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lexiqon
Stranger
Registered: 01/03/14
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Last seen: 10 years, 19 days
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Psilocybe subaeruginosa?
#19363702 - 01/03/14 02:39 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Wild picked in Australia. I'm told they are subs but they look different from most pictures on the net.
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Ganzig
It's for the street cred


Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 8,206
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: lexiqon]
#19363713 - 01/03/14 02:41 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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They look like cyans to me. But I dunno.
They are in the genus Psilocybe though.
When were these found?
--------------------
I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this.
Edited by Ganzig (01/03/14 02:42 PM)
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maynardjameskeenan
The white stipes



Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 16,391
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: lexiqon]
#19363720 - 01/03/14 02:42 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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They look kinda like Psilocybe cyanescens, did you find them recently? If you found them Australia they are most likely Psilocybe subaeruginosa.
-------------------- May you be filled with loving kindness. May you be well. May you be peaceful and at ease. May you be happy. AMU Q&A
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lexiqon
Stranger
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Ganzig]
#19363730 - 01/03/14 02:46 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Thanks for the response. Unsure exactly when picked sorry.
Edited by lexiqon (01/03/14 03:04 PM)
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PoopyGonzales
Illuminati Recruitment Officer



Registered: 02/26/11
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: lexiqon]
#19363808 - 01/03/14 03:06 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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isnt it a bit late in the year for subs though?? its summer in australia at the moment
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Ganzig
It's for the street cred


Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 8,206
Loc: Oregon
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I am also confused by this.
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inski
Cortinariologist



Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: lexiqon]
#19364043 - 01/03/14 03:58 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
lexiqon said: Thanks for the response. Unsure exactly when picked sorry.
So.....You collected these but you don't know when?
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HarryL
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: inski]
#19364090 - 01/03/14 04:08 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Do you know what habitat they were on?
-------------------- Mushroom hunting: One bad mushroom can ruin your day! Know it or throw it.
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lexiqon
Stranger
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: HarryL]
#19364289 - 01/03/14 04:48 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Sorry I got these from a friend of a friend so I don't have the details of exactly when and where. I'm assuming it was recently but I could be wrong. Just wanted to double check what they were.
Edited by lexiqon (01/03/14 04:49 PM)
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TimmiT


Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 5,303
Loc: Victoria
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: lexiqon]
#19365860 - 01/03/14 09:22 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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When was the photo taken?
-------------------- "Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: TimmiT]
#19365893 - 01/03/14 09:29 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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are they dry now?
Psilocybe subaeruginosa if the picture was taken in Australia.
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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lexiqon
Stranger
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19366113 - 01/03/14 10:16 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Pic was sent by my friend. I haven't actually got them yet but they will be dry when I do. Perhaps it is an old pic and they've been dry for awhile. Good to know they are probably subs though
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Ganzig
It's for the street cred


Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 8,206
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: lexiqon]
#19366127 - 01/03/14 10:20 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
lexiqon said: Pic was sent by my friend. I haven't actually got them yet but they will be dry when I do.
Haha! Hilarious OP. Well, you have got some quality fungi coming your way either way.
This was fun.
--------------------
I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: lexiqon]
#19370086 - 01/04/14 08:02 PM (10 years, 26 days ago) |
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Probably Psilocybe cyanescens.
Recent DNA work confirms that P. cyanescens does occur in Australia.
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xthrx
Stranger


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Meaning it is more than possible that the species also occurs in New Zealand?
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maynardjameskeenan
The white stipes



Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 16,391
Loc: 'Merica
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: Probably Psilocybe cyanescens.
Recent DNA work confirms that P. cyanescens does occur in Australia.
Wow! Do you think they are indigenous to Australia or did they spread from a cultivation? I remember seeing a few collection of P. subaeruginosa that looked a helluva lot like cyanescens. Good to know.
-------------------- May you be filled with loving kindness. May you be well. May you be peaceful and at ease. May you be happy. AMU Q&A
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
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Probably not indigenous.
It's likely that P. subaeruginosa collections that look a lot like P. cyanescens really are cyanescens.
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: Probably not indigenous.
It's likely that P. subaeruginosa collections that look a lot like P. cyanescens really are cyanescens.
Could be, Id like to see that collection, well the pictures at the very least, location ect., .
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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inski
Cortinariologist



Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: xthrx]
#19370944 - 01/05/14 12:26 AM (10 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
xthrx said: Meaning it is more than possible that the species also occurs in New Zealand?
It does occur here!
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maynardjameskeenan
The white stipes



Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 16,391
Loc: 'Merica
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19370945 - 01/05/14 12:26 AM (10 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joust said:
Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: Probably not indigenous.
It's likely that P. subaeruginosa collections that look a lot like P. cyanescens really are cyanescens.
Could be, Id like to see that collection, well the pictures at the very least, location ect., .
-------------------- May you be filled with loving kindness. May you be well. May you be peaceful and at ease. May you be happy. AMU Q&A
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: inski]
#19372838 - 01/05/14 12:58 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
inski said:
Quote:
xthrx said: Meaning it is more than possible that the species also occurs in New Zealand?
It does occur here!
have you done sequencing?
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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Lepkaun
Super Stooper



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P. subaeruginosa has been found in the P.N.W. right? So totally logical that P.cyanescens are found in Australia.
Spores and myc be spreading everywhere.
--------------------
Leppy say's: Seek and you will find!Ask and they will guide you!Listen and be taught!!
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
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Loc: WA
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Lepkaun]
#19372973 - 01/05/14 01:22 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Lepkaun said: P. subaeruginosa has been found in the P.N.W. right? So totally logical that P.cyanescens are found in Australia.
Spores and myc be spreading everywhere.
No. they were cultivated by Neo
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Lepkaun]
#19373096 - 01/05/14 01:46 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Lepkaun said: P. subaeruginosa has been found in the P.N.W. right?
No.
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maynardjameskeenan
The white stipes



Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 16,391
Loc: 'Merica
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-------------------- May you be filled with loving kindness. May you be well. May you be peaceful and at ease. May you be happy. AMU Q&A
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xthrx
Stranger


Registered: 04/29/09
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Very interesting, I have definitely found cyans then I guess.
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Blazer420
ŦøжїϿ ÐȐȜȧƜƐȓ

Registered: 06/13/09
Posts: 4,825
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: xthrx]
#19375039 - 01/05/14 10:04 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Very interesting Looking forward to the hunt this season!!
-------------------- ~ I used to get high on life, until I realized life was cut with morons ~ * You need 2 wake up and smell the music! * -We are all computer data in a materialistic world- |Sometimes you have to lose yourself, to find anything|
 
Edited by Blazer420 (01/05/14 10:05 PM)
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inski
Cortinariologist



Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19375222 - 01/05/14 10:57 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joust said:
Quote:
inski said:
Quote:
xthrx said: Meaning it is more than possible that the species also occurs in New Zealand?
It does occur here!
have you done sequencing?
Jan has done this sequencing and published the results in his 2012 paper describing P. allenii, one sequence from a collection of P. subaeruginosa from Auckland turned out to be 100% identical with P. cyanescens.
I believe the images that Maynard posted above are P. cyanescens.
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: inski]
#19375377 - 01/06/14 12:13 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
inski said:
Quote:
Joust said:
Quote:
inski said:
Quote:
xthrx said: Meaning it is more than possible that the species also occurs in New Zealand?
It does occur here!
have you done sequencing?
Jan has done this sequencing and published the results in his 2012 paper describing P. allenii, one sequence from a collection of P. subaeruginosa from Auckland turned out to be 100% identical with P. cyanescens.
I believe the images that Maynard posted above are P. cyanescens.
i guarantee you they are Psilocybe subaeruginosa, they were cultivated by neo from spores. The spores came from an Australian collection. I also have rarely seen cyans with that pronounced of a nipple.
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
Edited by Joust (01/06/14 12:34 AM)
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust] 1
#19375417 - 01/06/14 12:31 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Inski is referring to this line in the paper.
"Phylogenic anylisis has revealed that this group of fungi is closely related to P. cyanescens, as already sugested by Chang and Mills (1992); Interestingly enough the ITS rDNA reigion of the collection PDD 91967 was 100% similar with P. cyanescens"
Thats a pretty bold interpretation of that sentence. I would like to see a full segenced genome, its great that we can find this usless DNA and sort pretty well with it, but 100% of a tiny segment is not saying everything. At some point they will obviously have different base pairs and the genetics will show through that, so i understand, and understand the problems with full genome sequencing ect.
I messaged Jan to see what he direct thoughts are..
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19375534 - 01/06/14 01:34 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Jan "It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."
He is just about the coolest ever..
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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TimmiT


Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 5,303
Loc: Victoria
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19375834 - 01/06/14 04:54 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joust said: Thats a pretty bold interpretation of that sentence. I would like to see a full segenced genome, its great that we can find this usless DNA and sort pretty well with it, but 100% of a tiny segment is not saying everything. At some point they will obviously have different base pairs and the genetics will show through that, so i understand, and understand the problems with full genome sequencing ect.
A full genome isn't necessary (or even very useful) to gain phylogenetic insights. Different regions of DNA mutate at different rates. A region that is highly conserved (acquires few mutations over time) will be more useful when looking at higher taxonomic ranks. Conversely, a region that acquires mutations more quickly (in evolutionary terms) will be more useful for looking at lower taxonomic ranks. One that mutates too slowly or too quickly isn't going to be very useful for phyolgenetics.
You are right that looking at one little segment of DNA gives limited taxonomic insight, but that improves when comparing multiple segments that have each been chosen because they are phylogenetically useful.
-------------------- "Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon
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inski
Cortinariologist



Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19376668 - 01/06/14 10:26 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joust said: Jan "It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."
He is just about the coolest ever..
Ahh, great, this conspecificity is as I suggested quite a while ago, one example here. http://mushroomobserver.org/61233?q=1j9MX I also remember suggesting it here but I don't have time to find the threads, that was before the name P. allenii had been published. It will be interesting to learn more from further data.
I retain my theoretical idea that P. weraroa is at the root of this evolutionary lineage, it is likely to be the oldest surviving form of this group of wood decomposing Psilocybe.
Edited by inski (01/06/14 10:31 AM)
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Lepkaun
Super Stooper



Registered: 10/07/10
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19376969 - 01/06/14 11:41 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joust said:
Quote:
Lepkaun said: P. subaeruginosa has been found in the P.N.W. right? So totally logical that P.cyanescens are found in Australia.
Spores and myc be spreading everywhere.
No. they were cultivated by Neo
All I was trying to say is it is not surprising to see different Psilocybe species being introduced or popping up in new regions of the world. For instance Neo propagated P.serbica and P.subaeruginosa. Both which could adapt,mutate and escape into the myco flora of the P.N.W.like P.ovoids. Sometime ago peeps (or the wind) brought P.cyanescens spores to Australia and they landed in the right environment. Just like us here in America we spread spores from Europe all the fuck over.
--------------------
Leppy say's: Seek and you will find!Ask and they will guide you!Listen and be taught!!
Edited by Lepkaun (01/06/14 11:47 AM)
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Lepkaun]
#19377060 - 01/06/14 12:10 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Alright lets see. Sorry guys I had a bad day yesterday, didnt mean to be an ass... I wanted to be right for once... today lol
SO YES!
Quote:
inski said:
Quote:
Joust said: Jan "It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."
He is just about the coolest ever..
Ahh, great, this conspecificity is as I suggested quite a while ago, one example here. http://mushroomobserver.org/61233?q=1j9MX I also remember suggesting it here but I don't have time to find the threads, that was before the name P. allenii had been published. It will be interesting to learn more from further data.
I retain my theoretical idea that P. weraroa is at the root of this evolutionary lineage, it is likely to be the oldest surviving form of this group of wood decomposing Psilocybe.
Cool, why not Ps. allenii on that observation, doesnt look like subs at all....
Yes he is working hard on projects right now. But he will sequence quite a few of my collections including the subs to make sure... Really interesting stuff.
Quote:
TimmiT said:
Quote:
Joust said: Thats a pretty bold interpretation of that sentence. I would like to see a full segenced genome, its great that we can find this usless DNA and sort pretty well with it, but 100% of a tiny segment is not saying everything. At some point they will obviously have different base pairs and the genetics will show through that, so i understand, and understand the problems with full genome sequencing ect.
A full genome isn't necessary (or even very useful) to gain phylogenetic insights. Different regions of DNA mutate at different rates. A region that is highly conserved (acquires few mutations over time) will be more useful when looking at higher taxonomic ranks. Conversely, a region that acquires mutations more quickly (in evolutionary terms) will be more useful for looking at lower taxonomic ranks. One that mutates too slowly or too quickly isn't going to be very useful for phyolgenetics.
You are right that looking at one little segment of DNA gives limited taxonomic insight, but that improves when comparing multiple segments that have each been chosen because they are phylogenetically useful.
Oh yeah, im sure the Dr. have a pretty good reason for doing the way they do things. I think we are missing something though, maybe a whole other reigion of DNA we havent looked at. who knows, im not good with DNA yet. My sister in law is a genetic counselor and is pretty interested in genetics of mushies. SHe has been helping me understand whats it all means. I might invest in a biotech setup so i can prepare DNA for sequencing. Ive been saving up. That way all i have to do is mail in the dna.
Quote:
Lepkaun said:
Quote:
Joust said:
Quote:
Lepkaun said: P. subaeruginosa has been found in the P.N.W. right? So totally logical that P.cyanescens are found in Australia.
Spores and myc be spreading everywhere.
No. they were cultivated by Neo
All I was trying to say is it is not surprising to see different Psilocybe species being introduced or popping up in new regions of the world. For instance Neo propagated P.serbica and P.subaeruginosa. Both which could adapt,mutate and escape into the myco flora of the P.N.W.like P.ovoids. Sometime ago peeps (or the wind) brought P.cyanescens spores to Australia and they landed in the right environment. Just like us here in America we spread spores from Europe all the fuck over.
Toatally! NEO, Psylo, there are lots out there that cultivate rare species. Thats why i was thinking cult vrs any sort of natural presence,
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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suchen
Once and Future Noob



Registered: 06/28/11
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Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19377597 - 01/06/14 02:56 PM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joust said: Oh yeah, im sure the Dr. have a pretty good reason for doing the way they do things. I think we are missing something though, maybe a whole other reigion of DNA we havent looked at. who knows, im not good with DNA yet.
To reiterate what Timmit said, the DNA sequences which scientists use to compare the "likeness" of two mushrooms (and plants, animals, etc.) have been very carefully chosen for the simple fact that they have been shown to take a massive amount of time to mutate even one or two base pairs. Scientists currently use small subunit rRNA, and DNA from the internal transcribed spacer (ITS; formerly known as "junk" DNA) because these regions are some of the most highly conserved stretches of genetic material in any organism.
Comparing sequences from less highly conserved regions of the two mushrooms' genetic codes can show a lot of variation because this genetic material has the annoying (yet extremely beneficial over the long run) habit of allowing all sorts of crazy rewrites. Having a fully sequenced genome would be useful in other ways though, no doubt.
-------------------- Rod Tulloss said: The bulb is the bulb. The volva is the volva. They have a very long term realtionship, but they’re “just friends.”
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: suchen]
#19379253 - 01/06/14 08:27 PM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
suchen said:
Quote:
Joust said: Oh yeah, im sure the Dr. have a pretty good reason for doing the way they do things. I think we are missing something though, maybe a whole other reigion of DNA we havent looked at. who knows, im not good with DNA yet.
To reiterate what Timmit said, the DNA sequences which scientists use to compare the "likeness" of two mushrooms (and plants, animals, etc.) have been very carefully chosen for the simple fact that they have been shown to take a massive amount of time to mutate even one or two base pairs. Scientists currently use small subunit rRNA, and DNA from the internal transcribed spacer (ITS; formerly known as "junk" DNA) because these regions are some of the most highly conserved stretches of genetic material in any organism.
Comparing sequences from less highly conserved regions of the two mushrooms' genetic codes can show a lot of variation because this genetic material has the annoying (yet extremely beneficial over the long run) habit of allowing all sorts of crazy rewrites. Having a fully sequenced genome would be useful in other ways though, no doubt.
Thank you, that helps a lot I dont deserve to be here
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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inski
Cortinariologist



Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19379974 - 01/06/14 10:46 PM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joust said: Alright lets see. Sorry guys I had a bad day yesterday, didnt mean to be an ass... I wanted to be right for once... today lol
SO YES!
Cool, why not Ps. allenii on that observation, doesnt look like subs at all....
I didn't think you were being an ass, anyway..... Yes, P. allenii for that observation, but note the date, it was still being called P. "cyanofriscosa" back then, the observer and a few others as far as I know were going to publish it as P. "turpis" which roughly translates as "the ugly Psilocybe", they don't like the genus...Alan beat them to it. I always thought P. allenii was conspecific with P. subaeruginosa, in macroscopic form I see a great similarity and now with Jan's reply to your questions it seems he is considering the conspecificity of all of those species, P. azurescens, P. cyanescens, P. allenii all as varieties of P. subaeruginosa, a bit like the P. serbica complex, I will leave my suggestion of that name for that observation until further study is done, and maybe in the future all observations of the above mentioned species will need to be changed to P. subaeruginosa.
Also, you say the cultivated specimens you posted above are without a doubt P. subaeruginosa because they were grown from spores from Australia, how do you know the spores were not from P. cyanescens collected in Australia, if indeed they are separate species
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: inski]
#19380126 - 01/06/14 11:19 PM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
inski said:
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Joust said: Alright lets see. Sorry guys I had a bad day yesterday, didnt mean to be an ass... I wanted to be right for once... today lol
SO YES!
Cool, why not Ps. allenii on that observation, doesnt look like subs at all....
I didn't think you were being an ass, anyway..... Yes, P. allenii for that observation, but note the date, it was still being called P. "cyanofriscosa" back then, the observer and a few others as far as I know were going to publish it as P. "turpis" which roughly translates as "the ugly Psilocybe", they don't like the genus...Alan beat them to it. I always thought P. allenii was conspecific with P. subaeruginosa, in macroscopic form I see a great similarity and now with Jan's reply to your questions it seems he is considering the conspecificity of all of those species, P. azurescens, P. cyanescens, P. allenii all as varieties of P. subaeruginosa, a bit like the P. serbica complex, I will leave my suggestion of that name for that observation until further study is done, and maybe in the future all observations of the above mentioned species will need to be changed to P. subaeruginosa.
Also, you say the cultivated specimens you posted above are without a doubt P. subaeruginosa because they were grown from spores from Australia, how do you know the spores were not from P. cyanescens collected in Australia, if indeed they are separate species
haha i do not. though ive never seen such pronounced nipples on cyans. This is ok though!! Jan will sequence soon i think. he seemed very interested in the collection. One way or another theyll get sequenced!
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19380752 - 01/07/14 02:57 AM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joust said: "It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."
He is just about the coolest ever..
That is certainly one way to look at the data. Another way is perhaps P. subaeruginosa, P. cyanescens, P. azurescens and P. allenii evolved in Australia.
A type collection of Psilocybe subaeruginosa was not designated by Cleland in 1927 when he described P. subaeruginosa, and in 1992 Chang and Mills designated a Lectotype.
Does not seem fair to group P. azurescens in with P. subaeruginosa when it is twice as strong, but the DNA analysis of the ITS gene implies that it is closer to P. subaeruginosa than it is to P. cyanescens or P. allenii.
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Lepkaun
Super Stooper



Registered: 10/07/10
Posts: 2,093
Loc: Close and Far
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
Joust said: "It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."
He is just about the coolest ever..
That is certainly one way to look at the data. Another way is perhaps P. subaeruginosa, P. cyanescens, P. azurescens and P. allenii evolved in Australia.
A type collection of Psilocybe subaeruginosa was not designated by Cleland in 1927 when he described P. subaeruginosa, and in 1992 Chang and Mills designated a Lectotype.
Does not seem fair to group P. azurescens in with P. subaeruginosa when it is twice as strong, but the DNA analysis of the ITS gene implies that it is closer to P. subaeruginosa than it is to P. cyanescens or P. allenii.
Great info

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Leppy say's: Seek and you will find!Ask and they will guide you!Listen and be taught!!
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
Joust said: "It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."
He is just about the coolest ever..
That is certainly one way to look at the data. Another way is perhaps P. subaeruginosa, P. cyanescens, P. azurescens and P. allenii evolved in Australia.
A type collection of Psilocybe subaeruginosa was not designated by Cleland in 1927 when he described P. subaeruginosa, and in 1992 Chang and Mills designated a Lectotype.
Does not seem fair to group P. azurescens in with P. subaeruginosa when it is twice as strong, but the DNA analysis of the ITS gene implies that it is closer to P. subaeruginosa than it is to P. cyanescens or P. allenii.
I dont think its fair to group any of them together. I think they are all distinctive enough to be considered their own species.
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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maynardjameskeenan
The white stipes



Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 16,391
Loc: 'Merica
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19382974 - 01/07/14 02:57 PM (10 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joust said:
Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
Joust said: "It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."
He is just about the coolest ever..
That is certainly one way to look at the data. Another way is perhaps P. subaeruginosa, P. cyanescens, P. azurescens and P. allenii evolved in Australia.
A type collection of Psilocybe subaeruginosa was not designated by Cleland in 1927 when he described P. subaeruginosa, and in 1992 Chang and Mills designated a Lectotype.
Does not seem fair to group P. azurescens in with P. subaeruginosa when it is twice as strong, but the DNA analysis of the ITS gene implies that it is closer to P. subaeruginosa than it is to P. cyanescens or P. allenii.
I dont think its fair to group any of them together. I think they are all distinctive enough to be considered their own species. 
Unless they can exchange genes with one another, they should be considered separate species (or sub-species) IMO. Example; All humans can breed with one another even though lots a variation exists. I imagine that they are a species group that has evolved from the original parent species due to geographic isolation over enough time to no long have the ability to breed any longer.
-------------------- May you be filled with loving kindness. May you be well. May you be peaceful and at ease. May you be happy. AMU Q&A
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Quote:
maynardjameskeenan said:
Quote:
Joust said:
Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
Joust said: "It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."
He is just about the coolest ever..
That is certainly one way to look at the data. Another way is perhaps P. subaeruginosa, P. cyanescens, P. azurescens and P. allenii evolved in Australia.
A type collection of Psilocybe subaeruginosa was not designated by Cleland in 1927 when he described P. subaeruginosa, and in 1992 Chang and Mills designated a Lectotype.
Does not seem fair to group P. azurescens in with P. subaeruginosa when it is twice as strong, but the DNA analysis of the ITS gene implies that it is closer to P. subaeruginosa than it is to P. cyanescens or P. allenii.
I dont think its fair to group any of them together. I think they are all distinctive enough to be considered their own species. 
Unless they can exchange genes with one another, they should be considered separate species (or sub-species) IMO. Example; All humans can breed with one another even though lots a variation exists. I imagine that they are a species group that has evolved from the original parent species due to geographic isolation over enough time to no long have the ability to breed any longer.
So i should get someone to grow the subs and cyans on agar and see if they have sexies! cool.
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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raceme
Neither D nor L


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 663
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19383331 - 01/07/14 04:01 PM (10 years, 23 days ago) |
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Hmm, I have spores for both species (or two purported P. subaeruginosas from Australia and New Zealand, anyway). Perhaps when I get a flowhood up and running…
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maynardjameskeenan
The white stipes



Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 16,391
Loc: 'Merica
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: raceme]
#19383397 - 01/07/14 04:10 PM (10 years, 23 days ago) |
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You have to remember though that P. cyanescens and P. azurscens have been growing on top of one another for for the past few million years and haven't produced viable offspring, unless that is what we now call P. allenii. Fuck if I know...  Allenii reminds me of a yellow colored P. subsectoides.
 This is what comes to mind when I think of the two growing together in their natural environment.
-------------------- May you be filled with loving kindness. May you be well. May you be peaceful and at ease. May you be happy. AMU Q&A
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Ahha i love that pic, a classic! Now that ive seen allenii in person, i can truly say they are quite a light colored species compared to cyanescens ect. Thought it might have been just the picture lighting or laptop
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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maynardjameskeenan
The white stipes



Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 16,391
Loc: 'Merica
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19383557 - 01/07/14 04:32 PM (10 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joust said: Ahha i love that pic, a classic! Now that ive seen allenii in person, i can truly say they are quite a light colored species compared to cyanescens ect. Thought it might have been just the picture lighting or laptop
Yeah I smell what you're stepping in. Most the west coast Psilocybes in that section are a caramel or hazel color, while someone with an untrained eye could easily mistake P. allenii for a yellow hypholoma.
*Side note; What happened to the 'Psychoactive Fungi of the World' on mushroomobserver? Did it get changed? It looks like an entire section was either taken out or moved.
I can't keep up if they keep changing things...
-------------------- May you be filled with loving kindness. May you be well. May you be peaceful and at ease. May you be happy. AMU Q&A
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Zen Peddler



Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: Probably Psilocybe cyanescens.
Recent DNA work confirms that P. cyanescens does occur in Australia.
this is only possible if cyanscens and subaeruginosa are cross compatible. The wavy capped sub is a phenotype and is not a stable characteristic; a clone of a wavy capped sub will often not be wavy-capped.
Will cyanescens fruit off eucalyptus with a grey-flecked stem and stable bowling pin cystidia? Its possible that it may take on subaeruginosa characteristics as a phenotypical response to eucalyptus?
Colonies of northern american cyanescens and azurescens were not able to naturalise onto australian hardwoods on at least one occassion and died out when the american hardwood substrate was exhausted.
im led to two conclusions - subaeruginosa and cyanescens must be cross compatible or the sample was mislabelled.
id have to conclude the former much to mjshroomers past protests...
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Zen Peddler



Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Zen Peddler]
#21209864 - 02/01/15 06:44 AM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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The problem with the idea of those others evolving in australia is that none of them prefer our abundant hardwood eucalypts
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