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OfflineRandomFX
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growing button or Agaricus bisporus
    #19372424 - 01/05/14 11:25 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

seems to be a lot of conflicting material out there about growing these, and I am not sure why. when I was younger, they grew them by my house in huge hangers, so they cannot possibly be that difficult to grow, but I ran into these instructions, and wondered if these were sound? I am to understand the casing should have a certain bacteria or something also, and yet I haven't seen anyone say what that bacteria was, or where to get it, or? anyways are these instructions sound? They sound like it to me, but I have no clue.
I am wondering if those who grow these things do not want to keep the process a bit secret since they keep reproducing for 3-6 months, and are clearly what is sold in stores by far the most?


1) Choose a growing tray that is approximately 2 by 3 feet and at least 6 to 8 inches deep. Construct a simple tray from scrap wood if you do not have a suitable container. The exact size doesn't matter, but a 2-by-3 foot box works well and is easy to handle when not in use.

2)Fill the growing tray with well-rotted compost and water thoroughly. The compost should form a ball when squeezed in the fist, but should crumble easily when touched. The key is even moisture, not a soggy soil.

3)Mix 1 to 2 cups of dry spawn flakes into the compost. Loosen the mixture and heap it into loose piles right in the tray. Allow it set overnight. Press the compost and spawn mixture into the growing tray with a piece of wood or other flat object.

4)Maintain a temperature between 65 and 70 degrees F and mist twice daily with tepid water. Do not pour water onto the mixture as this will disrupt the growing process. Use a spray bottle to apply an even coat of water. Continue the process for 2 to 3 weeks until you see a white webbing begin to grow on the surface of the soil.

5)Apply a 1½-inch layer of moist peat moss over the white webbing. Be sure the peat moss is adequately moistened to promote mushroom growth. Cover the damp peat moss with several layers of newspapers and spray them down twice daily to keep the newspapers evenly moist. Allow to grow undisturbed for 10 days at 55 degrees F.

6)Remove the newspaper and continue to mist twice daily. Tiny white pinheads will emerge in a few days. Allow them to grow until they reach the size you desire. Picking mushrooms while they are young will provide a firm mushroom just right for snacking, but allowing them to grow to maturity when the gills will open will produce a more robust flavor.

7)Harvest mushrooms at the stage you prefer. New mushrooms will sprout every 10 to 14 days for anywhere from 3 to 6 months. To grow more mushrooms, simply repeat the process for starting mushrooms.


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: RandomFX]
    #19372584 - 01/05/14 12:02 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Well....in theory that will work just fine but they are leaving out the part about pasturizing the substrate;  the most important part.


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Offlinecmspice
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #19373075 - 01/05/14 01:41 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

I'm curious about A. bisporus too, clearly the most mass produced mushroom and yet so hard to find any home growing info on (I mean, I guess there's no reason to grow these).

Mmm, so I'm actually curious about what the contamination rate of pasteurized compost is. It says only to mix in a cup or two of spawn flakes which does not seem like a lot.


--------------------
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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: cmspice]
    #19373621 - 01/05/14 04:02 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Commercial operations don't pasteurize the compost because it is freshly composted (and already pretty pasteurized from the process).

The casing doesn't need a specific bacteria, it just needs a diverse microfauna, which any bag of peat Moss will already contain.

The reason there's not many people growing them is that they're very available and cheap.


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: liamtheloser]
    #19373992 - 01/05/14 05:33 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

liamtheloser said:
Commercial operations don't pasteurize the compost because it is freshly composted (and already pretty pasteurized from the process).

The casing doesn't need a specific bacteria, it just needs a diverse microfauna, which any bag of peat Moss will already contain.

The reason there's not many people growing them is that they're very available and cheap.



And slightly carcinogenic from the hydrazines.


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OfflineRandomFX
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: liamtheloser]
    #19374003 - 01/05/14 05:35 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

so it isn't anything super mysterious about growing them, and they produce in abundance, so they are just beneath those in the know really? guess it makes sense to grow a $25/lb rarity than a $1.50/lb common to those who have done 1,000+ grows already...me I'm at my 2nd so it's all new,exciting,expensive, and I am still non knowledgeable...but learning something new everyday from this place.

I heard the carcinogens are a myth, either that or if you cook it, they go out or something.


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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: RandomFX]
    #19374442 - 01/05/14 07:26 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

They cook out.

A. bisporus is a delicious mushroom that I enjoy often. But one other point is that it has a much better shelf life than oysters. Oysters aren't hard to get where I live, but they're fragile and hard to get pristine and perfectly fresh, so I get a big quality increase by growing my own. With button mushrooms I think this would make less difference. Though I do plan to grow my own eventually so I can know for sure whether I've been missing out.


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: thiotimoline]
    #19374671 - 01/05/14 08:24 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

thiotimoline said:
They cook out.




Not correct.

"The kicker with Agaricus species, including the buttons, is that one of their primary hydrazine components, along with gyromitrin, is “agaritine,” a substance somewhat resistant to cooking heat, with a significant percentage (25–75%) of agaratine material typically remaining after being subjected to various methods of cooking. So, the question as far as avoiding hydrazines in Agaricus is concerned, actually becomes whether to eat members of this genus at all."


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OfflineJeff
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #19374681 - 01/05/14 08:27 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Damn...they are so tasty though. 
Good info AV.  I had no idea.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #19374728 - 01/05/14 08:43 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
Quote:

thiotimoline said:
They cook out.




Not correct.

"The kicker with Agaricus species, including the buttons, is that one of their primary hydrazine components, along with gyromitrin, is “agaritine,” a substance somewhat resistant to cooking heat, with a significant percentage (25–75%) of agaratine material typically remaining after being subjected to various methods of cooking. So, the question as far as avoiding hydrazines in Agaricus is concerned, actually becomes whether to eat members of this genus at all."




What is your source on this? 

Not disagreeing necessarily, just pointing out that there are other sources that dispute this.  (though probably less credible, that's why I'm interested in what your source is) 

Not trying to be argumentative, just always like to sort out these disputed bits of info :smile:

The Fungal Pharmacy, by Robert Rogers lists buttons as being quite medicinal, there have been more than a few studies.  But there does seem to be a lot of conflicting information regarding the toxicity of agaritine.


Edited by Forrester (01/05/14 08:54 PM)


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: Forrester]
    #19374761 - 01/05/14 08:56 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

David Campbell and David Arora among others.  Studies show that agaratine is quite heat stable but realistically it's not going to increase your cancer risk MUCH if you eat cooked agarics.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #19374801 - 01/05/14 09:09 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
David Campbell and David Arora among others.  Studies show that agaratine is quite heat stable but realistically it's not going to increase your cancer risk MUCH if you eat cooked agarics.




I'll agree with that, a "low level" carcinogen is what I what I understood it to be.  Pretty easy to find all sorts of conflicting information when it comes to mushrooms...

Never knew buttons had medicinal qualities till I read the Fungal Pharmacy though.  Interesting!


--------------------
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Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: Jeff]
    #19374820 - 01/05/14 09:14 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Jeff said:
Damn...they are so tasty though. 
Good info AV.  I had no idea.




I can't stop eating them. So good. :homerdrool:


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OfflineRandomFX
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: Ganzig]
    #19374923 - 01/05/14 09:33 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

hmm.

http://www.superfoodsrx.com/nutrition/ask-the-doctor/ask-thee-doctor-mushrooms-56.html

"There are concerns that commonly available mushrooms like white button mushrooms, portabello mushrooms, shitakes, and creminis (actually baby portabella) contain very small amounts of a compound called agaritine. Agaritine may be carcinogenic in extremely high doses. Cooking removes the agaritine, so as a rule, try to eat mushrooms cooked. Interestingly, compounds in mushrooms are actually being studied for their natural anti-cancer effects." - Geoffrey Harris, MD

1) can be in high doses.
2) claims it is cooked out. now it may not be effected by heat, but that wouldn't mean the heat wouldn't react on other substances that react or for instance moisture which would carry it away, does it? I mean a heck of a lot of people out there eat them in the world, thats for sure 11,756 tons/year just in the US. it is what they use on every pizza pretty much with mushroom, or in every spaghetti sauce with mushroom. 315 million people just in the us, and only 1 million people worldwide get cancer/year.


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: RandomFX]
    #19375358 - 01/06/14 12:01 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

I'm so unconcerned about the agaritine levels of agaricus bisporus that I'm aware they contain it, but still eat about 5 lbs of them every month.

I think the benefits of having them in your diet far outweighs the possible slight amount of a single low level carcinogen.

But I understand that a lot of people have carcinogen paranoia, cancer is a scary thing! But I'm willing to bet you inhale more carcinogens walking down the highway than you would eating a bucket of button mushrooms.


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: liamtheloser]
    #19375986 - 01/06/14 06:36 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Yea yea yea. Sorry to start a flurry of discussion about a topic that has been beaten into the ground over and over. EVERYTHING is carcinogenic. Air water food. So don't get all paranoid.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #19376190 - 01/06/14 08:01 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
EVERYTHING is carcinogenic. Air water food. So don't get all paranoid.




:thumbup:


--------------------
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-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: Forrester]
    #19376483 - 01/06/14 09:19 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
EVERYTHING is carcinogenic. Air water food. So don't get all paranoid.




:thumbup:




move to the country where the air is cleaner

right?

hope there's no atrazine in your well water :cookiemonster:


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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #19378827 - 01/06/14 07:10 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
Yea yea yea. Sorry to start a flurry of discussion about a topic that has been beaten into the ground over and over. EVERYTHING is carcinogenic. Air water food. So don't get all paranoid.





Won't stop me from eating them.  :smile:  I am sure the Copenhagen will me get first.


--------------------
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Edited by Jeff (01/06/14 08:39 PM)


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Offlinechefinainteasy
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: Jeff]
    #19379169 - 01/06/14 08:13 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)



I grew "a" Portobello when I first started. It was a tissue clone from a mushroom at work. I have a post out there about it, but if I remember right it took about three months with about 10# of substrate and only got one. It is possible, but for me not worth the effort except for experience.


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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: chefinainteasy]
    #19380020 - 01/06/14 10:57 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

They grow boxes of them standing right next to each other by the dozens. and they do it in like hangers and warehouses....if they can do it in a professional outfit, call me weird, but I do not think of them as super men with powers, they just know what the secret is evidently and I do not. They did it before people used .1-.3 micron flow hoods also, I am willing to bet, so it surely 'can' be done.... it's like a big huge secret I am unable to get in on yet.....but I will....oh yes...I will.


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: RandomFX]
    #19381553 - 01/07/14 09:44 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

The biggest "secret" is knowing how to produce the substrate by active composting.  It needs to heat up good to kill mold spores and bacteria.  That's where you need to start.  Experiment with compost recipes using straw and manure to produce your own suitable substrate for growing agaricus.  Honestly though, there are other agaricus species that are far more valuable and tasty, including The Prince (A. angustifolia)
and The King (A. blazei)
Figure either one of these out and you can make lots of money (if that is your goal)


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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #19381893 - 01/07/14 11:13 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

My goal right now is just to have them to eat in abundance, while learning. Then it will probably turn into selling enough to pay for cost and at least make it self sufficient. Then it will probably turn into selling enough to cover the times when something goes wrong and to cover the long term expenses....then maybe to make a profit. maybe.


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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #19381969 - 01/07/14 11:31 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Could pasteurized spent substrate (such as straw that oyster mushrooms have grown on) work as compost for this purpose? Could worm compost work? Or does it really truly have to be standard bacterial compost that achieves ~pasteurizing temperatures under its own power?

In a sense I don't need an answer because I'm going to try those things anyway. I will be absurdly smug if I even get a single Prince to grow. But I'd like to hear more about others' results.


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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: RandomFX]
    #19381984 - 01/07/14 11:34 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

My suggestion would be to emulate the big growers and use fresh chicken shit and fresh straw and compost them together. Use trays and a high spawn rate.  I suggest visiting mushroom farms in your area and learning from them.


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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: liamtheloser]
    #19381995 - 01/07/14 11:37 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Unfortunately I live in the middle of a city. While I am lucky to have a yard (shared with another apartment, but they seem OK with my mushrooms so far), anything with a strong smell is not an option for me.


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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: thiotimoline]
    #19382094 - 01/07/14 12:00 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Ahhhhh,
Well that is a bummer. I suppose you could try mixing chicken manure compost (available at home depot) with straw and composting that, it won't smell that bad.


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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: liamtheloser]
    #19382567 - 01/07/14 01:49 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Yeah that bagged poo does not smell. Well, it has a smell but it is not poo.

More like garden compost.


--------------------
I must keep reminding myself of this.
I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this.
I must keep reminding myself of this.


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Offlinecmspice
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Re: growing button or Agaricus bisporus [Re: Ganzig]
    #19396497 - 01/09/14 11:20 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Are there any good sources on people growing non bisporus agaricus's?


--------------------
have: blue, brown, pink, yellow, elm, king oyster, reishi, nameko, black poplar, shaggy mane, PESA

want: ABM, ganoderma spp., straw mushroom, exotic pleurotus species, ethno cuttings/seeds.


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