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Lepkaun
Super Stooper



Registered: 10/07/10
Posts: 2,093
Loc: Close and Far
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
Joust said: "It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."
He is just about the coolest ever..
That is certainly one way to look at the data. Another way is perhaps P. subaeruginosa, P. cyanescens, P. azurescens and P. allenii evolved in Australia.
A type collection of Psilocybe subaeruginosa was not designated by Cleland in 1927 when he described P. subaeruginosa, and in 1992 Chang and Mills designated a Lectotype.
Does not seem fair to group P. azurescens in with P. subaeruginosa when it is twice as strong, but the DNA analysis of the ITS gene implies that it is closer to P. subaeruginosa than it is to P. cyanescens or P. allenii.
Great info

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Leppy say's: Seek and you will find!Ask and they will guide you!Listen and be taught!!
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
Joust said: "It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."
He is just about the coolest ever..
That is certainly one way to look at the data. Another way is perhaps P. subaeruginosa, P. cyanescens, P. azurescens and P. allenii evolved in Australia.
A type collection of Psilocybe subaeruginosa was not designated by Cleland in 1927 when he described P. subaeruginosa, and in 1992 Chang and Mills designated a Lectotype.
Does not seem fair to group P. azurescens in with P. subaeruginosa when it is twice as strong, but the DNA analysis of the ITS gene implies that it is closer to P. subaeruginosa than it is to P. cyanescens or P. allenii.
I dont think its fair to group any of them together. I think they are all distinctive enough to be considered their own species.
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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maynardjameskeenan
The white stipes



Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 16,391
Loc: 'Merica
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19382974 - 01/07/14 02:57 PM (10 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joust said:
Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
Joust said: "It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."
He is just about the coolest ever..
That is certainly one way to look at the data. Another way is perhaps P. subaeruginosa, P. cyanescens, P. azurescens and P. allenii evolved in Australia.
A type collection of Psilocybe subaeruginosa was not designated by Cleland in 1927 when he described P. subaeruginosa, and in 1992 Chang and Mills designated a Lectotype.
Does not seem fair to group P. azurescens in with P. subaeruginosa when it is twice as strong, but the DNA analysis of the ITS gene implies that it is closer to P. subaeruginosa than it is to P. cyanescens or P. allenii.
I dont think its fair to group any of them together. I think they are all distinctive enough to be considered their own species. 
Unless they can exchange genes with one another, they should be considered separate species (or sub-species) IMO. Example; All humans can breed with one another even though lots a variation exists. I imagine that they are a species group that has evolved from the original parent species due to geographic isolation over enough time to no long have the ability to breed any longer.
-------------------- May you be filled with loving kindness. May you be well. May you be peaceful and at ease. May you be happy. AMU Q&A
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Quote:
maynardjameskeenan said:
Quote:
Joust said:
Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
Joust said: "It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."
He is just about the coolest ever..
That is certainly one way to look at the data. Another way is perhaps P. subaeruginosa, P. cyanescens, P. azurescens and P. allenii evolved in Australia.
A type collection of Psilocybe subaeruginosa was not designated by Cleland in 1927 when he described P. subaeruginosa, and in 1992 Chang and Mills designated a Lectotype.
Does not seem fair to group P. azurescens in with P. subaeruginosa when it is twice as strong, but the DNA analysis of the ITS gene implies that it is closer to P. subaeruginosa than it is to P. cyanescens or P. allenii.
I dont think its fair to group any of them together. I think they are all distinctive enough to be considered their own species. 
Unless they can exchange genes with one another, they should be considered separate species (or sub-species) IMO. Example; All humans can breed with one another even though lots a variation exists. I imagine that they are a species group that has evolved from the original parent species due to geographic isolation over enough time to no long have the ability to breed any longer.
So i should get someone to grow the subs and cyans on agar and see if they have sexies! cool.
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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raceme
Neither D nor L


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 663
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19383331 - 01/07/14 04:01 PM (10 years, 23 days ago) |
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Hmm, I have spores for both species (or two purported P. subaeruginosas from Australia and New Zealand, anyway). Perhaps when I get a flowhood up and running…
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maynardjameskeenan
The white stipes



Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 16,391
Loc: 'Merica
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: raceme]
#19383397 - 01/07/14 04:10 PM (10 years, 23 days ago) |
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You have to remember though that P. cyanescens and P. azurscens have been growing on top of one another for for the past few million years and haven't produced viable offspring, unless that is what we now call P. allenii. Fuck if I know...  Allenii reminds me of a yellow colored P. subsectoides.
 This is what comes to mind when I think of the two growing together in their natural environment.
-------------------- May you be filled with loving kindness. May you be well. May you be peaceful and at ease. May you be happy. AMU Q&A
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Ahha i love that pic, a classic! Now that ive seen allenii in person, i can truly say they are quite a light colored species compared to cyanescens ect. Thought it might have been just the picture lighting or laptop
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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maynardjameskeenan
The white stipes



Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 16,391
Loc: 'Merica
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
#19383557 - 01/07/14 04:32 PM (10 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joust said: Ahha i love that pic, a classic! Now that ive seen allenii in person, i can truly say they are quite a light colored species compared to cyanescens ect. Thought it might have been just the picture lighting or laptop
Yeah I smell what you're stepping in. Most the west coast Psilocybes in that section are a caramel or hazel color, while someone with an untrained eye could easily mistake P. allenii for a yellow hypholoma.
*Side note; What happened to the 'Psychoactive Fungi of the World' on mushroomobserver? Did it get changed? It looks like an entire section was either taken out or moved.
I can't keep up if they keep changing things...
-------------------- May you be filled with loving kindness. May you be well. May you be peaceful and at ease. May you be happy. AMU Q&A
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Zen Peddler



Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: Probably Psilocybe cyanescens.
Recent DNA work confirms that P. cyanescens does occur in Australia.
this is only possible if cyanscens and subaeruginosa are cross compatible. The wavy capped sub is a phenotype and is not a stable characteristic; a clone of a wavy capped sub will often not be wavy-capped.
Will cyanescens fruit off eucalyptus with a grey-flecked stem and stable bowling pin cystidia? Its possible that it may take on subaeruginosa characteristics as a phenotypical response to eucalyptus?
Colonies of northern american cyanescens and azurescens were not able to naturalise onto australian hardwoods on at least one occassion and died out when the american hardwood substrate was exhausted.
im led to two conclusions - subaeruginosa and cyanescens must be cross compatible or the sample was mislabelled.
id have to conclude the former much to mjshroomers past protests...
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Zen Peddler



Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Zen Peddler]
#21209864 - 02/01/15 06:44 AM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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The problem with the idea of those others evolving in australia is that none of them prefer our abundant hardwood eucalypts
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