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OfflinePatlal
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Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours)
    #19387522 - 01/08/14 11:17 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

How could we possibly make the humans have better genes without the process of eliminating those with bad genes?

I've been reading some Richard Dawkins ans he proposed an extremely intelligent way of doing so. It would be extremely hard to implement, but it is plausible.

The easy answer: Nobody becomes a parent before the age of 40.

The principle of this is very simple. We all have a copious amounts of genes and DNA in our body, the thing is, we don't know whether they are good or bad until we get sick and die young or die old old age. If you prevent everybody from having kids before they reach the age of 40, everybody carrying bad genes that help develop deadly diseases at a young age would die before they have a chance of reproducing. That way, they wouldn't spread the gene and eventually, it would be taken out of the equation. Dawkins claimed that if this were implemented worldwide, the average lifespan of human could be well into the 100s of years old. Healthy individual would reproduce.

Of course some will inevitably die at 41 years old after they had kids, but that only means that the kid will be at a higher risk of contracting the same disease only in his forties. If he contracts it earlier, he won't reproduce.

Doing this would greatly reduce the chance of dying from a disease before you get to 40. Whether its cancer, heart attacks or another disease.

Food for thought, yet again, discuss.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19387529 - 01/08/14 11:19 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

hmmm, i could see the advent of 3d printing having an impact on this. it might get to the point where people can just design and make their own drugs for a low cost. regardless of legality, that would take genetic design to the next level...it doesn't all have to be eugenics and birth control, i think anyone who has done psychedelics knows that certain substances surely effect your DNA long after conception? 

actually there is already a game/sim program where people design their own molecules so seems like this is in the works.


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Invisibletrekie
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behavior's) [Re: Patlal] * 2
    #19387548 - 01/08/14 11:23 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

This is a terrible idea . Women over 40 even with IVF have a hard time conceiving and even harder time carrying to term.

Also there have been some studies saying rates of autism and other mentally  conditions increase as you get older.


Im all for Eugenics we do it to animals all the time. The way you suggest just wouldn't be good.

Now if we only let the smartest more fit people have kids thats fine with me.

I think anyone on welfare ( long term) should be rendered infertile


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OfflineKremrBigSikter
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #19387550 - 01/08/14 11:23 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
How could we possibly make the humans have better genes without the process of eliminating those with bad genes?

I've been reading some Richard Dawkins ans he proposed an extremely intelligent way of doing so. It would be extremely hard to implement, but it is plausible.

The easy answer: Nobody becomes a parent before the age of 40.

The principle of this is very simple. We all have a copious amounts of genes and DNA in our body, the thing is, we don't know whether they are good or bad until we get sick and die young or die old old age. If you prevent everybody from having kids before they reach the age of 40, everybody carrying bad genes that help develop deadly diseases at a young age would die before they have a chance of reproducing. That way, they wouldn't spread the gene and eventually, it would be taken out of the equation. Dawkins claimed that if this were implemented worldwide, the average lifespan of human could be well into the 100s of years old. Healthy individual would reproduce.

Of course some will inevitably die at 41 years old after they had kids, but that only means that the kid will be at a higher risk of contracting the same disease only in his forties. If he contracts it earlier, he won't reproduce.

Doing this would greatly reduce the chance of dying from a disease before you get to 40. Whether its cancer, heart attacks or another disease.

Food for thought, yet again, discuss.



Women over 40 have a much higher risk of their children getting down syndrome.

I propose that all humans get a little reversible tube-tie device implanted when they're young, and they have to use their wits to figure out a way to become fertile. Like a puzzle game! Everyone loves puzzles! Except for meatheads, so they'll die out.


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Offlineberdinwall
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: KremrBigSikter]
    #19387573 - 01/08/14 11:29 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

eh...why try to rush evolution?


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: berdinwall]
    #19387581 - 01/08/14 11:31 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

berdinwall said:
eh...why try to rush evolution?




Because we finally figured out how!


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: KremrBigSikter] * 1
    #19387584 - 01/08/14 11:31 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Wait, Dawkins proposed this?

One huge problem with having kids that late is the rage of birth defects goes though the roof. For example, women in their forties have a much higher chance of having kids with Down's syndrome and the rate of autism increases with the age of the father.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19387587 - 01/08/14 11:32 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

I was expecting the pregnancy trouble comments. It is true that older women tend to have more complications, perhaps men should wait until 40 and women until 35.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: koods]
    #19387600 - 01/08/14 11:34 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Wait, Dawkins proposed this?

One huge problem with having kids that late is the rage of birth defects goes though the roof. For example, women in their forties have a much higher chance of having kids with Down's syndrome and the rate of autism increases with the age of the father.




You talk as if 50% of the babies will have a serious disease. WHich isn;t the case.

Plus when you think about it, the affected babies will either die early of not reproduce at all, therefore only the healthiest will reach the age of reproduction, which will in term reduce the complication of older pregnancy.

EDIT: Also, we know how to spot Downs syndrome early during the pregnancy. If its the case, wash it out, start over.


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Edited by Patlal (01/08/14 11:36 AM)


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OfflineKingKnowledge
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19387603 - 01/08/14 11:35 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

There's no right way to Eugenics.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: KingKnowledge]
    #19387624 - 01/08/14 11:40 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
There's no right way to Eugenics.




Sure.  Just call it "genetic counseling centers". 

http://www.cornell.edu/video/evolution-eugenics-and-beyond


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19387631 - 01/08/14 11:41 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Check this out. Rate of Down's syndrome per birth by age, second is rate of all trisomy chromosome defects. One in ten in your late forties is pretty significant.

Code:
20	1 in 1,667	 1 in 526
25 1 in 1,250 1 in 476
30 1 in 952 1 in 384
35 1 in 385 1 in 192
40 1 in 106 1 in 66
41 1 in 82 1 in 53
42 1 in 64 1 in 42
43 1 in 50 1 in 33
44 1 in 38 1 in 26
45 1 in 30 1 in 21
46 1 in 23 1 in 16
47 1 in 18 1 in 13
48 1 in 14 1 in 10



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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19387643 - 01/08/14 11:44 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

koods said:
Wait, Dawkins proposed this?

One huge problem with having kids that late is the rage of birth defects goes though the roof. For example, women in their forties have a much higher chance of having kids with Down's syndrome and the rate of autism increases with the age of the father.




You talk as if 50% of the babies will have a serious disease. WHich isn;t the case.

Plus when you think about it, the affected babies will either die early of not reproduce at all, therefore only the healthiest will reach the age of reproduction, which will in term reduce the complication of older pregnancy.

EDIT: Also, we know how to spot Downs syndrome early during the pregnancy. If its the case, wash it out, start over.




Tell that to the people who think their little retard is a gift from god.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: koods]
    #19387721 - 01/08/14 11:48 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

koods said:
Wait, Dawkins proposed this?

One huge problem with having kids that late is the rage of birth defects goes though the roof. For example, women in their forties have a much higher chance of having kids with Down's syndrome and the rate of autism increases with the age of the father.




You talk as if 50% of the babies will have a serious disease. WHich isn;t the case.

Plus when you think about it, the affected babies will either die early of not reproduce at all, therefore only the healthiest will reach the age of reproduction, which will in term reduce the complication of older pregnancy.

EDIT: Also, we know how to spot Downs syndrome early during the pregnancy. If its the case, wash it out, start over.




Tell that to the people who think their little retard is a gift from god.




Nowadays, I think poeple are more inclined to listen to their doctors when something is wrong with their babies., it is true that some of them will survive. Then again, i'm sure the pregnancy level of people with Downs syndrome is pretty low.

And yes Dawkins mentioned it in his most popular book (The Selfish Gene) that he wrote in 1976. But don't worry, he revised it in 2006 and he put asterisks next to the points that have been proven wrong and promptly corrected himself in the endnotes (he didn't even try to defend himself when he spotted mistakes). There was no asterisk next to the 40 year old reproduction cycle so therefore he read it back in 2006 and still thought it to be true. I haven't seen him correcting himself on the subject either.


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Offlineseadragon
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19387810 - 01/08/14 11:53 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

BLAMSEMPY BLAMSEMPY!!!!!!!
MAKING A WOMAN PREGNANT IN THE GRATEST SIN OF DEM ALL


BLAMSEMPY


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InvisibleFrozenHappiness
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: LunarEclipse] * 1
    #19387880 - 01/08/14 12:10 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Outside of a GATTACA type scenario, where we have figured out exactly which genes and genetic sequences do what, and can reliably manipulate them there will always be evolutionary trade offs no matter if there is artificial selection, like in eugenics. Or natural selection, like what happens in the wild.

By gaining some of the characteristics that you have been selecting for, you end up loosing some other important characteristics that benefit the fitness of the organism.

Look at domesticated plants and animals. Domesticated animals have mainly been bred for size, docility. By breeding them this way, and selecting for characteristics that we deem desirable they end up loosing some of their instincts, intelligence, fertility and fecundity. In short many domesticated animals loose the ability to make it on their own in the wild.

Domesticated plants have been bred mainly for increased yields. Now they have almost no ability to compete in the natural world and require consistent human intervention to persist.

This also applies to humans. By selecting for one, or even a few desirable traits in humans you will end up loosing other desirable traits. Say you focus mainly on intelligence. Then you may loose some vitality, or life span, or fertility, or resilience.

Focus on longevity, or immunity to disease, and you may loose intelligence or who knows.

By artificially deciding who can breed when, or who can breed at all, or even who survives you are altering a whole host of unseen things that will likely have huge consequences a generation or two down the line. In evolution there are always trade offs.

The biggest thing we have going for us as a species, evolutionarily speaking, is the size of our global population and our great diversity. Genetic diversity is key. When the shit hits the fan, and we run have far out grown carrying capacity there will be a great die off.  In theory the healthiest, smartest, most resourceful of us will survive. Of course that isn't exactly true, given the distribution of wealth and other social factors-- but that is another topic for another thread.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: FrozenHappiness] * 1
    #19387905 - 01/08/14 12:15 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

So called bad genes are complicated. Think of something like sickle cell anemia. Bad disease if you inherit the gene from both parents, but if you only inherit from one parent, you have a natural immunity to Malaria.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: FrozenHappiness]
    #19387922 - 01/08/14 12:19 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

FrozenHappiness said:
Outside of a GATTACA type scenario, where we have figured out exactly which genes and genetic sequences do what, and can reliably manipulate them there will always be evolutionary trade offs no matter if there is artificial selection, like in eugenics. Or natural selection, like what happens in the wild.

By gaining some of the characteristics that you have been selecting for, you end up loosing some other important characteristics that benefit the fitness of the organism.

Look at domesticated plants and animals. Domesticated animals have mainly been bred for size, docility. By breeding them this way, and selecting for characteristics that we deem desirable they end up loosing some of their instincts, intelligence, fertility and fecundity. In short many domesticated animals loose the ability to make it on their own in the wild.

Domesticated plants have been bred mainly for increased yields. Now they have almost no ability to compete in the natural world and require consistent human intervention to persist.

This also applies to humans. By selecting for one, or even a few desirable traits in humans you will end up loosing other desirable traits. Say you focus mainly on intelligence. Then you may loose some vitality, or life span, or fertility, or resilience.

Focus on longevity, or immunity to disease, and you may loose intelligence or who knows.

By artificially deciding who can breed when, or who can breed at all, or even who survives you are altering a whole host of unseen things that will likely have huge consequences a generation or two down the line. In evolution there are always trade offs.

The biggest thing we have going for us as a species, evolutionarily speaking, is the size of our global population and our great diversity. Genetic diversity is key. When the shit hits the fan, and we run have far out grown carrying capacity there will be a great die off.  In theory the healthiest, smartest, most resourceful of us will survive. Of course that isn't exactly true, given the distribution of wealth and other social factors-- but that is another topic for another thread.





Good point of view. Then again, were are not manipulating any genes at all, we are simply delaying reproduction. Therefore nothing has changed except that the ones who carry early onset disease don't get to reproduce if they don't survive.

Now off course, some of these people might carry extremely good genes. They might have been geniuses that fell victim to a heart attack at a young age. So technically he hasn't spread his early onset diseased genes AND his superior intelligence. BUT! Since we are already 7 billion people on the planet, his highly intelligent gene is probably shared by millions of other human on earth. Genes are virtually immortal. Perhaps the gene he inherited comes from his granfather from 3000BC. If the guy had 3 kids and they had 3 kids too, then the gene is pratically everywhere. By setting an age for reproduction, the genes that will end up elimiated has to be the diseased ones. The rest will continu to spread.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: koods]
    #19387940 - 01/08/14 12:23 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
So called bad genes are complicated. Think of something like sickle cell anemia. Bad disease if you inherit the gene from both parents, but if you only inherit from one parent, you have a natural immunity to Malaria.




Extremely complicted. A single gene does asolutely nothing. it needs a large group of other genes to be able to build a body. The problem is that within that group, unwanted genes slip in. The problem is, we don't know of their presence until they show themselves years later as a health problem. That's why if we wait a few years to make sure they aren't present in the body, we can safely and gradually begin to eliminate them.

Of course, the late acting problematic genes still spread like wildfire, but you can't control everything. Past a certain age, women can't have kids, so its better to have a kid with a late acting diseased gene than no kids at all.


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: koods]
    #19387948 - 01/08/14 12:25 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

This is stupid. This won't work.

In nature natural selection prunes genetically physical weakness, as well as provides benefit for smarter animals to survive as well.

This idea only will produce people who live longer, not smarter or more physically sound. Eugenics is more about creating a smarter more physically adept humans.

I am in favour of eugenics, but this idea sucks. The last thing we need is longer living humans that arent necessarily smarter/physically stronger. The population is already becoming an issue, this would make it worse.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #19387955 - 01/08/14 12:26 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

There is no right way to do eugenics. It's impossible to tell what genes may or may not be helpful in the future, especially because we don't even fully understand the functionality of the vast majority of genes.

Further, eugenics is a cruel denial of personal freedoms. You might as well be suggesting that free speech is something that we should give up because it would make a better society. No one has the right to tell others who they can and can't have children with, and when etc.

Imagine if the government came into your home and told you that it decided that you can't have children. Forget death panels, you're talking about birth panels, a bunch of government idiots in suits sitting around deciding who can and can't have children. That's the fucking future you're proposing with eugenics.

You know what happens in China when someone has a child without the government's permission? The child is killed (or given to someone else), and the mother has her tubes tied. Imagine that happening to your wife and child.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19387958 - 01/08/14 12:27 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

People fall apart once they are past the age where they can reproduce successfully - your selfish genes have no more use for their squishy organic protective shell we call bodies.


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NotSheekle said
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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19387961 - 01/08/14 12:28 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
This is stupid. This won't work.

In nature natural selection prunes genetically physical weakness, as well as provides benefit for smarter animals to survive as well.

This idea only will produce people who live longer, not smarter or more physically sound. Eugenics is more about creating a smarter more physically adept humans.

I am in favour of eugenics, but this idea sucks. The last thing we need is longer living humans that arent necessarily smarter/physically stronger. The population is already becoming an issue, this would make it worse.




Where did I mention that we would eliminate the intelligence is physical strenght? When the guy reaches 40, if he smart and strong and hasn't died of a disease, he spread his genes. If he happens to be weak and stupid, he might still carry valuable genes such as a strong liver and good eyesight.

The only factor discriminated upon in my example are those who die an early death.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: nooneman]
    #19387967 - 01/08/14 12:30 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
There is no right way to do eugenics. It's impossible to tell what genes may or may not be helpful in the future, especially because we don't even fully understand the functionality of the vast majority of genes.

Further, eugenics is a cruel denial of personal freedoms. You might as well be suggesting that free speech is something that we should give up because it would make a better society. No one has the right to tell others who they can and can't have children with, and when etc.

Imagine if the government came into your home and told you that it decided that you can't have children. Forget death panels, you're talking about birth panels, a bunch of government idiots in suits sitting around deciding who can and can't have children. That's the fucking future you're proposing with eugenics.

You know what happens in China when someone has a child without the government's permission? The child is killed (or given to someone else), and the mother has her tubes tied. Imagine that happening to your wife and child.




Where did I mention that the government would have a say on who lives or dies?

Those who survive to 40 can reproduce. Those who die before they reach 40 can't, cause you know, there're dead and stuff.


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InvisibleFrozenHappiness
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: koods]
    #19387968 - 01/08/14 12:30 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Delyaing reproduction is still manipulating genes though. By delaying reproduction many organism that would have otherwise reproduced would not. You end up manipulating genes at the population level.
The practice essentialy becomes an evolutionary bottleneck, and many unique alleles will inevitably be lost which lowers genetic diversity for our speices, which could potentially lower the overall fitness of our species.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: FrozenHappiness]
    #19387995 - 01/08/14 12:39 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

FrozenHappiness said:
Delyaing reproduction is still manipulating genes though. By delaying reproduction many organism that would have otherwise reproduced would not. You end up manipulating genes at the population level.
The practice essentialy becomes an evolutionary bottleneck, and many unique alleles will inevitably be lost which lowers genetic diversity for our speices, which could potentially lower the overall fitness of our species.




We already have 7 billion individuals. Every allele is spread out already. Plus these alleles will simply join one another and create other stable chromosomes. WHy would it create a bottleneck? Wouldn't reproducing at 20 year old create that same bottleneck except 20 years earlier?


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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19388004 - 01/08/14 12:40 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

You can pretend it's about the future of humanity, OP, but it's really that nobody wants to have your baby.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: koods]
    #19388032 - 01/08/14 12:48 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
You can pretend it's about the future of humanity, OP, but it's really that nobody wants to have your baby.




I've been thinking about it and I have multiple reasons not to have a baby. The odds are that he will inherit some of my defaults which could seriously affect his future.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19388077 - 01/08/14 01:00 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
The odds are that he will inherit some of my defaults which
could seriously affect his future.




thats no reason not to have a baby. you don't have to be perfect to be the perfect parent  :durrhurr:


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InvisibleFrozenHappiness
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: FrozenHappiness]
    #19388091 - 01/08/14 01:03 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Every allele isn't spread out evenly though. Some are more rare than others. Many are endemic to particular regions/populations. Some alleles are beneficial in some certian situations, and are detrimental in others. The sickle cell allele is the most famouse example.

Edit: Reproduction at 20 yrs doesn't create a bottleneck because there is variation in our life history. Some of us reproduce at 12, 15, 20, 25, 30, ect. years of age. If a restriction was placed that only allowed reproduction at 20 then yes that would create a bottleneck too, but as it stands that isn't the case.

It is true that our population is more than big enough  and diverse enough currently, I am by no means advocating there be even more people on this planet, and thus I refuse to breed, but artificial selection will lead to a whole host of unintended consequences. There will be trade-offs, by selecting for a trait, or even a set of traits you inevitably select against other traits.

Using this system it is very likely that only a (relatively) very small number of populations, or even more likely a very small subset of a very small number of populations, will be able fertile and fecund enough produce pleanty of viable offspring.

Many populations will be greatly reduced or go extinct immediately. Many more may go after a couple of generations.

And then you can run into the peculiar issues of a less diverse gene pool. Inbreeding depression, loss of heterozygosity, and the fixing of recessive alleles


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Edited by FrozenHappiness (01/08/14 01:20 PM)


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19388211 - 01/08/14 01:31 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
This is stupid. This won't work.

In nature natural selection prunes genetically physical weakness, as well as provides benefit for smarter animals to survive as well.

This idea only will produce people who live longer, not smarter or more physically sound. Eugenics is more about creating a smarter more physically adept humans.

I am in favour of eugenics, but this idea sucks. The last thing we need is longer living humans that arent necessarily smarter/physically stronger. The population is already becoming an issue, this would make it worse.




Where did I mention that we would eliminate the intelligence is physical strenght? When the guy reaches 40, if he smart and strong and hasn't died of a disease, he spread his genes. If he happens to be weak and stupid, he might still carry valuable genes such as a strong liver and good eyesight.

The only factor discriminated upon in my example are those who die an early death.





All your idea is doing is creating a human that lives longer, not a stronger human. We dont need longer living people, which will increase total global population. We need smarter and physically stronger humans.

If anything your plan would harm the human race. Women after 40 have much higher rates of infertility, miscarriage and birth defects. Also, evolution also favours a faster reproduction cycle. Organisms with quick reproduction cycles are normally much more adaptable. Makes sense, there is more generations in a given time period, there is higher chance of beneficial traits.

This idea of yours seems like it would hurt more than it would help. I dont think you understand eugenics, it is about working with our genetics, not against them. Humans arent meant to breed that late, they hit their prime much earlier. Why would forcing us to bear children past our prime help anything?

If anything the ideal human would live shorter than it does now. Live to maybe 55-60, and then die off quickly. This would ensure quicker turnaround time in generations, as well as free up resources that are consumed by the elderly. These resources would be better off nurturing the current working generation, and the upcoming generation. This would be of more benefit.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19388291 - 01/08/14 01:49 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

For arguments sake, lets assume humans reach reproductive age at 15.

How many people die from an inherited genetic disease between the age of 15-40?

I'd assume the number is pretty darn low, so making people wait until 40 to have kids is unlikely to "weed out" any undesirable traits.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Edited by badchad (01/08/14 01:49 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19388382 - 01/08/14 02:13 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

koods said:
You can pretend it's about the future of humanity, OP, but it's really that nobody wants to have your baby.




I've been thinking about it and I have multiple reasons not to have a baby. The odds are that he will inherit some of my defaults which could seriously affect his future.




Default lol. Being Canadian isn't a genetic trait.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #19388397 - 01/08/14 02:19 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

This is retarded. Dawkins is retarded. There's countless things wrong with this "intelligent" suggestion.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19388463 - 01/08/14 02:35 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
This is retarded. Dawkins is retarded. There's countless things wrong with this "intelligent" suggestion.




Dawkins has been elected to be one of the best thinker of his generation.

Of course there are things wrong with this discussion. Otherwise there would be no discussion. If I posted that 2+2=4, the thread would have died. You need a tad bit of controversy to create something interesting.

But of course, everybody except you is retarded right?


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19388478 - 01/08/14 02:41 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Yes, Dawkins the greatest thinker of all time because because he pointed out how ridiculous a fuckin fairy tale is. The rest of his observations are either simple restatings of shit he played no part in discovering or books aimed at children.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19388534 - 01/08/14 02:52 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Yes, Dawkins the greatest thinker of all time because because he pointed out how ridiculous a fuckin fairy tale is. The rest of his observations are either simple restatings of shit he played no part in discovering or books aimed at children.




And what exactly have you done that gives you the right to critique Dawkins?


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19388605 - 01/08/14 03:06 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Yes, Dawkins the greatest thinker of all time because because he pointed out how ridiculous a fuckin fairy tale is. The rest of his observations are either simple restatings of shit he played no part in discovering or books aimed at children.



His selfish gene theory is regarded as one of the great leaps in understanding Darwinian evolutionary biology.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19388609 - 01/08/14 03:07 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

I wasn't aware critiquing someone required credentials.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19388621 - 01/08/14 03:09 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
I wasn't aware critiquing someone required credentials.




Now you know.


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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19388627 - 01/08/14 03:10 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

His book "Unweaving the Rainbow" , which is about how spectrum analysis has been the cornerstone of understanding the natural world, is fucking amazing.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: koods]
    #19388647 - 01/08/14 03:13 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Yes, Dawkins the greatest thinker of all time because because he pointed out how ridiculous a fuckin fairy tale is. The rest of his observations are either simple restatings of shit he played no part in discovering or books aimed at children.



His selfish gene theory is regarded as one of the great leaps in understanding Darwinian evolutionary biology.




What about it was a great leap forward?


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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19388687 - 01/08/14 03:22 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Previous concepts of natural selection focused on the fitness of individual organisms, where as the selfish gene theory says that the individual organism is not as important as the genome he/she carries. It's not about which species or organism can adapt/survive but the actual genetic code they carry.

From an amazon review. They say it better:
Quote:

Inheriting the mantle of revolutionary biologist from Darwin, Watson, and Crick, Richard Dawkins forced an enormous change in the way we see ourselves and the world with the publication of The Selfish Gene. Suppose, instead of thinking about organisms using genes to reproduce themselves, as we had since Mendel's work was rediscovered, we turn it around and imagine that "our" genes build and maintain us in order to make more genes. That simple reversal seems to answer many puzzlers which had stumped scientists for years, and we haven't thought of evolution in the same way since.




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InvisibleSynthe
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19388718 - 01/08/14 03:27 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours





Quote:

The easy answer: Nobody becomes a parent before the age of 40.




... I think you forgot you said WITHOUT insane behaviors.


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: koods]
    #19388719 - 01/08/14 03:27 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Fascinating.


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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: koods]
    #19388745 - 01/08/14 03:32 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

I'm pretty sure the world is being run by a group of eugenicists who literally consider themselves a different species. And they view the rest of humanity as scum that need to be exterminated.


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Offlinebeardedcrow
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Aedan]
    #19388754 - 01/08/14 03:34 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Sounds good but would there be any long term effects of old people raising children instead of more active 2 year old parents?


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: beardedcrow]
    #19388801 - 01/08/14 03:43 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

beardedcrow said:
Sounds good but would there be any long term effects of old people raising children instead of more active 2 year old parents?




Babies having babies.


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OfflineEugenicssucks
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviors) [Re: KremrBigSikter]
    #22461987 - 11/01/15 12:16 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Most people that argue for eugenics, miss a critical point; the endless *will* of man to succeed in the face of adversity.  Humans, when faced with real and incapacitating limitations, will tend to over develop compensating abilities, tricks and talents.  Say a man losses one arm, then inevitably the other arm will get stronger...better and more capable.  In the same manner, bad genes, diseases or intellectual shortcomings, will force into existence a broad range of compensatory mechanisms or "superpowers" that may easily outperform the "most fit" and healthy individuals.  Recall the movie GATACCA? Well it's the same, where the recognition of some level of inferiority fuels a burning desire to succeed against all odds, and by itself, the limitation becomes exactly the powerful catalytic motive to excel beyond natural limitations.  Therefore, at the scale of social strength, survival of the fittest society goes beyond having a diverse and genetically rich population, it should also keep and protect its sickest and weakest members, for among these and their mountain high challenges, there is fertile grounds for extremely powerful wills to develop.  There's very little you can do against people with terrible diseases or who have overcome many of their challenges with known severe limitations, if you're up against their will.  They just won't give up, they won't give in.  Their stories can't easily be erased from the larger picture, their stories have shaped and transformed civilizations and will continue to do so.  The nature of the human spirit sets this paradoxical truth; the weak are as necessary as the strong for the survival of human kind.


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InvisibleBurke Dennings
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviors) [Re: Eugenicssucks] * 1
    #22462021 - 11/01/15 12:24 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Haha, you wrote a serious, thought-out response to a thread authored by Patlal.  :haha:


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Invisibleluvdemboomers
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Burke Dennings]
    #22462204 - 11/01/15 12:57 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

practically sounds like a good idea but I would never be for the government telling people what they can do with their body.

I'm all for programs like c.r.a.c.k. that pay people $200 dollars to be sterilized. It's not government sanctioned and people do it by choice.


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