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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19392674 - 01/09/14 08:42 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19396319 - 01/09/14 10:38 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
I don't particularly agree with you, I think an atheist who was "introspective" would probably have developed an interest in psychology.  An atheist with a strong interest on "the nature of existence" might have taken an interest in the hard sciences, and perhaps went on to study physics in college. 

However, an atheist looking for answers about the 'nature of existence' from the philosophers of antiquity is already of great suspect to ultimately convert to religious belief imho.




Uh, that supports my point that you can't just lump all atheists together.



Quote:


It's one thing to want a solid understanding of the history and culture that these philosophers were born out of and try to get into their mind, and really understand why they were thinking the way they did.  It's quite another to put any real stock into their contributions as even possibly having any actual insight into the 'nature of existence', that is their contribution to the realm of philosophy known as metaphysics. Do you at all see how your beliefs then might have already had many parallels to religious thinking?




Of course and any atheist who has converted is going to in retrospect see how elements of their old interests and worldview served as pre-cursors to whatever conversion later occurred. Things don't just happen out of nowhere, there is always something leading up to it. What's your point? I thought your whole argument was that if not for psychedelics, then I would have become a Christian as soon as I got a little scared of death and that I would have become a totally different kind of Christian from the one I have become apparently? Isn't that what you said? My response was not to say that I would never have converted if not for psychedelics, I was saying that I would not have converted simply because I was afraid of death, which happened to me many times and failed to bring about a conversion. It's really unclear what you're even saying anymore or rather it seems to change every time I point out a flaw. If I found God through philosophy what makes you think that is inferior to finding him through psychedelics anyway? What are you saying exactly?


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Deviate]
    #19396501 - 01/09/14 11:22 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Uh, that supports my point that you can't just lump all atheists together.





No, but I can lump all 'magical thinkers', as OrgoneConclusion would put it, together for a moment to make a point, in which some atheists might fall into such a subset, even if they were in denial about it. 

My point was never that finding God through psychedelics was superior to finding God through philosophy, rather that those Atheist philosophers who pondered the paradoxes of space, time, and the nature of existence while high on grass aren't quite as 'deeply intellectually invested in the materialistic worldview' as they might want to see themselves... My guess is you were never quite the atheist kid doing a thesis on carrier dynamics and nonlinear effects in quantum cascade lasers using femtosecond mid-infrared pulses.  A materialist who is a 'truth seeker' would be akin to such a scientist, psychologically that's what nourishes them, while what was mentally feeding you was 'arts & sciences', which just aren't particularly materialistic. 

When somebody believes in evolution but prefers to spend their time thinking philosophically about metaphysical riddles, I'm not at all surprised when their ideas about reality start shifting away from scientific materialism.  But I must confess, in my estimation, you're a peculiar amalgamation of beliefs, some seem a product of  psychedelic, "spiritual" mind-manifesting experiences and others religious fundamentalism and death anxiety.

Maybe some day those materialists will develop a perfect sim Deviate and we can sit back and watch what each set of stimulus conditions would have done and settle this dispute once and forever. :wink:






--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Edited by CosmicJoke (01/10/14 12:09 PM)


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Offlinenitten
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ] * 1
    #19397130 - 01/10/14 02:45 AM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Up until my first DMT breakthrough, I was a narrow-minded, judgmental dick.


--------------------
~nitten~


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19399427 - 01/10/14 02:28 PM (10 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Uh, that supports my point that you can't just lump all atheists together.





No, but I can lump all 'magical thinkers', as OrgoneConclusion would put it, together for a moment to make a point, in which some atheists might fall into such a subset, even if they were in denial about it. 

My point was never that finding God through psychedelics was superior to finding God through philosophy, rather that those Atheist philosophers who pondered the paradoxes of space, time, and the nature of existence while high on grass aren't quite as 'deeply intellectually invested in the materialistic worldview' as they might want to see themselves... My guess is you were never quite the atheist kid doing a thesis on carrier dynamics and nonlinear effects in quantum cascade lasers using femtosecond mid-infrared pulses.  A materialist who is a 'truth seeker' would be akin to such a scientist, psychologically that's what nourishes them, while what was mentally feeding you was 'arts & sciences', which just aren't particularly materialistic. 

When somebody believes in evolution but prefers to spend their time thinking philosophically about metaphysical riddles, I'm not at all surprised when their ideas about reality start shifting away from scientific materialism.  But I must confess, in my estimation, you're a peculiar amalgamation of beliefs, some seem a product of  psychedelic, "spiritual" mind-manifesting experiences and others religious fundamentalism and death anxiety.

Maybe some day those materialists will develop a perfect sim Deviate and we can sit back and watch what each set of stimulus conditions would have done and settle this dispute once and forever. :wink:






I'm still not understanding what your point is. I get the fact that you think there were "signs" that my thinking might shift later in life. Ok? So What? The fact that those signs were present does not necessarily mean they would have become manifest as a reality had they not been adequately triggered. Psychedelics were that trigger for me. We can't say what would have happened without them and that is what I said from the beginning of the thread. But when I say I was deeply invested in a materialistic mindset, I mean that I irrationally rejected absolutely everything that suggested we might be spiritual beings and it took quite a lot for me to change that stance. FOr me, the psychedelic experience was a major re-orientation of my sensory experience. It may not be that for everyone but for me it was. 


Quote:


My point was never that finding God through psychedelics was superior to finding God through philosophy, rather that those Atheist philosophers who pondered the paradoxes of space, time, and the nature of existence while high on grass aren't quite as 'deeply intellectually invested in the materialistic worldview' as they might want to see themselves...




But how could that possibly have been your point when that's not what we were talking about? You asked what kind of Christian I would have become, if not for psychedelics, as if had I not taken psychedelics my orientation toward the spiritual life would be completely different from what it was today. I am saying that yes it might be completely different in the sense that I would still reject the spiritual life. But you seemed to disagree and claim that no as soon as I got scared of dying I would have become a "christian" but with no mystical understanding of the scriptures. I find that highly unlikely. Now you keep changing what youre saying as I mentioned before, because we didn't even get to talking about different breeds of atheists until I brought it up. Therefore, your original point could not have been that "Atheist philosophers who pondered the paradoxes of space, time, and the nature of existence while high on grass aren't quite as 'deeply intellectually invested in the materialistic worldview' as they might want to see themselves..." because I hadn't even mentioned that yet.


Edited by Deviate (01/10/14 02:34 PM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Deviate]
    #19399652 - 01/10/14 03:19 PM (10 years, 20 days ago)

So you feel like you would have continued with the what you call an irrational behavior (your version of atheism), rather than adopting a radically different line of irrational behavior (fundamentalist Christianity) when presented with a close call with death.  You could be right Deviate, it's your life, but I'm not convinced. 
That's the thing about irrationality, it's mostly clinging to one fad/trend after another, not based on logic.  You did adopt a radically different belief system after taking a ton of drugs, so it seems totally plausible to me that a similar shock to the nervous system (close call with death) could have produced comparable results in changing your beliefs.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineDon Wrigley
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19406249 - 01/11/14 11:11 PM (10 years, 19 days ago)

Marijuana and the Grateful Dead did it for me [and many others]. :ooo:


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Offlinesadspacemonkey
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #19407347 - 01/12/14 08:30 AM (10 years, 19 days ago)

I was something of a curious agnostic before trying psychedelics...I found it difficult to believe in anything I couldn't experience with my five senses, but found the spiritual philosophy behind the Vedas and Buddhist texts extremely interesting and holding an important seed of truth. It was a combination of what I believe to be the spiritual entity that works through mushrooms as well as some life experiences that led me to feel directly the experience of higher powers and the one-ness of the universe. I may have gotten to that place without the aid of the psychedelic experience, but it would have been a different road with perhaps a slightly different interpretation of it all.

As for Christianity and other socially acceptable religions - I think there is a bit of truth in it, but awash in many lies and the trap of self-importance (which I've almost bitten quite a few times myself.) I think the force of the universe can work through many channels but to think that ones own perspective is the *only* way, the only version of goodness is blind to much of what is (study religions of the world and there are many similar patterns...why would one be more true than the other? why condemn your brother or sister because they choose a different path to the same place?) we all experience love in accordance to our open-ness to it and I think to some extent on love's terms...opening us up according to our ability to accept more of the eternal grace beyond life and death..


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19408352 - 01/12/14 01:24 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
So you feel like you would have continued with the what you call an irrational behavior (your version of atheism), rather than adopting a radically different line of irrational behavior (fundamentalist Christianity) when presented with a close call with death.  You could be right Deviate, it's your life, but I'm not convinced. 
That's the thing about irrationality, it's mostly clinging to one fad/trend after another, not based on logic.  You did adopt a radically different belief system after taking a ton of drugs, so it seems totally plausible to me that a similar shock to the nervous system (close call with death) could have produced comparable results in changing your beliefs.





That, in my opinion, is a very illogical point of view. Assuming that any kind "shock to the nervous system" would result in me suddenly seeing truth in things like the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita when I had no interest or understanding before, is really a stretch, its like saying hitting someone over the head with a hammer is the same as brain surgery. There's a difference between shocking the nervous system and divine revelation. My first several psychedelic experiences did not affect my atheism by the way. It was only after I started asking myself questions like "what if I focus on the high in this way and what if I start exploring myself in this way" that things began to change, so really it wasn't the drugs themselves but the process of exploring myself that lead to the changes. The drugs simply helped me focus my attention inwardly rather than having it being drawn outward by one of the many distractions we have in our society today. Now the process of exploring oneself is quite a different thing from a "shock to the nervous system" and I think you are making a great many assumptions which is never a good thing in my opinion.

Even were I to be frightened of death, that would not have shed any light on the meaning behind spiritual texts and without me understanding the meaning, It is highly unliely I would have found much interest in reading them. and why doesnt my DXM trip or many panic attack attacks count as close encounters with death? Those are the most scared Ive ever been and I really dont think it is possible for me to get more scared than a panic attack and it had absolutely no effect on my religious beliefs.

Christianity is not something you just believe in because you are frightened of death, not everyone gets to have eternal life according to Christianity. Christianity can be a much scarier belief system than scientific materialism if you are sinner.  If death is just nothing, than what the hell is there to be scared of? Why would an atheist even be afraid of death? Do you think I am scared to not exist? I actually used to find atheism comforting, atheism says you can do whatever you want, live however you want, just sit around doing drugs all day if you want, and you will end up in the exact same place as the greatest saint to ever live. While that might be very disturbing to well adjusted people who work hard and value their lives, it was very comforting for a lazy bum like me. The spiritual life is a very difficult life, it is anything but comforting and has actually caused me tremendous misery and made me near suicidal many times. Of course I hope that it will all be worth it one day but one thing i hate is the idea that it's easier to be a Christian than an atheist.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19408767 - 01/12/14 03:10 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
So you feel like you would have continued with the what you call an irrational behavior (your version of atheism), rather than adopting a radically different line of irrational behavior (fundamentalist Christianity) when presented with a close call with death.  You could be right Deviate, it's your life, but I'm not convinced. 
That's the thing about irrationality, it's mostly clinging to one fad/trend after another, not based on logic.  You did adopt a radically different belief system after taking a ton of drugs, so it seems totally plausible to me that a similar shock to the nervous system (close call with death) could have produced comparable results in changing your beliefs.





and
Quote:

But I must confess, in my estimation, you're a peculiar amalgamation of beliefs, some seem a product of  psychedelic, "spiritual" mind-manifesting experiences and others religious fundamentalism and death anxiety.




--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Deviate]
    #19408816 - 01/12/14 03:27 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

I've seen it happen in all regards.  I recall one documentary where a guy who was very materialistic, button down shirts,  chiropractor... One day he's out playing golf and strokes out.  He lives, but becomes very flat affected and has this constant tinnitus that's driving him insane.  He goes to the doctor for brain surgery to try and treat this tinnitus, signs waivers that it might kill him etc.  He just doesn't care since he's that miserable.

The surgery goes traumatically wrong, his brain starts hemorrhaging and they end up having to remove part of his cerebellum.  After waking up, he's no longer propelled by materialistic pursuits, but rather by his own psyche, he's totally drawn to painting.  He spends nearly all waking hours painting, and when he paints, he describes himself as being in this transcendent space where time and space just drop away, all feelings disappear, and when he's making art he doesn't feel hopeless or sad for any of that negative, bogus stuff, just pure consciousness.  He sounds very descriptive of unitive, mystical states, and you can totally see it reflected in his visionary art.

Similarly, I've seen documentaries with atheists who have had near death experiences convert to religious belief, and I've have personal experience with somebody who was once very turned on to psychedelics, Ram Dass, etc. have a heart attack and get scared and decided it was time to 'get right with God'.  It very much affected him negatively, as though in an instant of trauma he became less free.

Anyways, you can reason it out as much as you want, I'd agree many Christians are more tormented by neurotic fantasies about the afterlife, but atheists can be pretty damned scared about death too.  As long as you identify with that which dies, there will always be anxiety about death.  What our ego fears is the cessation of its own existence.  So it really doesn't matter if an atheist reasons it out that it's all over when they die, and that death would be no different than a dreamless sleep. It's a more sane belief, but their life is no easier than yours for it.  I'm pretty sure atheists wind up in tremendously miserable and suicidal states as well.  You have no clue if your life wouldn't have went in that same direction as an atheist.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Icelander]
    #19408854 - 01/12/14 03:35 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

I'm not a religious fundamentalist, fundamentalists (in my understanding) are people who believe in a very literal interpretation of their religion and also that their religion is the only right religion and all other people, even if they are devout followers of their respective religions and good people are going to hell. That's not me at all.

Now at times I might defend religious fundamentalists but that is only because of the fact that I place an extremely high value on sadhana. I believe that sadhana is so valuable that one is better off being a religious fundamentalist than an open minded person who doesn't have any spiritual practice. The thing about sadhana is that it doesn't really matter what context you practice it in, however misguided. If your intentions are genuinely directed at building virtue and love for God, then even if you are a fundamentalist, you will still be progressing spiritually. Fundamentalists are just people who are very stuck in a certain belief system. Its easy to look at them and think they are stupid but we must remind ourselves that we are also stuck in certain beliefs, just not so obviously as the fundamentalists.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19408898 - 01/12/14 03:45 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
I've seen it happen in all regards.  I recall one documentary where a guy who was very materialistic, button down shirts,  chiropractor... One day he's out playing golf and strokes out.  He lives, but becomes very flat affected and has this constant tinnitus that's driving him insane.  He goes to the doctor for brain surgery to try and treat this tinnitus, signs waivers that it might kill him etc.  He just doesn't care since he's that miserable.

The surgery goes traumatically wrong, his brain starts hemorrhaging and they end up having to remove part of his cerebellum.  After waking up, he's no longer propelled by materialistic pursuits, but rather by his own psyche, he's totally drawn to painting.  He spends nearly all waking hours painting, and when he paints, he describes himself as being in this transcendent space where time and space just drop away, all feelings disappear, and when he's making art he doesn't feel hopeless or sad for any of that negative, bogus stuff, just pure consciousness.  He sounds very descriptive of unitive, mystical states, and you can totally see it reflected in his visionary art.




Interesting story but I don't really see what any of this has to do with me.

Quote:


Similarly, I've seen documentaries with atheists who have had near death experiences convert to religious belief, and I've have personal experience with somebody who was once very turned on to psychedelics, Ram Dass, etc. have a heart attack and get scared and decided it was time to 'get right with God'.  It very much affected him negatively, as though in an instant of trauma he became less free.




Earlier I thought you said you were not talking about NDEs but just getting frightened of death, which I told you had already happened to me but failed to change my religious views. Are you saying that Dam Dass had a heart attack and decided it was time to get right with God?

Quote:


Anyways, you can reason it out as much as you want, I'd agree many Christians are more tormented by neurotic fantasies about the afterlife, but atheists can be pretty damned scared about death too.  As long as you identify with that which dies, there will always be anxiety about death.  What our ego fears is the cessation of its own existence.  So it really doesn't matter if an atheist reasons it out that it's all over when they die, and that death would be no different than a dreamless sleep. It's a more sane belief, but their life is no easier than yours for it.  I'm pretty sure atheists wind up in tremendously miserable and suicidal states as well.  You have no clue if your life wouldn't have went in that same direction as an atheist.




Well, yes of course fear of death is the very nature of the ego so anyone who has an ego is going to have some anxiety over death but I just look at that as another ego function, just like how if you are going to ask a girl out you might find yourself terrified even though you know there is nothing real to scared of.


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OfflinePatchouli_Savage
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ] * 1
    #19409005 - 01/12/14 04:16 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

I consider myself to be a spiritual person. Through communication with the Universe I find peace. If it wasn't for pot and psychedelics, I probably would still be brainwashed to be a Christian (no offense to those of you who choose to be of the Christian faith.)

The realization that I am not (and really never was) a Christian was a huge turning point for me. I have never felt so happy, free, or full of love for all living things, including myself. Being a female raised in a household that follows a patriarchal religion that regularly tells you your body is not yours, it's "God's" did me far more harm than good. Sometimes I think I'm still recovering from that conditioning.

So hooray for weed, mushrooms, and the occasional acid trip. :heart:


--------------------
"You are a ghost driving a meat coated skeleton made from stardust. What do you have to be scared of?"


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Patchouli_Savage]
    #19409778 - 01/12/14 07:28 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Being a female raised in a household that follows a patriarchal religion that regularly tells you your body is not yours, it's "God's" did me far more harm than good. Sometimes I think I'm still recovering from that conditioning.




The conditioning was in your mind, created by your mind. Our bodies certainly are not "ours". Did you create your body? No. Do you have control over it's fate/when it will die? No. Christianity simply seeks to wake up to the fact that our egos have no control and certainly no ownership, of anything.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Patchouli_Savage]
    #19410044 - 01/12/14 08:31 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Oy, I'm pretty much able to read your posts and get the gestalt of them, without dissecting each one and making point by point contentions. It's becoming cumbersome and tedious, and I have to wonder if we were communicating in person if we could accelerate past the humdrum shit and get into some interesting discussion.

I spoke of the visionary painter's story and the atheist's NDE religious conversions because they contrast your opinion that a shock to the nervous system cannot produce 'divine revelations', or that the psychedelics would only grant one a mystical experience after they had began to think about themselves in different ways.  The NDEs weren't relevant to me prior in the conversation, when I was merely trying to express that serious life altering traumas, that produce massive death anxiety,  can lead to a conversion to religious fundamentalism as a coping mechanism for some personality types.  Conversations evolve as each of us make new points (alas, some more organically than others). :shrug:

In my personal experience, I'm right there with you, because my first half a dozen psychedelic experiences did not have a mystical component either.  They were wonderful and bizarre, like something out of Alice and Wonderland, but it was all just wild stuff happening to me, and I hadn't experienced my sense of self in a radically different way.  I think those initial experiences were adventurous enough that it did pique my curiosity as to what might be at the end of the rabbit hole, so to speak, and the subsequent psychedelic literature (Leary, Ram Dass, Metzner, Watts, Huxley etc.) fueled my imagination and openness, for an inevitable breakthrough.

Yet  at the same time, LSD is one thing, which requires imho some guidance, readiness, and intention to have a fully psychedelic experience, while 60mg of vaped DMT is quite another.  You might have been rocketed right out of your ego into 'bathing in the Ocean of Existence' from your first trip had you started with off with a heavy dose of DMT.  You can bet your ass such a trip would put a spin on what you got out of reading the Gita. :lol:

Also, I was never saying that Ram Dass (one of my personal heroes) had a heart attack and decided it was time to get right in God, as that would obviously be hogwash - read it again more closely.  I had said that a fundamentalist I knew, who was once into psychedelics, reading Ram Dass _Be Here Now_, and all sorts of other eccentricities, became a very bland, sad little pamphlet-handing fundamentalist after his heart attack.  I don't think that your tough times on DXM really fall into the same jurisdiction as a heart attack, because your drug-induced delusions that you were dying aren't the same thing as knowing absolutely and certainly that you would have died without prompt medical intervention, so I guess we'll just have to disagree about that :shrug:.

Quote:

Well, yes of course fear of death is the very nature of the ego so anyone who has an ego is going to have some anxiety over death but I just look at that as another ego function, just like how if you are going to ask a girl out you might find yourself terrified even though you know there is nothing real to scared of.





This, on the other hand, I find quite lucid and quotable. Just like fear of rejection holds you back from living your life, fear of death does the same thing.  The reality is it's better to believe both rejection and death, are absolutely safe.  Just like death for an atheist might be a deep dreamless night's sleep, death for you can be merging with the All.  It's just more sane to believe something like this.  You still might have death anxiety, but you won't be exacerbating it with craziness about what bad punishment awaits you if you continue to be a lazy bum.  Find another source of motivation to wake up!


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Patchouli_Savage]
    #19410055 - 01/12/14 08:33 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Patchouli_Savage said:
I consider myself to be a spiritual person. Through communication with the Universe I find peace. If it wasn't for pot and psychedelics, I probably would still be brainwashed to be a Christian (no offense to those of you who choose to be of the Christian faith.)

The realization that I am not (and really never was) a Christian was a huge turning point for me. I have never felt so happy, free, or full of love for all living things, including myself. Being a female raised in a household that follows a patriarchal religion that regularly tells you your body is not yours, it's "God's" did me far more harm than good. Sometimes I think I'm still recovering from that conditioning.

So hooray for weed, mushrooms, and the occasional acid trip. :heart:





Nice report, welcome to The Shroomery!


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Deviate]
    #19410506 - 01/12/14 10:48 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Being a female raised in a household that follows a patriarchal religion that regularly tells you your body is not yours, it's "God's" did me far more harm than good. Sometimes I think I'm still recovering from that conditioning.




The conditioning was in your mind, created by your mind. Our bodies certainly are not "ours". Did you create your body? No. Do you have control over it's fate/when it will die? No. Christianity simply seeks to wake up to the fact that our egos have no control and certainly no ownership, of anything.




No, the brainwashing was most certainly external and not "in my own mind." Growing up in a household where you cannot even question what you are being spoon fed without someone telling you not to even think such blasphemous thoughts for fear of being damned to hell, that is brainwashing. That is some heavy shit to lay on a child and if ever I had Death Anxiety it was when I was a child being reminded that a lake of fire was waiting for me 80 years down the line if I didn't THINK "right." Do I think my parents were being devious in trying to pass down their beliefs and attitudes because they were raised Christian? No. I think they felt it was the only way to teach me right from wrong.

What I saw, and what I heard among the Church Community was a lot of men sitting around cherry-picking the Bible to find scripture to justify placing their importance above the importance of any woman while their wives sat silently beside them. "The man is the head of his household and the woman shall submit." Blah blah blah. Not all men mind you; I am not trying to sit here and bash men, but I heard this sort of talk enough to make an impression on me. It was a whole lot of testosterone-fueled ego being justified by some book which is "interpreted to you as intended through the HOLY SPIRIT that GOD has placed within you," if you ask me.

Did I create my body? No, but I am driving it for the duration of this lifetime, however long or short it may be. This time around I am called Patchouli_Savage, and I am experiencing a life through it, using its brain to formulate thoughts and contemplate my own experiences and feelings. When this body ceases to be alive, I do not know what happens, and I am okay with that. I am here now. In the grand scheme of things I do not believe I am in control of my own fate, but I've got a hand in how I live my life and how I behave on a day to day basis, and that, for me, is enough.

In order to "wake up to the fact that our egos have no control and certainly no ownership, of anything" I had to let go of Christianity. If you found Christianity and it works for you, then I am truly happy for you and hope that you continue to walk joyously on your path. In elaborating my response to the thread as briefly and concisely as I could, I was certainly not trying to put anyone down for their faith (or lack of it, for that matter) and the path they have chosen. I was simply sharing the path I have found in leaving another behind. Whatever the case, this road has been and continues to be working for me. It's not the same for everybody, and that is completely and totally okay.


--------------------
"You are a ghost driving a meat coated skeleton made from stardust. What do you have to be scared of?"


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19410537 - 01/12/14 11:03 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Oy, I'm pretty much able to read your posts and get the gestalt of them, without dissecting each one and making point by point contentions. It's becoming cumbersome and tedious, and I have to wonder if we were communicating in person if we could accelerate past the humdrum shit and get into some interesting discussion.

I spoke of the visionary painter's story and the atheist's NDE religious conversions because they contrast your opinion that a shock to the nervous system cannot produce 'divine revelations', or that the psychedelics would only grant one a mystical experience after they had began to think about themselves in different ways.  The NDEs weren't relevant to me prior in the conversation, when I was merely trying to express that serious life altering traumas, that produce massive death anxiety,  can lead to a conversion to religious fundamentalism as a coping mechanism for some personality types.  Conversations evolve as each of us make new points (alas, some more organically than others). :shrug:

In my personal experience, I'm right there with you, because my first half a dozen psychedelic experiences did not have a mystical component either.  They were wonderful and bizarre, like something out of Alice and Wonderland, but it was all just wild stuff happening to me, and I hadn't experienced my sense of self in a radically different way.  I think those initial experiences were adventurous enough that it did pique my curiosity as to what might be at the end of the rabbit hole, so to speak, and the subsequent psychedelic literature (Leary, Ram Dass, Metzner, Watts, Huxley etc.) fueled my imagination and openness, for an inevitable breakthrough.

Yet  at the same time, LSD is one thing, which requires imho some guidance, readiness, and intention to have a fully psychedelic experience, while 60mg of vaped DMT is quite another.  You might have been rocketed right out of your ego into 'bathing in the Ocean of Existence' from your first trip had you started with off with a heavy dose of DMT.  You can bet your ass such a trip would put a spin on what you got out of reading the Gita. :lol:

Also, I was never saying that Ram Dass (one of my personal heroes) had a heart attack and decided it was time to get right in God, as that would obviously be hogwash - read it again more closely.  I had said that a fundamentalist I knew, who was once into psychedelics, reading Ram Dass _Be Here Now_, and all sorts of other eccentricities, became a very bland, sad little pamphlet-handing fundamentalist after his heart attack.  I don't think that your tough times on DXM really fall into the same jurisdiction as a heart attack, because your drug-induced delusions that you were dying aren't the same thing as knowing absolutely and certainly that you would have died without prompt medical intervention, so I guess we'll just have to disagree about that :shrug:.

Quote:

Well, yes of course fear of death is the very nature of the ego so anyone who has an ego is going to have some anxiety over death but I just look at that as another ego function, just like how if you are going to ask a girl out you might find yourself terrified even though you know there is nothing real to scared of.





This, on the other hand, I find quite lucid and quotable. Just like fear of rejection holds you back from living your life, fear of death does the same thing.  The reality is it's better to believe both rejection and death, are absolutely safe.  Just like death for an atheist might be a deep dreamless night's sleep, death for you can be merging with the All.  It's just more sane to believe something like this.  You still might have death anxiety, but you won't be exacerbating it with craziness about what bad punishment awaits you if you continue to be a lazy bum.  Find another source of motivation to wake up!





Ok, I think I understand what you were trying to say better now. Btw, I despise point by point contentions and while they are at times useful or necessary, I am all for condensing things as much as possible. I have debated with people who break my posts down literally sentence by sentence every post I make and I feel like this is an absolutely inane way to communicate and all that it does is cause the discussion to fragment into a million tangents. I guess that could be considered their debate strategy, fragment the discussion to the point where I become too disinterested to continue and then claim they have one. I am very glad you are not like that. Anyway, all I have to say in response is that as the conversation evolved I was no longer sure what you were saying exactly.

As for your last statements, I believe they are off base. First of all, fear of hell is not my main motivation for spiritual practice, secondly my fears of hell and ideas about it are not limited to ideas about the afterlife. I look at life after death as being in many ways a continuation of this current life. In my current life I have already observed how allowing my ego to run my life leads to a state of hell on earth, and believe I have been through hell on earth and then some. So my fears about hell are from direct experience, not some made up belief or conjecture. I understand that there is a certain way of living that leads to very bad results, from living that way and experiencing those results. I also think it rather silly to assume that I can live in that way and that everything will magically turn out ok when I die, hence my fear of hell does extend beyond this life but mostly it is based in knowledge gained from this life.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Would you consider yourself religious/spiritual without drug exposure? [Re: Patchouli_Savage]
    #19410651 - 01/12/14 11:35 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Patchouli_Savage said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Being a female raised in a household that follows a patriarchal religion that regularly tells you your body is not yours, it's "God's" did me far more harm than good. Sometimes I think I'm still recovering from that conditioning.




The conditioning was in your mind, created by your mind. Our bodies certainly are not "ours". Did you create your body? No. Do you have control over it's fate/when it will die? No. Christianity simply seeks to wake up to the fact that our egos have no control and certainly no ownership, of anything.




No, the brainwashing was most certainly external and not "in my own mind." Growing up in a household where you cannot even question what you are being spoon fed without someone telling you not to even think such blasphemous thoughts for fear of being damned to hell, that is brainwashing. That is some heavy shit to lay on a child and if ever I had Death Anxiety it was when I was a child being reminded that a lake of fire was waiting for me 80 years down the line if I didn't THINK "right." Do I think my parents were being devious in trying to pass down their beliefs and attitudes because they were raised Christian? No. I think they felt it was the only way to teach me right from wrong.

What I saw, and what I heard among the Church Community was a lot of men sitting around cherry-picking the Bible to find scripture to justify placing their importance above the importance of any woman while their wives sat silently beside them. "The man is the head of his household and the woman shall submit." Blah blah blah. Not all men mind you; I am not trying to sit here and bash men, but I heard this sort of talk enough to make an impression on me. It was a whole lot of testosterone-fueled ego being justified by some book which is "interpreted to you as intended through the HOLY SPIRIT that GOD has placed within you," if you ask me.

Did I create my body? No, but I am driving it for the duration of this lifetime, however long or short it may be. This time around I am called Patchouli_Savage, and I am experiencing a life through it, using its brain to formulate thoughts and contemplate my own experiences and feelings. When this body ceases to be alive, I do not know what happens, and I am okay with that. I am here now. In the grand scheme of things I do not believe I am in control of my own fate, but I've got a hand in how I live my life and how I behave on a day to day basis, and that, for me, is enough.

In order to "wake up to the fact that our egos have no control and certainly no ownership, of anything" I had to let go of Christianity. If you found Christianity and it works for you, then I am truly happy for you and hope that you continue to walk joyously on your path. In elaborating my response to the thread as briefly and concisely as I could, I was certainly not trying to put anyone down for their faith (or lack of it, for that matter) and the path they have chosen. I was simply sharing the path I have found in leaving another behind. Whatever the case, this road has been and continues to be working for me. It's not the same for everybody, and that is completely and totally okay.




I don't particularly care what your church experience or your experiences at home growing up were like, that is what I mean by conditioning, all our experiences produce conditioning, hence people who have bad experiences with Christianity growing up are conditioned to respond negatively to Christianity. It's a conditioned response based on your early life experiences. Likes and dislikes are conditioned.

All I was doing was pointing out that when the Bible says that our bodies are not our own, it is expressing something that is very specific and true. Anyone who has ever experienced a high level of ego transcendence even just momentarily, understands that the ego is a non entity, it is created moment to moment by thoughts, thus giving it the illusion of continuity. When the mind is lost in thoughts it is assumed that their is a thinker but when attention is turned inward in search of this thinker the other thoughts vanish because the thoughts and the entity of the thinker are not really separate. Because the ego is a non entity,  how could the body possibly belong to it? The body belongs to God/Nature/Reality (whatever you want to call it) just like everything else. It is only the ego which makes people think otherwise.

Anyway, I just felt the need to point that out. I realize you didn't necessarily say it was untrue, only that it did more harm than good but also consider that being true, saying that that teaching did more harm than good is a bit like saying that "being raised in a household that taught that raisins are made from grapes did more harm than good". Of course I realize that it was not just that, but other aspects of the way Christianity was presented to you that you believe were harmful but it still sounded a bit odd to me to read something that is true being presented as harmful. The truth is not to be feared.


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