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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure?
    #19377192 - 01/06/14 01:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Just wondering. Let's face it. The hippy generation and psychedellics sparked a generation of people newly and refreshingly interested in spirituality/religion.
Would you consider yourself religious without drug exposure?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (01/06/14 12:02 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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OfflineChuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
Posts: 628
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #19378622 - 01/06/14 06:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I wouldve been a stone face athiest wihout any drug use, honestly. Pot for sure, but my acid days had a part to play


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Chuckfinely]
    #19378770 - 01/06/14 07:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chuckfinely said:
I wouldve been a stone face athiest wihout any drug use, honestly. Pot for sure, but my acid days had a part to play





Same here only I can't be sure I would have been an atheist, I was an atheist before I tried marijuana but that doesn't mean I would have remained one my entire life. How can you possibly know what would have happened if?


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Posts: 10,848
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Deviate]
    #19379864 - 01/06/14 10:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Chuckfinely said:
I wouldve been a stone face athiest wihout any drug use, honestly. Pot for sure, but my acid days had a part to play





Same here only I can't be sure I would have been an atheist, I was an atheist before I tried marijuana but that doesn't mean I would have remained one my entire life. How can you possibly know what would have happened if?




But what kind of theist? I remember these fundies that would come to campus and pass out pit of hellfire pamphlets. They were really quite brilliant, little stick men being tossed into a pit of hell fire with a kind of "see Jane, see Jane being tossed into a pit of hellfire, no Jane, no!" demeanor.  Oh man, the MidWest, good times. :braindamage:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19380343 - 01/07/14 12:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Are you asking me what kind of theist I am? If so, I don't know how to answer that. The kind who seeks to know and live in communion with the almighty and ever-living God, the everlasting Father, through finding joy in loving the Lord, Jesus Christ. I'm that kind of theist.

As for hell pamphlets that does sound funny to me but only because I find religion to be generally quite hilarious (but true) but why did you find them hilarious? Hell is a very real threat. I've been through hell on earth and it's no joke, certainly no laughing matter.


Edited by Deviate (01/07/14 12:29 AM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Deviate]
    #19380376 - 01/07/14 12:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Nope, what kind of Christian might you have became without psychedelics... Say the moment you were struck with real death anxiety, perhaps you had a heart attack from drug abuse--- then maybe you'd get scared and become a rabid Christian with a hellfire pamphlet.

Anyways, these fundamentalists aren't concerned with 'hell on earth', which can be much more accurately described without the metaphysical drama.  They're not talking about third world nations dying of starvation, nor are they talking about psychological psychosis ----they are scaring people with ideas of an afterlife full of sociopathic nazi torment by God. 

What a joke.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19380607 - 01/07/14 01:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Oh, I get your point. What kind of Christian would I have become without psychedelics. Oh, that is very very easy to answer. The exact same kind.

I would never have become a Christian simply because I was afraid to die. In fact, I have been so miserable that I have often looked forward to death ever since I was a teenager. But aside from that, even if I was afraid of death, I would not have been capable of simply believing in Christianity to fix that issue anymore than I am capable of believing that tomorrow I will meet the girl of my dreams and she will fall in love with m, and that's way less of a stretch for the mind than going from atheism to Christianity. I could very well meet the girl of my dreams tomorrow, but it is unlikely, it sounds too good to be true and so I am incapable of believing it. It doesn't matter how much I want it to be true or what the stakes are. You could put a gun to my head and demand that I believe or you will shoot and although I might tell you I believe it, the truth is in my heart I most likely still would not believe it.  In fact, when i was young child, when I still loved life, I was deeply frightened of death. I was raised in a non religious household but my catholic grandmother tried to teach about the Lord Jesus Christ and how I could have eternal life through him. I desperately wanted it to be true and yet even to my child brain (which believed in Santa claus and the Easter Bunny) I was still unable to believe in the gospel because it sounded too good to be true to me. Eternal life? Heaven? Come on, heaven is my heart's deepest desire and if there is one thing that life has taught me, it's that you can't have what you desire. As a teenager when I was going through existential despair over the apparent futility of everything (it all leads to death, no matter what) I also revisited spiritual concepts and again, could not make myself believe regardless of how badly I wanted to.

Oops, I apologize for rambling on so much about that, it's late here. My point is that in order for me to convert, it would have taken something major. For me psycyhedelics were that thing. I cant say I wouldn't have found some other thing had I not found psychedelics though.

Quote:


Anyways, these fundamentalists aren't concerned with 'hell on earth', which can be much more accurately described without the metaphysical drama.  They're not talking about third world nations dying of starvation, nor are they talking about psychological psychosis ----they are scaring people with ideas of an afterlife full of sociopathic nazi torment by God.

What a joke.





Why do you think your opinions are more valid than anyone elses? In my opinion (and I fully recognize that is nothing more than my opinion, or more than an opinion it is simply a point of view) anyone who is warning people about hell is doing great service to humanity.

Hell is hell regardless of whether it is being experienced on planet earth in a physical body or in a different realm following the death of the physical body. I see the main cause of suffering on earth being ignorance/non awakened consciousness. Therefore I see anyone doing anything that helps awake human consciousness as doing something very positive for humanity. Warning people about hell is certain one method of waking people up out of their bad habits.

Now you may see thigns a different way but thats simply your point of view which is not really yours but is conditioned by your past experiences and your biological, psychological and spiritual makeup.

And why judge others anyway?


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Deviate]
    #19380682 - 01/07/14 02:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Valid, as in having a sound basis in logic?  This a joke?  Perhaps because the afterlife as hell doesn't bear two seconds of logical thought. Fortunately, when I try to imagine a Mind behind the Universe, I cannot conceive of that Mind, usually called "God," as TOTALLY FUCKING INSANE.

I mean, compare that "God" with the worst monsters you can think of - - Adolph Hitler, Joe Stalin, that sort of guy. None of them ever inflicted more than finite pain on their victims. Even de Sade, in his sado-maso fantasy novels, never devised an unlimited torture. The idea that the Mind of Creation (if such exists) wants to torture some of its critters for endless infinities of infinities seems too absurd to take seriously.

This idea is a total disservice to humanity, created by self-important, megalomaniac fuckwads with a deep rooted sense of moral superiority to all non-Christians. :puke:

Edit:

Maybe wake yourself up with LSD, Psilocybin, DMT, or Mescaline - and get back with me on how scaring people actually helps awaken them from a bad habit... That IS the bad habit.  Almost the same nonsense as the 'guru slap' I keep hearing about of late :lol:

:dudewtf:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Edited by CosmicJoke (01/07/14 02:36 AM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19380841 - 01/07/14 03:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

First, it must be understood that God is pure goodness (Psalm 16). He has no desire to torture any human in hell for even one second. The problem is that God is so insanely good (and yes God is insane by human standards of sanity, but humans are insane by divine standards) that evil, wicked, sinful people cannot bear his presence. In the case of judgement, God is simply the light of Truth that exposes everything for what it is. This is unbearable to the wicked because their whole sense of reality is built on untruth, as the wicked are concerned with their own gain, advancing their own ego, a non entity. An entity that cannot remain intact under the scrutiny of the light of Truth. So it is really sinnners  who unconsciously torture themselves by choosing to separate themselves from God, who is the source of all goodness because they cannot bear his other attributes. Exactly how this works and how long it goes on for or how time flows in that state of consciousness, I can't tell you.

Are the wicked doomed to suffer punishment for all eternity?  I'm not sure If you've read the Bible (and I am going to assume you have) then you should know that the Bible speaks about the fate of sinners being death, destruction and eventually, complete annihilation far more often than it speaks about them suffering continuously forever.

God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). He consumes all that is not like himself. He consumes us either in a positive way (spiritual awakening) that glorifies both us and him or in a negative way in which the unrepentant sinner is made pure through it's own destruction. Anyway, I cant find it right now but I once read a very interesting document that made a strong scriptural case that hell was not eternal.


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OfflineHalluciNate
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Chuckfinely]
    #19381013 - 01/07/14 05:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chuckfinely said:
I wouldve been a stone face athiest wihout any drug use, honestly. Pot Mushrooms for sure.




QFT

Drugs can open the door to enlightenment for you. :tunnel:

But you cannot walk through it with them.

That's why I'm abstaining from drug use. :sunny: 
Getting there without relying on anything but myself. :psychsplit:

Read The Master Game.


--------------------
We are here to assist, to teach you to evolve as we go through this process together. We give our own version of things only to bring you to a higher consciousness. No matter what situation you find yourself in, it is the power of your thoughts that got you there. It is also the impeccable belief that thought creates that will transform your experience and the planetary existence.




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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: HalluciNate]
    #19381091 - 01/07/14 06:24 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I was an atheist but through direct experience schizophrenic like symptoms manifested that soon formed into a sort of contact scenario and possession state by multiple entities.  It was the mushrooms.:mushroom2:  Its like a Dan Brown novel with me mixed with David Icke and a Beautiful Mind.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #19381458 - 01/07/14 09:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
First, it must be understood that God is pure goodness (Psalm 16). He has no desire to torture any human in hell for even one second. The problem is that God is so insanely good (and yes God is insane by human standards of sanity, but humans are insane by divine standards) that evil, wicked, sinful people cannot bear his presence. In the case of judgement, God is simply the light of Truth that exposes everything for what it is. This is unbearable to the wicked because their whole sense of reality is built on untruth, as the wicked are concerned with their own gain, advancing their own ego, a non entity. An entity that cannot remain intact under the scrutiny of the light of Truth. So it is really sinnners  who unconsciously torture themselves by choosing to separate themselves from God, who is the source of all goodness because they cannot bear his other attributes. Exactly how this works and how long it goes on for or how time flows in that state of consciousness, I can't tell you.

Are the wicked doomed to suffer punishment for all eternity?  I'm not sure If you've read the Bible (and I am going to assume you have) then you should know that the Bible speaks about the fate of sinners being death, destruction and eventually, complete annihilation far more often than it speaks about them suffering continuously forever.

God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). He consumes all that is not like himself. He consumes us either in a positive way (spiritual awakening) that glorifies both us and him or in a negative way in which the unrepentant sinner is made pure through it's own destruction. Anyway, I cant find it right now but I once read a very interesting document that made a strong scriptural case that hell was not eternal.





You're switching topics, as I asked what kind of Christian you might have became had there been no mystical experience (and instead got scared into it, say from a big wake up call like a drug overdose induced heart attack) - in which case, like it or not, many believe in eternal hellfire as a moral punishment.

As for your argument though, it's strange to me how you can mix phrases like 'unconsciously torture themselves' with 'choosing to separate themselves from God'.  Which one is it?  Unconscious or choice?  Seems like you're making a case to shift the blame off God onto the individual, yet then convoluting it even further by saying there kind of isn't a separate individual, as that's an illusion, as in reality there's only God. :rofl:  What a mess this theology is.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineChuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
Posts: 628
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: HalluciNate]
    #19381962 - 01/07/14 11:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

HalluciNate said:
Quote:

Chuckfinely said:
I wouldve been a stone face athiest wihout any drug use, honestly. Pot Mushrooms for sure.




QFT

Drugs can open the door to enlightenment for you. :tunnel:

But you cannot walk through it with them.

That's why I'm abstaining from drug use. :sunny: 
Getting there without relying on anything but myself. :psychsplit:

Read The Master Game.




Ive never heard anyone put it like that. I really like it. Ive been wondering myself what would happen to my spirituality without any intoxication, particularly opiates.

Psychedelics for sure opened my minds eye to the possibility of more than the material universe, but it was heavy opiate use that quieted my mind to the point of being able to hear the voices of eternity.

Without the extended drug use spirituality would have remained just a distant hope, a possibility, a maybe. The stillness of a decent nod, the ability to focus in on one single point, brought me to the conclusion that spirituality wasnt some fanciful fairytale but a reality we have yet to discover. I wonder how my views will change with my imminent total sobriety.


As for the whole heaven\hell thing, bleh. I dont think there is some distant land of milk and honey or a pit of eternal hell fire that youre sent to for not repenting over that stolen candy bar when you were a kid. If the idea of hell is what it takes for some people to remain moral, then i suppose it serves its purpose.

However i feel if there is this patriarchal glowing man in the clouds, he would want people in heaven because they are good, kind hearted people concerned with the troubles of others and an infinite supply of love for their fellow man, not just cause they were frightened of getting burned:shrug:
The goodness that arises from fear is not the same as goodness from the heart. Goodness that comes from fear is inspired by the material, egocentric world where fear can exist, an imperfect world where we have the capacity to think of things such as torture. I choose to believe that if there is some infinite being of goodness, he cannot even conceive the idea of hell fire and torture. I suppose that is why im not a Catholic :lol:


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19383233 - 01/07/14 03:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
First, it must be understood that God is pure goodness (Psalm 16). He has no desire to torture any human in hell for even one second. The problem is that God is so insanely good (and yes God is insane by human standards of sanity, but humans are insane by divine standards) that evil, wicked, sinful people cannot bear his presence. In the case of judgement, God is simply the light of Truth that exposes everything for what it is. This is unbearable to the wicked because their whole sense of reality is built on untruth, as the wicked are concerned with their own gain, advancing their own ego, a non entity. An entity that cannot remain intact under the scrutiny of the light of Truth. So it is really sinnners  who unconsciously torture themselves by choosing to separate themselves from God, who is the source of all goodness because they cannot bear his other attributes. Exactly how this works and how long it goes on for or how time flows in that state of consciousness, I can't tell you.

Are the wicked doomed to suffer punishment for all eternity?  I'm not sure If you've read the Bible (and I am going to assume you have) then you should know that the Bible speaks about the fate of sinners being death, destruction and eventually, complete annihilation far more often than it speaks about them suffering continuously forever.

God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). He consumes all that is not like himself. He consumes us either in a positive way (spiritual awakening) that glorifies both us and him or in a negative way in which the unrepentant sinner is made pure through it's own destruction. Anyway, I cant find it right now but I once read a very interesting document that made a strong scriptural case that hell was not eternal.





You're switching topics, as I asked what kind of Christian you might have became had there been no mystical experience (and instead got scared into it, say from a big wake up call like a drug overdose induced heart attack) - in which case, like it or not, many believe in eternal hellfire as a moral punishment.




What do you mean I am "switching" topics? I switchED topics because I already addressed the first one. I already make it clear to you that I cant answer that question because I can't envision myself changing my theological views because of having a heart attack or something like that. The only thing that I feel secure in saying would have lead to a change in my views was an encounter with something beyond the physical, beyond "ordinary reality".

"you might have became had there been no mystical experience "

You seem to be switching topics. At first it was, what kind of Christian would I have become had I not taken psychedelicds. Now it is what kind of Christian would I have become in the absence of ALL mystical experiences? I see the question itself as absurd. Its like asking me what kind of tennis player I would have become if I had never played tennis. I would not have become a Christian at all in the absence of all mystical experience.

Quote:


As for your argument though, it's strange to me how you can mix phrases like 'unconsciously torture themselves' with 'choosing to separate themselves from God'.  Which one is it?  Unconscious or choice?




WHat makes you think it the two are mutually exclusive? We make unconscious choices all the time. The human being (99% of them anyway) is not fully conscious. Even when we make what we think is a conscious choice we are being influenced by unconscious factors.

Quote:

  Seems like you're making a case to shift the blame off God onto the individual, yet then convoluting it even further by saying there kind of isn't a separate individual, as that's an illusion, as in reality there's only God. :rofl:  What a mess this theology is.




To you it may seem like a mess but the truth can never be expressed in any theology, it can only be pointed at. The argument over whether man's predicament is man's fault or God's goes back centuries and it is answerable because it is a question that stems from the mindset of separation. That is why none of this makes sense. The egoic perspective is itself the error, its the ultimate paradox. How can you expect a paradox to make sense?


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Deviate]
    #19383792 - 01/07/14 05:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I would not have become a Christian at all in the absence of all mystical experience.




My point is I'm really skeptical that this is true.  I think you very well might have became religious anyways- particularly had you experienced a close encounter with death (not to be mistaken with a NDE) like an overdose, jail, or something to stir up some serious death anxiety.  I witness people's childhood fears stirred up in such situations, and that's when that benevolent, all knowing grandma and the eternal life of Jesus suddenly makes perfect sense, as they're able to beam themselves messages of safety and security by following through with these bizarre beliefs and rituals, by being a good little boy and doing as nanna said.  No mystical union with Reality required, just a dab of dread and it's :pope: all the way.

Quote:


WHat makes you think it the two are mutually exclusive? We make unconscious choices all the time. The human being (99% of them anyway) is not fully conscious. Even when we make what we think is a conscious choice we are being influenced by unconscious factors.




Making a choice involves the mental process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one's preference.  That means the choice is in your conscious attention, like "oh, not being in these hellish delusions, yes, this is a viable option, but I think I'll just take the endless torment anyways" .  Now I could see it being argued in this particular circumstance that the unconscious, an aspect of self existing outside of the mind and one's conscious attention, was motivating that choice, because the who in their right mind would choose endless torment? 

But if they simply weren't aware of this alleged state of mystical union with Reality all together, then they are just reacting unconsciously, and there was never a choice to begin with.  Either way, it's hard to really pin the blame on anyone in such a situation.  In my estimation, death would be more like taking off a tight shoe for such a miserable person, certainly no more hellish realities await them.

But it's really a shame that life wasn't the right environment for them to grow.  Had they had the right support, which most certainly wouldn't be scaring them with threats of hellfire, but say an MDMA session with a psychotherapist, perhaps they could have worked through some of those unconscious motivations, and really ripened as an individual.

Quote:


none of this makes sense.




:highfive:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19386344 - 01/08/14 02:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, thats my point
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
I would not have become a Christian at all in the absence of all mystical experience.




My point is I'm really skeptical that this is true.  I think you very well might have became religious anyways- particularly had you experienced a close encounter with death (not to be mistaken with a NDE) like an overdose, jail, or something to stir up some serious death anxiety.  I witness people's childhood fears stirred up in such situations, and that's when that benevolent, all knowing grandma and the eternal life of Jesus suddenly makes perfect sense, as they're able to beam themselves messages of safety and security by following through with these bizarre beliefs and rituals, by being a good little boy and doing as nanna said.  No mystical union with Reality required, just a dab of dread and it's :pope: all the way.




I had many close encounters with death in the form of panic attacks. Of course I wasn't in any real danger but they were far more frightening than any of the times my life has been in actual danger and the thought of becoming a Christian did not even occur to me as a potential solution. I don't think you understand how attached people are to atheistic beliefs, it's like a religion. Changing your worldview around completely is a major ordeal, especially for deep thinking, introspective folks. Go try telling atheists that as soon as they get a little firghtened they are going to become Christians and see what kind of responses you get. When I was an atheist, just like most other atheists, i rejected everything that did not support what I already believed. I was deeply intellectually invested in a materialistic worldview, I really dont understand how you think jail or a drug overdose could change that. How would I justify it? When i was 16 I accidentally took too much DXM one time and ended up coming very near to ego loss and of course I believed 100% that I had ODed and had almost died (since I did not know there was such a thing as ego loss at that age and thought I was actually dying). The thought of becoming a Christain did not even occur to me. It was a good experience none the less as I did gain a little appreciation for life after feeling as though I had lost mine and I remember the world looked especially beautiful the next morning but I don't recall even thinking about religion. I've also been to jail and again I fail to see how you could possibly think that would convert me. What does jail have to do with the nature of existence?

Quote:


WHat makes you think it the two are mutually exclusive? We make unconscious choices all the time. The human being (99% of them anyway) is not fully conscious. Even when we make what we think is a conscious choice we are being influenced by unconscious factors.




Making a choice involves the mental process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one's preference.  That means the choice is in your conscious attention, like "oh, not being in these hellish delusions, yes, this is a viable option, but I think I'll just take the endless torment anyways" .  Now I could see it being argued in this particular circumstance that the unconscious, an aspect of self existing outside of the mind and one's conscious attention, was motivating that choice, because the who in their right mind would choose endless torment? 

But if they simply weren't aware of this alleged state of mystical union with Reality all together, then they are just reacting unconsciously, and there was never a choice to begin with.  Either way, it's hard to really pin the blame on anyone in such a situation.  In my estimation, death would be more like taking off a tight shoe for such a miserable person, certainly no more hellish realities await them.

But it's really a shame that life wasn't the right environment for them to grow.  Had they had the right support, which most certainly wouldn't be scaring them with threats of hellfire, but say an MDMA session with a psychotherapist, perhaps they could have worked through some of those unconscious motivations, and really ripened as an individual.

Quote:


none of this makes sense.




:highfive:




Well part of  my point was that this society is very far from an ideal place for people to grow and it is unfortunate.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Deviate]
    #19388906 - 01/08/14 04:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You butchered that reply from your last post, made it seem as though you said things I had and vice versa.

Quote:

Deviate said:
I had many close encounters with death in the form of panic attacks. Of course I wasn't in any real danger but they were far more frightening than any of the times my life has been in actual danger and the thought of becoming a Christian did not even occur to me as a potential solution. I don't think you understand how attached people are to atheistic beliefs, it's like a religion. Changing your worldview around completely is a major ordeal, especially for deep thinking, introspective folks. Go try telling atheists that as soon as they get a little firghtened they are going to become Christians and see what kind of responses you get. When I was an atheist, just like most other atheists, i rejected everything that did not support what I already believed. I was deeply intellectually invested in a materialistic worldview, I really dont understand how you think jail or a drug overdose could change that. How would I justify it? When i was 16 I accidentally took too much DXM one time and ended up coming very near to ego loss and of course I believed 100% that I had ODed and had almost died (since I did not know there was such a thing as ego loss at that age and thought I was actually dying). The thought of becoming a Christain did not even occur to me. It was a good experience none the less as I did gain a little appreciation for life after feeling as though I had lost mine and I remember the world looked especially beautiful the next morning but I don't recall even thinking about religion. I've also been to jail and again I fail to see how you could possibly think that would convert me. What does jail have to do with the nature of existence?




Because I hear these stories all the time, and having some kind of brush with death or finding one has a terminal illness often is a reason some (but certainly not all) atheists will convert.  I've also seen many stories of people "finding God" in prison (though unsurprisingly, this does not seem to reduce their recidivism rate).  It's hard to say their motives, maybe they're just trying to impress their parole board with a sinner to saint story, as everyone loves a good redemption story.  Sometimes it seems to help curry favor with a society that is largely Christian, gain them favor with the public, and help them reintegrate into society. Other times I think people do seem to want to start again, and the whole "born again" motif has a lot of allure for somebody who has majorly fucked up their life.

Atheist -> Drug Abuse -> Jail -> Christian does not surprise me in the slightest :shrug:, seems like a totally plausible survival coping mechanism.

If statistics were available for all atheists who have converted to religious belief, how many do you think would attribute that to some sort of experience with merging with the Universe or an incredible synchronicity that made them question if there was order to the Universe or something of that nature?  You think the vast majority? Honestly, I don't.

Quote:


Well part of  my point was that this society is very far from an ideal place for people to grow and it is unfortunate.




Won't argue that mate.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Edited by CosmicJoke (01/08/14 04:15 PM)


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Invisiblehmmn


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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19389356 - 01/08/14 05:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I said maybe.  Drug use had a lot to do with my developing an interest in Buddhism and in spirituality in general, but I don't know what would have happened had I not used drugs.  Perhaps I would have found these things another way. :shrug:


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: hmmn]
    #19392091 - 01/09/14 04:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Because I hear these stories all the time, and having some kind of brush with death or finding one has a terminal illness often is a reason some (but certainly not all) atheists will convert.  I've also seen many stories of people "finding God" in prison (though unsurprisingly, this does not seem to reduce their recidivism rate).  It's hard to say their motives, maybe they're just trying to impress their parole board with a sinner to saint story, as everyone loves a good redemption story.  Sometimes it seems to help curry favor with a society that is largely Christian, gain them favor with the public, and help them reintegrate into society. Other times I think people do seem to want to start again, and the whole "born again" motif has a lot of allure for somebody who has majorly fucked up their life.

Atheist -> Drug Abuse -> Jail -> Christian does not surprise me in the slightest :shrug:, seems like a totally plausible survival coping mechanism.

If statistics were available for all atheists who have converted to religious belief, how many do you think would attribute that to some sort of experience with merging with the Universe or an incredible synchronicity that made them question if there was order to the Universe or something of that nature?  You think the vast majority? Honestly, I don't.






But just because the majority of converts may not have converted based on some mystical experience does not mean you need to lump me in with that majority and refuse to believe me when I offered up my own experiences that seem to indicate otherwise. I mean your argument is like saying to someone, "90% of the dogs I've seen in this town are brown, therefore your dog is brown" than that person says "Indeed there are a lot of brown dogs in this town but my dog is black". Then you say "I am really skeptical that your dog is black. Most dogs are brown, therefore your dog is brown".

Now while it could be true that mystical experiences don't play a role in the majority of religious conversions, I am absolutely convinced that there is a considerable subset of the population of atheists in which mystical experiences are the primary reason for conversion. It depends on one's personality type.

You know that not all atheists are the deep thinking, introspective, introverted variety. Not all atheists are as committed to atheism as others. THere are some who just never really thought much about religion because they were too busy doing other things. People become more religious in prison because they have nothing else to do, they can't live lives of crime anymore so they figure they might as well give faith a try and some just pretend to be converts for the parole board. Not all the prisoners who "find God" in prison were necessarily hardcore atheist before that, most prisoners have some kind of spiritual beliefs before they enter prison they often just aren't particularly committed to them, so prison conversions prove absolutely nothing.  Many of these prisoners are not exactly Immanual Kants or Socrates either (not that I am but you get my point). So these kinds of examples are pretty useless when it comes to understanding what would lead an intelligent, deep thinking atheist who is very committed to a materialistic worldview, to convert.

DO you see the problem with lumping all atheists together? There is a huge difference between an atheist who has a strong interest in the nature of existence and reads philosophy and meditates on these questions his whole life, vs some guy who never really thought about these questions, gets busted robbing a convenience store and allows himself to be converted to southern baptist by a prison preacher. I do not understand how you think it makes sense to lump these people together.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Deviate]
    #19392481 - 01/09/14 07:05 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I don't particularly agree with you, I think an atheist who was "introspective" would probably have developed an interest in psychology.  An atheist with a strong interest on "the nature of existence" might have taken an interest in the hard sciences, and perhaps went on to study physics in college. 

However, an atheist looking for answers about the 'nature of existence' from the philosophers of antiquity is already of great suspect to ultimately convert to religious belief imho. It's one thing to want a solid understanding of the history and culture that these philosophers were born out of and try to get into their mind, and really understand why they were thinking the way they did.  It's quite another to put any real stock into their contributions as even possibly having any actual insight into the 'nature of existence', that is their contribution to the realm of philosophy known as metaphysics. Do you at all see how your beliefs then might have already had many parallels to religious thinking?


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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