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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19373118 - 01/05/14 01:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

psi said:
I would think the "vocabulary" of mathematics is far smaller than that of a language like English.



These individuals who think that mathematics are a complicated languages are simply unfamiliar with formal syntax theories of natural language. Natural language is so much more complicated than any math that a comparison between the two is almost laughable.




ORLY? What do you know of topology?  What is your idea of complicated?  Not following the rules?

You are ignorant of the language of higher math.



http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/damian.giaouris/pdf/various/Topology_for_dummies.pdf


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19373125 - 01/05/14 01:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

psi said:
I would think the "vocabulary" of mathematics is far smaller than that of a language like English.




I believe you are mistaken, I believe English has the greatest vocabulary of all languages and size of vocabulary is not necessarily a measure of complexity.  The rules are also important for that and English is known for not adhering to rules.




If English does not appear to adhere to many rules (or in other words the rules that exist have many exceptions,) would that not speak to even greater complexity than a system like mathematics designed to have very predictable rules?


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: psi]
    #19373145 - 01/05/14 01:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

psi said:
I would think the "vocabulary" of mathematics is far smaller than that of a language like English.




I believe you are mistaken, I believe English has the greatest vocabulary of all languages and size of vocabulary is not necessarily a measure of complexity.  The rules are also important for that and English is known for not adhering to rules.




If English does not appear to adhere to many rules (or in other words the rules that exist have many exceptions,) would that not speak to even greater complexity than a system like mathematics designed to have very predictable rules?




I wouldn't say so.  I would say that it to speaks to just winging it.  The rules are actually pretty simple.  Most elementary school children learn them.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #19373148 - 01/05/14 01:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

psi said:
I would think the "vocabulary" of mathematics is far smaller than that of a language like English.



These individuals who think that mathematics are a complicated languages are simply unfamiliar with formal syntax theories of natural language. Natural language is so much more complicated than any math that a comparison between the two is almost laughable.




ORLY? What do you know of topology?  What is your idea of complicated?  Not following the rules?

You are ignorant of the language of higher math.



Nowhere near as complicated. All maths have defined rules and are therefore less complicated than natural language which does not have defined rules. Chomsky keeps trying to think that there are neurologically defined rules for language and that is why he comes up with ridiculous shit like this



But the theories will just get more and more complex and there will always be counterexamples. It doesn't matter how complicated your math is, if it's based on definitions (which all maths I know of are), then it's not as complicated as natural language.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #19373156 - 01/05/14 01:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

psi said:
I would think the "vocabulary" of mathematics is far smaller than that of a language like English.




I believe you are mistaken, I believe English has the greatest vocabulary of all languages and size of vocabulary is not necessarily a measure of complexity.  The rules are also important for that and English is known for not adhering to rules.




If English does not appear to adhere to many rules (or in other words the rules that exist have many exceptions,) would that not speak to even greater complexity than a system like mathematics designed to have very predictable rules?




I wouldn't say so.  I would say that it to speaks to just winging it.  The rules are actually pretty simple.  Most elementary school children learn them.



The prescriptive grammar rules. Those are just rules that help people learn how to use a language. Those aren't the fundamental language operators.


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InvisibleRiderOnTheStorm
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19373170 - 01/05/14 02:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
I always feel so embarrassed and ashamed to admit that I live in one of the only first-world countries where so many people believe still in creationism. It makes our nation a laughingstock, that the religious right has such strong power over our nation's beliefs.




Agreed.

Quote:

morrowasted said:
I only accept propositions as true on as-needed basis for the purposes of drawing conclusions during argumentation. I do not have an epistemic structure of "true beliefs" which is constantly with me, ready to be hurled like ninjastars anytime one of my fellowmen threatens one them. I have been so sufficiently humbled by learning and experienced that I am willing to believe that just about anything is possible, and it doesn't seem necessary to accept that anything is true for longer than a few moments. I have not found that I am any less happy for having changed myself in this way. What I have found is that I am only "in agreement" with my fellows when I choose to be, because I really have no beliefs of my own. My arguments are generally too complex to be spoken without being prepared in advanced, so I often remain silent unless someone elicits my opinion on something, at which point I tend to simply tell them all the various perspectives with which I am familiar. It doesn't make for a sense of camaradarie, but I will say one thing: everyone I meet (in real life) seems to respect me. My students seem to try harder to do well than the students of other teachers; I encounter fewer of the problems I hear other TAs complaining about. Why? I would guess that it is because my students would feel bad about goofing off in my class, because they can feel that I genuinely care a lot. Maybe I am just insane. There are some who would probably call me that. In certain work environments I would probably have much more difficulty functioning without adapting my personality to be more like that of others.




What an eloquent way to dodge my question, you might do well in politics if you do decide to change work environments. After reading your description of how humble and likeable you are for your lack of positions or beliefs, I am convinced that my earlier suspicion was correct, you stay on the fence to appear taller than those of us with our feet on the ground. Good luck with that.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19373181 - 01/05/14 02:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Not having rules is complexity?  Most native speaking elementary school children can learn the English language quite well and speak it correctly almost 100% of the time.  They couldn't get near higher math.  The English language has 26 symbols.  Mathematics has far more

I really don't think you have any business at all opining on the complexity of mathematical language since you are clearly utterly ignorant of anything beyond plus, minus, times and gazzinta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mathematical_symbols


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InvisibleConfucian
...
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Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 1,741
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19373187 - 01/05/14 02:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
I only accept propositions as true on as-needed basis for the purposes of drawing conclusions during argumentation. I do not have an epistemic structure of "true beliefs" which is constantly with me, ready to be hurled like ninjastars anytime one of my fellowmen threatens one them. I have been so sufficiently humbled by learning and experienced that I am willing to believe that just about anything is possible, and it doesn't seem necessary to accept that anything is true for longer than a few moments. I have not found that I am any less happy for having changed myself in this way. What I have found is that I am only "in agreement" with my fellows when I choose to be, because I really have no beliefs of my own. My arguments are generally too complex to be spoken without being prepared in advanced, so I often remain silent unless someone elicits my opinion on something, at which point I tend to simply tell them all the various perspectives with which I am familiar. It doesn't make for a sense of camaradarie, but I will say one thing: everyone I meet (in real life) seems to respect me. My students seem to try harder to do well than the students of other teachers; I encounter fewer of the problems I hear other TAs complaining about. Why? I would guess that it is because my students would feel bad about goofing off in my class, because they can feel that I genuinely care a lot. Maybe I am just insane. There are some who would probably call me that. In certain work environments I would probably have much more difficulty functioning without adapting my personality to be more like that of others.




TL;


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19373188 - 01/05/14 02:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not having rules is complexity?  Most native speaking elementary school children can learn the English language quite well and speak it correctly almost 100% of the time.  They couldn't get near higher math.  The English language has 26 symbols.  Mathematics has far more

I really don't think you have any business at all opining on the complexity of mathematical language since you are clearly utterly ignorant of anything beyond plus, minus, times and gazzinta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mathematical_symbols



You clearly don't understand what complexity is. Look, just take some classes on linguistics and logic (Math is quantified logic). . You are obviously not going to take me as an authority on this.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19373191 - 01/05/14 02:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


What an eloquent way to dodge my question, you might do well in politics if you do decide to change work environments. After reading your description of how humble and likeable you are for your lack of positions or beliefs, I am convinced that my earlier suspicion was correct, you stay on the fence to appear taller than those of us with our feet on the ground. Good luck with that.




I was not dodging your question. You can easily infer from what I said that I am unsure about questions having to do with the origin of man.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19373205 - 01/05/14 02:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It is apparent that none of you who ought to be listening to me think I am worth listening to; I am not going to waste my time. Just go to an institution of higher education and get educated. Read some books and educate yourself. Stop thinking you know so much. And don't for one second think that because I am telling you these things, I think that I know anything. I am just telling you what I have learned after devoting my life to learning. All of it could be wrong, but it is what I have been told by other people who have devoted their lives to learning as well.


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InvisibleConfucian
...
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19373212 - 01/05/14 02:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
It is apparent that none of you who ought to be listening to me think I am worth listening to; I am not going to waste my time. Just go to an institution of higher education and get educated. Read some books and educate yourself. Stop thinking you know so much. And don't for one second think that because I am telling you these things, I think that I know anything. I am just telling you what I have learned after devoting my life to learning. All of it could be wrong, but it is what I have been told by other people who have devoted their lives to learning as well.




Have you read any of Steven Pinker's books?


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #19373220 - 01/05/14 02:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Ya, evolution seems fishy to me.
Some how only one species has evolved to the skill level that humans have.....  and that species is the humans.
HMMMMMM.



:facepalm:

Only one species has evolved to our "skill level?"  In what areas? There are plenty of animals that are faster than us, stronger than us, have better hearing, eyesight, and olfaction. The only realms in which we're unsurpassed are abstract thinking and tool-building- one of which might end up leading to the planet's destruction one day, which would be far from advantageous for the proliferation of the species.

There are no "levels" in evolution. It's not a staircase or ladder leading "up" to the "best" possible organism. What we call intelligence is not some divine trait all species strive towards and few achieve. It's just one among many evolutionary "strategies" and not objectively better than, say , a beetle's exoskeleton.

Before deciding that the bedrock of all modern biology seems "fishy" you should try to understand it better .


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19373221 - 01/05/14 02:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:


I believe you are mistaken, I believe English has the greatest vocabulary of all languages and size of vocabulary is not necessarily a measure of complexity.  The rules are also important for that and English is known for not adhering to rules.




If English does not appear to adhere to many rules (or in other words the rules that exist have many exceptions,) would that not speak to even greater complexity than a system like mathematics designed to have very predictable rules?




I wouldn't say so.  I would say that it to speaks to just winging it.  The rules are actually pretty simple.  Most elementary school children learn them.



The prescriptive grammar rules. Those are just rules that help people learn how to use a language. Those aren't the fundamental language operators.



Oh your one of those.  The prescriptive grammar rules are those that allow people who aren't in the exact same community to share a language.  In isolation they would all gradually evolve into a nonsense to anybody else creole.  I fail to see that the descriptive use is any more complex.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: NetDiver]
    #19373224 - 01/05/14 02:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Ya, evolution seems fishy to me.
Some how only one species has evolved to the skill level that humans have.....  and that species is the humans.
HMMMMMM.



:facepalm:

Only one species has evolved to our "skill level?"  In what areas? There are plenty of animals that are faster than us, stronger than us, have better hearing, eyesight, and olfaction. The only realms in which we're unsurpassed are abstract thinking and tool-building- one of which might end up leading to the planet's destruction one day, which would be far from advantageous for the proliferation of the species.

There are no "levels" in evolution. It's not a staircase or ladder leading "up" to the "best" possible organism. What we call intelligence is not some divine trait all species strive towards and few achieve. It's just one among many evolutionary "strategies" and not objectively better than, say , a beetle's exoskeleton.

Before deciding that the bedrock of all modern biology seems "fishy" you should try to understand it better .




Also language

Humans are no more evolved than ants but we are better at quite a few things than any other species.


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19373254 - 01/05/14 02:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Come to think of it, all of you atheists should just take a damn logic class.

It never hurt any one to take a logic class.


While you're at it, read a whole bunch of fucking books. Non-fiction books. Academic level non-fiction books, none of that pop science garbage that Dawkins has been churning out for the last 15 years. Hell, if you're an atheist and you want to read a decent book by an atheist, read Anthony Flew. The sad thing is that even though I'm not an atheist I'm probably more familiar with atheist arguments than 95% of the atheists I meet. Most of them are atheists because they're mad at mommy and daddy or even God himself (which makes absolutely no sense at all, but I run into it all the time).

And yeah, I am kind of pissy. I recently quit doing drugs and so I'm not high and giggly all the time. I'm actually really content, and I have a lot of time to get work done now. One of the things that is happening is that I'm realizing how much time I wasted being a lazy fuckoff when I was doing drugs all the time. Now, I'm not in a position to judge, but I've seen the CA thread. I'm just going to leave it at that. Don't be surprised if my presence on this forum gradually (or even abruptly) diminishes in the near future. I'm sure I won't be missed; whatever.





Well I am not an atheist so if you are directing that toward em at all the comment is irrelevant. I have read plenty of academic level non-fiction books and I still think you come across as a holier-than-thou know it all who thinks he is better than others. Of course that is just my impression, which is subjective, and I could be way off base. Regardless, science CAN prove things as truth whether or not you would like to accept that. And of course our communication of science is limited by language, but the actual study and experimentation of science includes many other factors other than language.

And it is really a lazy ass cop out to blame your pissyness on drug use or the lack thereof. I use drugs, strictly psychedelics and cannabis, and I still find all of the time I need to get things done and not be a lazy fuck. That is just not my personality. And I do not get pissy just because I go without drugs for a while. You say you are not in a position to judge, yet you do anyway


--------------------
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I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19373348 - 01/05/14 02:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
No, the reason I believe that science is language based is because scientific theories are formulated in language :facepalm:



Language is not the foundation, the foundation is in the experiment and observation.



Interesting. In my class, step 1 was stating the problem. Step 2 was formulating the hypothesis. Experiment and observation came later.




Yeah no shit sherlock. That is because experimentation and observation is what PROVE the hypothesis. Physically experimenting and observing the results of those experiments are not based in language. And experimentation and observation are a lot more important the unproven hypothesis.

You sure dodge a lot of questions, you pick and choos what you want to answer, ignoring posts that you cannot find a good argument for



Quote:

I have been so sufficiently humbled



:laugh2:


--------------------
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I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19375287 - 01/05/14 11:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Oh your one of those.  The prescriptive grammar rules are those that allow people who aren't in the exact same community to share a language.  In isolation they would all gradually evolve into a nonsense to anybody else creole.  I fail to see that the descriptive use is any more complex.




Apparently apes are capable of processing language at rudimentary levels, they simply do not have the throat development to produce the guttural sounds required to formulate words in speech. However, chimps and gorillas have been successful at sign language. Look up koko the signing gorilla. She creates complete sentences and has back and forth conversations with her professor, Penny. She can also convey emotions and memories, such as signing how sad she felt when her pet kitten died.


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OfflineNotTheDevil
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19375293 - 01/05/14 11:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not having rules is complexity?  Most native speaking elementary school children can learn the English language quite well and speak it correctly almost 100% of the time.  They couldn't get near higher math.  The English language has 26 symbols.  Mathematics has far more

I really don't think you have any business at all opining on the complexity of mathematical language since you are clearly utterly ignorant of anything beyond plus, minus, times and gazzinta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mathematical_symbols



Our brains are designed for language, this does not make language less complex. In fact like most things language can be described mathematically and is more complex than most, but not all math.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19375307 - 01/05/14 11:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not having rules is complexity?  Most native speaking elementary school children can learn the English language quite well and speak it correctly almost 100% of the time.  They couldn't get near higher math.  The English language has 26 symbols.  Mathematics has far more

I really don't think you have any business at all opining on the complexity of mathematical language since you are clearly utterly ignorant of anything beyond plus, minus, times and gazzinta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mathematical_symbols




I think morrow is talking about a higher level of english. Basic english yes, its not that hard
But have you ever picked up a book written by hegel? Even many college graduates cannot understand that level of written language. I've read lots of political philosophy, and even I found hegel supremely difficult to read. Only graduate students who have been trained can read something on that level. But the same does apply to advanced calculus as well.


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