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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,828
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Jung 1
#19381507 - 01/07/14 09:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Jung's mythic philosophy is, no doubt, very popular, but in perusing it I came across something a little rough: He calls the "small, brown-skinned savage" a "primitive" and "inferior" type of man, and concludes that he is "singularly incapable of moral judgment." Did Jung not realize that civilized man has carried out the most morally outrageous acts of any creature in the four billion year history of our planet? If his entire psychological theory of the shadow is based on such an elementary anthropological error, why am I asked to take him seriously in any area of his thought? I, for one, am not and have never been interested in heroic myth, and consider it to be a cultural rather than innate sort of phenomenon. I have never encountered anything in my collective unconscious, in myself, to incline me in the slightest way toward recognizing any validity to his mythic "archetypes." He plainly had no knowledge of even the most basic ideas in anthropology, and constructed his theories in a vertical (heroic) continuum, whilst not realizing that this was the cultural and psychological continuum in which he was raised -- not necessarily the one in which humanity exists naturally.
(quotations taken from Psychology and Religion, CW 11, pars. 130-4 and "The Shadow" Aion, CW 9 ii, pars. 13-19)
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,759
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I like the fact that he honors symbols and dreams I do not agree with his interpretations of what he studied.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Like all pioneers Jung opened a door only. He of course got some things quite wrong. If he had not it would have been completed with his work and that's never the case. Why throw the baby out with the bath water?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,759
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if you meet the Baby in the middle of the bathwater throw him out!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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I see you are trying out for OCs spot now that he seems to be dead. I think you are a worthy successor.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,759
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Quote:
Icelander said: I see you are trying out for OCs spot now that he seems to be dead. I think you are a worthy successor. 
are jyoo tocking to mee?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Yoo so funny guy what!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Quote:
Icelander said: Like all pioneers Jung opened a door only. He of course got some things quite wrong. If he had not it would have been completed with his work and that's never the case. Why throw the baby out with the bath water?
Opened a door to what? A dead end? You have to have an idea before you can eliminate it from consideration as false. Jung's contribution was that we no longer had to consider his particular brand of useless nonsense. Same as Fraud.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Yeah I know your position on Freud. I would be surprised if anyone else thinks he's made no contributions to the field of psychology.
Aren't you the one who thinks it all begins and ends with Skinner? I think I saw you mention that in some thread.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Quote:
Icelander said: Yeah I know your position on Freud. I would be surprised if anyone else thinks he's made no contributions to the field of psychology.
His contributions to psychology were to present easily eliminated ideas.Quote:
Aren't you the one who thinks it all begins and ends with Skinner? I think I saw you mention that in some thread.
It doesn't end all with Skinner but it does begin there. He is descriptive and, most importantly, predictive. It isn't science if it doesn't produce realizable predictions
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
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Wow, holy shit, I actually agree with zappaisgod. I think most psychology is useless pseudoscience, with the notable exception of behaviorism.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: Wow, holy shit, I actually agree with zappaisgod. I think most psychology is useless pseudoscience, with the notable exception of behaviorism.
There's also physiological psychology.
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Terratic
"Earthstruck"

Registered: 01/27/13
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Ah, the half-life of knowledge!
Jungs imaginative interpretations and conceptualizations often couldn't be meaningfully formulated into actual solutions. Although he treated psychology as a science, many of his models and analyses weren't exactly literal and concrete, and therefore difficult to validate—especially when it came to oneirology. His work has a different kind of value, IMO, but I can't help but disagree with him on many things.
Ni + Fe + Ti, I tell ya. Erm. No offense, Darwin23.
Edited by Terratic (01/08/14 05:20 AM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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Jung was also accused of anti-Semitism because of his understanding of the archetypes that were being activated in the German psyche with the rise of Nazism. He made Jolanda Jacobi return to her studies in an already Nazi-domnated Germany, and she was a Jew (she was also my 2nd analyst's control analyst when he trained in Zurich. Jacobi was herself analyzed by Freud, Adler, and Jung). Unlike yourself, I do recognize the validity of archetypes. I have also explored James Hillman's school of Archetypal Psychology (and spoke with him once when I was applying for analytic training). ken Wilber explains, nicely I might add, that archetypal and universal are not necessarily synonymous. Stan Grof has found ample evidence of archetypal themes that manifested through his many psychedelic therapy patients. Jung certainly had profound personal shortcomings that the "The Jung Cult" [see Richard Noll's book by the same title], seems to overlook. He did not have a multidisciplinary knowledge base but expanded Freud's theory of libido while acknowledging that some people's psyches might be characterized by the Freudian or the Adlerian phenomenologies, or his own.
http://www.amazon.com/Lingering-Shadows-Jungians-Freudians-Anti-Semitism/dp/0877736006/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1389231629&sr=8-2&keywords=lingering+shadows
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Yeah, I didn't understand Jung until I understood Ken Wilber. It's been 100 years since Jung, Joyce, Gurdjieff, and Crowley were beginning their work. Wonder what's beginning out there right now.
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