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Offlineimachavel
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You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market
    #19382099 - 01/07/14 12:01 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

And they are right. We don't need people telling other people who can pay what. After all, this is democracy, and freedom.

I was also thinking, based on that philosophy, I don't really think we need police either. I mean after all democracy is about freedom. Think about all the freedom that laws displace, you know police and the federal government controlling the military upset a natural balance. In a free world, authority would be decided by the majority of people, the crowd. A large crowd of 100 or more would decide how to tell who is stealing, what should be done to them, what life thieves and violent people should have etc. Who are the police to interrupt true freedom? The police are like the minimum wage, it creates a false idea that people can't function or behave on their own without court and law etc.

Should we have bail outs and minimum wage and jail and police? HELL NO :facepalm: I can't believe I didn't understand until now

rules and laws hurt freedom :smirk: I mean the sooner we get rid of minimum wage the sooner people start seeing what freedom actually is and we can get rid of the police as well. If only I took more economic classes, I'd get all this supply and demand stuff already. Just like police, there isn't enough "demand" for them :rolleyes: just constant supply and the court system is hurting the free market


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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InvisibleSalomon
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: imachavel] * 3
    #19382111 - 01/07/14 12:03 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

lol yea!  then corporations can pay people $2 an hour or say fuck you we're outsourcing to china, then call em a bitch.


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EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT



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OfflineP.Zappatecorum
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Salomon] * 3
    #19382135 - 01/07/14 12:09 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Yeah, because it's not fair that only the Chinese get sweatshop slave jobs making Iphones.  While we're at it, let's remove the working minimum age so we can put little children to work in jobs where their little fingers have an advantage.  I can't wait until we're all earning a dollar a week working 14 hours a day in a giant, windowless Walmart factory we can't afford to leave having meals denied us when we don't make our quotas.  Freedom sounds fucking AWESOME!
:innocentjoy:  :hahyeahwoo:  :yaysugar:


Edited by P.Zappatecorum (01/07/14 12:10 PM)


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OnlineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Salomon]
    #19382139 - 01/07/14 12:10 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Laws are meant to protect peoples freedoms. Not sure where your coming from with this to be honest. Take a look at the early 20th century if you wanna see how extremely loose or non-existent business and economic regulations worked out.


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OfflineHerbologist
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #19382148 - 01/07/14 12:12 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

A large crowd would decide the fate of criminals?

Rarely does 'Mob Justice' actually have any real justice.


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Shroomery Law:  Don't piss off the leftist mods & their friends! :banhamster:


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OfflineThe5thElement
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Herbologist]
    #19382190 - 01/07/14 12:21 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Yeah I think I'm going to vote for the Keep the Police, fuck the Mad Max road warrior scenario...

Also keeping the minimum wage thing.... Who the shit's going to ring up my slurpee at the 7/11 store at 3 am? Not me that's for fucking sure :sip:


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OfflineShiVersblood
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: The5thElement]
    #19382209 - 01/07/14 12:26 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

If there was no minimum wage, My boss would probably try to change what I make to only 1 Dollar an hour. That would be fucked up. A lot of the cheap labor force would all quit over night. And then the unemployment rate would skyrocket to 450% of all americans in the usa. I would instantly quit my job if the minnimum wage was abolished and my wages were changed to only 1 dollar an hour. And I would just live with my parents.

People are not morons. They are not going to work for 1 dollar an hour. The minimum wage needs to not be getten rid of.


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OfflineP.Zappatecorum
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: ShiVersblood]
    #19382245 - 01/07/14 12:33 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

ShiVersblood said:
If there was no minimum wage, My boss would probably try to change what I make to only 1 Dollar an hour. That would be fucked up. A lot of the cheap labor force would all quit over night. And then the unemployment rate would skyrocket to 450% of all americans in the usa. I would instantly quit my job if the minnimum wage was abolished and my wages were changed to only 1 dollar an hour. And I would just live with my parents.

People are not morons. They are not going to work for 1 dollar an hour. The minimum wage needs to not be getten rid of.




Um, people need to eat dude.  You clearly have not read any history books or are just so entitled and bourgeois that you can't comprehend that a lot of people aren't in a situation where they can just quit their job and go crying to mommy and daddy. 
:notcoolman:


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OfflineKremrBigSikter
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
    #19382255 - 01/07/14 12:36 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

The invisible hand will fix EVERYTHING.


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I have pneumonia :pm:



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OfflineShiVersblood
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
    #19382263 - 01/07/14 12:38 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

P.Zappatecorum said:
Quote:

ShiVersblood said:
If there was no minimum wage, My boss would probably try to change what I make to only 1 Dollar an hour. That would be fucked up. A lot of the cheap labor force would all quit over night. And then the unemployment rate would skyrocket to 450% of all americans in the usa. I would instantly quit my job if the minnimum wage was abolished and my wages were changed to only 1 dollar an hour. And I would just live with my parents.

People are not morons. They are not going to work for 1 dollar an hour. The minimum wage needs to not be getten rid of.




Um, people need to eat dude.  You clearly have not read any history books or are just so entitled and bourgeois that you can't comprehend that a lot of people aren't in a situation where they can just quit their job and go crying to mommy and daddy. 
:notcoolman:




Well you would be losing money to go to work if you only made 1 dollar an hour because of the price of gas to get there.


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Onlinekoods
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: ShiVersblood] * 1
    #19382307 - 01/07/14 12:50 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Free market principles do not apply to labor. One of the requirements of a free market is that participants are free to enter and leave the market without restriction and that the price is only consideration. If your only concern in employment was your wage, and you could take it or leave it, then labor would be subject to normal supply/demand forces. However, people need to work and wage often takes a backseat to other considerations. The mere fact that healthcare is so tied to employment completely skews the labor market. Instead of being free to leave the labor pool or negotiate higher wages, people are often chained to their current job due to health concerns.


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OfflineP.Zappatecorum
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: ShiVersblood]
    #19382643 - 01/07/14 02:05 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

ShiVersblood said:
Quote:

P.Zappatecorum said:
Quote:

ShiVersblood said:
If there was no minimum wage, My boss would probably try to change what I make to only 1 Dollar an hour. That would be fucked up. A lot of the cheap labor force would all quit over night. And then the unemployment rate would skyrocket to 450% of all americans in the usa. I would instantly quit my job if the minnimum wage was abolished and my wages were changed to only 1 dollar an hour. And I would just live with my parents.

People are not morons. They are not going to work for 1 dollar an hour. The minimum wage needs to not be getten rid of.




Um, people need to eat dude.  You clearly have not read any history books or are just so entitled and bourgeois that you can't comprehend that a lot of people aren't in a situation where they can just quit their job and go crying to mommy and daddy. 
:notcoolman:




Well you would be losing money to go to work if you only made 1 dollar an hour because of the price of gas to get there.




That's why they will make dorms for you to live in, because you're going to be too broke to afford a house away from work or a car to drive there anyway.  You do realize that large segments of the world's populations live on a few dollars a week and work in near slavery conditions don't you?

http://cubiclebot.com/pictures/a-look-inside-foxconns-employee-dormitories/

And in case you think that's just in other countries, the same shit used to go down in the US as well, if you haven't heard of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory, you need to educate yourself on the history of Labor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire


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OfflineShiVersblood
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
    #19382649 - 01/07/14 02:07 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Such a life would be just like prison! Land of the free prison style.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
    #19382665 - 01/07/14 02:10 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

P.Zappatecorum said:
Yeah, because it's not fair that only the Chinese get sweatshop slave jobs making Iphones.  While we're at it, let's remove the working minimum age so we can put little children to work in jobs where their little fingers have an advantage.  I can't wait until we're all earning a dollar a week working 14 hours a day in a giant, windowless Walmart factory we can't afford to leave having meals denied us when we don't make our quotas.  Freedom sounds fucking AWESOME!
:innocentjoy:  :hahyeahwoo:  :yaysugar:


:bobmarley:


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InvisibleSynthe
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: imachavel]
    #19382743 - 01/07/14 02:23 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

If that's freedom, lock me up and throw away the key


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
    #19382760 - 01/07/14 02:26 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

P.Zappatecorum said:
Quote:

ShiVersblood said:
http://cubiclebot.com/pictures/a-look-inside-foxconns-employee-dormitories/

And in case you think that's just in other countries, the same shit used to go down in the US as well, if you haven't heard of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory, you need to educate yourself on the history of Labor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire




That's what China does. They make dorms for you to live there and give you really cheap shit food (rice and soup everyday) for you to eat. And the dorms are gated in with heavily-armed security guards like prison, to prevent people from escaping.


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OfflineShiVersblood
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Crystal G]
    #19383325 - 01/07/14 04:00 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

freedom in the market hurts the little man because he dont get his money


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OfflineViscousGoo
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #19383417 - 01/07/14 04:13 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
Laws are meant to protect peoples freedoms.



:dielaughing:


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
    #19383478 - 01/07/14 04:20 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

P.Zappatecorum said:
Yeah, because it's not fair that only the Chinese get sweatshop slave jobs making Iphones.  While we're at it, let's remove the working minimum age so we can put little children to work in jobs where their little fingers have an advantage.  I can't wait until we're all earning a dollar a week working 14 hours a day in a giant, windowless Walmart factory we can't afford to leave having meals denied us when we don't make our quotas.  Freedom sounds fucking AWESOME!
:innocentjoy:  :hahyeahwoo:  :yaysugar:




but dude, you are arguing the free market. :facepalm: why according to everyone else, you and me are uneducated idiots because we didn't take economic classes. I mean, in the free market, we would be WILLING to work for $1 a week in a giant, windowless Walmart factory. I mean, for us to suggest a higher minimum wage, is like criminal or whatever. If people are WILLING to be slaves for $1 a week in a windowless Walmart factory then Jesus by all means who are we to argue this.

After all, people who understand "supply and demand curves" because I guess they took economic classes in college or whatever and know as much about economics as Bill Gates I guess have told me that since I don't understand economics, I wouldn't really know what the world would be like without a minimum wage



dude we are kind of missing out because of our ignorance or whatever not accepting or understanding the true way of things in economics that when people get paid whatever they will take for a biscuit then like society is perfect :kingtard:


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: ShiVersblood]
    #19383504 - 01/07/14 04:23 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

ShiVersblood said:
If there was no minimum wage, My boss would probably try to change what I make to only 1 Dollar an hour.




are you sure? :flowstone: but that is not how the free market is supposed to work. Boy gee I sure wish I was smart and took a class that taught me high corporate "demand curves" so I could know that it's not true that your boss would pay you $1 an hour. According to like people and stuff, without a MINIMUM wage you could NEGOTIATE whatever you wanted :trollmove:


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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OfflineShiVersblood
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: imachavel]
    #19383511 - 01/07/14 04:25 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

My boss is a dick he wouldnt listen to negotiation so that wouldn't work. Im pretty sure he would decrease the pay not raise it, if minnimum wage was abolished by the republicans.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: ShiVersblood]
    #19383584 - 01/07/14 04:36 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

yeah I have been sort of being sarcastic in this thread in case no one has picked up on that :smirk:

I have seen no evidence that removing the minimum wage wouldn't turn our country into a pile of horse shit like Somalia. That free market bullshit doesn't apply to a country with a government that sets interest rates, subsidizes, allows lobbying etc.

If I saw proof it would work, I'd be for throwing away the minimum wage. But honestly aside from some bullshit philosophy a few people have been throwing around showing me some instance in where negotiating wages leads to high pay, I'd have to be deaf, dumb, on crack and dying of a disease to believe for two fucking seconds that getting rid of a minimum wage would make a free America.

Likewise is the argument about getting rid of police and law and court and letting "free authority" allow people to determine what is right and wrong that people will naturally be kind but at the same time firm and neighbourhoods will be made by families again that trust in safety etc. Well we know that won't work for shit :lolwut: so what in the world makes anyone think a "free market" without "minimum wage" would work? Just retarded theoretical philosophy that would work in Narnia?

Well where is Narnia again? In my closet? I want to move there and live in this land where people can negotiate a good living in this country and minimum wage is 100% un necessary. Could you imagine if this was introduced to congress? How many people would just die laughing? :laugh2:


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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Onlinekoods
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: ShiVersblood]
    #19383587 - 01/07/14 04:37 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

ShiVersblood said:
My boss is a dick he wouldnt listen to negotiation so that wouldn't work. Im pretty sure he would decrease the pay not raise it, if minnimum wage was abolished by the republicans.




But then you could just quit your job, because it's a free market and your price per hour is the only thing important to you.

Oh, another property of a free market is that transactions are transparent. You have to know what people are paying and for what. When have you not been told that your salary is not to be discussed?


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlineteamkiller
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: koods]
    #19383619 - 01/07/14 04:44 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Well where is Narnia again? In my closet? I want to move there and live in this land where people can negotiate a good living in this country and minimum wage is 100% un necessary.





hahaha lol.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: koods] * 1
    #19383812 - 01/07/14 05:14 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Free market principles do not apply to labor. One of the requirements of a free market is that participants are free to enter and leave the market without restriction and that the price is only consideration. If your only concern in employment was your wage, and you could take it or leave it, then labor would be subject to normal supply/demand forces. However, people need to work and wage often takes a backseat to other considerations. The mere fact that healthcare is so tied to employment completely skews the labor market. Instead of being free to leave the labor pool or negotiate higher wages, people are often chained to their current job due to health concerns.




You are free to leave any job.  You are free to abandon the conventional work force entirely and live a hunter gatherer existence.  Why should anybody else be on the hook for your health concerns, your shelter concerns, your food concerns, any of your concerns?  Make your own way if you don't like the deal.  Make your own company.  Sell your own goods.  You are not chained to being a drone unless you are a talentless unimaginative hack with no skill.  Be a commissioned salesperson.  Be a contractor.  Stop fucking whining.

Less than 3% of American workers make minimum wage.  Raising is supposed to do what, exactly?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/dec/08/rob-portman/rob-portman-says-about-2-percent-americans-get-pai/


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: koods]
    #19383817 - 01/07/14 05:15 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

ShiVersblood said:
My boss is a dick he wouldnt listen to negotiation so that wouldn't work. Im pretty sure he would decrease the pay not raise it, if minnimum wage was abolished by the republicans.




But then you could just quit your job, because it's a free market and your price per hour is the only thing important to you.

Oh, another property of a free market is that transactions are transparent. You have to know what people are paying and for what. When have you not been told that your salary is not to be discussed?



Anybody else's wage is none of your fucking business.


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Invisiblememes
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19383893 - 01/07/14 05:28 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

:notsureif:


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Offlinefapjack
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #19383905 - 01/07/14 05:30 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You are free to abandon the conventional work force entirely and live a hunter gatherer existence.




No you can't, where are you going to live?  You need to pay taxes to own land and you need to own land to be a hunter gatherer.


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OfflineShiVersblood
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19383926 - 01/07/14 05:32 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

So u want all poor people to become hunter gather people? Uhhh...... Wtf....


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: fapjack]
    #19383979 - 01/07/14 05:42 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You are free to abandon the conventional work force entirely and live a hunter gatherer existence.




No you can't, where are you going to live?  You need to pay taxes to own land and you need to own land to be a hunter gatherer.




Yes you can.  Go to Alaska.  Why did you chop my post?  It wasn't that long.  That was just one of the alternatives I offered.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: ShiVersblood]
    #19383986 - 01/07/14 05:43 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

ShiVersblood said:
So u want all poor people to become hunter gather people? Uhhh...... Wtf....





No.  I want whiners to stop whining that they are trapped on the wheel.  Unimaginative, talentless and lazy hacks.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: ShiVersblood]
    #19383999 - 01/07/14 05:45 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

To all of you advocating that minimum salary shouldn't exist;

We are not in the 1940s anymore, you should grab a couple of history books to catch up and get up with the times.

Truth is, people are much better off now than when there was no minimum salary. We have human rights now, laws that prevents abuse, regulations to prevent extreme variations in the market, hell women have the right to vote!

Quit bitching that the minimum salary hurts employment and whatnot. It's been around the world for several decades and people still managed to jobs, businesses survived, some thrived and billionaires were even made.

All you need is to bring your train of thoughts to the reality of today instead of dreaming of the misery that was yesterday


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Patlal]
    #19384032 - 01/07/14 05:50 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
To all of you advocating that minimum salary shouldn't exist;

We are not in the 1940s anymore, you should grab a couple of history books to catch up and get up with the times.

Truth is, people are much better off now than when there was no minimum salary. We have human rights now, laws that prevents abuse, regulations to prevent extreme variations in the market, hell women have the right to vote!


  Are you saying that we have those things because we have a minimum wage?
Quote:



Quit bitching that the minimum salary hurts employment and whatnot. It's been around the world for several decades and people still managed to jobs, businesses survived, some thrived and billionaires were even made.




Business doesn't really care.  If labor costs for everybody go up the industries that can more easily eliminate labor will.
Quote:



All you need is to bring your train of thoughts to the reality of today instead of dreaming of the misery that was yesterday




Almost nobody makes minimum wage


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384072 - 01/07/14 05:55 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

You are free to leave any job.  You are free to abandon the conventional work force entirely and live a hunter gatherer existence.  Why should anybody else be on the hook for your health concerns, your shelter concerns, your food concerns, any of your concerns?  Make your own way if you don't like the deal.  Make your own company.  Sell your own goods.  You are not chained to being a drone unless you are a talentless unimaginative hack with no skill.  Be a commissioned salesperson.  Be a contractor.  Stop fucking whining.



You can do any of those things. It doesn't change the fact that labor is not a "free" market. Real people can't just refuse to take a job because the employer doesn't meet their price for their labor.

Why don't you stop whining. Stop complaining that your theoretical freedom to negotiate your wage as you please is being infringed. It never existed in the first place, and a minimum wage isn't going to affect your value as a skilled worker anyhow. Maybe there will be increased costs passed on to consumers. If so it would be minimal, and worth having a society where people can live off their 40 hour a week job. Fucking selfish, Ayn Rand-style sociopathy is all we hear from you.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
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OfflinePatlal
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: koods]
    #19384089 - 01/07/14 05:59 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Also, if you want cheap labor, you go to china. As long as there a large portion of the population that can be exploited, prices will stay low enough for the rest of the population.


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OfflineShiVersblood
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384135 - 01/07/14 06:07 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

What do you mean no one makes minimal wage? I only make minimal wage god damnit


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Patlal]
    #19384147 - 01/07/14 06:11 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Also, if you want cheap labor, you go to china. As long as there a large portion of the population that can be exploited, prices will stay low enough for the rest of the population.




This is a good point. lower wages ripple throughout the workforce.


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NotSheekle said
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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384158 - 01/07/14 06:13 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ShiVersblood said:
So u want all poor people to become hunter gather people? Uhhh...... Wtf....




No.  I want whiners to stop whining that they are trapped on the wheel.  Unimaginative, talentless and lazy hacks.




What if somebody is mentally handicapped and has like Down's Syndrome or something? The entire reason they are given work and can afford living expenses is because of non-discrimination laws and minimum wage.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: koods]
    #19384186 - 01/07/14 06:20 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

You are free to leave any job.  You are free to abandon the conventional work force entirely and live a hunter gatherer existence.  Why should anybody else be on the hook for your health concerns, your shelter concerns, your food concerns, any of your concerns?  Make your own way if you don't like the deal.  Make your own company.  Sell your own goods.  You are not chained to being a drone unless you are a talentless unimaginative hack with no skill.  Be a commissioned salesperson.  Be a contractor.  Stop fucking whining.



You can do any of those things. It doesn't change the fact that labor is not a "free" market.




If you can do those things you are free to exploit your labor.
Quote:

Real people can't just refuse to take a job because the employer doesn't meet their price for their labor.




Real People?  Really?  Less than 3%.  I see Real People working for themselves all the time.  Hundreds and hundreds of them.

In what way is an employer required to meet the employees demands.  Do you know what I did with employees who wanted things I wasn't willing to give?  Allowed them to quit and go work for my competition.  Some of them did.  Bye.
Quote:



Why don't you stop whining. Stop complaining that your theoretical freedom to negotiate your wage as you please is being infringed. It never existed in the first place, and a minimum wage isn't going to affect your value as a skilled worker anyhow. Maybe there will be increased costs passed on to consumers. If so it would be minimal, and worth having a society where people can live off their 40 hour a week job. Fucking selfish, Ayn Rand-style sociopathy is all we hear from you.




Less that 3% of the population makes minimum wage.  In some cheap industries that make shit with talentless drones who can only make minimum wage the prices will go up for the crap that poor people buy.  Unless they can buy machines to do it for less.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #19384198 - 01/07/14 06:22 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Less that 3% of the population makes minimum wage.  In some cheap industries that make shit with talentless drones who can only make minimum wage the prices will go up for the crap that poor people buy.  Unless they can buy machines to do it for less.




Did you ever consider that the reason people make more than minimum wage, is because minimum wage sets the standard and the precedent for what would compel companies to offer a higher and more appealable wage?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Crystal G]
    #19384203 - 01/07/14 06:23 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ShiVersblood said:
So u want all poor people to become hunter gather people? Uhhh...... Wtf....




No.  I want whiners to stop whining that they are trapped on the wheel.  Unimaginative, talentless and lazy hacks.




What if somebody is mentally handicapped and has like Down's Syndrome or something? The entire reason they are given work and can afford living expenses is because of non-discrimination laws and minimum wage.




They are given work out of charity.  Minimum wage laws probably inhibit their opportunities to live meaningful lives wherein they can take pride in making a contribution and doing things.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384218 - 01/07/14 06:26 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
They are given work out of charity.  Minimum wage laws probably inhibit their opportunities to live meaningful lives wherein they can take pride in making a contribution and doing things.




What can somebody who is mentally handicapped do, except maybe being a motivational speaker and working at Starbucks or something?


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Crystal G]
    #19384224 - 01/07/14 06:27 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Less that 3% of the population makes minimum wage.  In some cheap industries that make shit with talentless drones who can only make minimum wage the prices will go up for the crap that poor people buy.  Unless they can buy machines to do it for less.




Did you ever consider that the reason people make more than minimum wage, is because minimum wage sets the standard and the precedent for what would compel companies to offer a higher and more appealable wage?




Bing bing bing. This2


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NotSheekle said
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Crystal G]
    #19384234 - 01/07/14 06:28 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Less that 3% of the population makes minimum wage.  In some cheap industries that make shit with talentless drones who can only make minimum wage the prices will go up for the crap that poor people buy.  Unless they can buy machines to do it for less.




Did you ever consider that the reason people make more than minimum wage, is because minimum wage sets the standard and the precedent for what would compel companies to offer a higher and more appealable wage?



Yes, I have heard the argument.  I find it to be nonsense.  Let me repeat this.  Less than 3% of workers make minimum wage.  The greatest negative impact of raising the minimum wage will befall those making minimum wage.  They will be replaced by machines when they can be and their jobs will be sent to Bangladesh when they can be.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Crystal G]
    #19384249 - 01/07/14 06:32 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
They are given work out of charity.  Minimum wage laws probably inhibit their opportunities to live meaningful lives wherein they can take pride in making a contribution and doing things.




What can somebody who is mentally handicapped do, except maybe being a motivational speaker and working at Starbucks or something?



We have several of them bagging groceries at the supermarkets where I live.  I'm going to guess that their pay is subsidized to a certain extent.  I don't mind that I'm probably footing some of that bill.  They can do the job and it gives them something.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384264 - 01/07/14 06:34 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Less that 3% of the population makes minimum wage.  In some cheap industries that make shit with talentless drones who can only make minimum wage the prices will go up for the crap that poor people buy.  Unless they can buy machines to do it for less.




Did you ever consider that the reason people make more than minimum wage, is because minimum wage sets the standard and the precedent for what would compel companies to offer a higher and more appealable wage?



Yes, I have heard the argument.  I find it to be nonsense.  Let me repeat this.  Less than 3% of workers make minimum wage.  The greatest negative impact of raising the minimum wage will befall those making minimum wage.  They will be replaced by machines when they can be and their jobs will be sent to Bangladesh when they can be.




So you think that American people should compete with Bangladesh factory workers? I mean, creating that level of poverty in this country is actually bad for the economy. When people are rich and have money, they participate more in consumerism and in the market.

Tech jobs are also constantly being outsourced to India because they will do it for a third of the price Americans demand, auto makers assemble their parts in Mexico to save costs, companies will always find any way to cut costs. If the only way to keep jobs in America is by competing with countries that pay a couple bucks for an entire day's work, is it really worth it?


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384277 - 01/07/14 06:35 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
They are given work out of charity.  Minimum wage laws probably inhibit their opportunities to live meaningful lives wherein they can take pride in making a contribution and doing things.




What can somebody who is mentally handicapped do, except maybe being a motivational speaker and working at Starbucks or something?



We have several of them bagging groceries at the supermarkets where I live.  I'm going to guess that their pay is subsidized to a certain extent.  I don't mind that I'm probably footing some of that bill.  They can do the job and it gives them something.




So then, don't you think that those mentally handicapped workers deserve a minimum wage? Because I'm pretty sure those guys are only making minimum wage. And if minimum wage didn't exist, how much would they be making an hour? $5? $3? $2?


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384279 - 01/07/14 06:36 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Less that 3% of the population makes minimum wage.  In some cheap industries that make shit with talentless drones who can only make minimum wage the prices will go up for the crap that poor people buy.  Unless they can buy machines to do it for less.




Did you ever consider that the reason people make more than minimum wage, is because minimum wage sets the standard and the precedent for what would compel companies to offer a higher and more appealable wage?



Yes, I have heard the argument.  I find it to be nonsense.  Let me repeat this.  Less than 3% of workers make minimum wage.  The greatest negative impact of raising the minimum wage will befall those making minimum wage.  They will be replaced by machines when they can be and their jobs will be sent to Bangladesh when they can be.





Actually. It's 4.6% when you include people making LESS than federal minimum wage. It is probably much higher than when you account for people making state minimum wage.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Crystal G]
    #19384321 - 01/07/14 06:42 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Less that 3% of the population makes minimum wage.  In some cheap industries that make shit with talentless drones who can only make minimum wage the prices will go up for the crap that poor people buy.  Unless they can buy machines to do it for less.




Did you ever consider that the reason people make more than minimum wage, is because minimum wage sets the standard and the precedent for what would compel companies to offer a higher and more appealable wage?



Yes, I have heard the argument.  I find it to be nonsense.  Let me repeat this.  Less than 3% of workers make minimum wage.  The greatest negative impact of raising the minimum wage will befall those making minimum wage.  They will be replaced by machines when they can be and their jobs will be sent to Bangladesh when they can be.




So you think that American people should compete with Bangladesh factory workers? I mean, creating that level of poverty in this country is actually bad for the economy. When people are rich and have money, they participate more in consumerism and in the market.




Of course American workers compete with Bangladeshi factory workers.  It makes goods cheaper.  That is the essence of successful commerce.  Make it better, make it cheaper.  The American worker can compete in quality or he can compete with advantageous shipping protocols, i.e. it costs a lot less to send a widget from Toledo to NY than it does from Quandzhou.
Quote:



Tech jobs are also constantly being outsourced to India because they will do it for a third of the price Americans demand, auto makers assemble their parts in Mexico to save costs, companies will always find any way to cut costs. If the only way to keep jobs in America is by competing with countries that pay a couple bucks for an entire day's work, is it really worth it?




Yes.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384335 - 01/07/14 06:45 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Less that 3% of the population makes minimum wage.  In some cheap industries that make shit with talentless drones who can only make minimum wage the prices will go up for the crap that poor people buy.  Unless they can buy machines to do it for less.




Did you ever consider that the reason people make more than minimum wage, is because minimum wage sets the standard and the precedent for what would compel companies to offer a higher and more appealable wage?



Yes, I have heard the argument.  I find it to be nonsense.  Let me repeat this.  Less than 3% of workers make minimum wage.  The greatest negative impact of raising the minimum wage will befall those making minimum wage.  They will be replaced by machines when they can be and their jobs will be sent to Bangladesh when they can be.





Actually. It's 4.6% when you include people making LESS than federal minimum wage. It is probably much higher than when you account for people making state minimum wage.




http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/dec/08/rob-portman/rob-portman-says-about-2-percent-americans-get-pai/

I posted this before


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384354 - 01/07/14 06:49 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Actually. It's 4.6% when you include people making LESS than federal minimum wage. It is probably much higher than when you account for people making state minimum wage.




http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/dec/08/rob-portman/rob-portman-says-about-2-percent-americans-get-pai/

I posted this before




Bear in mind that is for the federal minimum wage. Many states have significantly higher minimum wages than the federal wage, so by calculating federal minimum wage workers only, it automatically excludes millions of people who make the state minimum wage.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Crystal G]
    #19384395 - 01/07/14 06:56 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Actually. It's 4.6% when you include people making LESS than federal minimum wage. It is probably much higher than when you account for people making state minimum wage.




http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/dec/08/rob-portman/rob-portman-says-about-2-percent-americans-get-pai/

I posted this before




Bear in mind that is for the federal minimum wage. Many states have significantly higher minimum wages than the federal wage, so by calculating federal minimum wage workers only, it automatically excludes millions of people who make the state minimum wage.



You do know that the discussion is about raising the federal minimum wage, right?


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: ShiVersblood]
    #19384427 - 01/07/14 07:01 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

ShiVersblood said:
Such a life would be just like prison! Land of the free prison style.




I litterally cannot believe what this guy was just saying to you. I would be with the 450% and just start looting shit. Fuck it.


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: imachavel]
    #19384536 - 01/07/14 07:22 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Why not?  We have had five years of liberal economic policy failures, I would like to see this one fail too.


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: mpd]
    #19384618 - 01/07/14 07:36 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

I'm going to go with the Bureau of labor statistics, not rob Portman.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2012.htm

Quote:

In 2012, 75.3 million workers in the United States age 16 and over were paid at hourly rates, representing 59.0 percent of all wage and salary workers. 1 Among those paid by the hour, 1.6 million earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 2.0 million had wages below the federal minimum.2 Together, these 3.6 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 4.7 percent of all hourly paid workers




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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: koods]
    #19384626 - 01/07/14 07:37 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

koods i dont get it, give me layman terms.


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: DebuteMachine]
    #19384656 - 01/07/14 07:42 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

4.7% of hourly employees make minimum or less than minimum


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Patlal]
    #19384668 - 01/07/14 07:43 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
To all of you advocating that minimum salary shouldn't exist;

We are not in the 1940s anymore, you should grab a couple of history books to catch up and get up with the times.

Truth is, people are much better off now than when there was no minimum salary. We have human rights now, laws that prevents abuse, regulations to prevent extreme variations in the market, hell women have the right to vote!

Quit bitching that the minimum salary hurts employment and whatnot. It's been around the world for several decades and people still managed to jobs, businesses survived, some thrived and billionaires were even made.

All you need is to bring your train of thoughts to the reality of today instead of dreaming of the misery that was yesterday




if only Zappa understood this. It's very hard to explain to him I don't believe the horse shit 3% minimum wage crap he brings up with a link. At least he has a link, but I'll bet that minimum wage is more like 30%, either way perhaps minimum wage is earned by so few because it's SUCH A JOKE that even the shittiest employers pay people a few cents more then minimum these days. But to tackle how many people are on minimum wage I'd like to address another perspective:






"Economist Dean Baker describes one effect of this in Minimum Wage: Who Decided Workers Should Fall Behind?

    “If the minimum wage had risen in step with productivity growth [since 1968], it would be over $16.50 an hour today. That is higher than the hourly wages earned by 40 percent of men and half of women.”

Baker is referring to this CEPR study: The Minimum Wage and Economic Growth.

40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Read what Baker wrote again. The minimum wage would be $16.50 an hour — $33,000 a year — if it had kept up with the growth of productivity since 1968. To put the effect of this a different way, 40% of Americans now make less than the 1968 minimum wage, had the minimum wage kept pace with productivity gains.

To put this even another way, the average American’s living standard would be much, much higher today if wages had not decoupled from productivity gains – with the gains all going to the 1% instead of being shared by We, the People. If wages had kept pace we wouldn’t feel the terrible squeeze that everyone in the middle class is feeling. (Never mind what has happened to those below the middle class.)

This is one more way to understand the effect of income and wealth inequality on each of us. The 1%/99% thing is real. When you hear that the 6 Walmart heirs have more wealth than 1/3 (or more) of all Americans combined, it is real. When you hear that the people on the Forbes list of the 400 wealthiest Americans have more wealth than half of all Americans combined, it is real.

And the effects on the rest of us are real."

http://ourfuture.org/20130219/40-of-americans-now-under-former-minimum-wage


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: DebuteMachine]
    #19384670 - 01/07/14 07:44 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

2 The presence of a sizable number of workers with wages below the federal minimum does not necessarily indicate violations of the Fair Labor Standards Act, as there are exemptions to the minimum wage provisions of the law. The estimates of the numbers of minimum and subminimum wage workers presented in the accompanying tables pertain to workers paid at hourly rates; salaried and other non-hourly workers are excluded. As such, the actual number of workers with earnings at or below the prevailing federal minimum is undoubtedly understated. Research has shown that a relatively small number and share of salaried workers and others not paid by the hour have earnings that, when translated into hourly rates, are at or below the minimum wage. However, BLS does not routinely estimate hourly earnings for non-hourly workers because of data concerns that arise in producing these estimates.




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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: mpd]
    #19384677 - 01/07/14 07:45 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

mpd said:
Why not?  We have had five years of liberal economic policy failures, I would like to see this one fail too.




Such failure


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: koods]
    #19384690 - 01/07/14 07:49 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

That's the stock market.  Do you know who is responsible for that?  Ben Bernanke.

Pump and dump.


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384730 - 01/07/14 07:55 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Oh, and just for comparison. The masterminds of the Bush administration started their term with the S&P at 1350, and when they left 8 years later, it was at 850. That a 37% loss over Bush's term, compared to a 100% gain during Obama's tenure. So... STFU about failed liberal policies.


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384748 - 01/07/14 07:58 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
To all of you advocating that minimum salary shouldn't exist;

We are not in the 1940s anymore, you should grab a couple of history books to catch up and get up with the times.

Truth is, people are much better off now than when there was no minimum salary. We have human rights now, laws that prevents abuse, regulations to prevent extreme variations in the market, hell women have the right to vote!


  Are you saying that we have those things because we have a minimum wage?





are you saying we don't? What does it matter? For all the things we have that others don't what we DO have is HUGE wealth inequality. What we DO have is a fair system where a poor uneducated person can walk into a burger king and get a job and do something because there is a minimum wage. Without that burger king might offer $1 an hour. They live on more then that in Compton selling crack. We never have been or will be as poor as another country. Minimum wage sure doesn't hurt that.

So from a perspective a minimum wage as it is keeps many Americans out of poverty and is the reason our country is more prosperous then other countries. Division of wealth. If people want to fight it and vote in people who want it to be higher, good for them. Will it help? Who knows? Will it hurt? Certainly not. We have that right in this country, freedom of speech. We can say whatever we want whenever we want and complain until things or they don't but still complain. I'm all for a minimum wage raise, as I said I don't know if it will do much but people have a right to vote in a politician that wants a wage raise.

Personally, I couldn't give two shits less about Obama in terms of his presidential competence. But for SURE the one thing of his I support is a wage hike which a lot of Republicans oppose strangely. And even though I know Obama wants a minimum wage raise hike to get more taxes and try and tackle the national rising debt and lower spending deficits, and couldn't care less about his fellow man, I have to respect him for that course of action.

He is a smart person this president we have. If I was Rommel and instead of Patton on the battlefield field I was facing general Obama I'd think twice about his decisions. He plays a complete idiot, but is very smart and deceptive and his deceptiveness is cunning. What can I say I feel he deserved to win the election. Romney was a shit candidate anyway but either way no matter what Romney would have ACTUALLY done winning an election, he was not clearly the candidate cut out to win against Obama in a battle of deceptive whits. Which is what wins an election anyway, and Obama was a far more cunning foe, therefore a stronger species.

That is all wages and battles for wages represents to me anyway. It's a battle of survival and only the strongest survive. One way or another if you get paid more you are on top and being on top means you are survival of the fittest. But to me that goes for the whole species. I don't like people whining about wage laws either way, the truth is if people feel to be the fittest species they will do whatever it takes to make more money even if that is crying about a wage increase until it happens nationally. I'm tired of people bitching about what is and isn't "fair" in capitalism. Capitalism is strongest of the fittest. If you are the strongest you go out there and stop the politicians from raising the wages petition or do whatever the fuck it takes. But to keep saying "in a fair free market" etc. tons of crying and whining about who doesn't know economics and elasticity

well get over it, the strongest wins. If they pass this and you don't like them then you got beat. I don't care either way I don't deal with minimum bullshit but I do for sure see a benefit from it not just some dying version of the extinct free market billionaire and those who try to be like billionaires. Oh wah :crying: billionaires don't lose they win you get that? When you are the top lion you are not losing you are winning. Nobody should CRY over a billionaire then they should cry over a hungry lion. That IS nature that IS the free market as nature intended this is nature at it's finest


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: koods]
    #19384750 - 01/07/14 08:00 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Oh, and just for comparison. The masterminds of the Bush administration started their term with the S&P at 1350, and when they left 8 years later, it was at 850. That a 37% loss over Bush's term, compared to a 100% gain during Obama's tenure. So... STFU about failed liberal policies.




:picard:  Why don't you tell us about the NASDAQ.  Which also cratered.

Liberal policies, i.e. lending money to shit bags, as implemented by Clinton and Cuomo led to the bank problems because the cunting shitbags didn't pay their mortgages.  Neither liberal nor conservative policies had anything to do with bursting the tech bubble.  It was tulips.  I own't blame Clinton or the Congress for it


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384775 - 01/07/14 08:04 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ShiVersblood said:
So u want all poor people to become hunter gather people? Uhhh...... Wtf....




No.  I want whiners to stop whining that they are trapped on the wheel.  Unimaginative, talentless and lazy hacks.




What if somebody is mentally handicapped and has like Down's Syndrome or something? The entire reason they are given work and can afford living expenses is because of non-discrimination laws and minimum wage.




They are given work out of charity.  Minimum wage laws probably inhibit their opportunities to live meaningful lives wherein they can take pride in making a contribution and doing things.




yeah, charity? Are the CEOs going to run an entire company by themselves?

Who am I quoting saying "give one half the country the day off for the CEOs, marketing analysts, buying negotiators, etc. Give the other half off to the cooks, dish cleaners, managers, food truck delivery drivers and see which country doesn't get their burgers that day" :lol: yeah I'd like to know also I suppose it'd be side of the country without the most "charity"? :smirk:


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: imachavel]
    #19384778 - 01/07/14 08:05 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Why are you identifying with Downsies?


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384811 - 01/07/14 08:12 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

koods said:
Oh, and just for comparison. The masterminds of the Bush administration started their term with the S&P at 1350, and when they left 8 years later, it was at 850. That a 37% loss over Bush's term, compared to a 100% gain during Obama's tenure. So... STFU about failed liberal policies.




:picard:  Why don't you tell us about the NASDAQ.  Which also cratered.

Liberal policies, i.e. lending money to shit bags, as implemented by Clinton and Cuomo led to the bank problems because the cunting shitbags didn't pay their mortgages.  Neither liberal nor conservative policies had anything to do with bursting the tech bubble.  It was tulips.  I own't blame Clinton or the Congress for it




FIRST of all I don't give a SHIT about the NASDAQ. We have had this discussion. You question "moving money around" and then discuss productivity. I call shares and loans and insurance and financial services intangible trading, the assets are intangible, and personally I couldn't care less about the fucking NASDAQ. I find productivity in tangible assets, money to me is incidental in productivity despite everyone else's opinion.

Ok now that we have that out of the way, so who ruined it? Clinton? Obama? I don't give a shit. I already seed I disagree on Obama as a president and what a shit job he is doing 50 million times look at my sig. I don't like him, but if you are questioning that for a second I'll consider his failures somehow comparable to the Republicans succeeding, that'd be about as stupid as me saying because Nazi's failed then Muslims will succeed in contrast. I don't do contrasts. I don't give a shit about the right side or the left side guided by Obama who I believe to be a right winger in disguise. What I did say was "I agree with Obama on one aspect, a minimum wage raise." And I do, I think it's inconsequential in the long run, but in the short run people can live a little bit better. If you find it the equivalent raise in life quality comparable to giving a guy you meet at the bus stop a light for a cigarette and not much more, then I give you this quote:

"a few kind words can warm three winter months." So if a few kind dollars can warm a few years of winter economic recession then so be it to me raise it. At this point I want to see it raised just to talk and have proof and finally squash the opinions of people who say "wage raises hurt and raise prices." I can't IMAGINE prices being any higher. I mean Jesus fucking Christ 30 years ago a house that today is about 500k could have been as little as 50k. That's a lot of inflation, and MINIMUM wage has barely doubled in the last 30 years. And if you don't consider real estate prices going up inflation because the buyer sets the price then you just don't care about the damn definition of inflation. Inflation is inflation there is no text book capitalistic definition that says inflation is not inflation because of a buyer negotiation. Yeah....... right, nice try


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: imachavel]
    #19384866 - 01/07/14 08:23 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

How kind of you to be so generous with other people's money.  You are like the Mother Theresa of finance.


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384896 - 01/07/14 08:28 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

unless any of you have some kind of economic degree you all should really shut the fuck up.


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: DebuteMachine]
    #19384936 - 01/07/14 08:37 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

DebuteMachine said:
unless any of you have some kind of economic degree you all should really shut the fuck up.



I have an economic degree.  It's called 30+ years of being in business.  You can suck the teats of opt out pinheads in academia but I have learned to have nothing but scorn for them.  The real world will give that to you.


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384953 - 01/07/14 08:40 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

resume or it didn't happen. yeah, i actually want you to be credible bro, not picking a fight.


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: DebuteMachine]
    #19385045 - 01/07/14 08:58 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

DebuteMachine said:
resume or it didn't happen. yeah, i actually want you to be credible bro, not picking a fight.




You got me.  It's only been 29 years.  28 - 57.

I went to college and worked construction summers.  I liked it and thought to myself that with my psychology degree it might be a good career since people will always need houses and it cannot be mechanized.  Employees, no employees, management only, ninja roof cutter.  An employee once asked me if I would do health insurance.  I said OK but your going to have to take the pay cut for it, which was a good deal for him anyway since it was zero taxed income.  He was worth what he was worth but I accommodated him.  He took it for about 6 months and said fuckit.  He was well paid, too, because he was pretty good.  Rough but good.


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: imachavel]
    #19385409 - 01/07/14 10:03 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
And they are right. We don't need people telling other people who can pay what. After all, this is democracy, and freedom.

I was also thinking, based on that philosophy, I don't really think we need police either. I mean after all democracy is about freedom. Think about all the freedom that laws displace, you know police and the federal government controlling the military upset a natural balance. In a free world, authority would be decided by the majority of people, the crowd. A large crowd of 100 or more would decide how to tell who is stealing, what should be done to them, what life thieves and violent people should have etc. Who are the police to interrupt true freedom? The police are like the minimum wage, it creates a false idea that people can't function or behave on their own without court and law etc.

Should we have bail outs and minimum wage and jail and police? HELL NO :facepalm: I can't believe I didn't understand until now

rules and laws hurt freedom :smirk: I mean the sooner we get rid of minimum wage the sooner people start seeing what freedom actually is and we can get rid of the police as well. If only I took more economic classes, I'd get all this supply and demand stuff already. Just like police, there isn't enough "demand" for them :rolleyes: just constant supply and the court system is hurting the free market




Dude, that's like... so wrong!  GTFO of here with your uncaring economic policies.  I say we raise the minimum wage to $100 an hour, that everyone could be rich and no one would be left unprovided for or exploited by the meanie corporations... oh wait.  :sad:


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19385449 - 01/07/14 10:08 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

DebuteMachine said:
unless any of you have some kind of economic degree you all should really shut the fuck up.



I have an economic degree.  It's called 30+ years of being in business.  You can suck the teats of opt out pinheads in academia but I have learned to have nothing but scorn for them.  The real world will give that to you.




Just fyi, the things you learn in economics and business classes are totally different material.


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: Crystal G]
    #19386134 - 01/08/14 12:51 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

What about all the shitty workers that aren't even worth minimum wage, what should they get paid?


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: fapjack]
    #19386236 - 01/08/14 01:25 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:
What about all the shitty workers that aren't even worth minimum wage, what should they get paid?




the blood of the rich.


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: fapjack]
    #19386247 - 01/08/14 01:31 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

fapjack said:
What about all the shitty workers that aren't even worth minimum wage, what should they get paid?




Who honestly isn't worth minimum wage? And for doing what job?

Yea, maybe if they have some stupid job where all they have to do is sleep and play video games, they shouldn't even get paid minimum wage. But to my knowledge no such job exists.


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: DebuteMachine]
    #19386471 - 01/08/14 03:43 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

DebuteMachine said:
unless any of you have some kind of economic degree you all should really shut the fuck up.




I couldn't give a shit less about an "economic degree." What does that signify to me? That you need to "read" what happens around you to understand it? Capitalism and interest rates and financing and taxes and the fed etc.? I don't revolve around an idea that the stock market has any god damn thing to do with business or that one company needs to be a billion dollar company for the country to succeed or whatever. Sure it the larger a company is, the more easily we live in the industrial age, where things are manufactured quickly and easily and everyone can enjoy them.

But confusing that "one company needs to do it all" with "one company is needed for everyone else to succeed" is just ridiculous. The fact is I'm not arguing wage caps or federal financing or global supply and demand why China produces the cheapest goods etc. Of course China produces the cheapest goods. But if you are going to tell me that you need to pay people $1 an hour to have extremely cheap production and otherwise jobs are outsourced well the argument doesn't begin with me there are a lot of people out there that will argue with you over what a stupid way of thinking it is to believe that idea.

As I've said, if the minimum wage is $13 an hour and I start a business and need to hire 4 people right away full time yes I'm paying each one a high rate when a guy might show up and not even be productive and I've spent a lot of money on him already. But we aren't arguing $13 an hour we are arguing $10 or to me a raise to $8 is acceptable even. And as I've said broke idiots don't start businesses otherwise everyone would own one. Let's say I started fermenting wine in carboys and turned it into a business. I get a liquor license and start selling it and make decent money and now want to hire help to make more wine. I hire a guy probably to come in Monday and Friday 4 hours on Monday and 4 hours on Friday, and at this rate I'm paying a guy part time 8 hours a week let's say the M W was $10 an hour then I pay him $80 for the week.

Now in all scenarios I can think of where I would complain about this, then I can also justify that I shouldn't be in business. I would find the greatest challenge my business would have would seriously be #1 sales experience and competition with other wine companies. The cost of owning a lot and paying a lease the people I'd have to compete with marketing my wine and getting the word out to as many people to buy from me instead of going to the store or to a restaurant or even trying to sell to a restaurant etc. Now if I can't afford $80 a week, should I be in business? I mean in business you often need to sell WAY PAST $80 a week at least last I heard you should be competent to own a business, I don't think business people get relaxed on a leased rent any more then a person who works all day gets relaxed on his rent as a tenant where he lives.

So if a) I wanted to hire more people for longer time like 4 people at 40 hours a week, one more time I feel the real question should be asked "do I need 4 people, is it 100% necessary, and if I don't have the necessary means to pay each one the full wage 40 hours should I be hiring them?" So to me a persons business competence comes into question: "how much wine is this person selling? Is he selling $100 a week? $1000 a week? $10,000 a week?"

now without going into any other scenarios I once again have to ask: as much as it's not justified for some people to say "why pay the guy $80 a day instead of $40 a day" and all types of "$80 a day for 4 people, who can afford that?" Well the truth is toddlers don't start businesses. It is hard to afford. Is running a restaurant hard to afford? You are damn right, a restaurant can cost 10k a month just in utilities. You think capitalism is fair? You think minimum wage is the greatest issue? Do I now need an economics degree to argue this with you that capitalism is about "capitalizing"? There are a lot of unfair things a person will need to question before getting involved in a business once again I don't remember the last time I heard about 5 year olds starting businesses.

Now on that note, to say that the NATIONAL MW should be $12 an hour is a little ridiculous.  $96 a day MINIMUM to me a little high some people don't make $600 a day but do in fact need to hire some help. But to me $8 an hour is absolutely fair, that is only $64 a day, barely livable, and in truth if people question how much that is to pay someone then perhaps the question should be in the cost of living these days, not in the wage needed to meet inflation. I agree $64 a day per person is very expensive, but then so is fucking everything you have to pay for, insurance, rent, etc. yes you can argue not to live in the city if you can't afford rent. Good luck finding 1% of possible employment opportunities in Kansas versus NYC with about 5000% of employment opportunities in Kansas.

And there is no relevance what so ever that expensive living costs are now linked to MINIMUM WAGE, absolutely not, considering that living costs are now pretty much the same everywhere I've been as in 2007, before the M W went up from $5.


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Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19386472 - 01/08/14 03:44 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

DebuteMachine said:
unless any of you have some kind of economic degree you all should really shut the fuck up.



I have an economic degree.  It's called 30+ years of being in business.  You can suck the teats of opt out pinheads in academia but I have learned to have nothing but scorn for them.  The real world will give that to you.




thank you. Actually not sarcastically. Thank you for that


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,375
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 14 hours, 23 minutes
Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19386485 - 01/08/14 03:55 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

DebuteMachine said:
resume or it didn't happen. yeah, i actually want you to be credible bro, not picking a fight.




You got me.  It's only been 29 years.  28 - 57.

I went to college and worked construction summers.  I liked it and thought to myself that with my psychology degree it might be a good career since people will always need houses and it cannot be mechanized.  Employees, no employees, management only, ninja roof cutter.  An employee once asked me if I would do health insurance.  I said OK but your going to have to take the pay cut for it, which was a good deal for him anyway since it was zero taxed income.  He was worth what he was worth but I accommodated him.  He took it for about 6 months and said fuckit.  He was well paid, too, because he was pretty good.  Rough but good.




so why don't you explain to me how you can afford to pay each person who works for you minimum NY $17 an hour? I am just stumped you are against a raise from $7 to $9. If I wanted to go paint a house and had to pay a guy to help me more then $100 each day for the help I feel I'd be in big trouble. It would also SUCK if he didn't do a damn thing and I still owed him but then again I could fire him day #1 if he wasn't doing shit. But now you owe the guy $17 for the day? And you are arguing going from $7 to $9? Well how the hell can you afford fucking $17? :laugh2: I keep feeling like people are arguing inconsistent nothings to bitch about minimum wage so much compared to all the other bureaucratic crap that this country has turned into all the retarded regulations created by banking jew lobbyists that have turned running a basic business in basic costs into an insane price war only the super rich can afford.

I find minimum wage to be the least of the problem right now. But considering that Obama wants it raised and yet doesn't want to tackle the expensive cost of daily living in the United States all the stupid regulations he has passed Obama Care(which isn't free you have to pay) and shit etc. is just crazy. Are we really arguing $9 an hour here? Or are we arguing that it costs $9 an hour in this country now just to do basic things keep up with rent afford to live well enough to be healthy enough on a basic level etc.

What do you expect from a president who approves something as retarded as Obama Care? That right there is going to put more people out of business then the stupid minimum wage and at the same time is the reason it's so expensive to live day by day anyway.


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: You know people are saying we don't need a minimum wage because it hurts freedom in the market [Re: imachavel]
    #19386497 - 01/08/14 04:08 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
yet doesn't want to tackle the expensive cost of daily living in the United States




That is why people want the minimum wage to go up. Because the cost of living gets inflated by 3% every single year. Things like healthcare and gas and medicine AREN'T calculated in the cost of living, which is ridiculous considering it's gone up between 200-400% in the past 20 years.

But, how else would you impede rising costs of living unless you were to.....*gasp*...... infringe some regulatory measures by putting a cap on the amount businesses can charge?


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