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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Crystal G]
#19384203 - 01/07/14 06:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Crystal G said:
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zappaisgod said:
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ShiVersblood said: So u want all poor people to become hunter gather people? Uhhh...... Wtf....
No. I want whiners to stop whining that they are trapped on the wheel. Unimaginative, talentless and lazy hacks.
What if somebody is mentally handicapped and has like Down's Syndrome or something? The entire reason they are given work and can afford living expenses is because of non-discrimination laws and minimum wage.
They are given work out of charity. Minimum wage laws probably inhibit their opportunities to live meaningful lives wherein they can take pride in making a contribution and doing things.
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Crystal G



Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 9 months, 7 hours
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
#19384218 - 01/07/14 06:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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zappaisgod said: They are given work out of charity. Minimum wage laws probably inhibit their opportunities to live meaningful lives wherein they can take pride in making a contribution and doing things.
What can somebody who is mentally handicapped do, except maybe being a motivational speaker and working at Starbucks or something?
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,412
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 48 minutes, 48 seconds
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Crystal G]
#19384224 - 01/07/14 06:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Crystal G said:
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zappaisgod said: Less that 3% of the population makes minimum wage. In some cheap industries that make shit with talentless drones who can only make minimum wage the prices will go up for the crap that poor people buy. Unless they can buy machines to do it for less.
Did you ever consider that the reason people make more than minimum wage, is because minimum wage sets the standard and the precedent for what would compel companies to offer a higher and more appealable wage?
Bing bing bing. This2
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Crystal G]
#19384234 - 01/07/14 06:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Crystal G said:
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zappaisgod said: Less that 3% of the population makes minimum wage. In some cheap industries that make shit with talentless drones who can only make minimum wage the prices will go up for the crap that poor people buy. Unless they can buy machines to do it for less.
Did you ever consider that the reason people make more than minimum wage, is because minimum wage sets the standard and the precedent for what would compel companies to offer a higher and more appealable wage?
Yes, I have heard the argument. I find it to be nonsense. Let me repeat this. Less than 3% of workers make minimum wage. The greatest negative impact of raising the minimum wage will befall those making minimum wage. They will be replaced by machines when they can be and their jobs will be sent to Bangladesh when they can be.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Crystal G]
#19384249 - 01/07/14 06:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Crystal G said:
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zappaisgod said: They are given work out of charity. Minimum wage laws probably inhibit their opportunities to live meaningful lives wherein they can take pride in making a contribution and doing things.
What can somebody who is mentally handicapped do, except maybe being a motivational speaker and working at Starbucks or something?
We have several of them bagging groceries at the supermarkets where I live. I'm going to guess that their pay is subsidized to a certain extent. I don't mind that I'm probably footing some of that bill. They can do the job and it gives them something.
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Crystal G



Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 9 months, 7 hours
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
#19384264 - 01/07/14 06:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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zappaisgod said:
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Crystal G said:
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zappaisgod said: Less that 3% of the population makes minimum wage. In some cheap industries that make shit with talentless drones who can only make minimum wage the prices will go up for the crap that poor people buy. Unless they can buy machines to do it for less.
Did you ever consider that the reason people make more than minimum wage, is because minimum wage sets the standard and the precedent for what would compel companies to offer a higher and more appealable wage?
Yes, I have heard the argument. I find it to be nonsense. Let me repeat this. Less than 3% of workers make minimum wage. The greatest negative impact of raising the minimum wage will befall those making minimum wage. They will be replaced by machines when they can be and their jobs will be sent to Bangladesh when they can be.
So you think that American people should compete with Bangladesh factory workers? I mean, creating that level of poverty in this country is actually bad for the economy. When people are rich and have money, they participate more in consumerism and in the market.
Tech jobs are also constantly being outsourced to India because they will do it for a third of the price Americans demand, auto makers assemble their parts in Mexico to save costs, companies will always find any way to cut costs. If the only way to keep jobs in America is by competing with countries that pay a couple bucks for an entire day's work, is it really worth it?
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Crystal G



Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 9 months, 7 hours
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
#19384277 - 01/07/14 06:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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zappaisgod said:
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Crystal G said:
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zappaisgod said: They are given work out of charity. Minimum wage laws probably inhibit their opportunities to live meaningful lives wherein they can take pride in making a contribution and doing things.
What can somebody who is mentally handicapped do, except maybe being a motivational speaker and working at Starbucks or something?
We have several of them bagging groceries at the supermarkets where I live. I'm going to guess that their pay is subsidized to a certain extent. I don't mind that I'm probably footing some of that bill. They can do the job and it gives them something.
So then, don't you think that those mentally handicapped workers deserve a minimum wage? Because I'm pretty sure those guys are only making minimum wage. And if minimum wage didn't exist, how much would they be making an hour? $5? $3? $2?
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,412
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 48 minutes, 48 seconds
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
#19384279 - 01/07/14 06:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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zappaisgod said:
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Crystal G said:
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zappaisgod said: Less that 3% of the population makes minimum wage. In some cheap industries that make shit with talentless drones who can only make minimum wage the prices will go up for the crap that poor people buy. Unless they can buy machines to do it for less.
Did you ever consider that the reason people make more than minimum wage, is because minimum wage sets the standard and the precedent for what would compel companies to offer a higher and more appealable wage?
Yes, I have heard the argument. I find it to be nonsense. Let me repeat this. Less than 3% of workers make minimum wage. The greatest negative impact of raising the minimum wage will befall those making minimum wage. They will be replaced by machines when they can be and their jobs will be sent to Bangladesh when they can be.
Actually. It's 4.6% when you include people making LESS than federal minimum wage. It is probably much higher than when you account for people making state minimum wage.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Crystal G]
#19384321 - 01/07/14 06:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Crystal G said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
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Crystal G said:
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zappaisgod said: Less that 3% of the population makes minimum wage. In some cheap industries that make shit with talentless drones who can only make minimum wage the prices will go up for the crap that poor people buy. Unless they can buy machines to do it for less.
Did you ever consider that the reason people make more than minimum wage, is because minimum wage sets the standard and the precedent for what would compel companies to offer a higher and more appealable wage?
Yes, I have heard the argument. I find it to be nonsense. Let me repeat this. Less than 3% of workers make minimum wage. The greatest negative impact of raising the minimum wage will befall those making minimum wage. They will be replaced by machines when they can be and their jobs will be sent to Bangladesh when they can be.
So you think that American people should compete with Bangladesh factory workers? I mean, creating that level of poverty in this country is actually bad for the economy. When people are rich and have money, they participate more in consumerism and in the market.
Of course American workers compete with Bangladeshi factory workers. It makes goods cheaper. That is the essence of successful commerce. Make it better, make it cheaper. The American worker can compete in quality or he can compete with advantageous shipping protocols, i.e. it costs a lot less to send a widget from Toledo to NY than it does from Quandzhou.Quote:
Tech jobs are also constantly being outsourced to India because they will do it for a third of the price Americans demand, auto makers assemble their parts in Mexico to save costs, companies will always find any way to cut costs. If the only way to keep jobs in America is by competing with countries that pay a couple bucks for an entire day's work, is it really worth it?
Yes.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
#19384335 - 01/07/14 06:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
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Crystal G said:
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zappaisgod said: Less that 3% of the population makes minimum wage. In some cheap industries that make shit with talentless drones who can only make minimum wage the prices will go up for the crap that poor people buy. Unless they can buy machines to do it for less.
Did you ever consider that the reason people make more than minimum wage, is because minimum wage sets the standard and the precedent for what would compel companies to offer a higher and more appealable wage?
Yes, I have heard the argument. I find it to be nonsense. Let me repeat this. Less than 3% of workers make minimum wage. The greatest negative impact of raising the minimum wage will befall those making minimum wage. They will be replaced by machines when they can be and their jobs will be sent to Bangladesh when they can be.
Actually. It's 4.6% when you include people making LESS than federal minimum wage. It is probably much higher than when you account for people making state minimum wage.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/dec/08/rob-portman/rob-portman-says-about-2-percent-americans-get-pai/
I posted this before
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Crystal G



Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 9 months, 7 hours
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
#19384354 - 01/07/14 06:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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zappaisgod said: Actually. It's 4.6% when you include people making LESS than federal minimum wage. It is probably much higher than when you account for people making state minimum wage.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/dec/08/rob-portman/rob-portman-says-about-2-percent-americans-get-pai/
I posted this before
Bear in mind that is for the federal minimum wage. Many states have significantly higher minimum wages than the federal wage, so by calculating federal minimum wage workers only, it automatically excludes millions of people who make the state minimum wage.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Crystal G]
#19384395 - 01/07/14 06:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Crystal G said:
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zappaisgod said: Actually. It's 4.6% when you include people making LESS than federal minimum wage. It is probably much higher than when you account for people making state minimum wage.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/dec/08/rob-portman/rob-portman-says-about-2-percent-americans-get-pai/
I posted this before
Bear in mind that is for the federal minimum wage. Many states have significantly higher minimum wages than the federal wage, so by calculating federal minimum wage workers only, it automatically excludes millions of people who make the state minimum wage.
You do know that the discussion is about raising the federal minimum wage, right?
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DebuteMachine

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 6,457
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: ShiVersblood]
#19384427 - 01/07/14 07:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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ShiVersblood said: Such a life would be just like prison! Land of the free prison style.
I litterally cannot believe what this guy was just saying to you. I would be with the 450% and just start looting shit. Fuck it.
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mpd
Lammen Gorthaur



Registered: 10/22/12
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Loc: Mostly at home... Mostly....
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: imachavel]
#19384536 - 01/07/14 07:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Why not? We have had five years of liberal economic policy failures, I would like to see this one fail too.
-------------------- There is no truer calling for mankind than that of true conservatism.
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,412
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 48 minutes, 48 seconds
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: mpd]
#19384618 - 01/07/14 07:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm going to go with the Bureau of labor statistics, not rob Portman. http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2012.htm
Quote:
In 2012, 75.3 million workers in the United States age 16 and over were paid at hourly rates, representing 59.0 percent of all wage and salary workers. 1 Among those paid by the hour, 1.6 million earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 2.0 million had wages below the federal minimum.2 Together, these 3.6 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 4.7 percent of all hourly paid workers
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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DebuteMachine

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 6,457
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: koods]
#19384626 - 01/07/14 07:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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koods i dont get it, give me layman terms.
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,412
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: DebuteMachine]
#19384656 - 01/07/14 07:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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4.7% of hourly employees make minimum or less than minimum
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Patlal]
#19384668 - 01/07/14 07:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Patlal said: To all of you advocating that minimum salary shouldn't exist;
We are not in the 1940s anymore, you should grab a couple of history books to catch up and get up with the times.
Truth is, people are much better off now than when there was no minimum salary. We have human rights now, laws that prevents abuse, regulations to prevent extreme variations in the market, hell women have the right to vote!
Quit bitching that the minimum salary hurts employment and whatnot. It's been around the world for several decades and people still managed to jobs, businesses survived, some thrived and billionaires were even made.
All you need is to bring your train of thoughts to the reality of today instead of dreaming of the misery that was yesterday
if only Zappa understood this. It's very hard to explain to him I don't believe the horse shit 3% minimum wage crap he brings up with a link. At least he has a link, but I'll bet that minimum wage is more like 30%, either way perhaps minimum wage is earned by so few because it's SUCH A JOKE that even the shittiest employers pay people a few cents more then minimum these days. But to tackle how many people are on minimum wage I'd like to address another perspective:
"Economist Dean Baker describes one effect of this in Minimum Wage: Who Decided Workers Should Fall Behind?
“If the minimum wage had risen in step with productivity growth [since 1968], it would be over $16.50 an hour today. That is higher than the hourly wages earned by 40 percent of men and half of women.”
Baker is referring to this CEPR study: The Minimum Wage and Economic Growth.
40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage
Read what Baker wrote again. The minimum wage would be $16.50 an hour — $33,000 a year — if it had kept up with the growth of productivity since 1968. To put the effect of this a different way, 40% of Americans now make less than the 1968 minimum wage, had the minimum wage kept pace with productivity gains.
To put this even another way, the average American’s living standard would be much, much higher today if wages had not decoupled from productivity gains – with the gains all going to the 1% instead of being shared by We, the People. If wages had kept pace we wouldn’t feel the terrible squeeze that everyone in the middle class is feeling. (Never mind what has happened to those below the middle class.)
This is one more way to understand the effect of income and wealth inequality on each of us. The 1%/99% thing is real. When you hear that the 6 Walmart heirs have more wealth than 1/3 (or more) of all Americans combined, it is real. When you hear that the people on the Forbes list of the 400 wealthiest Americans have more wealth than half of all Americans combined, it is real.
And the effects on the rest of us are real."
http://ourfuture.org/20130219/40-of-americans-now-under-former-minimum-wage
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: DebuteMachine]
#19384670 - 01/07/14 07:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
2 The presence of a sizable number of workers with wages below the federal minimum does not necessarily indicate violations of the Fair Labor Standards Act, as there are exemptions to the minimum wage provisions of the law. The estimates of the numbers of minimum and subminimum wage workers presented in the accompanying tables pertain to workers paid at hourly rates; salaried and other non-hourly workers are excluded. As such, the actual number of workers with earnings at or below the prevailing federal minimum is undoubtedly understated. Research has shown that a relatively small number and share of salaried workers and others not paid by the hour have earnings that, when translated into hourly rates, are at or below the minimum wage. However, BLS does not routinely estimate hourly earnings for non-hourly workers because of data concerns that arise in producing these estimates.
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,412
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: mpd]
#19384677 - 01/07/14 07:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
mpd said: Why not? We have had five years of liberal economic policy failures, I would like to see this one fail too.
Such failure
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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