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OfflinePhred
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19354136 - 01/01/14 09:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

When 97% of the experts agree, it's probative.



But 97% of "the experts" don't agree. That number is completely fraudulent.


Phred


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19354418 - 01/01/14 11:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I understand where you are coming from in a lawyer's perspective however, hard science is only accepted when data is gathered and applied using the scientific method. 

That is, if a premise is made i.e. I believe the one that is made is 'C02 levels produced by man are causing the temperature to increase because 'C02 traps heat in the atmosphere' (paraphrased because I don't know the exact argument) then 1) it must be proven by data and experiements that support the idea 2) all other variables and alternative hypothesis that could account for the phenomena have to be disproven as the cause. 

For example, alternative hypothesis to 'man made global warming' are 1) sunspot activity generates such huge amounts of energy that it affects tides, ocean currents, and water temperatures, and hence causes drastic changes in surface temperature around the earth.

Indeed sunspot activity provides far more impetus for climate change because the level of energy produced in sunspot activity is several magnitudes larger than any man made energy sources.

2) Increasing temperature reduces the solubility of C02 in water.  therfore, temperature may be increasing and THAT is what causes CO2 to increase in the atmosphere, because the earths oceans cannot hold as much C02 under increasing temperature.

3) The models used to predict 'man made global warming' are a joke.  Now think about this one.  The fucking weather man on TV can't predict the weather a week in advance, but we are supposed to believe that scientists can predict how the weather will change in the next 100 years??????  :rofl2:

OK, those are examples.  So you might say, well, prove the alternative theories. 

WRONG!!!  In the scientific method, the person who generates a hypothesis has to disprove the alternate explanations of the phenomena.  They have the burden of proof.  The people who generate the alternate explanations dont have to do a fucking thing.  Once an alternate theory is proposed as an explanation, it needs to be disproven by data and experiment.

And that is where the man-made global warming theory breaks down.  The Warmers have not produced evidence or experiments that disprove the plethora of alternate explanations that explain climate change.

Note that I didn't say global climate change is BS, I said that it hasn't come close to being proven by SCIENTIFIC METHOD.

And with that explanation, one can now see the fallacy--or lets put it bluntly--the absolutely idiotic statement of Al Gore when he said 'The debate is over' 

So Enlil, you need to think of this as a scientist, not a lawyer because in lawyer talk your argument is technically valid.  But in scientific talk its nonsense.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19354458 - 01/01/14 11:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That's my point though...I'm not a scientist.  97% of the scientists that have applied the scientific method to the problem and rendered an opinion agree that global warming is anthropogenic.  I have to assume that they aren't all incompetent.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19354724 - 01/01/14 01:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

97% of the scientists that have applied the scientific method to the problem and rendered an opinion agree that global warming is anthropogenic.



But that's just it... they don't agree. That number is a completely fraudulent number.


Phred


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19366483 - 01/04/14 12:13 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's my point though...I'm not a scientist.  97% of the scientists that have applied the scientific method to the problem and rendered an opinion agree that global warming is anthropogenic.  I have to assume that they aren't all incompetent.





My point was they haven't applied the scientific method.  There are a plethora of alternate hypothesis which have to be disproven, and they can't do it.  MAN MADE global warming is just a bull-shit theory.  That's why I mentioned Al Gore's 'duh,the debate is over' statement was one of the most ignorant, non-scientific pieces of progressive bullshit to ever be stated.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19366693 - 01/04/14 02:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

97% of the scientists that have applied the scientific method to the problem and rendered an opinion agree that global warming is anthropogenic.



But that's just it... they don't agree. That number is a completely fraudulent number.


Phred





Ya its higher, because guys like Starfire who have no credibility whatsoever in Climatology can say “as a scientist....” infact there is a pretty strong disinformation campaign funded by energy companies and presented by groups like the american chemistry council, who are in fact chemists paid of by whatever corporate interest to try to give their cause legitimacy. Ya I’m going to listen to a Chemist employed by BP that tells me massive oil consumption has no effect on the climate :rolleyes:


And since when are Engineers scientists? I go to a very prestigious engineering school (I’m not an engineer) and none of them call themselves scientists.


Thats like me, a business major lets say under the employ of a engineering PAC, “i can tell you that bridge is structurally stable” even though i have zero credibility in that field.
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
That's my point though...I'm not a scientist.  97% of the scientists that have applied the scientific method to the problem and rendered an opinion agree that global warming is anthropogenic.  I have to assume that they aren't all incompetent.





My point was they haven't applied the scientific method.  There are a plethora of alternate hypothesis which have to be disproven, and they can't do it.  MAN MADE global warming is just a bull-shit theory.  That's why I mentioned Al Gore's 'duh,the debate is over' statement was one of the most ignorant, non-scientific pieces of progressive bullshit to ever be stated.




You know how i know you are not a scientist, That first sentence right up there.

You know who also isn’t a scientist, Al Gore. I don’t know why you guys act like Al Gore was the first guy that came up with this, because he made a movie about it.The limits of growth came out in like 69 and that is when scientists seriously started to look at this.

Do you also question the validity of Evolution? And act like there is a serious debate there as well :loldongs:


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: elax420]
    #19366856 - 01/04/14 04:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

97% of the scientists that have applied the scientific method to the problem and rendered an opinion agree that global warming is anthropogenic.



But that's just it... they don't agree. That number is a completely fraudulent number.


Phred





Ya its higher, because guys like Starfire who have no credibility whatsoever in Climatology can say “as a scientist....” infact there is a pretty strong disinformation campaign funded by energy companies and presented by groups like the american chemistry council, who are in fact chemists paid of by whatever corporate interest to try to give their cause legitimacy. Ya I’m going to listen to a Chemist employed by BP that tells me massive oil consumption has no effect on the climate :rolleyes:


And since when are Engineers scientists? I go to a very prestigious engineering school (I’m not an engineer) and none of them call themselves scientists.


Thats like me, a business major lets say under the employ of a engineering PAC, “i can tell you that bridge is structurally stable” even though i have zero credibility in that field.
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
That's my point though...I'm not a scientist.  97% of the scientists that have applied the scientific method to the problem and rendered an opinion agree that global warming is anthropogenic.  I have to assume that they aren't all incompetent.





My point was they haven't applied the scientific method.  There are a plethora of alternate hypothesis which have to be disproven, and they can't do it.  MAN MADE global warming is just a bull-shit theory.  That's why I mentioned Al Gore's 'duh,the debate is over' statement was one of the most ignorant, non-scientific pieces of progressive bullshit to ever be stated.




You know how i know you are not a scientist, That first sentence right up there.

You know who also isn’t a scientist, Al Gore. I don’t know why you guys act like Al Gore was the first guy that came up with this, because he made a movie about it.The limits of growth came out in like 69 and that is when scientists seriously started to look at this.

Do you also question the validity of Evolution? And act like there is a serious debate there as well :loldongs:





It's higher?  Show me the PROOF of global warming.  You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.  By the way, we are having one of the coldest winters on record.  :lolsy:

Oh, and engineers ARE scientists.  Engineering is applied physics.  Didn't you know that?  But I guess I don't know anything about science since I have a BS in electrical engineerig, enough credits for and MSEE, almost enough credits for a masters in engineering physics, and enough for a bachelors in mathematics.  Oh, and by the way, I graduated with honors.

Any YOUR qualifications for discussing science are?  Im not sure why you are called ex lax because you are still full of shit.  :smirk::lolsy:


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19366876 - 01/04/14 04:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

oh, and by the way Ex Lax, don't bother responding to my threads anymore.  You are neither qualified to discuss matters of science, nor are you articulate enough to even make a logical point. 

So don't bother with your nonsense anymore, I don't wqnt to waste my time, you are an embarrasment, you know absolutely NOTHING about science, and I'm not really interested in listening to 'Progressive' bullshit when it masquerades as educated and logical argument. 

OK?  Don't respond anymore to me, I won't respond to you, that way we don't have to argue and we won't get banned. 

MODS, please note I'm offering a truce here with Ex Lax so I will consider any further attempts by him to badmouth me trolling.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19366929 - 01/04/14 05:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:

It's higher?  Show me the PROOF of global warming.  You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.  By the way, we are having one of the coldest winters on record. 



This is where you show your own ignorance about the issue.  You keep talking about weather when this entire debate is about climate.  They aren't the same at all.  This is at least the second time you've done this in this thread, despite being called out on it before.

The fact is that global warming can and will lead to colder winters.  It can create greater extremes of weather period.  You seriously sound like someone who hasn't looked into even the most fundamental principals of climate and weather systems.  Please explain to me why I should consider your opinion to have any weight in comparison to 97% of the experts on the issue?

Despite what you and phred say, the debate actually IS over.  The anthropogenic global warming deniers are out there, sure...but so are the intelligent design/creation advocates.  Anthropogenic global warming is about as universally accepted as evolution among scientists.  There really is no legitimate debate except in the media and Congress.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19366955 - 01/04/14 05:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Please explain to me why I should consider your opinion to have any weight in comparison to 97% of the experts on the issue?



One more time... the 97% number has been repeatedly shown by numerous sources to be fraudulent.

Quote:

Anthropogenic global warming is about as universally accepted as evolution among scientists.



Do the majority of scientists believe human activity has some effect on climate? Of course, duh. So does the activity of termites (seriously... I am not making this up). What the majority of scientists don't believe is that the very small amount of warming since 1800 is due solely to humans burning stuff.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19367124 - 01/04/14 07:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Say it as many times as you want, dude...It's apparent you haven't looked into the issue very deeply.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19367314 - 01/04/14 09:09 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The reverse is true. It is quite obvious your entire knowledge of the subject amounts to "97% of the people who should know say they believe it". The problem is that this number is completely fraudulent.

On the other hand, my knowledge on the subject is vast. I've looked into this issue more deeply than anyone else posting on this forum, hands down. That's why even before reading Cook, Nuccitelli et al I knew there would be at the very least glaring flaws in their methodology. As it turns out, there was also outright fraud. As in, deliberate misrepresentation of the positions of those their survey purported to represent.

There is nowhere close to a scientific consensus that humans burning stuff will cause the temperature of the earth's atmosphere to rise even a little bit, much less by a harmful amount, and anyone who believes there is such a consensus is - to put it tactfully - naive.


Phred


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19367756 - 01/04/14 11:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm quite certain that you're incorrect both about your level of knowledge and your conclusions.  So here we sit...two anonymous internet users who think the other is incorrect.

I'd hazard a guess that this isn't the first situation like this, nor will it be the last.  In either case, the opinions of a few users on a drug forum don't amount to a hill of beans in the grander scheme.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Phred]
    #19367904 - 01/04/14 12:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Please explain to me why I should consider your opinion to have any weight in comparison to 97% of the experts on the issue?



One more time... the 97% number has been repeatedly shown by numerous sources to be fraudulent.

Quote:

Anthropogenic global warming is about as universally accepted as evolution among scientists.



Do the majority of scientists believe human activity has some effect on climate? Of course, duh. So does the activity of termites (seriously... I am not making this up). What the majority of scientists don't believe is that the very small amount of warming since 1800 is due solely to humans burning stuff.


Phred





A strong correlation in the rise of the industrial revolution and corresponding climate patterns versus CO2 emissions. How do you even make this claim? I sure would like to see it substantiated...


According to American Chemical Society http://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/climatescience/greenhousegases/industrialrevolution.html

Quote:

Data for the past 2000 years show that the atmospheric concentrations of CO2, CH4, and N2O – three important long-lived greenhouse gases – have increased substantially since about 1750. Rates of increase in levels of these gases are dramatic. CO2, for instance, never increased more than 30 ppm during any previous 1,000-year period in this record but has already risen by 30 ppm in the past two decades.






Quote:

These increases in greenhouse gas concentrations and their marked rate of change are largely attributable to human activities since the Industrial Revolution (1800). The increases and current atmospheric levels are the result of the competition between sources (the emissions of these gases from human activities and natural systems) and sinks (their removal from the atmosphere by conversion to different chemical compounds--for example, CO2 is removed by photosynthesis and conversion to carbonates). Brief summaries of these factors for several important greenhouse gases are given in Greenhouse Gas Sources and Sinks with graphics showing the human and natural contributions to their emissions (and sinks).





Now, Correlation may not equal causation, but seeing how greenhouse gas emissions and how they have risen in the past 100 years, it doesnt even take a climatologist to see the collaboration between global warming and human made industrial processes.

Of course some paleoclimatologists claim dinosaur farts raised the temperature of the earth, if dinosaur farts were that powerful i dont doubt humans could make a serious impact either.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/17953792


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #19367952 - 01/04/14 12:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

No, dude...Phred knows more about it that anyone else in this thread...he said so.  He also knows more than 97% of experts.

Phred:  You should really edit this entry since you're clearly the one with the inside knowledge:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19368104 - 01/04/14 12:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
oh, and by the way Ex Lax, don't bother responding to my threads anymore.  You are neither qualified to discuss matters of science, nor are you articulate enough to even make a logical point. 

So don't bother with your nonsense anymore, I don't wqnt to waste my time, you are an embarrasment, you know absolutely NOTHING about science, and I'm not really interested in listening to 'Progressive' bullshit when it masquerades as educated and logical argument. 

OK?  Don't respond anymore to me, I won't respond to you, that way we don't have to argue and we won't get banned. 

MODS, please note I'm offering a truce here with Ex Lax so I will consider any further attempts by him to badmouth me trolling.





Go into the other thread. If you want the numbers. No sense in wasting all my time finding that shit when you guys don’t even look at it.

Atleast i dont respond to disagreement with some bullshit call to authority, when you are not a scientist in any way shape or form. Outside of physics you literally have as much understanding on science as any HS grad.


I am even doubting you are an engineer, with how simple minded some of your posts come across. If you know anything about Global Warming at all you would know that extreme weather patterns are a side effect of it and do not disprove it.

Btw i don’t know what part of the country you live in but my state has had the warmest on record, nice facts there super engineer scientist, who likes talking out of his ass about things he doesn’t understand, and replying by nah nah nah cant  hear you.


And how about you stop openly trolling me. Im going to respond to you threads as long as you keep making these disinfo things.

Especially the ones dealing with the economy. IF you actually went to college you would realize how ridiculous half these threads are. Oh wait professors are all a part of the liberal agenda :lol:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19368342 - 01/04/14 01:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm quite certain that you're incorrect both about your level of knowledge and your conclusions.



Your certainty is misplaced. There have been dozens of global warming threads in this forum over the years. No one in those threads has demonstrated more in-depth knowledge than I have. And no-one has ever provided any evidence that the burning of stuff by humans is responsible for the very small increase in the temperature of the earth's lower atmosphere since 1800. Starfire is absolutely correct on that.

But the members of this forum shouldn't feel ashamed at their failure to produce such evidence, because no one else in any other forum has produced any either.


Phred


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: Enlil]
    #19369653 - 01/04/14 06:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm quite certain that you're incorrect both about your level of knowledge and your conclusions.  So here we sit...two anonymous internet users who think the other is incorrect.

I'd hazard a guess that this isn't the first situation like this, nor will it be the last.  In either case, the opinions of a few users on a drug forum don't amount to a hill of beans in the grander scheme.





The opinions of scientists who fudge the data in IPCC resarch to match their models doesn't amount to a hill of beans either, in the grander scheme. :smirk:


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19370061 - 01/04/14 07:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Why do we need scientists to realize we are destroying our environment?    When my old man was in his 20s he lived in visalia ca. It was back in the 60s and he says you could see all the way to the sequoia mountains like 60 miles away. the sky was clear and blue, now you cant see shit , just a wall of brown shit. And it doesnt just block out the mountains , it hides buildings. You can see it when your driving down out of the mountains and you think , holy fucking shit Im going to breath that, and you try to cope by telling yourself , well at least its not LA .
  No scientist needed at that point....you guys can take your global warming argument and shove it.
  Who gives a fuck about a few degrees in temp, melting ice , bad weather , and dying polar bears when the air is poisoning me? You think  the poor fucks who live here  give a fuck about what a scientist has to say?



They dont need to see the evidence or hear the argument, and they probably dont give flying fuckall about the warming part. They know its bad.
  You think this guy needs some dork in a lab coat to tell him shit is bad to breath and he should cover his mouth? He probably knows.



  I dont need a scientist to tell me all that brown shit I see in the air is fuckin things up.
  And the thicker it is its more likely to trap heat. Ill just take my ignorance on that one .Even if you and the other 3% of scientists are right you ll be wrong eventually. Population growth will make sure of it. Its like lighting a barbeque in the center of your house. Eventually things will get warmer and the air will kill you. Pretty fuckin simple.


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Re: Republicans and Democrats Explain Something To Me..... [Re: psilynut]
    #19370488 - 01/04/14 09:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Why do we need scientists to realize we are destroying our environment?    When my old man was in his 20s he lived in visalia ca. It was back in the 60s and he says you could see all the way to the sequoia mountains like 60 miles away. the sky was clear and blue, now you cant see shit , just a wall of brown shit. And it doesnt just block out the mountains , it hides buildings. You can see it when your driving down out of the mountains and you think , holy fucking shit Im going to breath that, and you try to cope by telling yourself , well at least its not LA .
  No scientist needed at that point....you guys can take your global warming argument and shove it.
  Who gives a fuck about a few degrees in temp, melting ice , bad weather , and dying polar bears when the air is poisoning me? You think  the poor fucks who live here  give a fuck about what a scientist has to say?



They dont need to see the evidence or hear the argument, and they probably dont give flying fuckall about the warming part. They know its bad.
  You think this guy needs some dork in a lab coat to tell him shit is bad to breath and he should cover his mouth? He probably knows.



  I dont need a scientist to tell me all that brown shit I see in the air is fuckin things up.
  And the thicker it is its more likely to trap heat. Ill just take my ignorance on that one .Even if you and the other 3% of scientists are right you ll be wrong eventually. Population growth will make sure of it. Its like lighting a barbeque in the center of your house. Eventually things will get warmer and the air will kill you. Pretty fuckin simple.




OK, shit us some data that supports you viewpoint.  Want to know what the EPA Says? 

"EPA creates air quality trends using measurements from monitors located across the country. The table below shows that air quality based on concentrations of the common pollutants has improved nationally since 1980."

Here's the source link...

http://www.epa.gov/airtrends/aqtrends.html




Oh, SHIT!!!  According to the EPA, air quality has been improving steadily since 1970.  But fuck, we need to tax and regulate because there is a problem with air quality.

Face it, the air-pollution/global warming bullshit is a political agenda designed by certain people to enrich themselves. 

That they've sold it to a bunch of progressives as science is not surprising.  After all, 'if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit'

That's game, set, and match in favor of 'the deniers'  :smug: :smirk:


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