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Edmunter
Mr



Registered: 05/01/13
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Coco peat coir used as casing?
#19376623 - 01/06/14 10:11 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Edmunter]
#19376627 - 01/06/14 10:12 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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you can use coir for a casing material
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Tangich


Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 8,723
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Edmunter]
#19376630 - 01/06/14 10:12 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Coco coir is great as a casing material, especially mixed with vermiculite or perlite. Works as a substrate as well, if you have nothing else.
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Tangich]
#19376637 - 01/06/14 10:16 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Coir can work well as either. If you're growing Cubes though I'd forget about casing them and use it as bulk.
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HypnotoadCroaked
Retired, but will check MSGs

Registered: 01/05/13
Posts: 1,168
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Tangich]
#19376642 - 01/06/14 10:17 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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magickspore



Registered: 12/11/12
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Tangich]
#19376648 - 01/06/14 10:18 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Tangich said: Coco coir is great as a casing material, especially mixed with vermiculite or perlite. Works as a substrate as well, if you have nothing else.
Until someone proves this with consistent grows I think coir is NOT a good casing and IS a good sub.
If you can't find peat moss and you absolutely need a casing look into bubble wrap or wax paper. There are a few alternatives to a peat CASING.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: magickspore] 1
#19376655 - 01/06/14 10:19 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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lol i and many others had used it for years and some like it better then peat
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Tangich


Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 8,723
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: magickspore]
#19376667 - 01/06/14 10:25 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
magickspore said:
Quote:
Tangich said: Coco coir is great as a casing material, especially mixed with vermiculite or perlite. Works as a substrate as well, if you have nothing else.
Until someone proves this with consistent grows I think coir is NOT a good casing and IS a good sub.
If you can't find peat moss and you absolutely need a casing look into bubble wrap or wax paper. There are a few alternatives to a peat CASING.
People have been growing with coir casing for years, very successfully, before someone came out and said 'coir is rubbish and peat is the only thing to use', and everybody started parroting it.  Peat is a horrible material IME, but I mainly use it in gardening capacity, when I absolutely have to. And coir is great for that as well. And nothing beats horse manure for P. cubensis as a substrate, it's naturally preferred substrate for thousands of years, with some water retaining material added to make it even better.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Tangich]
#19376672 - 01/06/14 10:27 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Tangich said:
Quote:
magickspore said:
Quote:
Tangich said: Coco coir is great as a casing material, especially mixed with vermiculite or perlite. Works as a substrate as well, if you have nothing else.
Until someone proves this with consistent grows I think coir is NOT a good casing and IS a good sub.
If you can't find peat moss and you absolutely need a casing look into bubble wrap or wax paper. There are a few alternatives to a peat CASING.
People have been growing with coir casing for years, very successfully, before someone came out and said 'coir is rubbish and peat is the only thing to use', and everybody started parroting it.  Peat is a horrible material IME, but I mainly use it in gardening capacity, when I absolutely have to. And coir is great for that as well. And nothing beats horse manure for P. cubensis as a substrate, it's naturally preferred substrate for thousands of years, with some water retaining material added to mae it even better.
AMEN BRUTHA lol
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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HypnotoadCroaked
Retired, but will check MSGs

Registered: 01/05/13
Posts: 1,168
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: magickspore]
#19376679 - 01/06/14 10:29 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
magickspore said: Until someone proves this with consistent grows I think coir is NOT a good casing and IS a good sub.
I wish my last post came after yours.
Here something that I found out the other week via Roger Rabbit:
He stated that SPORES (All of them) will not germinate on coir. There is no proven reason why.
Logically:
A coir/verm casing will be colonized by the end of the first flush, no different than a peat/verm casing. There is a claim that "peat" is non-nutritive, but spores of all kinds will germinate and spread on it just as fast as horse poo and straw.
I started a test on this a month ago, and my tub is still clean....whereas my "neighborhood" is polluted with spores (I live in the middle of the woods). This is the longest I have had a tub in fruiting without contamination in 8 months. I directly attribute that with the change to coir/verm
http://www.shroomery.org/55/60-40-Vermiculite-and-Coco-Coir-Casing-Tek
Theory:
Obliviously as mycelium breaks the coir down, it becomes part of the mushroom...when the mushroom weakens IT becomes infected, not the substrate. Casing IMHO is less related to nutritional benefits. Casing is a verb. It is a process that produces the micro environment for pinning. Obviously you want to use a less than nutritious casing layer, but most of us agree that coir is really not all that nutritious. It can sit out for months without any growth whatsoever.
Magicspore: I consider it proven, and I highly recommend that you try and observe.
Quote:
Tangich said: People have been growing with coir casing for years, very successfully, before someone came out and said 'coir is rubbish and peat is the only thing to use
If you dig deep enough the info you are stating is actually on this web site. I did vast research on this and there is a 10 year old thread on this site where you can see the shift from using coir as a "casing" to the discovery that it made just as good a bulk as straw and h-poo. All the big players of this site had a hand in that thread.
If I find it, Ill edit and add it here.
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: cronicr]
#19376709 - 01/06/14 10:37 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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I guess it depends on what you consider a good. It holds quite a bit of moisture, is resistant to contamination, and mushrooms that require a casing layer will fruit on it.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Kizzle]
#19376718 - 01/06/14 10:39 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said: I guess it depends on what you consider a good. It holds quite a bit of moisture, is resistant to contamination, and mushrooms that require a casing layer will fruit on it.
thats what your looking for in a casing material lol, something to give you 100% humidity on the surface thats not gonna trich out on ya
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Edmunter
Mr



Registered: 05/01/13
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Kizzle]
#19376728 - 01/06/14 10:43 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Has anyone had success with wax paper and is there a thread /Tek for that u can recommend.
Or at least a comparison between wax paper and bubble wrap.
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Edmunter
Mr



Registered: 05/01/13
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Edmunter]
#19376733 - 01/06/14 10:44 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Im fruiting in a shot gun atm, hopefully moving to monotub soon, but can wax paper be used in this?
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Edmunter]
#19376740 - 01/06/14 10:46 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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wrinkle up the wax paper, no diffrent from the bubble wrap
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: cronicr]
#19376746 - 01/06/14 10:47 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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or just get proper fruiting conditions and neither will be needed i use those when i don't wanna use a fruiting chamber
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Edmunter
Mr



Registered: 05/01/13
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: cronicr]
#19376825 - 01/06/14 11:10 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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So Im running my sgfc at 99% humidity. I thought the reason for the casing layer was to keep the moisture in. Explain how I wuld fruit from rye seed with no casing layer if u have time.
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Tangich


Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 8,723
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Edmunter]
#19376843 - 01/06/14 11:15 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Either mix it with coir/vermiculite, or case with coir/vermiculite. Rye seed alone will not fruit, or at least won't produce anything more than a few pathetic mushrooms.
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Edmunter
Mr



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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Tangich]
#19376864 - 01/06/14 11:19 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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so use as a substrate in this case and not a casing layer?
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Tangich]
#19376869 - 01/06/14 11:20 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Edmunter said: So Im running my sgfc at 99% humidity. I thought the reason for the casing layer was to keep the moisture in. Explain how I wuld fruit from rye seed with no casing layer if u have time.
i was just talking about the bubble wrap or wax paper but your best bet would be
Quote:
Tangich said: Either mix it with coir/vermiculite, or case with coir/vermiculite. Rye seed alone will not fruit, or at least won't produce anything more than a few pathetic mushrooms.
you can search up the rez effect as well but i would use the coir verm as a bulk sub for sure
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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HypnotoadCroaked
Retired, but will check MSGs

Registered: 01/05/13
Posts: 1,168
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Edmunter]
#19376881 - 01/06/14 11:23 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Edmunter said: so use as a substrate in this case and not a casing layer?
If you are using grain spawn, I would spawn the grain to a 70/30% mix of coir verm, and allow for full colonization. After colonization you have a choice to case or not. Casing the surface area with a mix of verm/coir is certainly a viable option at that point, and depending on your environment may benefit. The dry winter can really screwed with uncased substrates.
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Edmunter
Mr



Registered: 05/01/13
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: cronicr]
#19376890 - 01/06/14 11:24 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Nice one, So Im going to bulk the rye seed up a little and then try the bubble wrap tek. I will report back later.
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Violet



Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Edmunter]
#19376922 - 01/06/14 11:30 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Rye grass seed has lots of potential, but (partially for that very reason I've realized) it won't be much used without something to retain its moisture & provide more, offer an ideal humidity microclimate, and a low-nutrition environment to pin on. A casing layer perfectly hits all 3, which is why even people growing with 'bulk' subs benefit from using casing layers especially in drier conditions. Bulk subs themselves do all 3 also which is why results are much better with bulks than uncased unwatered grains, but they don't do all 3 as well (microclimate) as a casing layer + watering.
Coir works nicely as a casing layer AND a substrate due to its low nutrition, ideal pH, water-holding capability, and fine fluffiness. Peat works as a casing layer WHEN pH-treated, but I still see more contams on them than I'd like... It would also work as a "bulk" substrate I suppose, due to water holding, but definitely wouldn't be as nice and may have more contams. I don't like peat without some garden lime and a hefty share of verm, and I have great distaste for buying verm. I've switched to sifted potting soil for casing layers and it gets the best of all that and is way cheaper too. Give that a shot.
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Edmunter]
#19376927 - 01/06/14 11:32 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Edmunter said: so use as a substrate in this case and not a casing layer?
Yup. Same thing basically except you let it fully colonize and generally you mix it evenly together with the rye instead forming a single layer over it.
Alternatively you can fruit rye in vitro with no casing or bulk substrate but you'll get much lower yields.
Edit: Actually I haven't tried rye seed in vitro, but rye berries works so I'm assume it would too.
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Edited by Kizzle (01/06/14 11:36 AM)
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Edmunter]
#19376941 - 01/06/14 11:35 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Edmunter said: Nice one, So Im going to bulk the rye seed up a little and then try the bubble wrap tek. I will report back later.
don't bother with bubble wrap if your gonna have a casing layer, the casing layer gives you all you need and the bw won't give you any more benifit
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Violet



Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Kizzle]
#19376985 - 01/06/14 11:45 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said: Alternatively you can fruit rye in vitro with no casing or bulk substrate but you'll get much lower yields.
MUCH lower, whether it's invitro or not. Grains need more water than they have on hand to realize all their yield potential.
My straight-grain cakes of grass seed weigh average ~115 grams with ~58 of that being seed, making them ~50% water with ~60 grams of water at the most. Since mushrooms are ~90% water, that means I cannot grow more than 6 dry grams from that container in the first flush. Likely less since some is lost over time and evaporation. I expect like four times or more that much yield from said containers, so they'll need well over four times that much water to do it, hence bottom-watering.
In my recent round of culture tests on 1/3 cup of prepared rice, the 2 cultures that are showing to be my best so far first yielded 10 grams wet each from their cakes due to water limitation... but the following 3 flushes were 16, 17, and 15 grams. HELL YEAH WATERING
Also the fruiting behaviors I almost always get from straight-grains is kindof pathetic, invitro or not. A casing layer (even invitro) makes the magic difference that causes the same substrate to explode with fruits.
   
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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magickspore



Registered: 12/11/12
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: Tangich]
#19377037 - 01/06/14 12:00 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Tangich said:
Quote:
magickspore said:
Quote:
Tangich said: Coco coir is great as a casing material, especially mixed with vermiculite or perlite. Works as a substrate as well, if you have nothing else.
Until someone proves this with consistent grows I think coir is NOT a good casing and IS a good sub.
If you can't find peat moss and you absolutely need a casing look into bubble wrap or wax paper. There are a few alternatives to a peat CASING.
People have been growing with coir casing for years, very successfully, before someone came out and said 'coir is rubbish and peat is the only thing to use', and everybody started parroting it.  Peat is a horrible material IME, but I mainly use it in gardening capacity, when I absolutely have to. And coir is great for that as well. And nothing beats horse manure for P. cubensis as a substrate, it's naturally preferred substrate for thousands of years, with some water retaining material added to make it even better.
My apologies I usually stick to posts newer then 1-2yrs (if possible). As you said I saw it repeated again and again randomly and somehow it got stuck in my head. Since I haven't had to use casings yet (other then a few experiments). It never occurred to me that it was inaccurate.
Thank you for setting my straight.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: magickspore] 1
#19377042 - 01/06/14 12:02 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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it's an old school casing material that seems to have disappeared, don't worry about it your not the only one
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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HypnotoadCroaked
Retired, but will check MSGs

Registered: 01/05/13
Posts: 1,168
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Re: Coco peat coir used as casing? [Re: cronicr]
#19377086 - 01/06/14 12:17 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: it's an old school casing material that seems to have disappeared, don't worry about it your not the only one
If you look over older posts, there are 2 things that pop up:
Roger Rabbit made a few statements that coir casings can lead to overlay....So everyone and their brother started questioning if their substrate had overlay.
but then he has made statements to the effect of wishing he never said overlay, he has only seen it a few times.
Lots of definitions have changed over the last 10 years, and discoveries are being made every day. This is a very dynamic type of hobby. PF cakes were groundbreaking in their time, and in the big scheme of things really only happened a heartbeat ago.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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i played with it alot, the best method i found for it was a sorta "late casing" and by doing so my casing never got fully colonized right through all my flushes
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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