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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Patchouli_Savage]
    #19410898 - 01/13/14 01:33 AM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Patchouli_Savage said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Being a female raised in a household that follows a patriarchal religion that regularly tells you your body is not yours, it's "God's" did me far more harm than good. Sometimes I think I'm still recovering from that conditioning.




The conditioning was in your mind, created by your mind. Our bodies certainly are not "ours". Did you create your body? No. Do you have control over it's fate/when it will die? No. Christianity simply seeks to wake up to the fact that our egos have no control and certainly no ownership, of anything.




No, the brainwashing was most certainly external and not "in my own mind." Growing up in a household where you cannot even question what you are being spoon fed without someone telling you not to even think such blasphemous thoughts for fear of being damned to hell, that is brainwashing. That is some heavy shit to lay on a child and if ever I had Death Anxiety it was when I was a child being reminded that a lake of fire was waiting for me 80 years down the line if I didn't THINK "right." Do I think my parents were being devious in trying to pass down their beliefs and attitudes because they were raised Christian? No. I think they felt it was the only way to teach me right from wrong.

What I saw, and what I heard among the Church Community was a lot of men sitting around cherry-picking the Bible to find scripture to justify placing their importance above the importance of any woman while their wives sat silently beside them. "The man is the head of his household and the woman shall submit." Blah blah blah. Not all men mind you; I am not trying to sit here and bash men, but I heard this sort of talk enough to make an impression on me. It was a whole lot of testosterone-fueled ego being justified by some book which is "interpreted to you as intended through the HOLY SPIRIT that GOD has placed within you," if you ask me.

Did I create my body? No, but I am driving it for the duration of this lifetime, however long or short it may be. This time around I am called Patchouli_Savage, and I am experiencing a life through it, using its brain to formulate thoughts and contemplate my own experiences and feelings. When this body ceases to be alive, I do not know what happens, and I am okay with that. I am here now. In the grand scheme of things I do not believe I am in control of my own fate, but I've got a hand in how I live my life and how I behave on a day to day basis, and that, for me, is enough.

In order to "wake up to the fact that our egos have no control and certainly no ownership, of anything" I had to let go of Christianity. If you found Christianity and it works for you, then I am truly happy for you and hope that you continue to walk joyously on your path. In elaborating my response to the thread as briefly and concisely as I could, I was certainly not trying to put anyone down for their faith (or lack of it, for that matter) and the path they have chosen. I was simply sharing the path I have found in leaving another behind. Whatever the case, this road has been and continues to be working for me. It's not the same for everybody, and that is completely and totally okay.




:thefuckisthis: You're too incredibly lucid to just manifest out of nowhere on these forums. :lol:  If you're ever in Portland, OR please shoot me a message, would love to talk.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Deviate]
    #19410909 - 01/13/14 01:44 AM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:

As for your last statements, I believe they are off base. First of all, fear of hell is not my main motivation for spiritual practice, secondly my fears of hell and ideas about it are not limited to ideas about the afterlife. I look at life after death as being in many ways a continuation of this current life. In my current life I have already observed how allowing my ego to run my life leads to a state of hell on earth, and believe I have been through hell on earth and then some. So my fears about hell are from direct experience, not some made up belief or conjecture. I understand that there is a certain way of living that leads to very bad results, from living that way and experiencing those results. I also think it rather silly to assume that I can live in that way and that everything will magically turn out ok when I die, hence my fear of hell does extend beyond this life but mostly it is based in knowledge gained from this life.




I think it's silly to think that things aren't okay now.  Every psychedelic experience I've had has indicated to me just that, that I'm absolutely okay just the way I am.  My 'soul' is not afflicted, but my mind was agitated, crippling me from seeing the entirety of my life with clarity.  Free yourself from this illusory drama, and what pain there is, is really only a fraction of who you are and what life is all about.  It's doesn't have to be this all encompassing thing that your mind has made it out to be.  That's what psychological 'hell on earth' is in my estimation.

If a theoretical afterlife is just an extension of this life, there's no reason to draw a line between the two, it's just another environment for you to liberate yourself from the drama, perhaps with less distraction.

I get the impression that you're afraid that in an afterlife you will no longer have a body to do your 'spiritual work' or whatever, and you'll just be this bodiless entity stuck in the limbo of your own hell until your next incarnation o(is all quite ludicrous to imagine imo)....

It's almost like you feel like you're taking one of those timed standardized tests in school, and that's what life is to you.... So you have to finish the test and pass in the allotted time, or well, you've fuckin failed the test. Then your sky God parents will be angry and oh lord who knows what's next.  Death couldn't possibly be something you could trust, much like life, not when the evil eye of Sauron is watching.  If some kind of trip like that has been laid on you, IMO, I think it sucks.

My point has never been that you can ignore your problems and they'll go away, as you're right, they'll damned well likely be amplified, magnified, and more all encompassing if you grow comfortable with a fractured ego.  But when the problem is that your mind is sick, you can't get rid of it, and being afraid of it is an extension of that same problem.  It's better to learn to live with and understand it, heal your mind.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Edited by CosmicJoke (01/13/14 03:47 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19413610 - 01/13/14 06:06 PM (10 years, 17 days ago)

Again, I think you're way off base in the assumptions you are making about me. I also have experienced the fact that everything is ok just how it is. Everything is proceeding according to God's divine will. However, it is the agitated mind that makes it seem otherwise. Hence the need to free oneself from the illusory drama. When you are suffering a mental or physical hell it does very little use to tell yourself "everything is ok just as it is". Who cares if everything is ok? If youre experience of everything is hell, then it's not ok for you. So what do you do about it? You can go out and try to earn lots of money to try to buy comforts for yourself and make your hell a little more comfortable for a short while or you can seek spiritual realization and experience the fact that everything is ok all the time without the constant need for some form of comfort or entertainment. Basically all the ego does is look ahead to the next moment hoping things will get a little better. I am very sick of living that way, hence why I am into spiritual practice.

Quote:


If a theoretical afterlife is just an extension of this life, there's no reason to draw a line between the two, it's just another environment for you to liberate yourself from the drama, perhaps with less distraction.

I get the impression that you're afraid that in an afterlife you will no longer have a body to do your 'spiritual work' or whatever, and you'll just be this bodiless entity stuck in the limbo of your own hell until your next incarnation o(is all quite ludicrous to imagine imo)....




I never said that one needed to draw a line between the two, however the future is never certain, especially a theoretical future that takes place after death, hence the need to seek liberation here and now.

Quote:



It's almost like you feel like you're taking one of those timed standardized tests in school, and that's what life is to you.... So you have to finish the test and pass in the allotted time, or well, you've fuckin failed the test. Then your sky God parents will be angry and oh lord who knows what's next.  Death couldn't possibly be something you could trust, much like life, not when the evil eye of Sauron is watching.  If some kind of trip like that has been laid on you, IMO, I think it sucks.




Where did you get an idea like this? The most basic Christian virtue is faith. We are called to trust God always and completely, in life and especially in death. If one can do this, he will suffer no fear or anxiety. Of course it is easier said than done but I don't understand where you are getting these ideas that I think God is not to be trusted.

I have simply been through a LOT of suffering in my life, mostly all of it my fault, I mean my fault in the sense that it was linked to my own decisions and reactions and immaturity and all this suffering has made me quite fearful of more suffering. It's not something that anyone laid on me, or that I developed from reading descriptions of hell, it's a result of directly experiencing unbelievable extreme suffering and this has drastically shaped how I see life. Once you recognize the reality of this kind of suffering, you cease being able to take descriptions of hell lightly. It's like when a young kid who has never been through anything severe in his life watches footage of the holocaust for the first time. Sure, its quite disturbing but I do not believe the child can fully grasp the reality and magnitude of the suffering until he has experienced extreme prolonged suffering himself. It's just too unpleasant for the mind to think about. The ego cannot handle the thought of such suffering because it finds it challenging to its own existence, so it shuts it out and pretends that it is something that only happens to "other" people.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Registered: 04/05/00
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Deviate]
    #19417152 - 01/14/14 12:27 PM (10 years, 16 days ago)

Well, I definitely agree that placating your mind with the variety of pacifiers in life isn't going to make you any less miserable - you'll still be quite miserable, but will just care less.  While I do believe that practices like meditation and yoga will help you see the bigger picture of your life,  I also think you have to deal with the stuff that is making you anxious.  You won't be able to superman your way beyond it by dropping out from your responsibilities and taking on a spiritual practice like it's a full time job. 

If things like debt, inability to pay your bills, and the capacity to live independently are crippling you, you're going to have to solve these issues to live a better life.  That's something all together different than having motives to drive a Porsche and taking vacations to Ibiza.  Your life could be equally as rewarding with a low stress job that pays your bills, a library card, nature hikes, hobbies like plant identification, and intellectual conversations with friends :shrug:.

I get that your life has had a lot of trauma,  but you don't get how others would see your total fixation with Christianity & Enlightenment as penance for your past mistakes.  We don't really get to see you as a full person here, but as yet another role, Deviate the martyr.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19417295 - 01/14/14 01:02 PM (10 years, 16 days ago)

Where did I say I thought that I didn't have to deal with the stuff that makes me anxious? In terms of not having money and my problems along those lines, I lost my job back in september and have struggled with motivation to find another one although I recently got hired as a substitute teacher. I am just going through a difficult period right now, I think things will work out eventually and I will live a more balanced life.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Deviate]
    #19417370 - 01/14/14 01:23 PM (10 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Where did I say I thought that I didn't have to deal with the stuff that makes me anxious? In terms of not having money and my problems along those lines, I lost my job back in september and have struggled with motivation to find another one although I recently got hired as a substitute teacher. I am just going through a difficult period right now, I think things will work out eventually and I will live a more balanced life.




Congrats man, I'm really happy to hear that.  I could pull up the post in another thread we talked where you had said something like you had been such a massive failure on a material level no job, money, barely enough food, girlfriend etc. that spiritual realization was all that mattered. 

The way I see it, spiritual realization may greatly humble your ideas on what it means to be materially successful  (freeing yourself from an endless paper chase of excess, fast cars, super models, etc.), However, if you aren't successful on a material level,you're going to be quite miserable in life.  Instead, find fulfillment out of truthful ideals on material success, where having a stable job, a roof over your head, some good books, hobbies, practices, and ideally a few friends/loved ones are meaningful to you. As stated in Be Here Now, you still gotta "chop wood, carry water". 

It concerned me, as I've heard other people on these forums say some incredibly unrealistic nonsense,  where they similarly dropped out, but when nobody was around to carry them anymore, their plans were to live out their days as a homeless, wandering mystic on an island in Hawaii.  There's a lot of denial here, apparently an interest in spirituality can feed it.  Some people here are in for a big wake up call some day in my estimation.  I hope that since you actually follow through with a practice that includes meditation, that it genuinely helps your life.  Despite my suspicions on the Christian motifs, if your life is now moving in this direction for the first time, I concede that it may be helping.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Edited by CosmicJoke (01/14/14 02:52 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19419236 - 01/14/14 07:37 PM (10 years, 16 days ago)

I think it's difficult to get an accurate idea about me, just from reading my posts on here.

No doubt, I have a lot of problems but I am hesitant to take advice from people who know very little about me and for that reason I may seem stubborn or defensive at times.

I used to have a job and had plenty of money, well not a huge amount of money but enough to support my meager lifestyle. But I was incredibly miserable all those years because my mind was such a mess. Only very recently, in the past year, did I begin a process of real healing and my mind today vs one year ago is as different as Mexico City is from Copenhagen. The remarkable changes that were going on around the same time that I lost my job, caused me to focus on myself, rather than looking for work. I never intended it to be a permanent thing I just constantly felt as though a major transformation was right around the corner and if I would just keep working on myself it would only be a few days away. Well, that turned out not to be true exactly, it took a lot more than a few days but now that it has been several months I do feel as though I have gone through a major change and I also feel as though I am ready to begin to re-engage with the world.

I was so ill, I just needed some time to do nothing but work on personal healing. It's unfortunate that I wasn't in a better situation financially, where I could have just relaxed but I did what I felt like I needed to do and decided I would face the consequences later. Looking back, I kind of wish I had found some type of job just to have a little cash but I cant go back now.

I still feel as though spiritual realization is all that matters, but I dont see that as incompatible with work and other activities. In my experience, when realization reaches a certain level, that seeking energy that causes you to think of nothing but spiritual realization begins to dissipate and you begin to live life again, because that's what its all about, just living life. We only to set aside so much time to seek spiritual realization, because we forgot how to just be and just live life naturally in the first place.


Edited by Deviate (01/14/14 07:41 PM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Deviate]
    #19419277 - 01/14/14 07:44 PM (10 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I think it's difficult to get an accurate idea about me, just from reading my posts on here.

No doubt, I have a lot of problems but I am hesitant to take advice from people who know very little about me and for that reason I may seem stubborn or defensive at times.

I used to have a job and had plenty of money, well not a huge amount of money but enough to support my meager lifestyle. But I was incredibly miserable all those years because my mind was such a mess. Only very recently, in the past year, did I begin a process of real healing and my mind today vs one year ago is as different as Mexico City is from Copenhagen. The remarkable changes that were going on around the same time that I lost my job, caused me to focus on myself, rather than looking for work. I never intended it to be a permanent thing I just constantly felt as though a major transformation was right around the corner and if I would just keep working on myself it would only be a few days away. Well, that turned out not to be true exactly, it took a lot more than a few days but now that it has been several months I do feel as though I have gone through a major change and I also feel as though I am ready to begin to re-engage with the world.

I was so ill, I just needed some time to do nothing but work on personal healing. It's unfortunate that I wasn't in a better situation financially, where I could have just relaxed but I did what I felt like I needed to do and decided I would face the consequences later. Looking back, I kind of wish I had found some type of job just to have a little cash but I cant go back now.




Makes sense to me man, thanks for letting us in.  Ever hear* that zen koan "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is."?

If you look at your life in phases... The materialism, excessive drug abuse, and misery... The phase of dropping out and intense purifying -  and then finally reintegrating and living a middle path... Maybe that clarifies things?


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Edited by CosmicJoke (01/14/14 08:10 PM)


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19419316 - 01/14/14 07:51 PM (10 years, 16 days ago)

I answered maybe

used to be religious to some extent, then atheist few years due to science edu, then agnostic, then theistic agnostic ;-)

screw those terms, I just acknowledge that science doesnt know it all and probably never will

neither does religion know it all

I have no need to know it all, but I believe in God
it is up to the individual how he/she defines god or doesnt define God

I would say my psychedelics wouldnt have changed much, but science edu did change me a bit away from my normal beliefs for a while
but after reducing stress my beliefs became the usual... no need to believe in everything science says as the universal governor of the universe


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