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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19383709 - 01/07/14 05:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not having rules is complexity?  Most native speaking elementary school children can learn the English language quite well and speak it correctly almost 100% of the time.  They couldn't get near higher math.  The English language has 26 symbols.  Mathematics has far more

I really don't think you have any business at all opining on the complexity of mathematical language since you are clearly utterly ignorant of anything beyond plus, minus, times and gazzinta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mathematical_symbols




I think morrow is talking about a higher level of english. Basic english yes, its not that hard
But have you ever picked up a book written by hegel? Even many college graduates cannot understand that level of written language. I've read lots of political philosophy, and even I found hegel supremely difficult to read. Only graduate students who have been trained can read something on that level. But the same does apply to advanced calculus as well.



The only book I ever tried to read that was ostensibly in English but found utterly incomprehensible was by Joyce.  Ulysses, to be precise.  Hve not attempted Hegel.  Will see if I can find some snippets.

The calculus is not the pinnacle of math complexity by a long shot.


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Onlinelifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19383734 - 01/07/14 05:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Algebra is the pinnacle of math.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19383743 - 01/07/14 05:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Checked him out.  He is a Flying Spaghetti Monster guy


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #19383745 - 01/07/14 05:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Algebra is the pinnacle of math.



For you.


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Onlinelifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19383929 - 01/07/14 05:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

This is true.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #19384423 - 01/07/14 07:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You can think about the complexity of something like this: If you were to make a physics which could make predictive laws about its behavior, on what order of magnitude would the calculations be? Mathematics, because they adhere to systems of rule-based definitions or inference rules that are made explicit prior to all instances of inference therefrom, would be describable in a physics that uses linear calculations, and thus can never be as complex as language. Language requires something like a quantum physics to predictively characterize its behavior using mathematical models.

Complexity is not related to how difficult something was for you to learn or is for you to use. Our brains are hard-wired to do 99% of the complex calculations involved in language use, but simple mathematics like arithmetic is not hard-wired into our brains. Noam Chomsky dedicated his entire linguistics career to attempting to describe complements of the portion of the system that is hard-wired into the brain.


Edited by morrowasted (01/07/14 07:28 PM)


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Onlinelifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384685 - 01/07/14 07:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

What's the pinnacle of math for you zappaisgod?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #19384703 - 01/07/14 07:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I find topology utterly incomprehensible.  Chaos theory.  I'm sure there are other fields I don't even know about.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384740 - 01/07/14 07:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Chaos theory is not that complex in any sense of the word :rolleyes:


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Onlinelifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384754 - 01/07/14 08:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I find topology utterly incomprehensible.  Chaos theory.  I'm sure there are other fields I don't even know about.




I'm not sure you know what pinnacle means.
It means the high point.
You think something you don't even understand is the high point of math?
I don't see that logic.
Algebra, on the other hand, changed the world as we know it.
Thus, I think algebra is the pinnacle of math.


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OfflineThe Vapor
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19384773 - 01/07/14 08:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Chaos theory is not that complex in any sense of the word :rolleyes:




Lol, okay. I'm sure you can handle all the math behind the concepts with ease.


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InvisibleMagicman69
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: The Vapor]
    #19384794 - 01/07/14 08:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Vapor said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Chaos theory is not that complex in any sense of the word :rolleyes:




Lol, okay. I'm sure you can handle all the math behind the concepts with ease.



Probably does the calculations in his head. Is that you Stephen Hawking? :lol:


Edited by Magicman69 (01/07/14 08:09 PM)


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19387444 - 01/08/14 11:02 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
You can think about the complexity of something like this: If you were to make a physics which could make predictive laws about its behavior, on what order of magnitude would the calculations be? Mathematics, because they adhere to systems of rule-based definitions or inference rules that are made explicit prior to all instances of inference therefrom, would be describable in a physics that uses linear calculations, and thus can never be as complex as language. Language requires something like a quantum physics to predictively characterize its behavior using mathematical models.

Complexity is not related to how difficult something was for you to learn or is for you to use. Our brains are hard-wired to do 99% of the complex calculations involved in language use, but simple mathematics like arithmetic is not hard-wired into our brains. Noam Chomsky dedicated his entire linguistics career to attempting to describe complements of the portion of the system that is hard-wired into the brain.





I recommend these books for anyone seeking to further understand this process:

The Neuroscience of Language: On Brain Circuits of Words and Serial Order (Cambridge Companions to Philosophy)



The Biolinguistic Enterprise: New Perspectives on the Evolution and Nature of the Human Language Faculty





Edited by morrowasted (01/08/14 11:16 AM)


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19387971 - 01/08/14 12:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)



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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19387975 - 01/08/14 12:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:derail:


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19387993 - 01/08/14 12:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
:derail:



cliffs: zappa vastly misunderstands the concept of complexity







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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19528963 - 02/06/14 05:10 AM (10 years, 19 days ago)



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Invisibleschwarg
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19528968 - 02/06/14 05:15 AM (10 years, 19 days ago)

What the hell is this thread even about now.......fucking intellectuals...


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: schwarg]
    #19529050 - 02/06/14 05:55 AM (10 years, 19 days ago)

Lol no shit . . .


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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