Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Amanita Muscaria Store Amanita Muscaria   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | Next > | Last >
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
InvisibleTimmiTM
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 5,303
Loc: Victoria Flag
Trusted Identifier
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: Stopwhispering]
    #19371274 - 01/05/14 03:16 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:yesnod:


--------------------
"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStopwhispering
The voodoo peoples
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 4,390
Loc: Melbourne Flag
Trusted Identifier
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: TimmiT]
    #19371291 - 01/05/14 03:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Coprine?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTimmiTM
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 5,303
Loc: Victoria Flag
Trusted Identifier
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: Stopwhispering] * 1
    #19371318 - 01/05/14 03:47 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:super:

When we drink alcohol it's metabolised to acetaldehyde by the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase (produced in the liver). Acetaldehyde is responsible for most of the symptoms of hangover. Another enzyme (acetaldehyde dehydrogenase) breaks down acetaldehyde to acetic acid. Coprine (or it's metabolite 1-aminocyclopropanol) inhibits acetaldehyde dehydrogenase, preventing the breakdown of acetaldehyde and consequently intensifies the hangover symptoms after drinking alcohol.


--------------------
"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStopwhispering
The voodoo peoples
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 4,390
Loc: Melbourne Flag
Trusted Identifier
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: TimmiT]
    #19371332 - 01/05/14 03:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Trust I got the alcohol related mushroom chemical. :hehehe:

I will have to do some research before I post one up so if anyone has one ready go nuts.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: Stopwhispering]
    #19371714 - 01/05/14 07:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It's good to see more members in here. :sun: Here's a chemical you all know.



Instead of guessing the chemical (which would be too easy) we're going to find a way to break down the chemical VISUALLY into parts.

The chemical I'm thinking of has a benzene ring (btw, a ring - aka a cyclic compound - is a compound in which a series of atoms is connected to form a loop or ring).

Below: A benzene ring (Because chemists are cruel, this ring has a few different symbols, but the one below is frequently used).



The chemical I'm thinking of also has a bicyclic (bi-cyclic) molecule in it.

Below: A bicyclic molecule (shaped similar to a bicycle's two tires)



The chemical was first extracted in 1958.



To get this one right, you have to help explain what is going on besides the benzene ring and the bicyclic structure - in addition to telling us the name of the chemical.

Here it is again, in a slightly different perspective.



Remember: Bicyclic (Like a bike)



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineraceme
Neither D nor L
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 663
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: The Lightning]
    #19373088 - 01/05/14 01:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Here's a brief tutorial for the uninitiated on how to interpret the chemical structures posted in this thread.

Here are several representations of ethanol, the alcohol which we drink:


The representation on the left is called the Lewis diagram of the molecule.  In this representation, each atom is represented by its atomic symbol (C for carbon, H for hydrogen, O for oxygen, etc.), while each bond is represented by a line between the two bonded atoms (here a bond is a pair of electrons shared by two atoms). 
 

The representation on the bottom right is called a ball-and-stick model.  Here each atom is represented by a color-coded ball (black for carbon, gray for hydrogen, red for oxygen, etc.), while each bond is represented by a stick stretching from one ball to another.

The representation on the top right is called a space-filling model.  Here, each atom is represented as a color-coded sphere, while each bonded is represented by an overlap between between two spheres.  The relative size of the spheres also represents the relative size of the atoms.


Another representation commonly used for organic compounds is the skeletal formula.  Here is the skeletal formula for ethanol:


Skeletal formulas are much sparer than other representations.  In them, bonds are represented by lines, though not all bonds are explicitly shown (the oxygen-to-hydrogen bond that was shown in the Lewis diagram as O–H is instead implied by OH).  Unless otherwise specified by a different atomic symbol, atoms at the ends or intersections of bonds (lines) are assumed to be carbons, which are not explicitly written in (in the diagram above, there are two carbons: one at the very left, and one at the center at the intersection of the two lines (bonds)).  Hydrogens that are bonded to carbons are almost always omitted entirely, and it is assumed that each carbon has enough hydrogens bonded to it to give it a total of 4 bonds.  For example, butane is represented as:

but its Lewis structure, showing the hydrogens and carbons explicitly is:



Hope this helps, and feel free to ask questions!
:cheers:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: raceme]
    #19373443 - 01/05/14 03:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:hatsoff:

Three questions:

1. Does anyone have a good source for finding a chemical's lewis structure (by searching with its skeletal formula, model, or chemical formula)?
2. Without giving away the chemical in this guess, does anyone have the lewis structure of the chemical in question?
3. Do you have a good visual "key" for interpreting every drawing and letter combination on a skeletal formula?

:hatsoff:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWillSolvem
Odd-Hand
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26 Flag
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: The Lightning]
    #19374993 - 01/05/14 09:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:popcorn:


--------------------


AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBayerPhi
Always Learning


Registered: 05/28/12
Posts: 1,884
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: The Lightning]
    #19375387 - 01/06/14 12:16 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Lightning said:
:hatsoff:

Three questions:

1. Does anyone have a good source for finding a chemical's lewis structure (by searching with its skeletal formula, model, or chemical formula)?
2. Without giving away the chemical in this guess, does anyone have the lewis structure of the chemical in question?
3. Do you have a good visual "key" for interpreting every drawing and letter combination on a skeletal formula?

:hatsoff:






From the Chemistry and lesser talked about... pharmacology forum!
I do my good man for #1 my site is: http://www.emolecules.com!


--------------------
Μανθάνων μὴ κάμνε

:alert: Mycology Fundamentals and Misc. Info :mushroom:

:chemistry: Stains, Reagents, and Media :alert:

Tradelist


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: BayerPhi]
    #19376144 - 01/06/14 07:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Welcome!



And Incomplete~!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTheMaster
PATIENCE


Registered: 07/13/13
Posts: 705
Loc: Earth
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: BayerPhi]
    #19376221 - 01/06/14 08:13 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

IUPAC: [3-(2-Dimethylaminoethyl)-1H-indol-4-yl] dihydrogen phosphate
Common name: Psilocybin
Molecular Formula: C12H17N2O4P

The only difference between the two images is the placement of a single hydrogen atom.

This chemical species is as a zwitterion. Taken from the true language of organic chemistry (German), zwitter means "hybrid" or "hermaphrodite".

Having protonation/deprotonation occuring at both the amino (Nitrogen) and phosphate group, we see both acid and base characteristics within the same molecule. Look up phosphoric acid, it is essentially attached here as a phosphate. While the dimethylaminoethyl group acts as a weak base, which is typical for amines.

Phosphoric acid


Phosphate ion


The two groups are basically playing volleyball with the hydrogen. My advanced organic chem professor used to say that when there is a question surrounding a chemical the answer is typically "RESONANCE".

Note: This is not the same as an amphoteric compound, which behaves either acidic or basic depending on surrounding conditions. This is why baking soda can nuetralize acids or bases.


--------------------
"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi


Edited by TheMaster (01/06/14 10:24 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: TheMaster]
    #19376247 - 01/06/14 08:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

IUPAC: [3-(2-Dimethylaminoethyl)-1H-indol-4-yl] dihydrogen phosphate
Common name: Psilocybin
Molecular Formula: C12H17N2O4P

The only difference between the two images is the placement of a single hydrogen atom.

This chemical species is as a zwitterion. Taken from the true language of organic chemistry (German), zwitter means "hybrid" or "hermaphrodite".

Having protonation/deprotonation occuring at both the amino and phosphate group, we see both acid and base characteristics within the same molecule. Look up phosphoric acid, it is essentially attached here as a phosphate. While the dimethylaminoethyl group acts as a weak base, which is typical for amines.

The two groups are basically playing volleyball with the hydrogen. My advanced organic chem professor used to say that when there is a question surrounding a chemical the answer is typically "RESONANCE".

Note: This is not the same as an amphoteric compound, which behaves either acidic or basic depending on surrounding conditions. This is why baking soda can nuetralize acids or bases.




Can you go over some of this visually please for everyone's sake?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTheMaster
PATIENCE


Registered: 07/13/13
Posts: 705
Loc: Earth
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: TheMaster]
    #19376278 - 01/06/14 08:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)




Hint: This compound is a neurotoxin, but when it is broken down in our bodies via decarboxylation it becomes a sedative/inebriant.


--------------------
"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesuchen
Once and Future Noob
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/28/11
Posts: 8,841
Loc: Shangri-la
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Trusted Identifier
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: TheMaster]
    #19376305 - 01/06/14 08:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Gotta be ibotenic acid!  5-(aminomethyl)-isoxazol-3-ol which gets broken down into muscimol, the psychoactive agent in the pantherine Amanita species.


--------------------
Rod Tulloss said:

The bulb is the bulb.

The volva is the volva.

They have a very long term realtionship, but they’re “just friends.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTheMaster
PATIENCE


Registered: 07/13/13
Posts: 705
Loc: Earth
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: TheMaster]
    #19376337 - 01/06/14 08:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)



Depending on the compound, the equilibrium will lean one way or the other. The lowest energy state should be the zwitterion configuration at the right, and therfore the predominant form taken.


--------------------
"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTheMaster
PATIENCE


Registered: 07/13/13
Posts: 705
Loc: Earth
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: suchen]
    #19376344 - 01/06/14 08:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

suchen said:
Gotta be ibotenic acid!  5-(aminomethyl)-isoxazol-3-ol which gets broken down into muscimol, the psychoactive agent in the pantherine Amanita species.




:asianofapproval:


--------------------
"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: TheMaster]
    #19376406 - 01/06/14 08:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Before we skip over this, without answering the questions, please allow me to re-address everyone.

Originally, this was posted:

Quote:

The Lightning said:
It's good to see more members in here. :sun: Here's a chemical you all know.



Instead of guessing the chemical (which would be too easy) we're going to find a way to break down the chemical VISUALLY into parts.

The chemical I'm thinking of has a benzene ring (btw, a ring - aka a cyclic compound - is a compound in which a series of atoms is connected to form a loop or ring).

Below: A benzene ring (Because chemists are cruel, this ring has a few different symbols, but the one below is frequently used).



The chemical I'm thinking of also has a bicyclic (bi-cyclic) molecule in it.

Below: A bicyclic molecule (shaped similar to a bicycle's two tires)



The chemical was first extracted in 1958.



To get this one right, you have to help explain what is going on besides the benzene ring and the bicyclic structure - in addition to telling us the name of the chemical.

Here it is again, in a slightly different perspective.



Remember: Bicyclic (Like a bike)






Explain, in simple (fundamental) language, what is occurring in each aspect of this molecular structure. What carbons are where? What do the lines mean? The double lines? Why isn't the carbon labelled? Etc.

Please teach one another visually as often as humanly possible. It will make the thread WAY cooler and will instruct more people.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBayerPhi
Always Learning


Registered: 05/28/12
Posts: 1,884
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: The Lightning]
    #19376565 - 01/06/14 09:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The parent ring of psilocybin is an indole.
A theory is that is it biosynthesis as a hormone to the fungi through L-Tryptophan. However, L-Tryptophan isn't floating around, so we must biosynthesize that to begin.
Beginning from Chorismate anthranilate synthase will give us Anthranilic Acid.

Now to save myself the biochemistry.


From Indole, our Bicyclic building block - which is simply a benzene attached to a pyrrole, L-Serine will give us the corresponding L-Tryptophan.

Now the biosynthesis everyone should know: Decarboxylation of the Serine - Methylation of the Amine - Oxidation of the 4th Carbon - Lastly, Phosphorylation.



- I didn't understand the question. Was I in the ball park?


--------------------
Μανθάνων μὴ κάμνε

:alert: Mycology Fundamentals and Misc. Info :mushroom:

:chemistry: Stains, Reagents, and Media :alert:

Tradelist


Edited by BayerPhi (01/06/14 09:53 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTheMaster
PATIENCE


Registered: 07/13/13
Posts: 705
Loc: Earth
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: The Lightning]
    #19376606 - 01/06/14 10:05 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You asked to explain what was going on with this molecule besides the benzene ring and bicyclic structure in addition to the name. I did. The only part I left out is the indole skeleton structure that you skimmed over.

You did not ask for a primer in organic chem nomenclature/skeletal diagrams. If you had I would have provided a reference like the one below and a few rules. It would take a bit more to properly explain what is going on to the uninitiated, and for me it takes the fun out of it.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_formula

Inherent rules are carbon "wanting" to have 4 bonds etc.
Each bond is represented by one line
Two lines represent a double bond (pi)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromaticity

Structures with resonance are known as aromatics.

The resonance structure in the bicyclic indole ring is due to the double bonds of the carbon. The most stable cyclic structure  for carbon atoms is a 6 member ring. Seven may be God's number, but six is Mother Nature's. As a result of this, the pyrrole ring is stabilized as the backbone of the structure along with the benzene ring with which it shares a double bond.



As you can see in the above image of an indole ring, there are dashed lines on the inside of the ring structures. This represents how the pi bonding electrons are delocalized (or resonating) amongst the other atoms. Double bonds leading to resonance can also be drawn as a solid circle inside of a ring structure.

Honestly I mean no offense, but I hope you see where I am coming from. I did not see this thread becoming an organic chemistry lesson (not in the mushroom ID forum at least), but it is.

Your thread though, so ask what you want of people. I think it is a bit too much.


--------------------
"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineraceme
Neither D nor L
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 663
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: TheMaster]
    #19391232 - 01/08/14 11:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:wizard:

New chemical:


Please give the name of the chemical, what mushrooms it is found in, and how it interacts with the human body.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | Next > | Last >

Shop: Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Amanita Muscaria Store Amanita Muscaria   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Help Id this mushroom 2blue 1,121 6 05/15/03 12:27 PM
by thomas
* Re: Guess What I found on a Lawn Today?
( 1 2 all )
Lizard King 3,770 37 05/02/01 09:47 AM
by Levi7
* Magic Mushrooms in Mississippi: Part Two mjshroomer 26,163 5 01/28/12 01:16 AM
by koraks
* A couple nice mushroom pix
( 1 2 all )
angryshroom 6,399 20 03/05/03 07:05 PM
by angryshroom
* Problem plants give way to magic mushrooms SalviaEngland 5,529 13 12/23/02 10:15 PM
by Anonymous
* unidentified mushroom DERRAYLD 1,700 7 08/01/02 09:29 PM
by zeronio
* Too many pics of Aussie fauna & fungi
( 1 2 all )
oO_wombat_Oo 4,131 29 04/23/03 09:02 AM
by Anonymous
* Pictures of Poisonous Mushrooms
( 1 2 3 all )
Anonymous 18,957 43 03/11/03 07:26 AM
by Anonymous

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: ToxicMan, inski, Alan Rockefeller, Duggstar, TimmiT, Anglerfish, Tmethyl, Lucis, Doc9151, Land Trout
59,424 topic views. 1 members, 10 guests and 6 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.026 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 14 queries.