play. They trick you over and over until you are exhausted and bleeding energy and life force. Its very real and engaging rather. They are like orbs or little wispy flashes of light that come and go. Some are a jet inky wet black look.
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redgreenvines
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Re: DMT -- symbolism and jungian archetypes [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#19398505 - 01/10/14 11:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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what ever you think of is real.
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FishOilTheKid
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Re: DMT -- symbolism and jungian archetypes [Re: redgreenvines]
#19398703 - 01/10/14 12:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I can't levitate an object...
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Cyclohexylamine
Turn on, Tune in, Drop out



Registered: 09/08/10
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Quote:
longstrangetrip8 said: im currently reading dmt spirit molecule (great book!), and have noticed that jungs theories of archetypes are extremely similar to the content of a dmt trip, and his concepts of symbolism are equally applicable.
For example, the book mentions how many people often feel that they are in "rooms" or experience traveling different places. this seems similar to a dream, and jung believed that different rooms/setting in a dream represented different parts of the mind associated with different feelings.
I have also noticed that the content of DMT trips often contain jungian archetypes. One being the 'trickster'-it is pretty common for people to experience clowns, jesters, and other carnival like beings on a dmt trip. people also experience 'shadow beings', which of course coincides with jungs idea of 'the shadow'
not sure what to make of it, but its interesting to see some of the similarities between dreams symbolism, and the content of a dmt trip
I did not like that book - I didn't think it was going to be filled with psuedo-scientific jumble. In response to your topic, the mind can create some pretty crazy hallucinations when certain receptors are activated and it seems that certain psychedelics have similar hallucinations among people with similar life experiences, leading me to believe that the hallucinations are driven in part by life experience and in part by what receptors are being activated.
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FishOilTheKid
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In psychology, genetic memory is a memory present at birth that exists in the absence of sensory experience, and is incorporated into the genome over long spans of time.[1] It is based on the idea that common experiences of a species become incorporated into its genetic code, not by a Lamarckian process that encodes specific memories but by a much vaguer tendency to encode a readiness to respond in certain ways to certain stimuli.
Genetic memory is invoked to explain the racial memory postulated by Carl Jung. In Jungian psychology, racial memories are posited memories, feelings and ideas inherited from our ancestors as part of a "collective unconscious". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_memory_(psychology)
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redgreenvines
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Re: DMT -- symbolism and jungian archetypes [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#19399176 - 01/10/14 01:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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FishOilTheKid said: I can't levitate an object...
voila! real
an in the case of declaring otherwise, it is real that you are declaring that.
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FishOilTheKid
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Re: DMT -- symbolism and jungian archetypes [Re: redgreenvines]
#19399193 - 01/10/14 01:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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ahhh
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
longstrangetrip8 said: im currently reading dmt spirit molecule (great book!), and have noticed that jungs theories of archetypes are extremely similar to the content of a dmt trip, and his concepts of symbolism are equally applicable.
For example, the book mentions how many people often feel that they are in "rooms" or experience traveling different places. this seems similar to a dream, and jung believed that different rooms/setting in a dream represented different parts of the mind associated with different feelings.
I have also noticed that the content of DMT trips often contain jungian archetypes. One being the 'trickster'-it is pretty common for people to experience clowns, jesters, and other carnival like beings on a dmt trip. people also experience 'shadow beings', which of course coincides with jungs idea of 'the shadow'
not sure what to make of it, but its interesting to see some of the similarities between dreams symbolism, and the content of a dmt trip
What exactly do you mean by "shadow beings?" The Shadow in Analytical Psychology consists in all those aspects of oneself that are suppressed and repressed into the unconscious. That is to say, all those qualities which are opposite to one's conscious attitudes. So, for example, I am a heterosexual male whose sexual orientation is skewed way up the heterosexual continuum. I have never even momentarily entertained a conscious sexual thought about a male. However, I have met one iteration of suppressed/repressed homosexual tendencies in my dreams, wherein a leather-jacketed hustler is encountered under one of those elevated railways that one might find in Queens, NY where I've seen such structures. The very name 'Queens' further suggests a gay male. Dream characters are always aspects of one's own psyche, they are never who or what they appear to be in real life.
I do not disagree with you that psychedelic experiences allows for unconscious archetypal material to become conscious as archetypal images. I just want to be sure we understand the Jungian Shadow here, and that you are not referring to psychic images of shadowy looking entities.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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CosmicJoke
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MarkostheGnostic said: What exactly do you mean by "shadow beings?" The Shadow in Analytical Psychology consists in all those aspects of oneself that are suppressed and repressed into the unconscious. That is to say, all those qualities which are opposite to one's conscious attitudes. So, for example, I am a heterosexual male whose sexual orientation is skewed way up the heterosexual continuum. I have never even momentarily entertained a conscious sexual thought about a male. However, I have met one iteration of suppressed/repressed homosexual tendencies in my dreams, wherein a leather-jacketed hustler is encountered under one of those elevated railways that one might find in Queens, NY where I've seen such structures. The very name 'Queens' further suggests a gay male. Dream characters are always aspects of one's own psyche, they are never who or what they appear to be in real life.
I do not disagree with you that psychedelic experiences allows for unconscious archetypal material to become conscious as archetypal images. I just want to be sure we understand the Jungian Shadow here, and that you are not referring to psychic images of shadowy looking entities. 
I suppose that depends on what you mean by 'encountered' . If I saw a leather-jacketed male hustler in Queens in my dream, personally it would represent the consequences of self-deluded dreams. Maybe he ran away to New York to become an actor without a job lined up and found himself working the streets. I think the real thought suppression occurs after you've woken up. For me, there's a brief window where I actually have to process through my dream to keep it as a memory, before it's lost back in the unconscious. If it's something too disturbing, for better or worse, it can be trashed.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
Edited by CosmicJoke (01/11/14 03:30 PM)
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longstrangetrip8
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
longstrangetrip8 said: im currently reading dmt spirit molecule (great book!), and have noticed that jungs theories of archetypes are extremely similar to the content of a dmt trip, and his concepts of symbolism are equally applicable.
For example, the book mentions how many people often feel that they are in "rooms" or experience traveling different places. this seems similar to a dream, and jung believed that different rooms/setting in a dream represented different parts of the mind associated with different feelings.
I have also noticed that the content of DMT trips often contain jungian archetypes. One being the 'trickster'-it is pretty common for people to experience clowns, jesters, and other carnival like beings on a dmt trip. people also experience 'shadow beings', which of course coincides with jungs idea of 'the shadow'
not sure what to make of it, but its interesting to see some of the similarities between dreams symbolism, and the content of a dmt trip
What exactly do you mean by "shadow beings?" The Shadow in Analytical Psychology consists in all those aspects of oneself that are suppressed and repressed into the unconscious. That is to say, all those qualities which are opposite to one's conscious attitudes. So, for example, I am a heterosexual male whose sexual orientation is skewed way up the heterosexual continuum. I have never even momentarily entertained a conscious sexual thought about a male. However, I have met one iteration of suppressed/repressed homosexual tendencies in my dreams, wherein a leather-jacketed hustler is encountered under one of those elevated railways that one might find in Queens, NY where I've seen such structures. The very name 'Queens' further suggests a gay male. Dream characters are always aspects of one's own psyche, they are never who or what they appear to be in real life.
I do not disagree with you that psychedelic experiences allows for unconscious archetypal material to become conscious as archetypal images. I just want to be sure we understand the Jungian Shadow here, and that you are not referring to psychic images of shadowy looking entities. 
good post, and thats a valid point, as it brings up the uniqueness of the content of both dreams and a trip. while there are universal patterns, whats truly important is what the content means to the person who viewed it, and the thoughts and feeling THEY associate with it. these things will mean something different for everyone else. that being said, while their are strong similarities , dmt trips are still very different than dreams in my experience, and maybe dmt symbolism works different than ordinary dreams?
in a dream and even waking consciousness the shadow, the joker, anima/animus are projections of our own insecurities/personality traits/desires/etc, and in our dreams we tend to project them on things somewhat ordinary or relevant to our daily life. (other people, pets, places we know, etc).
from this stance, it seems that dmt is on a completely different plane than dreaming in the regard that the content and symbolism is far more obscure, abstract, and bizzare, yhan we are accostomed to in waking or even sleeping states of consciousness. yet they are universal. jung often pointed out how we think through symbols, and that symbolic meaning is deeply tied to language and the words we use, and visa versa. these coinciding dmt trip themes could maybe a a different glimpse into some deeper type of symbolism?
I admittedly have no clue, but its fun reading other peoples views on this stuff.
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redgreenvines
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the waking dream (DMT +others) is a bit different from the sleeping dream in that you usually have a feed of live visual fragments and live auditory fragments etc. getting into the mix. otherwise it is the same brain doing layered mind state thing.
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CosmicJoke
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Re: DMT -- symbolism and jungian archetypes [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#19404480 - 01/11/14 04:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: the waking dream (DMT +others) is a bit different from the sleeping dream in that you usually have a feed of live visual fragments and live auditory fragments etc. getting into the mix. otherwise it is the same brain doing layered mind state thing.
Hmm, I think they're massively different, and visual contact with externality influencing entheogenic visions is hardly the key factor - vape enough DMT quickly enough and you can remove that element easily (60mg+). I think maybe the deliriant Solanaceae plants (datura, belladonna) might produce something more akin to a 'waking dream' in terms of the brain doing anything comparable.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: DMT -- symbolism and jungian archetypes [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19404528 - 01/11/14 04:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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CosmicJoke said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: What exactly do you mean by "shadow beings?" The Shadow in Analytical Psychology consists in all those aspects of oneself that are suppressed and repressed into the unconscious. That is to say, all those qualities which are opposite to one's conscious attitudes. So, for example, I am a heterosexual male whose sexual orientation is skewed way up the heterosexual continuum. I have never even momentarily entertained a conscious sexual thought about a male. However, I have met one iteration of suppressed/repressed homosexual tendencies in my dreams, wherein a leather-jacketed hustler is encountered under one of those elevated railways that one might find in Queens, NY where I've seen such structures. The very name 'Queens' further suggests a gay male. Dream characters are always aspects of one's own psyche, they are never who or what they appear to be in real life.
I do not disagree with you that psychedelic experiences allows for unconscious archetypal material to become conscious as archetypal images. I just want to be sure we understand the Jungian Shadow here, and that you are not referring to psychic images of shadowy looking entities. 
I suppose that depends on what you mean by 'encountered' . If I saw a leather-jacketed male hustler in Queens in my dream, personally it would represent the consequences of self-deluded dreams. Maybe he ran away to New York to become an actor without a job lined up and found himself working the streets. I think the real thought suppression occurs after you've woken up. For me, there's a brief window where I actually have to process through my dream to keep it as a memory, before it's lost back in the unconscious. If it's something too disturbing, for better or worse, it can be trashed.
There is no back-story to a character in your dreams. This hustler is a symbolic representation of a constellation of associations that coalesced as this image. My dream-ego is looking at a representation of this constellation of rejected feelings and behaviors. These feelings and behaviors are potentialities in anyone, but in myself they are thoroughly repressed in my conscious life, yet revealed as one iteration of my Shadow. Of course I have other iterations. I have had a recurring dream that has been SO convincing that I really was rattled upon awakening. Those dreams were about someone I had murdered with another person, and buried. In the dream, the forgotten 'memory' became a nightmare theme. I was horrified in my dream AND upon awakening, that I had been a murderer at some point but had forgotten (repressed) the fact. I have been watching the TV show 'Dexter,' sometimes 4 at a clip, and I've sen menaced by him once in my dream, and last night, a semi-erotic dream about the female murderer he falls for. In my conscious life, I am NOT a murderer, but I have the potential to murder, I simply suppress/repress any desire to do so. The Michael C. Hall Dexter character is merely a representation, constructed from TV images, of my own repressed murderer. We don't dream about other people, our unconscious constructs aspects of itself in the guise of other people, real or fictional, that represent those aspects of our own psyche.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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Admittedly, dreams and visions are not identical states of consciousness, yet it is the medium of the unconscious through which the forms emerge, and those forms have psychic infrastructure of archetypes. Archetypes themselves are not visible, but they do give rise to archetypal images, of which abstracts and mandalic shapes are the usual. The characters that you name from Analytical Psychology derive from archetypal themes, may or may not emerge in DMT visions. I think I've had DMT only once a very long time ago, but I've read the accounts in Strassman's books, and just as Heinrich Kluver discovered with Mescaline in the 1920s, there are certain phenomenologies of form that emerge in the DMT experience. ALL experience has archetypal underpinnings. It is the universal structure from which individual differences take form. It's like numbers, although I am more conversant with (English) language. If A to Z represent universals, all the different combinations of these universals are what form individuality. The inner worlds of dream and visions draws from outer sensory experiences, but also from the symbol-making nature of the unconscious, producing the chimeras of mythologies, fairy tales, folklore, dreams, visions, fantasy and science fiction.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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CosmicJoke
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So, when you're awake and you walk by a leather jacketed hustler under a railway, would your normal conscious mind not pick up/generate any reading at all from their emotional state and the atmospheric environment? I mean, is that the difference for you when your dreaming, and your mind generates this drama, as opposed to when something like it is happening in waking life -normally you'd just go on thinking about whatever it is MtG thinks about, repressing emotional data.
Edit: Is it really even that you're repressing emotions/behaviors that are too unacceptable for you to deal with in your waking life, or is it just that your personality type is one that's incredibly self-absorbed with your own mentally generated stimulus, so your mind plays catch up with all the stuff you didn't actively process yet still made an impact on your brain, but only in your sleep .
Edited by CosmicJoke (01/11/14 05:47 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: DMT -- symbolism and jungian archetypes [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19404839 - 01/11/14 05:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think lots of different things go on in dreams. Some, imo are very practical and are about outside people and events but always colored by personal emotionalism. Some are totally about ourselves. Some seem to have almost nothing directly to do with inside or outside present life.
Anecdotally I would say that many of my dreams seem to be about other lives on other worlds.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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CosmicJoke
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Re: DMT -- symbolism and jungian archetypes [Re: Icelander]
#19404912 - 01/11/14 05:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Fairly often I have dreams where I have no dream ego, nothing is happening to me, and I'm not a part of the picture. I'm not even playing the role of somebody else, it's just like watching a film that I've lost myself in.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: DMT -- symbolism and jungian archetypes [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19404996 - 01/11/14 05:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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If my conscious mind evaluated someone as being a hustler, it would probably remain in neutral as I don't feel desirous or averse to his profession. Like any other male encountered in an urban setting, I would simultaneously be evaluating any potential threat to my safety, but that has little direct connection to his role, other than that he belongs to 'street life,' and isn't a doctor, lawyer or Indian chief with a more professional persona. I might find a bar girl attractive and desirable, but I have never purchased sex, and I am married now, so regardless of what emotions might arise during an encounter with a female prostitute, I might not suppress those feelings, but I wouldn't act upon them. Now, when I was hailed by a pretty, long-haired blonde male hustler after a Thanksgiving dinner, while waiting in my car for my ex-wife to come out of the convenience store, I remember the guy commenting on how calm I appeared as he nervously strutted to and fro, flipping his hair back. I responded politely, "Well, I just ate a big Thanksgiving dinner," I said, instead of "well, I don't see anything to get excited about." He WAS a pretty 'boy,' which is something I could see (though not desire), and I knew that HE knew that, but a more emotionally correct response would have been needlessly insulting and sexist. Just because I'm hetero doesn't mean I can't perceive male beauty, but that perception isn't accompanied by sexual attraction. I HAVE been fooled by transvestites on more than one occasion (always embarrassed because everyone I'm with sees immediately), and I HAVE been caught 'looking' at a tall transexual female (Jessica Lam)* by Jessica, who was presenting to all of us Miami-Dade County TRUST Specialists who were the LGBTQ liaisons to our schools. But, my attraction is exclusively to the female form in real life AND in dreams.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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