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Strange ![]() Registered: 05/30/05 Posts: 1,501 Last seen: 9 years, 11 months |
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Just wondering. Let's face it. The hippy generation and psychedellics sparked a generation of people newly and refreshingly interested in spirituality/religion.
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
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another round for me an my buddy Registered: 06/27/13 Posts: 628 Last seen: 4 years, 3 months |
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I wouldve been a stone face athiest wihout any drug use, honestly. Pot for sure, but my acid days had a part to play
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: Same here only I can't be sure I would have been an atheist, I was an atheist before I tried marijuana but that doesn't mean I would have remained one my entire life. How can you possibly know what would have happened if?
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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Quote: But what kind of theist? I remember these fundies that would come to campus and pass out pit of hellfire pamphlets. They were really quite brilliant, little stick men being tossed into a pit of hell fire with a kind of "see Jane, see Jane being tossed into a pit of hellfire, no Jane, no!" demeanor. Oh man, the MidWest, good times.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Are you asking me what kind of theist I am? If so, I don't know how to answer that. The kind who seeks to know and live in communion with the almighty and ever-living God, the everlasting Father, through finding joy in loving the Lord, Jesus Christ. I'm that kind of theist.
As for hell pamphlets that does sound funny to me but only because I find religion to be generally quite hilarious (but true) but why did you find them hilarious? Hell is a very real threat. I've been through hell on earth and it's no joke, certainly no laughing matter. Edited by Deviate (01/07/14 12:29 AM)
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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Nope, what kind of Christian might you have became without psychedelics... Say the moment you were struck with real death anxiety, perhaps you had a heart attack from drug abuse--- then maybe you'd get scared and become a rabid Christian with a hellfire pamphlet.
Anyways, these fundamentalists aren't concerned with 'hell on earth', which can be much more accurately described without the metaphysical drama. They're not talking about third world nations dying of starvation, nor are they talking about psychological psychosis ----they are scaring people with ideas of an afterlife full of sociopathic nazi torment by God. What a joke. -------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Oh, I get your point. What kind of Christian would I have become without psychedelics. Oh, that is very very easy to answer. The exact same kind.
I would never have become a Christian simply because I was afraid to die. In fact, I have been so miserable that I have often looked forward to death ever since I was a teenager. But aside from that, even if I was afraid of death, I would not have been capable of simply believing in Christianity to fix that issue anymore than I am capable of believing that tomorrow I will meet the girl of my dreams and she will fall in love with m, and that's way less of a stretch for the mind than going from atheism to Christianity. I could very well meet the girl of my dreams tomorrow, but it is unlikely, it sounds too good to be true and so I am incapable of believing it. It doesn't matter how much I want it to be true or what the stakes are. You could put a gun to my head and demand that I believe or you will shoot and although I might tell you I believe it, the truth is in my heart I most likely still would not believe it. In fact, when i was young child, when I still loved life, I was deeply frightened of death. I was raised in a non religious household but my catholic grandmother tried to teach about the Lord Jesus Christ and how I could have eternal life through him. I desperately wanted it to be true and yet even to my child brain (which believed in Santa claus and the Easter Bunny) I was still unable to believe in the gospel because it sounded too good to be true to me. Eternal life? Heaven? Come on, heaven is my heart's deepest desire and if there is one thing that life has taught me, it's that you can't have what you desire. As a teenager when I was going through existential despair over the apparent futility of everything (it all leads to death, no matter what) I also revisited spiritual concepts and again, could not make myself believe regardless of how badly I wanted to. Oops, I apologize for rambling on so much about that, it's late here. My point is that in order for me to convert, it would have taken something major. For me psycyhedelics were that thing. I cant say I wouldn't have found some other thing had I not found psychedelics though. Quote: Why do you think your opinions are more valid than anyone elses? In my opinion (and I fully recognize that is nothing more than my opinion, or more than an opinion it is simply a point of view) anyone who is warning people about hell is doing great service to humanity. Hell is hell regardless of whether it is being experienced on planet earth in a physical body or in a different realm following the death of the physical body. I see the main cause of suffering on earth being ignorance/non awakened consciousness. Therefore I see anyone doing anything that helps awake human consciousness as doing something very positive for humanity. Warning people about hell is certain one method of waking people up out of their bad habits. Now you may see thigns a different way but thats simply your point of view which is not really yours but is conditioned by your past experiences and your biological, psychological and spiritual makeup. And why judge others anyway?
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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Valid, as in having a sound basis in logic? This a joke? Perhaps because the afterlife as hell doesn't bear two seconds of logical thought. Fortunately, when I try to imagine a Mind behind the Universe, I cannot conceive of that Mind, usually called "God," as TOTALLY FUCKING INSANE.
I mean, compare that "God" with the worst monsters you can think of - - Adolph Hitler, Joe Stalin, that sort of guy. None of them ever inflicted more than finite pain on their victims. Even de Sade, in his sado-maso fantasy novels, never devised an unlimited torture. The idea that the Mind of Creation (if such exists) wants to torture some of its critters for endless infinities of infinities seems too absurd to take seriously. This idea is a total disservice to humanity, created by self-important, megalomaniac fuckwads with a deep rooted sense of moral superiority to all non-Christians. ![]() Edit: Maybe wake yourself up with LSD, Psilocybin, DMT, or Mescaline - and get back with me on how scaring people actually helps awaken them from a bad habit... That IS the bad habit. Almost the same nonsense as the 'guru slap' I keep hearing about of late ![]()
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too. Edited by CosmicJoke (01/07/14 02:36 AM)
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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First, it must be understood that God is pure goodness (Psalm 16). He has no desire to torture any human in hell for even one second. The problem is that God is so insanely good (and yes God is insane by human standards of sanity, but humans are insane by divine standards) that evil, wicked, sinful people cannot bear his presence. In the case of judgement, God is simply the light of Truth that exposes everything for what it is. This is unbearable to the wicked because their whole sense of reality is built on untruth, as the wicked are concerned with their own gain, advancing their own ego, a non entity. An entity that cannot remain intact under the scrutiny of the light of Truth. So it is really sinnners who unconsciously torture themselves by choosing to separate themselves from God, who is the source of all goodness because they cannot bear his other attributes. Exactly how this works and how long it goes on for or how time flows in that state of consciousness, I can't tell you.
Are the wicked doomed to suffer punishment for all eternity? I'm not sure If you've read the Bible (and I am going to assume you have) then you should know that the Bible speaks about the fate of sinners being death, destruction and eventually, complete annihilation far more often than it speaks about them suffering continuously forever. God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). He consumes all that is not like himself. He consumes us either in a positive way (spiritual awakening) that glorifies both us and him or in a negative way in which the unrepentant sinner is made pure through it's own destruction. Anyway, I cant find it right now but I once read a very interesting document that made a strong scriptural case that hell was not eternal.
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Trippage! / Loving Registered: 07/25/12 Posts: 4,440 Loc: ALL THAT IS Last seen: 1 year, 6 months |
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Quote: QFT Drugs can open the door to enlightenment for you. ![]() But you cannot walk through it with them. That's why I'm abstaining from drug use. Getting there without relying on anything but myself. Read The Master Game. --------------------
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Ascended Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 5,401 Last seen: 1 day, 23 hours |
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I was an atheist but through direct experience schizophrenic like symptoms manifested that soon formed into a sort of contact scenario and possession state by multiple entities. It was the mushrooms.
Its like a Dan Brown novel with me mixed with David Icke and a Beautiful Mind.
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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Quote: You're switching topics, as I asked what kind of Christian you might have became had there been no mystical experience (and instead got scared into it, say from a big wake up call like a drug overdose induced heart attack) - in which case, like it or not, many believe in eternal hellfire as a moral punishment. As for your argument though, it's strange to me how you can mix phrases like 'unconsciously torture themselves' with 'choosing to separate themselves from God'. Which one is it? Unconscious or choice? Seems like you're making a case to shift the blame off God onto the individual, yet then convoluting it even further by saying there kind of isn't a separate individual, as that's an illusion, as in reality there's only God. What a mess this theology is.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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another round for me an my buddy Registered: 06/27/13 Posts: 628 Last seen: 4 years, 3 months |
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Quote: Ive never heard anyone put it like that. I really like it. Ive been wondering myself what would happen to my spirituality without any intoxication, particularly opiates. Psychedelics for sure opened my minds eye to the possibility of more than the material universe, but it was heavy opiate use that quieted my mind to the point of being able to hear the voices of eternity. Without the extended drug use spirituality would have remained just a distant hope, a possibility, a maybe. The stillness of a decent nod, the ability to focus in on one single point, brought me to the conclusion that spirituality wasnt some fanciful fairytale but a reality we have yet to discover. I wonder how my views will change with my imminent total sobriety. As for the whole heaven\hell thing, bleh. I dont think there is some distant land of milk and honey or a pit of eternal hell fire that youre sent to for not repenting over that stolen candy bar when you were a kid. If the idea of hell is what it takes for some people to remain moral, then i suppose it serves its purpose. However i feel if there is this patriarchal glowing man in the clouds, he would want people in heaven because they are good, kind hearted people concerned with the troubles of others and an infinite supply of love for their fellow man, not just cause they were frightened of getting burned ![]() The goodness that arises from fear is not the same as goodness from the heart. Goodness that comes from fear is inspired by the material, egocentric world where fear can exist, an imperfect world where we have the capacity to think of things such as torture. I choose to believe that if there is some infinite being of goodness, he cannot even conceive the idea of hell fire and torture. I suppose that is why im not a Catholic
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: What do you mean I am "switching" topics? I switchED topics because I already addressed the first one. I already make it clear to you that I cant answer that question because I can't envision myself changing my theological views because of having a heart attack or something like that. The only thing that I feel secure in saying would have lead to a change in my views was an encounter with something beyond the physical, beyond "ordinary reality". "you might have became had there been no mystical experience " You seem to be switching topics. At first it was, what kind of Christian would I have become had I not taken psychedelicds. Now it is what kind of Christian would I have become in the absence of ALL mystical experiences? I see the question itself as absurd. Its like asking me what kind of tennis player I would have become if I had never played tennis. I would not have become a Christian at all in the absence of all mystical experience. Quote: WHat makes you think it the two are mutually exclusive? We make unconscious choices all the time. The human being (99% of them anyway) is not fully conscious. Even when we make what we think is a conscious choice we are being influenced by unconscious factors. Quote: To you it may seem like a mess but the truth can never be expressed in any theology, it can only be pointed at. The argument over whether man's predicament is man's fault or God's goes back centuries and it is answerable because it is a question that stems from the mindset of separation. That is why none of this makes sense. The egoic perspective is itself the error, its the ultimate paradox. How can you expect a paradox to make sense?
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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Quote: My point is I'm really skeptical that this is true. I think you very well might have became religious anyways- particularly had you experienced a close encounter with death (not to be mistaken with a NDE) like an overdose, jail, or something to stir up some serious death anxiety. I witness people's childhood fears stirred up in such situations, and that's when that benevolent, all knowing grandma and the eternal life of Jesus suddenly makes perfect sense, as they're able to beam themselves messages of safety and security by following through with these bizarre beliefs and rituals, by being a good little boy and doing as nanna said. No mystical union with Reality required, just a dab of dread and it's all the way.Quote: Making a choice involves the mental process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one's preference. That means the choice is in your conscious attention, like "oh, not being in these hellish delusions, yes, this is a viable option, but I think I'll just take the endless torment anyways" . Now I could see it being argued in this particular circumstance that the unconscious, an aspect of self existing outside of the mind and one's conscious attention, was motivating that choice, because the who in their right mind would choose endless torment? But if they simply weren't aware of this alleged state of mystical union with Reality all together, then they are just reacting unconsciously, and there was never a choice to begin with. Either way, it's hard to really pin the blame on anyone in such a situation. In my estimation, death would be more like taking off a tight shoe for such a miserable person, certainly no more hellish realities await them. But it's really a shame that life wasn't the right environment for them to grow. Had they had the right support, which most certainly wouldn't be scaring them with threats of hellfire, but say an MDMA session with a psychotherapist, perhaps they could have worked through some of those unconscious motivations, and really ripened as an individual. Quote:
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Yes, thats my point
Quote: I had many close encounters with death in the form of panic attacks. Of course I wasn't in any real danger but they were far more frightening than any of the times my life has been in actual danger and the thought of becoming a Christian did not even occur to me as a potential solution. I don't think you understand how attached people are to atheistic beliefs, it's like a religion. Changing your worldview around completely is a major ordeal, especially for deep thinking, introspective folks. Go try telling atheists that as soon as they get a little firghtened they are going to become Christians and see what kind of responses you get. When I was an atheist, just like most other atheists, i rejected everything that did not support what I already believed. I was deeply intellectually invested in a materialistic worldview, I really dont understand how you think jail or a drug overdose could change that. How would I justify it? When i was 16 I accidentally took too much DXM one time and ended up coming very near to ego loss and of course I believed 100% that I had ODed and had almost died (since I did not know there was such a thing as ego loss at that age and thought I was actually dying). The thought of becoming a Christain did not even occur to me. It was a good experience none the less as I did gain a little appreciation for life after feeling as though I had lost mine and I remember the world looked especially beautiful the next morning but I don't recall even thinking about religion. I've also been to jail and again I fail to see how you could possibly think that would convert me. What does jail have to do with the nature of existence? Quote: Making a choice involves the mental process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one's preference. That means the choice is in your conscious attention, like "oh, not being in these hellish delusions, yes, this is a viable option, but I think I'll just take the endless torment anyways" . Now I could see it being argued in this particular circumstance that the unconscious, an aspect of self existing outside of the mind and one's conscious attention, was motivating that choice, because the who in their right mind would choose endless torment? But if they simply weren't aware of this alleged state of mystical union with Reality all together, then they are just reacting unconsciously, and there was never a choice to begin with. Either way, it's hard to really pin the blame on anyone in such a situation. In my estimation, death would be more like taking off a tight shoe for such a miserable person, certainly no more hellish realities await them. But it's really a shame that life wasn't the right environment for them to grow. Had they had the right support, which most certainly wouldn't be scaring them with threats of hellfire, but say an MDMA session with a psychotherapist, perhaps they could have worked through some of those unconscious motivations, and really ripened as an individual. Quote: ![]() Well part of my point was that this society is very far from an ideal place for people to grow and it is unfortunate.
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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You butchered that reply from your last post, made it seem as though you said things I had and vice versa.
Quote: Because I hear these stories all the time, and having some kind of brush with death or finding one has a terminal illness often is a reason some (but certainly not all) atheists will convert. I've also seen many stories of people "finding God" in prison (though unsurprisingly, this does not seem to reduce their recidivism rate). It's hard to say their motives, maybe they're just trying to impress their parole board with a sinner to saint story, as everyone loves a good redemption story. Sometimes it seems to help curry favor with a society that is largely Christian, gain them favor with the public, and help them reintegrate into society. Other times I think people do seem to want to start again, and the whole "born again" motif has a lot of allure for somebody who has majorly fucked up their life. Atheist -> Drug Abuse -> Jail -> Christian does not surprise me in the slightest , seems like a totally plausible survival coping mechanism.If statistics were available for all atheists who have converted to religious belief, how many do you think would attribute that to some sort of experience with merging with the Universe or an incredible synchronicity that made them question if there was order to the Universe or something of that nature? You think the vast majority? Honestly, I don't. Quote: Won't argue that mate. -------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too. Edited by CosmicJoke (01/08/14 04:15 PM)
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Registered: 01/09/13 Posts: 372 |
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I said maybe. Drug use had a lot to do with my developing an interest in Buddhism and in spirituality in general, but I don't know what would have happened had I not used drugs. Perhaps I would have found these things another way.
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: But just because the majority of converts may not have converted based on some mystical experience does not mean you need to lump me in with that majority and refuse to believe me when I offered up my own experiences that seem to indicate otherwise. I mean your argument is like saying to someone, "90% of the dogs I've seen in this town are brown, therefore your dog is brown" than that person says "Indeed there are a lot of brown dogs in this town but my dog is black". Then you say "I am really skeptical that your dog is black. Most dogs are brown, therefore your dog is brown". Now while it could be true that mystical experiences don't play a role in the majority of religious conversions, I am absolutely convinced that there is a considerable subset of the population of atheists in which mystical experiences are the primary reason for conversion. It depends on one's personality type. You know that not all atheists are the deep thinking, introspective, introverted variety. Not all atheists are as committed to atheism as others. THere are some who just never really thought much about religion because they were too busy doing other things. People become more religious in prison because they have nothing else to do, they can't live lives of crime anymore so they figure they might as well give faith a try and some just pretend to be converts for the parole board. Not all the prisoners who "find God" in prison were necessarily hardcore atheist before that, most prisoners have some kind of spiritual beliefs before they enter prison they often just aren't particularly committed to them, so prison conversions prove absolutely nothing. Many of these prisoners are not exactly Immanual Kants or Socrates either (not that I am but you get my point). So these kinds of examples are pretty useless when it comes to understanding what would lead an intelligent, deep thinking atheist who is very committed to a materialistic worldview, to convert. DO you see the problem with lumping all atheists together? There is a huge difference between an atheist who has a strong interest in the nature of existence and reads philosophy and meditates on these questions his whole life, vs some guy who never really thought about these questions, gets busted robbing a convenience store and allows himself to be converted to southern baptist by a prison preacher. I do not understand how you think it makes sense to lump these people together.
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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I don't particularly agree with you, I think an atheist who was "introspective" would probably have developed an interest in psychology. An atheist with a strong interest on "the nature of existence" might have taken an interest in the hard sciences, and perhaps went on to study physics in college.
However, an atheist looking for answers about the 'nature of existence' from the philosophers of antiquity is already of great suspect to ultimately convert to religious belief imho. It's one thing to want a solid understanding of the history and culture that these philosophers were born out of and try to get into their mind, and really understand why they were thinking the way they did. It's quite another to put any real stock into their contributions as even possibly having any actual insight into the 'nature of existence', that is their contribution to the realm of philosophy known as metaphysics. Do you at all see how your beliefs then might have already had many parallels to religious thinking? -------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: Uh, that supports my point that you can't just lump all atheists together. Quote: Of course and any atheist who has converted is going to in retrospect see how elements of their old interests and worldview served as pre-cursors to whatever conversion later occurred. Things don't just happen out of nowhere, there is always something leading up to it. What's your point? I thought your whole argument was that if not for psychedelics, then I would have become a Christian as soon as I got a little scared of death and that I would have become a totally different kind of Christian from the one I have become apparently? Isn't that what you said? My response was not to say that I would never have converted if not for psychedelics, I was saying that I would not have converted simply because I was afraid of death, which happened to me many times and failed to bring about a conversion. It's really unclear what you're even saying anymore or rather it seems to change every time I point out a flaw. If I found God through philosophy what makes you think that is inferior to finding him through psychedelics anyway? What are you saying exactly?
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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Quote: No, but I can lump all 'magical thinkers', as OrgoneConclusion would put it, together for a moment to make a point, in which some atheists might fall into such a subset, even if they were in denial about it. My point was never that finding God through psychedelics was superior to finding God through philosophy, rather that those Atheist philosophers who pondered the paradoxes of space, time, and the nature of existence while high on grass aren't quite as 'deeply intellectually invested in the materialistic worldview' as they might want to see themselves... My guess is you were never quite the atheist kid doing a thesis on carrier dynamics and nonlinear effects in quantum cascade lasers using femtosecond mid-infrared pulses. A materialist who is a 'truth seeker' would be akin to such a scientist, psychologically that's what nourishes them, while what was mentally feeding you was 'arts & sciences', which just aren't particularly materialistic. When somebody believes in evolution but prefers to spend their time thinking philosophically about metaphysical riddles, I'm not at all surprised when their ideas about reality start shifting away from scientific materialism. But I must confess, in my estimation, you're a peculiar amalgamation of beliefs, some seem a product of psychedelic, "spiritual" mind-manifesting experiences and others religious fundamentalism and death anxiety. Maybe some day those materialists will develop a perfect sim Deviate and we can sit back and watch what each set of stimulus conditions would have done and settle this dispute once and forever. ![]() -------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too. Edited by CosmicJoke (01/10/14 12:09 PM)
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GalaxyCat Registered: 01/10/14 Posts: 112 Last seen: 1 year, 2 months |
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Up until my first DMT breakthrough, I was a narrow-minded, judgmental dick.
-------------------- ~nitten~
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: I'm still not understanding what your point is. I get the fact that you think there were "signs" that my thinking might shift later in life. Ok? So What? The fact that those signs were present does not necessarily mean they would have become manifest as a reality had they not been adequately triggered. Psychedelics were that trigger for me. We can't say what would have happened without them and that is what I said from the beginning of the thread. But when I say I was deeply invested in a materialistic mindset, I mean that I irrationally rejected absolutely everything that suggested we might be spiritual beings and it took quite a lot for me to change that stance. FOr me, the psychedelic experience was a major re-orientation of my sensory experience. It may not be that for everyone but for me it was. Quote: But how could that possibly have been your point when that's not what we were talking about? You asked what kind of Christian I would have become, if not for psychedelics, as if had I not taken psychedelics my orientation toward the spiritual life would be completely different from what it was today. I am saying that yes it might be completely different in the sense that I would still reject the spiritual life. But you seemed to disagree and claim that no as soon as I got scared of dying I would have become a "christian" but with no mystical understanding of the scriptures. I find that highly unlikely. Now you keep changing what youre saying as I mentioned before, because we didn't even get to talking about different breeds of atheists until I brought it up. Therefore, your original point could not have been that "Atheist philosophers who pondered the paradoxes of space, time, and the nature of existence while high on grass aren't quite as 'deeply intellectually invested in the materialistic worldview' as they might want to see themselves..." because I hadn't even mentioned that yet. Edited by Deviate (01/10/14 02:34 PM)
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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So you feel like you would have continued with the what you call an irrational behavior (your version of atheism), rather than adopting a radically different line of irrational behavior (fundamentalist Christianity) when presented with a close call with death. You could be right Deviate, it's your life, but I'm not convinced.
That's the thing about irrationality, it's mostly clinging to one fad/trend after another, not based on logic. You did adopt a radically different belief system after taking a ton of drugs, so it seems totally plausible to me that a similar shock to the nervous system (close call with death) could have produced comparable results in changing your beliefs. -------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Stranger Registered: 01/11/14 Posts: 7 Last seen: 9 years, 5 months |
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Marijuana and the Grateful Dead did it for me [and many others].
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!universe! Registered: 11/01/06 Posts: 376 Last seen: 6 years, 11 months |
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I was something of a curious agnostic before trying psychedelics...I found it difficult to believe in anything I couldn't experience with my five senses, but found the spiritual philosophy behind the Vedas and Buddhist texts extremely interesting and holding an important seed of truth. It was a combination of what I believe to be the spiritual entity that works through mushrooms as well as some life experiences that led me to feel directly the experience of higher powers and the one-ness of the universe. I may have gotten to that place without the aid of the psychedelic experience, but it would have been a different road with perhaps a slightly different interpretation of it all.
As for Christianity and other socially acceptable religions - I think there is a bit of truth in it, but awash in many lies and the trap of self-importance (which I've almost bitten quite a few times myself.) I think the force of the universe can work through many channels but to think that ones own perspective is the *only* way, the only version of goodness is blind to much of what is (study religions of the world and there are many similar patterns...why would one be more true than the other? why condemn your brother or sister because they choose a different path to the same place?) we all experience love in accordance to our open-ness to it and I think to some extent on love's terms...opening us up according to our ability to accept more of the eternal grace beyond life and death..
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: That, in my opinion, is a very illogical point of view. Assuming that any kind "shock to the nervous system" would result in me suddenly seeing truth in things like the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita when I had no interest or understanding before, is really a stretch, its like saying hitting someone over the head with a hammer is the same as brain surgery. There's a difference between shocking the nervous system and divine revelation. My first several psychedelic experiences did not affect my atheism by the way. It was only after I started asking myself questions like "what if I focus on the high in this way and what if I start exploring myself in this way" that things began to change, so really it wasn't the drugs themselves but the process of exploring myself that lead to the changes. The drugs simply helped me focus my attention inwardly rather than having it being drawn outward by one of the many distractions we have in our society today. Now the process of exploring oneself is quite a different thing from a "shock to the nervous system" and I think you are making a great many assumptions which is never a good thing in my opinion. Even were I to be frightened of death, that would not have shed any light on the meaning behind spiritual texts and without me understanding the meaning, It is highly unliely I would have found much interest in reading them. and why doesnt my DXM trip or many panic attack attacks count as close encounters with death? Those are the most scared Ive ever been and I really dont think it is possible for me to get more scared than a panic attack and it had absolutely no effect on my religious beliefs. Christianity is not something you just believe in because you are frightened of death, not everyone gets to have eternal life according to Christianity. Christianity can be a much scarier belief system than scientific materialism if you are sinner. If death is just nothing, than what the hell is there to be scared of? Why would an atheist even be afraid of death? Do you think I am scared to not exist? I actually used to find atheism comforting, atheism says you can do whatever you want, live however you want, just sit around doing drugs all day if you want, and you will end up in the exact same place as the greatest saint to ever live. While that might be very disturbing to well adjusted people who work hard and value their lives, it was very comforting for a lazy bum like me. The spiritual life is a very difficult life, it is anything but comforting and has actually caused me tremendous misery and made me near suicidal many times. Of course I hope that it will all be worth it one day but one thing i hate is the idea that it's easier to be a Christian than an atheist.
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Quote: and Quote: -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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I've seen it happen in all regards. I recall one documentary where a guy who was very materialistic, button down shirts, chiropractor... One day he's out playing golf and strokes out. He lives, but becomes very flat affected and has this constant tinnitus that's driving him insane. He goes to the doctor for brain surgery to try and treat this tinnitus, signs waivers that it might kill him etc. He just doesn't care since he's that miserable.
The surgery goes traumatically wrong, his brain starts hemorrhaging and they end up having to remove part of his cerebellum. After waking up, he's no longer propelled by materialistic pursuits, but rather by his own psyche, he's totally drawn to painting. He spends nearly all waking hours painting, and when he paints, he describes himself as being in this transcendent space where time and space just drop away, all feelings disappear, and when he's making art he doesn't feel hopeless or sad for any of that negative, bogus stuff, just pure consciousness. He sounds very descriptive of unitive, mystical states, and you can totally see it reflected in his visionary art. Similarly, I've seen documentaries with atheists who have had near death experiences convert to religious belief, and I've have personal experience with somebody who was once very turned on to psychedelics, Ram Dass, etc. have a heart attack and get scared and decided it was time to 'get right with God'. It very much affected him negatively, as though in an instant of trauma he became less free. Anyways, you can reason it out as much as you want, I'd agree many Christians are more tormented by neurotic fantasies about the afterlife, but atheists can be pretty damned scared about death too. As long as you identify with that which dies, there will always be anxiety about death. What our ego fears is the cessation of its own existence. So it really doesn't matter if an atheist reasons it out that it's all over when they die, and that death would be no different than a dreamless sleep. It's a more sane belief, but their life is no easier than yours for it. I'm pretty sure atheists wind up in tremendously miserable and suicidal states as well. You have no clue if your life wouldn't have went in that same direction as an atheist. -------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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I'm not a religious fundamentalist, fundamentalists (in my understanding) are people who believe in a very literal interpretation of their religion and also that their religion is the only right religion and all other people, even if they are devout followers of their respective religions and good people are going to hell. That's not me at all.
Now at times I might defend religious fundamentalists but that is only because of the fact that I place an extremely high value on sadhana. I believe that sadhana is so valuable that one is better off being a religious fundamentalist than an open minded person who doesn't have any spiritual practice. The thing about sadhana is that it doesn't really matter what context you practice it in, however misguided. If your intentions are genuinely directed at building virtue and love for God, then even if you are a fundamentalist, you will still be progressing spiritually. Fundamentalists are just people who are very stuck in a certain belief system. Its easy to look at them and think they are stupid but we must remind ourselves that we are also stuck in certain beliefs, just not so obviously as the fundamentalists.
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: Interesting story but I don't really see what any of this has to do with me. Quote: Earlier I thought you said you were not talking about NDEs but just getting frightened of death, which I told you had already happened to me but failed to change my religious views. Are you saying that Dam Dass had a heart attack and decided it was time to get right with God? Quote: Well, yes of course fear of death is the very nature of the ego so anyone who has an ego is going to have some anxiety over death but I just look at that as another ego function, just like how if you are going to ask a girl out you might find yourself terrified even though you know there is nothing real to scared of.
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Registered: 12/26/13 Posts: 713 Loc: Somewhere betwee Last seen: 1 hour, 40 minutes |
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I consider myself to be a spiritual person. Through communication with the Universe I find peace. If it wasn't for pot and psychedelics, I probably would still be brainwashed to be a Christian (no offense to those of you who choose to be of the Christian faith.)
The realization that I am not (and really never was) a Christian was a huge turning point for me. I have never felt so happy, free, or full of love for all living things, including myself. Being a female raised in a household that follows a patriarchal religion that regularly tells you your body is not yours, it's "God's" did me far more harm than good. Sometimes I think I'm still recovering from that conditioning. So hooray for weed, mushrooms, and the occasional acid trip.
-------------------- "You are a ghost driving a meat coated skeleton made from stardust. What do you have to be scared of?"
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: The conditioning was in your mind, created by your mind. Our bodies certainly are not "ours". Did you create your body? No. Do you have control over it's fate/when it will die? No. Christianity simply seeks to wake up to the fact that our egos have no control and certainly no ownership, of anything.
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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Oy, I'm pretty much able to read your posts and get the gestalt of them, without dissecting each one and making point by point contentions. It's becoming cumbersome and tedious, and I have to wonder if we were communicating in person if we could accelerate past the humdrum shit and get into some interesting discussion.
I spoke of the visionary painter's story and the atheist's NDE religious conversions because they contrast your opinion that a shock to the nervous system cannot produce 'divine revelations', or that the psychedelics would only grant one a mystical experience after they had began to think about themselves in different ways. The NDEs weren't relevant to me prior in the conversation, when I was merely trying to express that serious life altering traumas, that produce massive death anxiety, can lead to a conversion to religious fundamentalism as a coping mechanism for some personality types. Conversations evolve as each of us make new points (alas, some more organically than others). ![]() In my personal experience, I'm right there with you, because my first half a dozen psychedelic experiences did not have a mystical component either. They were wonderful and bizarre, like something out of Alice and Wonderland, but it was all just wild stuff happening to me, and I hadn't experienced my sense of self in a radically different way. I think those initial experiences were adventurous enough that it did pique my curiosity as to what might be at the end of the rabbit hole, so to speak, and the subsequent psychedelic literature (Leary, Ram Dass, Metzner, Watts, Huxley etc.) fueled my imagination and openness, for an inevitable breakthrough. Yet at the same time, LSD is one thing, which requires imho some guidance, readiness, and intention to have a fully psychedelic experience, while 60mg of vaped DMT is quite another. You might have been rocketed right out of your ego into 'bathing in the Ocean of Existence' from your first trip had you started with off with a heavy dose of DMT. You can bet your ass such a trip would put a spin on what you got out of reading the Gita. ![]() Also, I was never saying that Ram Dass (one of my personal heroes) had a heart attack and decided it was time to get right in God, as that would obviously be hogwash - read it again more closely. I had said that a fundamentalist I knew, who was once into psychedelics, reading Ram Dass _Be Here Now_, and all sorts of other eccentricities, became a very bland, sad little pamphlet-handing fundamentalist after his heart attack. I don't think that your tough times on DXM really fall into the same jurisdiction as a heart attack, because your drug-induced delusions that you were dying aren't the same thing as knowing absolutely and certainly that you would have died without prompt medical intervention, so I guess we'll just have to disagree about that .Quote: This, on the other hand, I find quite lucid and quotable. Just like fear of rejection holds you back from living your life, fear of death does the same thing. The reality is it's better to believe both rejection and death, are absolutely safe. Just like death for an atheist might be a deep dreamless night's sleep, death for you can be merging with the All. It's just more sane to believe something like this. You still might have death anxiety, but you won't be exacerbating it with craziness about what bad punishment awaits you if you continue to be a lazy bum. Find another source of motivation to wake up! -------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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Quote: Nice report, welcome to The Shroomery! -------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Registered: 12/26/13 Posts: 713 Loc: Somewhere betwee Last seen: 1 hour, 40 minutes |
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Quote: No, the brainwashing was most certainly external and not "in my own mind." Growing up in a household where you cannot even question what you are being spoon fed without someone telling you not to even think such blasphemous thoughts for fear of being damned to hell, that is brainwashing. That is some heavy shit to lay on a child and if ever I had Death Anxiety it was when I was a child being reminded that a lake of fire was waiting for me 80 years down the line if I didn't THINK "right." Do I think my parents were being devious in trying to pass down their beliefs and attitudes because they were raised Christian? No. I think they felt it was the only way to teach me right from wrong. What I saw, and what I heard among the Church Community was a lot of men sitting around cherry-picking the Bible to find scripture to justify placing their importance above the importance of any woman while their wives sat silently beside them. "The man is the head of his household and the woman shall submit." Blah blah blah. Not all men mind you; I am not trying to sit here and bash men, but I heard this sort of talk enough to make an impression on me. It was a whole lot of testosterone-fueled ego being justified by some book which is "interpreted to you as intended through the HOLY SPIRIT that GOD has placed within you," if you ask me. Did I create my body? No, but I am driving it for the duration of this lifetime, however long or short it may be. This time around I am called Patchouli_Savage, and I am experiencing a life through it, using its brain to formulate thoughts and contemplate my own experiences and feelings. When this body ceases to be alive, I do not know what happens, and I am okay with that. I am here now. In the grand scheme of things I do not believe I am in control of my own fate, but I've got a hand in how I live my life and how I behave on a day to day basis, and that, for me, is enough. In order to "wake up to the fact that our egos have no control and certainly no ownership, of anything" I had to let go of Christianity. If you found Christianity and it works for you, then I am truly happy for you and hope that you continue to walk joyously on your path. In elaborating my response to the thread as briefly and concisely as I could, I was certainly not trying to put anyone down for their faith (or lack of it, for that matter) and the path they have chosen. I was simply sharing the path I have found in leaving another behind. Whatever the case, this road has been and continues to be working for me. It's not the same for everybody, and that is completely and totally okay. -------------------- "You are a ghost driving a meat coated skeleton made from stardust. What do you have to be scared of?"
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: Ok, I think I understand what you were trying to say better now. Btw, I despise point by point contentions and while they are at times useful or necessary, I am all for condensing things as much as possible. I have debated with people who break my posts down literally sentence by sentence every post I make and I feel like this is an absolutely inane way to communicate and all that it does is cause the discussion to fragment into a million tangents. I guess that could be considered their debate strategy, fragment the discussion to the point where I become too disinterested to continue and then claim they have one. I am very glad you are not like that. Anyway, all I have to say in response is that as the conversation evolved I was no longer sure what you were saying exactly. As for your last statements, I believe they are off base. First of all, fear of hell is not my main motivation for spiritual practice, secondly my fears of hell and ideas about it are not limited to ideas about the afterlife. I look at life after death as being in many ways a continuation of this current life. In my current life I have already observed how allowing my ego to run my life leads to a state of hell on earth, and believe I have been through hell on earth and then some. So my fears about hell are from direct experience, not some made up belief or conjecture. I understand that there is a certain way of living that leads to very bad results, from living that way and experiencing those results. I also think it rather silly to assume that I can live in that way and that everything will magically turn out ok when I die, hence my fear of hell does extend beyond this life but mostly it is based in knowledge gained from this life.
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: I don't particularly care what your church experience or your experiences at home growing up were like, that is what I mean by conditioning, all our experiences produce conditioning, hence people who have bad experiences with Christianity growing up are conditioned to respond negatively to Christianity. It's a conditioned response based on your early life experiences. Likes and dislikes are conditioned. All I was doing was pointing out that when the Bible says that our bodies are not our own, it is expressing something that is very specific and true. Anyone who has ever experienced a high level of ego transcendence even just momentarily, understands that the ego is a non entity, it is created moment to moment by thoughts, thus giving it the illusion of continuity. When the mind is lost in thoughts it is assumed that their is a thinker but when attention is turned inward in search of this thinker the other thoughts vanish because the thoughts and the entity of the thinker are not really separate. Because the ego is a non entity, how could the body possibly belong to it? The body belongs to God/Nature/Reality (whatever you want to call it) just like everything else. It is only the ego which makes people think otherwise. Anyway, I just felt the need to point that out. I realize you didn't necessarily say it was untrue, only that it did more harm than good but also consider that being true, saying that that teaching did more harm than good is a bit like saying that "being raised in a household that taught that raisins are made from grapes did more harm than good". Of course I realize that it was not just that, but other aspects of the way Christianity was presented to you that you believe were harmful but it still sounded a bit odd to me to read something that is true being presented as harmful. The truth is not to be feared.
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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Quote: You're too incredibly lucid to just manifest out of nowhere on these forums. If you're ever in Portland, OR please shoot me a message, would love to talk.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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Quote: I think it's silly to think that things aren't okay now. Every psychedelic experience I've had has indicated to me just that, that I'm absolutely okay just the way I am. My 'soul' is not afflicted, but my mind was agitated, crippling me from seeing the entirety of my life with clarity. Free yourself from this illusory drama, and what pain there is, is really only a fraction of who you are and what life is all about. It's doesn't have to be this all encompassing thing that your mind has made it out to be. That's what psychological 'hell on earth' is in my estimation. If a theoretical afterlife is just an extension of this life, there's no reason to draw a line between the two, it's just another environment for you to liberate yourself from the drama, perhaps with less distraction. I get the impression that you're afraid that in an afterlife you will no longer have a body to do your 'spiritual work' or whatever, and you'll just be this bodiless entity stuck in the limbo of your own hell until your next incarnation o(is all quite ludicrous to imagine imo).... It's almost like you feel like you're taking one of those timed standardized tests in school, and that's what life is to you.... So you have to finish the test and pass in the allotted time, or well, you've fuckin failed the test. Then your sky God parents will be angry and oh lord who knows what's next. Death couldn't possibly be something you could trust, much like life, not when the evil eye of Sauron is watching. If some kind of trip like that has been laid on you, IMO, I think it sucks. My point has never been that you can ignore your problems and they'll go away, as you're right, they'll damned well likely be amplified, magnified, and more all encompassing if you grow comfortable with a fractured ego. But when the problem is that your mind is sick, you can't get rid of it, and being afraid of it is an extension of that same problem. It's better to learn to live with and understand it, heal your mind. -------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too. Edited by CosmicJoke (01/13/14 03:47 PM)
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Again, I think you're way off base in the assumptions you are making about me. I also have experienced the fact that everything is ok just how it is. Everything is proceeding according to God's divine will. However, it is the agitated mind that makes it seem otherwise. Hence the need to free oneself from the illusory drama. When you are suffering a mental or physical hell it does very little use to tell yourself "everything is ok just as it is". Who cares if everything is ok? If youre experience of everything is hell, then it's not ok for you. So what do you do about it? You can go out and try to earn lots of money to try to buy comforts for yourself and make your hell a little more comfortable for a short while or you can seek spiritual realization and experience the fact that everything is ok all the time without the constant need for some form of comfort or entertainment. Basically all the ego does is look ahead to the next moment hoping things will get a little better. I am very sick of living that way, hence why I am into spiritual practice.
Quote: I never said that one needed to draw a line between the two, however the future is never certain, especially a theoretical future that takes place after death, hence the need to seek liberation here and now. Quote: Where did you get an idea like this? The most basic Christian virtue is faith. We are called to trust God always and completely, in life and especially in death. If one can do this, he will suffer no fear or anxiety. Of course it is easier said than done but I don't understand where you are getting these ideas that I think God is not to be trusted. I have simply been through a LOT of suffering in my life, mostly all of it my fault, I mean my fault in the sense that it was linked to my own decisions and reactions and immaturity and all this suffering has made me quite fearful of more suffering. It's not something that anyone laid on me, or that I developed from reading descriptions of hell, it's a result of directly experiencing unbelievable extreme suffering and this has drastically shaped how I see life. Once you recognize the reality of this kind of suffering, you cease being able to take descriptions of hell lightly. It's like when a young kid who has never been through anything severe in his life watches footage of the holocaust for the first time. Sure, its quite disturbing but I do not believe the child can fully grasp the reality and magnitude of the suffering until he has experienced extreme prolonged suffering himself. It's just too unpleasant for the mind to think about. The ego cannot handle the thought of such suffering because it finds it challenging to its own existence, so it shuts it out and pretends that it is something that only happens to "other" people.
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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Well, I definitely agree that placating your mind with the variety of pacifiers in life isn't going to make you any less miserable - you'll still be quite miserable, but will just care less. While I do believe that practices like meditation and yoga will help you see the bigger picture of your life, I also think you have to deal with the stuff that is making you anxious. You won't be able to superman your way beyond it by dropping out from your responsibilities and taking on a spiritual practice like it's a full time job.
If things like debt, inability to pay your bills, and the capacity to live independently are crippling you, you're going to have to solve these issues to live a better life. That's something all together different than having motives to drive a Porsche and taking vacations to Ibiza. Your life could be equally as rewarding with a low stress job that pays your bills, a library card, nature hikes, hobbies like plant identification, and intellectual conversations with friends .I get that your life has had a lot of trauma, but you don't get how others would see your total fixation with Christianity & Enlightenment as penance for your past mistakes. We don't really get to see you as a full person here, but as yet another role, Deviate the martyr. -------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Where did I say I thought that I didn't have to deal with the stuff that makes me anxious? In terms of not having money and my problems along those lines, I lost my job back in september and have struggled with motivation to find another one although I recently got hired as a substitute teacher. I am just going through a difficult period right now, I think things will work out eventually and I will live a more balanced life.
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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Quote: Congrats man, I'm really happy to hear that. I could pull up the post in another thread we talked where you had said something like you had been such a massive failure on a material level no job, money, barely enough food, girlfriend etc. that spiritual realization was all that mattered. The way I see it, spiritual realization may greatly humble your ideas on what it means to be materially successful (freeing yourself from an endless paper chase of excess, fast cars, super models, etc.), However, if you aren't successful on a material level,you're going to be quite miserable in life. Instead, find fulfillment out of truthful ideals on material success, where having a stable job, a roof over your head, some good books, hobbies, practices, and ideally a few friends/loved ones are meaningful to you. As stated in Be Here Now, you still gotta "chop wood, carry water". It concerned me, as I've heard other people on these forums say some incredibly unrealistic nonsense, where they similarly dropped out, but when nobody was around to carry them anymore, their plans were to live out their days as a homeless, wandering mystic on an island in Hawaii. There's a lot of denial here, apparently an interest in spirituality can feed it. Some people here are in for a big wake up call some day in my estimation. I hope that since you actually follow through with a practice that includes meditation, that it genuinely helps your life. Despite my suspicions on the Christian motifs, if your life is now moving in this direction for the first time, I concede that it may be helping. -------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too. Edited by CosmicJoke (01/14/14 02:52 PM)
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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I think it's difficult to get an accurate idea about me, just from reading my posts on here.
No doubt, I have a lot of problems but I am hesitant to take advice from people who know very little about me and for that reason I may seem stubborn or defensive at times. I used to have a job and had plenty of money, well not a huge amount of money but enough to support my meager lifestyle. But I was incredibly miserable all those years because my mind was such a mess. Only very recently, in the past year, did I begin a process of real healing and my mind today vs one year ago is as different as Mexico City is from Copenhagen. The remarkable changes that were going on around the same time that I lost my job, caused me to focus on myself, rather than looking for work. I never intended it to be a permanent thing I just constantly felt as though a major transformation was right around the corner and if I would just keep working on myself it would only be a few days away. Well, that turned out not to be true exactly, it took a lot more than a few days but now that it has been several months I do feel as though I have gone through a major change and I also feel as though I am ready to begin to re-engage with the world. I was so ill, I just needed some time to do nothing but work on personal healing. It's unfortunate that I wasn't in a better situation financially, where I could have just relaxed but I did what I felt like I needed to do and decided I would face the consequences later. Looking back, I kind of wish I had found some type of job just to have a little cash but I cant go back now. I still feel as though spiritual realization is all that matters, but I dont see that as incompatible with work and other activities. In my experience, when realization reaches a certain level, that seeking energy that causes you to think of nothing but spiritual realization begins to dissipate and you begin to live life again, because that's what its all about, just living life. We only to set aside so much time to seek spiritual realization, because we forgot how to just be and just live life naturally in the first place. Edited by Deviate (01/14/14 07:41 PM)
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happy mutant Registered: 04/05/00 Posts: 10,848 Loc: Portland, OR |
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Quote: Makes sense to me man, thanks for letting us in. Ever hear* that zen koan "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is."? If you look at your life in phases... The materialism, excessive drug abuse, and misery... The phase of dropping out and intense purifying - and then finally reintegrating and living a middle path... Maybe that clarifies things? -------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too. Edited by CosmicJoke (01/14/14 08:10 PM)
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Registered: 02/10/13 Posts: 6,268 |
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I answered maybe
used to be religious to some extent, then atheist few years due to science edu, then agnostic, then theistic agnostic ;-) screw those terms, I just acknowledge that science doesnt know it all and probably never will neither does religion know it all I have no need to know it all, but I believe in God it is up to the individual how he/she defines god or doesnt define God I would say my psychedelics wouldnt have changed much, but science edu did change me a bit away from my normal beliefs for a while but after reducing stress my beliefs became the usual... no need to believe in everything science says as the universal governor of the universe
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Its like a Dan Brown novel with me mixed with David Icke and a Beautiful Mind.
What a mess this theology is.

all the way.

You're too incredibly lucid to just manifest out of nowhere on these forums. 