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Invisiblenooneman
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Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,561
Loc: Utah
Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #19387955 - 01/08/14 12:26 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

There is no right way to do eugenics. It's impossible to tell what genes may or may not be helpful in the future, especially because we don't even fully understand the functionality of the vast majority of genes.

Further, eugenics is a cruel denial of personal freedoms. You might as well be suggesting that free speech is something that we should give up because it would make a better society. No one has the right to tell others who they can and can't have children with, and when etc.

Imagine if the government came into your home and told you that it decided that you can't have children. Forget death panels, you're talking about birth panels, a bunch of government idiots in suits sitting around deciding who can and can't have children. That's the fucking future you're proposing with eugenics.

You know what happens in China when someone has a child without the government's permission? The child is killed (or given to someone else), and the mother has her tubes tied. Imagine that happening to your wife and child.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19387958 - 01/08/14 12:27 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

People fall apart once they are past the age where they can reproduce successfully - your selfish genes have no more use for their squishy organic protective shell we call bodies.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19387961 - 01/08/14 12:28 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
This is stupid. This won't work.

In nature natural selection prunes genetically physical weakness, as well as provides benefit for smarter animals to survive as well.

This idea only will produce people who live longer, not smarter or more physically sound. Eugenics is more about creating a smarter more physically adept humans.

I am in favour of eugenics, but this idea sucks. The last thing we need is longer living humans that arent necessarily smarter/physically stronger. The population is already becoming an issue, this would make it worse.




Where did I mention that we would eliminate the intelligence is physical strenght? When the guy reaches 40, if he smart and strong and hasn't died of a disease, he spread his genes. If he happens to be weak and stupid, he might still carry valuable genes such as a strong liver and good eyesight.

The only factor discriminated upon in my example are those who die an early death.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: nooneman]
    #19387967 - 01/08/14 12:30 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
There is no right way to do eugenics. It's impossible to tell what genes may or may not be helpful in the future, especially because we don't even fully understand the functionality of the vast majority of genes.

Further, eugenics is a cruel denial of personal freedoms. You might as well be suggesting that free speech is something that we should give up because it would make a better society. No one has the right to tell others who they can and can't have children with, and when etc.

Imagine if the government came into your home and told you that it decided that you can't have children. Forget death panels, you're talking about birth panels, a bunch of government idiots in suits sitting around deciding who can and can't have children. That's the fucking future you're proposing with eugenics.

You know what happens in China when someone has a child without the government's permission? The child is killed (or given to someone else), and the mother has her tubes tied. Imagine that happening to your wife and child.




Where did I mention that the government would have a say on who lives or dies?

Those who survive to 40 can reproduce. Those who die before they reach 40 can't, cause you know, there're dead and stuff.


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InvisibleFrozenHappiness
Professional Cereal Box

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 5,330
Loc: Nagoon Lagoon
Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: koods]
    #19387968 - 01/08/14 12:30 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Delyaing reproduction is still manipulating genes though. By delaying reproduction many organism that would have otherwise reproduced would not. You end up manipulating genes at the population level.
The practice essentialy becomes an evolutionary bottleneck, and many unique alleles will inevitably be lost which lowers genetic diversity for our speices, which could potentially lower the overall fitness of our species.


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: FrozenHappiness]
    #19387995 - 01/08/14 12:39 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

FrozenHappiness said:
Delyaing reproduction is still manipulating genes though. By delaying reproduction many organism that would have otherwise reproduced would not. You end up manipulating genes at the population level.
The practice essentialy becomes an evolutionary bottleneck, and many unique alleles will inevitably be lost which lowers genetic diversity for our speices, which could potentially lower the overall fitness of our species.




We already have 7 billion individuals. Every allele is spread out already. Plus these alleles will simply join one another and create other stable chromosomes. WHy would it create a bottleneck? Wouldn't reproducing at 20 year old create that same bottleneck except 20 years earlier?


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19388004 - 01/08/14 12:40 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

You can pretend it's about the future of humanity, OP, but it's really that nobody wants to have your baby.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: koods]
    #19388032 - 01/08/14 12:48 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
You can pretend it's about the future of humanity, OP, but it's really that nobody wants to have your baby.




I've been thinking about it and I have multiple reasons not to have a baby. The odds are that he will inherit some of my defaults which could seriously affect his future.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19388077 - 01/08/14 01:00 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
The odds are that he will inherit some of my defaults which
could seriously affect his future.




thats no reason not to have a baby. you don't have to be perfect to be the perfect parent  :durrhurr:


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check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisibleFrozenHappiness
Professional Cereal Box

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 5,330
Loc: Nagoon Lagoon
Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: FrozenHappiness]
    #19388091 - 01/08/14 01:03 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Every allele isn't spread out evenly though. Some are more rare than others. Many are endemic to particular regions/populations. Some alleles are beneficial in some certian situations, and are detrimental in others. The sickle cell allele is the most famouse example.

Edit: Reproduction at 20 yrs doesn't create a bottleneck because there is variation in our life history. Some of us reproduce at 12, 15, 20, 25, 30, ect. years of age. If a restriction was placed that only allowed reproduction at 20 then yes that would create a bottleneck too, but as it stands that isn't the case.

It is true that our population is more than big enough  and diverse enough currently, I am by no means advocating there be even more people on this planet, and thus I refuse to breed, but artificial selection will lead to a whole host of unintended consequences. There will be trade-offs, by selecting for a trait, or even a set of traits you inevitably select against other traits.

Using this system it is very likely that only a (relatively) very small number of populations, or even more likely a very small subset of a very small number of populations, will be able fertile and fecund enough produce pleanty of viable offspring.

Many populations will be greatly reduced or go extinct immediately. Many more may go after a couple of generations.

And then you can run into the peculiar issues of a less diverse gene pool. Inbreeding depression, loss of heterozygosity, and the fixing of recessive alleles


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Edited by FrozenHappiness (01/08/14 01:20 PM)


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
Healthy Body, Sick Mind
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Registered: 01/02/13
Posts: 4,899
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19388211 - 01/08/14 01:31 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
This is stupid. This won't work.

In nature natural selection prunes genetically physical weakness, as well as provides benefit for smarter animals to survive as well.

This idea only will produce people who live longer, not smarter or more physically sound. Eugenics is more about creating a smarter more physically adept humans.

I am in favour of eugenics, but this idea sucks. The last thing we need is longer living humans that arent necessarily smarter/physically stronger. The population is already becoming an issue, this would make it worse.




Where did I mention that we would eliminate the intelligence is physical strenght? When the guy reaches 40, if he smart and strong and hasn't died of a disease, he spread his genes. If he happens to be weak and stupid, he might still carry valuable genes such as a strong liver and good eyesight.

The only factor discriminated upon in my example are those who die an early death.





All your idea is doing is creating a human that lives longer, not a stronger human. We dont need longer living people, which will increase total global population. We need smarter and physically stronger humans.

If anything your plan would harm the human race. Women after 40 have much higher rates of infertility, miscarriage and birth defects. Also, evolution also favours a faster reproduction cycle. Organisms with quick reproduction cycles are normally much more adaptable. Makes sense, there is more generations in a given time period, there is higher chance of beneficial traits.

This idea of yours seems like it would hurt more than it would help. I dont think you understand eugenics, it is about working with our genetics, not against them. Humans arent meant to breed that late, they hit their prime much earlier. Why would forcing us to bear children past our prime help anything?

If anything the ideal human would live shorter than it does now. Live to maybe 55-60, and then die off quickly. This would ensure quicker turnaround time in generations, as well as free up resources that are consumed by the elderly. These resources would be better off nurturing the current working generation, and the upcoming generation. This would be of more benefit.


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19388291 - 01/08/14 01:49 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

For arguments sake, lets assume humans reach reproductive age at 15.

How many people die from an inherited genetic disease between the age of 15-40?

I'd assume the number is pretty darn low, so making people wait until 40 to have kids is unlikely to "weed out" any undesirable traits.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Edited by badchad (01/08/14 01:49 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Registered: 05/26/11
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19388382 - 01/08/14 02:13 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

koods said:
You can pretend it's about the future of humanity, OP, but it's really that nobody wants to have your baby.




I've been thinking about it and I have multiple reasons not to have a baby. The odds are that he will inherit some of my defaults which could seriously affect his future.




Default lol. Being Canadian isn't a genetic trait.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
Other

Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #19388397 - 01/08/14 02:19 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

This is retarded. Dawkins is retarded. There's countless things wrong with this "intelligent" suggestion.


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19388463 - 01/08/14 02:35 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
This is retarded. Dawkins is retarded. There's countless things wrong with this "intelligent" suggestion.




Dawkins has been elected to be one of the best thinker of his generation.

Of course there are things wrong with this discussion. Otherwise there would be no discussion. If I posted that 2+2=4, the thread would have died. You need a tad bit of controversy to create something interesting.

But of course, everybody except you is retarded right?


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
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Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19388478 - 01/08/14 02:41 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Yes, Dawkins the greatest thinker of all time because because he pointed out how ridiculous a fuckin fairy tale is. The rest of his observations are either simple restatings of shit he played no part in discovering or books aimed at children.


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19388534 - 01/08/14 02:52 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Yes, Dawkins the greatest thinker of all time because because he pointed out how ridiculous a fuckin fairy tale is. The rest of his observations are either simple restatings of shit he played no part in discovering or books aimed at children.




And what exactly have you done that gives you the right to critique Dawkins?


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19388605 - 01/08/14 03:06 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Yes, Dawkins the greatest thinker of all time because because he pointed out how ridiculous a fuckin fairy tale is. The rest of his observations are either simple restatings of shit he played no part in discovering or books aimed at children.



His selfish gene theory is regarded as one of the great leaps in understanding Darwinian evolutionary biology.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
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Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Patlal]
    #19388609 - 01/08/14 03:07 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

I wasn't aware critiquing someone required credentials.


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Re: Eugenics: How to do it the right way (without mass murder and insane behaviours) [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19388621 - 01/08/14 03:09 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
I wasn't aware critiquing someone required credentials.




Now you know.


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