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OfflineXUL
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Communes and Philosophy
    #19390660 - 01/08/14 09:13 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

I was talking to an old friend who turned all "hippy" and such. He was describing to me a new set of principles he adopted. Some of them seemed so strange to me. He made it clear that his peace would be found when existing in a matriarchal community.

Of course -not to irritate the guy- I debated with him for the sake of critical thinking. And critical thinking always seems to lead to one question. Does my philosophy outweigh yours?

I am not an expert about the history of Anarchism but two of the doctrine's general ideas catch my attention. 'Agreeing to disagree' and an 'eye for an eye'.



What do you think about it?

:trollmove:


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Offlineniteman

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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: XUL]
    #19390951 - 01/08/14 10:18 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

I used to be heavy into the Crimethinc Individualist Anarchy philosophy before I realized it was mostly propaganda. Dont get me wrong it encompasses some very neat ideas but in reality it doeant reallh work for most people and they romanticize it way too much. That said communal living can work for some but I could never live with one person let alone 4-12 other people without tearing my hair out.


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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: niteman]
    #19392396 - 01/09/14 06:13 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

I take it you live alone?


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OfflineViscousGoo
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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: XUL]
    #19392460 - 01/09/14 06:51 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Anarchism and communism are two vastly different things unless you are talking about anarchocommunism....which is a more extreme version of "libertarian left".

What lifestyle was he trying to defend and which were you trying to defend?


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OfflineXUL
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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: ViscousGoo]
    #19392503 - 01/09/14 07:17 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

ViscousGoo said:
Anarchism and communism are two vastly different things unless you are talking about anarchocommunism....which is a more extreme version of "libertarian left".

What lifestyle was he trying to defend and which were you trying to defend?




I am not speaking about communism. I mean a commune as in people with similar beliefs about life who live together. His main thought was a matriarchal society - the belief that women should hold leadership positions and men should be those who execute.

I was not debating against him or for him. I was just debating for the sake of discussion.

And so we boiled down our ideas to the point where the question was: does my philosophy outweigh yours?

That is why I brought up Anarchism. Not because I follow the doctrine, but because I thought a few vague concepts that I associate with anarchism were relevant to our debate. That is, agreeing to disagree, and an eye for an eye. -coexisting.


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Edited by XUL (01/09/14 07:22 AM)


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: XUL]
    #19392567 - 01/09/14 07:50 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Sounds like some Waco shit.

Honestly, we're better off working within the system we've been born into and exposed to. It's some fucked up shit, but it's not going away. It just has too many unthinkers in its grip while possessing a monopoly on violence. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: XUL] * 1
    #19392602 - 01/09/14 08:04 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

did he specifically mention anarchism, or is this your own addition?

to begin, a matriarchal system is still a hierarchical system, albeit one that places women on top rather than men--and if you could ascribe any universal belief to anarchism, it would be an abhorrence towards hierarchies--egalitarian societies are what is strived for

'anarchism' cannot be defined any further than that though--it's not so much that their is a universal doctrine of anarchism--that would make sense--instead, there are innumerable individual anarchists--each with their own foundation of beliefs and principles--but i don't think you are as interested in learning about anarchy as you are in hearing comments on the two ideas you mentioned, and so i will give you my opinion on them:

'agreeing to disagree' isn't really a problem solving tool--it's just an idiom to move on from a meaningless argument (like on an internet forum)--in the actual realm of solving disputes, it provides no options but for both parties to agree that their differences are unresolvable and part ways, or to stay together but with no resolution (or one person, likely the one with more power, arbitrarily applying their solution)--i would say it is an empty phrase, in the realm of commune living

'eye for an eye' is a horrible tool as well--this system is a product of backwards ass thinking from over a couple thousands years ago and would end with revenge killings being traded by and forth by offended parties

if his idea of keeping things civil at the commune is for people to not solve their problems but agree to disagree, and then subtract an eye for an eye--or whatever their perceived loss was--shit would get seriously crazy really fast--i don't think your friend has fully thought this through, or else you have not fully represented his thinking here--and this is coming from an anarchist who is fully down with communal living--when the planets are aligned correctly at least


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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19392636 - 01/09/14 08:21 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

'agreeing to disagree' isn't really a problem solving tool--it's just an idiom to move on from a meaningless argument (like on an internet forum)--in the actual realm of solving disputes, it provides no options but for both parties to agree that their differences are unresolvable and part ways, or to stay together but with no resolution (or one person, likely the one with more power, arbitrarily applying their solution)--i would say it is an empty phrase, in the realm of commune living




I always understood it as a sort of empathy for each other. It seems that whenever I boil down personal philosophies with people that there is only one way to comprehend one another. "Yes, I understand your point of view but I don't agree with it. I believe in my approach and I will follow it."

Conversely, it is hard to claim that agreeing to disagree does not solve problems. Because when personal beliefs are involved is there really anything to solve? Perhaps  agreeing to disagree solved the problem in that clashing minds were put to rest.


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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: XUL]
    #19392646 - 01/09/14 08:30 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

in that sense, i would agree--a debate of this sort doesn't really have a solution, unless someone actually does manage to convince you to abandon your beliefs for their own--agreeing to disagree implies a mutual respect for each others ideas, while still holding firm to your own

i was thinking you were applying those prhases more into how daily life in the commune would be lived--in how problems that would come up every now and then would be solved--who does what work--is everyone pulling their weight--what do we want to eat tonight--so and so isn't respecting me--and things like this, where agreeing to disagree wouldn't do much of anything to solve your problems


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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19392681 - 01/09/14 08:46 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Well, since you are familiar with communes I would like to ask you a question.


What happens when a person commits a crime at a commune? For example, what if people were living together on a farm and one person beat the shit out of another person?

What happens?


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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: XUL]
    #19392711 - 01/09/14 08:59 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

it really depends on the commune--there is no universal set of laws they all follow

it's my guess that a lot of them would simply call the cops if one person beat the shit out of another member--but i wouldn't ever join such a commune that believes in police or jails though

otherwise, a lot of variables can come into play: how long has each person been a member, how well known are they to the rest of us; was the assault justified or not; has this happened before--generally, for something of this severity, it would require a gathering of the entire community (possible when your community is a small commune), at a minimum a punishment will be set (perhaps he must cover the daily job of the person he attack, while the person recovers) or in a more serious case, ostracized from the community for repeatedly violated the core values of the commune

that's part of the value of living in a functional commune--it's a small population of people who personally know one another, and therefore you are able to serve justice on a case by case basis--because every situation really is different, and can require a different response


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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19392810 - 01/09/14 09:33 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

that's part of the value of living in a functional commune--it's a small population of people who personally know one another, and therefore you are able to serve justice on a case by case basis--because every situation really is different, and can require a different response




And what of a more serious offense such as murder?


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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: XUL]
    #19392821 - 01/09/14 09:38 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
I take it you live alone?




Yep :thumbup: except my dogs


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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: niteman]
    #19392868 - 01/09/14 09:50 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Consensus is the general practice of most intentional communities associated with anarchy. If something as serious as murder was committed most would contact the police to be honest there are not practices in place for such a heinius crime. After all most intentional communites are under the authority of their home country or state and they would all be responsible if they didn't report a crime. Your friend reminds seems to be idealistic but underinformed. True anarchy is just that no laws no borders. Anything else is appended and interpretation to fit the needs of a community.


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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: XUL]
    #19392889 - 01/09/14 09:54 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
And what of a more serious offense such as murder?



once again, not sure--still many variables

on the lesser end of the spectrum, i would imagine a form of punishment like before--some attempt to reduce the harms of your actions, while preforming a form of rehabilitation--perhaps they would need to find someone else from the community to vouch for them for a period of time

if we are talking like, serial killer or baby raper or something crazy--i would just say kill them--humanely, and give them a chance to make their case (ie, try to avoid mob lynchings)--but if we are talking about an action that happened within a small community (as i imagine this theoretical commune to be), there would be little doubt left in the end toward whether the person was guilty of this action or not, and i would not feel much qualms in execution


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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: niteman]
    #19392898 - 01/09/14 09:55 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

niteman said:
Consensus is the general practice of most intentional communities associated with anarchy. If something as serious as murder was committed most would contact the police to be honest there are not practices in place for such a heinius crime. After all most intentional communites are under the authority of their home country or state and they would all be responsible if they didn't report a crime. Your friend reminds seems to be idealistic but underinformed. True anarchy is just that no laws no borders. Anything else is appended and interpretation to fit the needs of a community.



this is true, my post above was more theoretical at the end point

if a commune actually started executing it's members, it would likely be shut down by the hosting nation very quickly


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Re: Communes and Philosophy [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19392972 - 01/09/14 10:14 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Interesting stuff guys!

:mushroom2:


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