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InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1956829 - 09/27/03 11:28 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Deforestation isn't such a big issue, the figures have been warped by greenpeace etc. Since 1945 global forest cover has been pretty stable at around 30% of land area.

Please provide these unbiased references of yours. Do those numbers you present include tree farms? Were they published by Maxxam subsidized studies? Most likely. Every statistic that I have studied throughout my career has demonstrated the opposite (and no, they havent been published by "Greenpeace"). Ever seen satetilite imaging of the Amazon past and present? No political bias there, my friend.

Deforestation, especially of rainforests in Latin America and Africa, is a real issue. Is it the end of the world? Of course not, but certainly unsustainable tree harvesting is taking its toil and not something to quickly dismiss.


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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OfflineHidingInPlainSight
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Registered: 01/27/03
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Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: Effed]
    #1957016 - 09/27/03 01:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i fully agree with Terrence. :smile: 


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: Xochitl]
    #1957145 - 09/27/03 02:29 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The sources for that number are the FAO production yearbooks. FAO is the "FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANIZATION OF THE UNITED NATIONS"
Also the FAO's 2001 satellite study concluded that the net tropical deforestation in 2001 was only 0,46%.
Let these people cut their 0,46% if they need it. Logging is often an important source of income for developing countries. If global prosperity continues to rise, these countries will gradually cut less and less forest.

edit:
The number included tree farms yes. A lot of rainforest has been cut, but the cutting has decreased a lot. Even they cut a big deal now, as soon as we stop cutting, the forests will slowly recover again.


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InvisibleBrainFarmer
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 545
Loc: lounging betwixt lobes...
Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: RunDMT]
    #1958678 - 09/28/03 02:16 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Let's say everyone was a vegetarian. The harvesting of crops would kill more animals than the amount that would be required to slaughter if everyone ate meat all the time.




for me, being veg is more about the environment than saving animal lives. producing meat is terribly innefficient. we send food aid to starving nations, and what do they do? they feed it to their animals, rather than eating it themselves. there would be virtually no hunger issues if people simply grew crops for their own consumption. most deforestation is for the purpose of providing cattle with grazing area, or to grow crops that ultimately are fed to animals.

there's no question that an omnivorous diet was once essential to proper nutrition. but now every crop known to man is available to be either cultivated or imported by anyone. there's simply no need for us to consume meat anymore.


BF


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InvisibleBrainFarmer
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #1958744 - 09/28/03 02:53 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I think it's unethical to demand that developing countries do everything to conserve their forests. In the developed countries we cut down most of our own forests centuries ago. This is partly what helped us in becoming so rich. If developing countries can get richer and feed more of their people by cutting down parts of their forests, I think they should do so. There's still more than enough forest, and developing countries will become developed before they lose all their forests.




i don't see how our mistakes justify those of others.

Quote:

If we cut down on our fossil fuel use now, like Kyoto wants us to do, we will be slowing down our economy and technological advancement enormously.




for some reason people seem to think that economic growth is a good thing no matter what. at this point, growing our economy does little more than increase the already obsene power of the economic aristocracy. our markets are bloated with useless BS that does nothing useful. we don't need jet skis or happy meal toys. it doesn't take a 400hp engine, or a Hum-vee to get to work and back.

Quote:

Deforestation isn't such a big issue, the figures have been warped by greenpeace etc. Since 1945 global forest cover has been pretty stable at around 30% of land area.




forests, despite common beleif, really aren't renewable resources. you can't just plant a bunch of trees. a true forest takes centuries, if not millenia to evolve. there's far more involved than just trees. just as a bunch of 10 year olds isn't a society, rows of trees all the same age isn't a forest.

peace
BF


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InvisibleRunDMT
H?L? GH??
Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 16,166
Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #1958859 - 09/28/03 03:55 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Good point.
Yes, the key would be for everyone to grow their own crops.
You won't be seeing me doing that though. Nor will I give up meat... I mean, a bloody rare steak swimming in cognac based sauce can be better than sex. :grin: 


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #1959051 - 09/28/03 05:59 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BrainFarmer said:
i don't see how our mistakes justify those of others.




I don't call cutting parts of your forest down for agriculture and timber to provide for your starving people a mistake.

Quote:

for some reason people seem to think that economic growth is a good thing no matter what. at this point, growing our economy does little more than increase the already obsene power of the economic aristocracy. our markets are bloated with useless BS that does nothing useful. we don't need jet skis or happy meal toys. it doesn't take a 400hp engine, or a Hum-vee to get to work and back.



Economic growth can be a very a good thing. I'm assuming here, that you do have a pretty good income or education. But there are still loads of people in the US and Europe who live in relative poverty. General economic growth usually also brings growth in general prosperety. The economy should at least grow to a point where there is little to no poverty.

Quote:

forests, despite common beleif, really aren't renewable resources. you can't just plant a bunch of trees. a true forest takes centuries, if not millenia to evolve. there's far more involved than just trees. just as a bunch of 10 year olds isn't a society, rows of trees all the same age isn't a forest.



Scientists really aren't sure about that yet. Life and nature seem to be very strong. Forests can and do grow back, it takes time, but it will happen. We think that our rainforests are really really old, but big environmental change isn't something that humans introduced to the world. Millions of years ago rainforests used to be much larger than they were when humans were still apes. Climates and environments change, but nature is strong and survives, if we don't push it too far.

Unreasonal environmentalists like greenpeace can really piss me of sometime. Very rich western people, telling devolping countries not to exploit their own recources to feed their people, because they find the trees and animals more important.
You know that environmental groups convinced the starving country Zambia to reject genetically modified food aid. This is food that everbody in the US is eating. Because all American corn is mixed, with about 30 percent genetically modified, and that all U.S. citizens, have been eating the mixture for six years without ill effects.


-Peace and prosperity for all


--------------------
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OfflineHarvestTheBrain
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Registered: 07/14/03
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Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1959197 - 09/28/03 09:24 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i dont know about you guys, but i definetly dont want to eat any kind of genetically altered/grown produce, fuck that shit, grow your own food and support yourselves!


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: HarvestTheBrain]
    #1959219 - 09/28/03 10:05 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

No offence, but that's a truly ignorant statement. If you live in America, then you're already eating it. GM food isn't harmful to health. Research the subject and you'll know that greenpeace is just propagating horror stories about it. GM food is checked thoroughly before being put on the market.
Just like people saying I want natural vitamin C, not factory made. It's all just chemicals. Even the food that hasn't been directly genetically modified IS genetically modified. We have bred cows and plants for ages, slowly changing their genome to better suit our needs. GM is just a faster way of achieving the same.

Growing your own food can be nice and all. But if everybody were to grow their own food, then we wouldn't have enough farming space. Then we would have to cut down all the forests. That's because you need big efficient farms to get the yield up. Higher yield means less space is required.
GM is a way to enormously boost the yield of plants and even animals. Thus requiring less space, which means less pressure on our valuable forests.


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OfflineJackolantern
Will'o'Wisp

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 42
Loc: The Great White Hype
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1960771 - 09/28/03 09:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The first step is to get rid of victimless crime. The next is to eliminate that fat slug of authority called "the police."


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Invisibletripndicular
My Minds Eye IsRhizomorphic

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 2,791
Loc: Bowels of HELL
Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: Effed]
    #1960805 - 09/28/03 09:32 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I do agree , we the human species are very destructive by nature . BUT Mother Earth will always heal herself , even if it means the extinction of US . Just a theory ...
Once upon a time Green house effect is what created the environment mamalls thrive in . :wink:
PS sorry for misspells in a rush 


--------------------
Any information I give is not intended to aide you in the production of potentialy illegal substances !None of my exp comes from growing illegal varities , so take it as you will .
So with that said here is our mission statement .

Then the priest fell into a trance or swoon,& said unto the Queen of heaven ; Write unto us the ordeals; write unto us the rituals; write unto us the law !


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InvisibleBrainFarmer
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1961712 - 09/29/03 03:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Economic growth can be a very a good thing. I'm assuming here, that you do have a pretty good income or education. But there are still loads of people in the US and Europe who live in relative poverty. General economic growth usually also brings growth in general prosperety. The economy should at least grow to a point where there is little to no poverty.




:lol:  you assume wrong, my friend.  i have a GED and a couple of college credits, and i make less than $15,000 US per year.  the problem is in the distribution of the wealth, not the amount.  there's more than enough to go around, but the rich don't seem to agree.

Quote:

You know that environmental groups convinced the starving country Zambia to reject genetically modified food aid. This is food that everbody in the US is eating. Because all American corn is mixed, with about 30 percent genetically modified, and that all U.S. citizens, have been eating the mixture for six years without ill effects.




6 years just isn't a sufficient test run, although i personally would rather eat GMO than chemical doused produce.  the main concern for me with GMO is, what if some of these artificial genes make their way into non-cultivated organisms.  unleashing human enhanced weed species could be very problematic.

peace
BF


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InvisibleBrainFarmer
Farmicist

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 545
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Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1961714 - 09/29/03 03:23 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Just like people saying I want natural vitamin C, not factory made. It's all just chemicals.




i've read that natural vitamin C is in fact far more effective than synthetic. i know that this doesn't make any sense as far as current scientific understanding is concerned, so i will post my source as soon as i find it.

edit: i'm to tired to search anymore tonight, but the notion was referenced in a book called "The Living Energy Universe." definately to be taken with a grain or two or salt, but the idea is that information is stored within all energy/matter and that this info-energy can effect the physical properties of the systems in which its contained. several excellent examples are given which make the idea at least worthy of further investigation, IMHO.

BF


--------------------
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Edited by BrainFarmer (09/29/03 03:52 AM)


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Offlinecaolite
Ambient Drone

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Second star on the right.
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Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: tripndicular]
    #1961715 - 09/29/03 03:23 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

First off, one thing that always annoys me (even though it might have little or no relevance here) is when people are ethical vegetarians based on not wanting to kill an animal. I feel like plants deserve just as much respect and you kill them to eat as well. If I ever were to be a vegetarian, it would be for health reasons or for one of the interesting points brought up above about it being inefficient to grow and maintain livestock. However I must say that I enjoy meat and would continue to eat it no matter what.

I also feel like the population is like a glass of water under a faucet. It can only hold so much until it fills and spills over the sides. There are only so many people that are allowed to live at any one time, I don't think we could technically overpopulate the earth, because the more people there are, the more wars, the more disease, the more death there is. *shrugs* The earth would never ever allow us to destroy it. I think the funniest part about environmentalist is the fact that they don't give the earth they claim to love so much enough credit. If the human race becomes a problem, up pops a new disease found deep within a rain forest, there goes a couple 1000. Whats that you say?... Medicine now allows us to live longer and allows more healthy births. *SMASH* Well there goes the trade towers, 1000's more dead (I think lol, I cant recall the number) all a result of various group expansion and conflict.


These might be extreme examples, but it illustrates my point. I do agree with everything in the original post though for the most part. I would do it. I just wish we could convince everyone at the same time. It is too bad there can't be this moment where every television, radio, and whatever is hijacked, and we announce to the people, that now is the time to rise, combine, if you believe in this, if you want your voices heard come together, because a bunch of people sitting around and bitching about how much they hate whats going on, don't get anything done. When they could, if they would get up, say fuck all this comfort that is keeping me glued to my TV. For example if every person in the world who believed in the end of prohibition all massed on one spot and demanded to be heard, either they would have to listen to us, or we would all be killed. I don't think they could get away with killing that many people... it just would not happen, because if you killed all of us, then surely they would have to kill more than just us, because I know there are people who don't believe in the end of prohibition, that would still object to the mass slaying of millions of people.

We need to do something, seriously, we need to get up off our asses. Of course it is so hard, because of how organized crime effects drugs (being illegal and all). I know it can complicate things. This is just an example. If the said same amount of people believed in honestly making life better and enjoyable for every single person on the planet, then things could maybe happen. Unfortunately everyones idea on what is best is slightly to completely different. Conflict happens, which sucks. I mean, how are you going to convince the people on the 700club this is the way to go?


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InvisibleBrainFarmer
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: caolite]
    #1961757 - 09/29/03 03:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

First off, one thing that always annoys me (even though it might have little or no relevance here) is when people are ethical vegetarians based on not wanting to kill an animal. I feel like plants deserve just as much respect and you kill them to eat as well.




certainly, eating animals is a natural thing for many species. however, subjecting our animals to the kinds of tortuous conditions of a feedlot is unnatural and obsene. these creatures have a CNS just like us. they experience pain and emotion. it's not the death of animals that concerns me, its the sort of life they must endure nowadays that really gets my panties into a bunch.

BTW- what flick is the pic in your sig from?

BF


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OfflineJdawg2013
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Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #1961799 - 09/29/03 04:51 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I wish I would have known Terence's timewave has been disproven mathematically... it drove me insane during a few trips 'knowing' that history was going to end December 2012.


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #1962035 - 09/29/03 07:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

you assume wrong, my friend. i have a GED and a couple of college credits, and i make less than $15,000 US per year. the problem is in the distribution of the wealth, not the amount. there's more than enough to go around, but the rich don't seem to agree.



Well, you don't live in poverty, and you probably have a good income ahead of you.
I know there's more than enough wealth. But most rich people just won't share. So equal distribution of wealth is not a real option. I can't imagine more than half of the Americans voting a left-wing party in the foreseeable future.
So the other option is for the general prosperety to rise, which lifts the poor people above the poverty line.
Quote:

6 years just isn't a sufficient test run, although i personally would rather eat GMO than chemical doused produce. the main concern for me with GMO is, what if some of these artificial genes make their way into non-cultivated organisms. unleashing human enhanced weed species could be very problematic.



You insinuate that the food which has been sprayed is bad for us because chemicals have been used. This 'chemical doused produce' (which is a severe overstatement, because the chemicals are used in low and regulated quantaties) is the same food that has made the genral western population live so long and healthy.
As for GM traits spreading through natural plants and mutating them, there's not much reason why that should happen. Most of these GM plants have very specific traits like resistance to a pesticide or a very high yield. These traits won't benifit weeds because they don't come into contact with pesticides. And the high yield trait in a plant is only effective if it also has a fertilizer supply, which natural plants don't have. All these GM plants are also examined thoroughly before being allowed into nature. Some are even made to be infertile so they can't spread.

Quote:

i've read that natural vitamin C is in fact far more effective than synthetic



IMHO you can't quote 'facts' from a book with a title like "The Living Energy Universe". This is all just hypothetical and unfounded psuedo-science.


If you have the time and want to read something about how the work of one of the greatest people alive today has constantly been halted by environmental scum. Read this:
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/97jan/borlaug/borlaug.htm
It's about Norman Borlaug who most people have never heard of. Through the increase of farming yields he has saved the lives of hundreds of millions of people in third world countries. He wants to use superyield plant strains and chemicals and fertilizers (in moderation) in all third world countries. The main reason is to feed all the hungry people. But as a positive result, high yield crops don't require much soil, so they will release pressure on the tropical forests. They can also help the country to become richer and more advanced.
But because chemicals are a naughty word in the eyes of Greenpeace and other scum, they have hindered Norman's progress for years.

This sounds awfully familiar to just saying: "All drugs are bad M'kay" without considering the full picture.
The enormous benifits that chemical and fertilizer use can have for the people and nature, easily weighs up to the slight toxicity of these compounds when they have been dispersed.


--------------------
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InvisibleBrainFarmer
Farmicist

Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1962085 - 09/29/03 08:21 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You insinuate that the food which has been sprayed is bad for us because chemicals have been used. This 'chemical doused produce' (which is a severe overstatement, because the chemicals are used in low and regulated quantaties) is the same food that has made the genral western population live so long and healthy.




I, personally, am allergic to some of the chemicals used in modern agriculture. certain fruits and vegetables will give my a nasty burning/itchy sensation in my mouth and throat, and if cunsumed in sufficient quantity i get a very unpleasant pain in the pit of my stomach. this doesn't happen with organic produce. so in my case anyways, this is no overstatement. also, i think modern medicine has a lot more to do with the health/longetivity of western populations than the size of our apples.

Quote:

IMHO you can't quote 'facts' from a book with a title like "The Living Energy Universe". This is all just hypothetical and unfounded psuedo-science.




what i mentioned was something that was quoted IN the book, from another source unrelated to the authors of the book. i'm certainly not here to defend a couple of psychologists who think their qualified to write about physics. their theories were hokey and wishful in many ways, however the evidence they supplied was quite intrigueing. if i find the actual source of the vitamin C reference i'll post it.


BF


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #1962542 - 09/29/03 01:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Modern medicine has a smaller role than you'd think. There are a lot of people now, who get really old and almost never need a doctor visit, until they are old and get cancer. Our high quality and cheap food really has a lot to do with it.
Your allergy says nothing about the toxicity and harm of the chemicals used in agriculture. There are also people with nut allegry, that doesn't make nuts bad.

BTW, that pic in caolite's sig is from the Animatrix. The ?haunted? house short.


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InvisibleBrainFarmer
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Re: | Plan | Plant | Planet | [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1963012 - 09/29/03 04:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

There are a lot of people now, who get really old and almost never need a doctor visit, until they are old and get cancer.




yes, however these people were no doubt given a battery of vaccinations as children, preventing some of the most common causes of death.  i have a hard time believing that vaccination, blood transfusion, anti-piretics, vitamin supplements, and antibiotics could take a back seat to oversized produce.  this is something i'll have to research when i get a chance.  please give sources if possible.

in any case, this has been a good debate.  you've argued the status quo without making a fool of yourself (not easy to do :wink: )


BF 


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