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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: inski]
    #19372838 - 01/05/14 12:58 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

inski said:
Quote:

xthrx said:
Meaning it is more than possible that the species also occurs in New Zealand?



It does occur here!



have you done sequencing?


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


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OfflineLepkaun
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: maynardjameskeenan]
    #19372864 - 01/05/14 01:03 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

P. subaeruginosa has been found in the P.N.W. right?
So totally logical that P.cyanescens are found in Australia.
:sporedrop:Spores and myc be spreading everywhere.:sporedrop:


--------------------

Leppy say's::strokebeard:Seek and you will find!Ask and they will guide you!Listen and be taught!!:leaving:


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Lepkaun]
    #19372973 - 01/05/14 01:22 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Lepkaun said:
P. subaeruginosa has been found in the P.N.W. right?
So totally logical that P.cyanescens are found in Australia.
:sporedrop:Spores and myc be spreading everywhere.:sporedrop:



No. they were cultivated by Neo


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Lepkaun]
    #19373096 - 01/05/14 01:46 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Lepkaun said:
P. subaeruginosa has been found in the P.N.W. right?





No.


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Invisiblemaynardjameskeenan
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #19374195 - 01/05/14 06:21 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

Lepkaun said:
P. subaeruginosa has been found in the P.N.W. right?





No.



Well technically, yes!

Quote:

Joust said:
Psilocybe subaeruginosa
A live culture was given to me of this species along with a microscopy section, I didnt want to attempt cultivating this species as it is very illegal to do so. I put this culture outside to die, seems this Australian Psilocybe loves the Washington weather, it has only been about 7 months. very impressive growth.

http://mushroomobserver.org/images/960/383045.jpg
http://mushroomobserver.org/images/960/383046.jpg
http://mushroomobserver.org/images/960/383047.jpg
http://mushroomobserver.org/images/960/383048.jpg
http://mushroomobserver.org/images/960/383049.jpg
http://mushroomobserver.org/images/960/383050.jpg
http://mushroomobserver.org/images/960/383051.jpg
http://mushroomobserver.org/images/960/383052.jpg
http://mushroomobserver.org/images/960/383053.jpg
http://mushroomobserver.org/images/960/383054.jpg
http://mushroomobserver.org/images/960/383055.jpg


















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May you be well.
May you be peaceful and at ease.
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: maynardjameskeenan]
    #19375013 - 01/05/14 09:57 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Very interesting, I have definitely found cyans then I guess.


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InvisibleBlazer420
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: xthrx]
    #19375039 - 01/05/14 10:04 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Very interesting  :laugh: Looking forward to the hunt this season!!


--------------------
~ I used to get high on life, until I realized life was cut with morons ~
* You need 2 wake up and smell the music! *
-We are all computer data in a materialistic world-
|Sometimes you have to lose yourself, to find anything|


Edited by Blazer420 (01/05/14 10:05 PM)


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InvisibleinskiM
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
    #19375222 - 01/05/14 10:57 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Joust said:
Quote:

inski said:
Quote:

xthrx said:
Meaning it is more than possible that the species also occurs in New Zealand?



It does occur here!



have you done sequencing?



Jan has done this sequencing and published the results in his 2012 paper describing P. allenii, one sequence from a collection of P. subaeruginosa from Auckland turned out to be 100% identical with P. cyanescens.

I believe the images that Maynard posted above are P. cyanescens.


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: inski]
    #19375377 - 01/06/14 12:13 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

inski said:
Quote:

Joust said:
Quote:

inski said:
Quote:

xthrx said:
Meaning it is more than possible that the species also occurs in New Zealand?



It does occur here!



have you done sequencing?



Jan has done this sequencing and published the results in his 2012 paper describing P. allenii, one sequence from a collection of P. subaeruginosa from Auckland turned out to be 100% identical with P. cyanescens.

I believe the images that Maynard posted above are P. cyanescens.



i guarantee you they are Psilocybe subaeruginosa, they were cultivated by neo from spores. The spores came from an Australian collection.
I also have rarely seen cyans with that pronounced of a nipple. :crazy2:


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


Edited by Joust (01/06/14 12:34 AM)


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust] * 1
    #19375417 - 01/06/14 12:31 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Inski is referring to this line in the paper.

"Phylogenic anylisis has revealed that this group of fungi is closely related to P. cyanescens, as already sugested by Chang and Mills (1992); Interestingly enough the ITS rDNA reigion of the collection PDD 91967 was 100% similar with P. cyanescens"


Thats a pretty bold interpretation of that sentence. I would like to see a full segenced genome, its great that we can find this usless DNA and sort pretty well with it, but 100% of a tiny segment is not saying everything. At some point they will obviously have different base pairs and the genetics will show through that, so i understand, and understand the problems with full genome sequencing ect.

I messaged Jan to see what he direct thoughts are..


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
    #19375534 - 01/06/14 01:34 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Jan
"It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."

He is just about the coolest ever..


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
    #19375834 - 01/06/14 04:54 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Joust said:
Thats a pretty bold interpretation of that sentence. I would like to see a full segenced genome, its great that we can find this usless DNA and sort pretty well with it, but 100% of a tiny segment is not saying everything. At some point they will obviously have different base pairs and the genetics will show through that, so i understand, and understand the problems with full genome sequencing ect.



A full genome isn't necessary (or even very useful) to gain phylogenetic insights. Different regions of DNA mutate at different rates. A region that is highly conserved (acquires few mutations over time) will be more useful when looking at higher taxonomic ranks. Conversely, a region that acquires mutations more quickly (in evolutionary terms) will be more useful for looking at lower taxonomic ranks. One that mutates too slowly or too quickly isn't going to be very useful for phyolgenetics.

You are right that looking at one little segment of DNA gives limited taxonomic insight, but that improves when comparing multiple segments that have each been chosen because they are phylogenetically useful.


--------------------
"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon


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InvisibleinskiM
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
    #19376668 - 01/06/14 10:26 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Joust said:
Jan
"It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."

He is just about the coolest ever..




Ahh, great, this conspecificity is as I suggested quite a while ago, one example here.
http://mushroomobserver.org/61233?q=1j9MX
I also remember suggesting it here but I don't have time to find the threads, that was before the name P. allenii had been published.
It will be interesting to learn more from further data.

I retain my theoretical idea that P. weraroa is at the root of this evolutionary lineage, it is likely to be the oldest surviving form of this group of wood decomposing Psilocybe.


Edited by inski (01/06/14 10:31 AM)


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OfflineLepkaun
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
    #19376969 - 01/06/14 11:41 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Joust said:
Quote:

Lepkaun said:
P. subaeruginosa has been found in the P.N.W. right?
So totally logical that P.cyanescens are found in Australia.
:sporedrop:Spores and myc be spreading everywhere.:sporedrop:



No. they were cultivated by Neo



All I was trying to say is it is not surprising to see different Psilocybe species being introduced or popping up in new regions of the world. For instance Neo propagated P.serbica and P.subaeruginosa.
Both which could adapt,mutate and escape into the myco flora of the P.N.W.like P.ovoids.
Sometime ago peeps (or the wind):shrug:brought P.cyanescens spores to Australia and they landed in the right environment. Just like us here in America we spread spores from Europe all the fuck over.


--------------------

Leppy say's::strokebeard:Seek and you will find!Ask and they will guide you!Listen and be taught!!:leaving:


Edited by Lepkaun (01/06/14 11:47 AM)


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Lepkaun]
    #19377060 - 01/06/14 12:10 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Alright lets see.
Sorry guys I had a bad day yesterday, didnt mean to be an ass... I wanted to be right for once... today lol

SO YES!


Quote:

inski said:
Quote:

Joust said:
Jan
"It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."

He is just about the coolest ever..




Ahh, great, this conspecificity is as I suggested quite a while ago, one example here.
http://mushroomobserver.org/61233?q=1j9MX
I also remember suggesting it here but I don't have time to find the threads, that was before the name P. allenii had been published.
It will be interesting to learn more from further data.

I retain my theoretical idea that P. weraroa is at the root of this evolutionary lineage, it is likely to be the oldest surviving form of this group of wood decomposing Psilocybe.




Cool, why not Ps. allenii on that observation, doesnt look like subs at all....


Yes he is working hard on projects right now. But he will sequence quite a few of my collections including the subs to make sure...
Really interesting stuff.
Quote:

TimmiT said:
Quote:

Joust said:
Thats a pretty bold interpretation of that sentence. I would like to see a full segenced genome, its great that we can find this usless DNA and sort pretty well with it, but 100% of a tiny segment is not saying everything. At some point they will obviously have different base pairs and the genetics will show through that, so i understand, and understand the problems with full genome sequencing ect.



A full genome isn't necessary (or even very useful) to gain phylogenetic insights. Different regions of DNA mutate at different rates. A region that is highly conserved (acquires few mutations over time) will be more useful when looking at higher taxonomic ranks. Conversely, a region that acquires mutations more quickly (in evolutionary terms) will be more useful for looking at lower taxonomic ranks. One that mutates too slowly or too quickly isn't going to be very useful for phyolgenetics.

You are right that looking at one little segment of DNA gives limited taxonomic insight, but that improves when comparing multiple segments that have each been chosen because they are phylogenetically useful.



Oh yeah, im sure the Dr. have a pretty good reason for doing the way they do things. I think we are missing something though, maybe a whole other reigion of DNA we havent looked at. who knows, im not good with DNA yet. My sister in law is a genetic counselor and is pretty interested in genetics of mushies. SHe has been helping me understand whats it all means. I might invest in a biotech setup so i can prepare DNA for sequencing. Ive been saving up. That way all i have to do is mail in the dna.

Quote:

Lepkaun said:
Quote:

Joust said:
Quote:

Lepkaun said:
P. subaeruginosa has been found in the P.N.W. right?
So totally logical that P.cyanescens are found in Australia.
:sporedrop:Spores and myc be spreading everywhere.:sporedrop:



No. they were cultivated by Neo



All I was trying to say is it is not surprising to see different Psilocybe species being introduced or popping up in new regions of the world. For instance Neo propagated P.serbica and P.subaeruginosa.
Both which could adapt,mutate and escape into the myco flora of the P.N.W.like P.ovoids.
Sometime ago peeps (or the wind):shrug:brought P.cyanescens spores to Australia and they landed in the right environment. Just like us here in America we spread spores from Europe all the fuck over.






Toatally! NEO, Psylo, there are lots out there that cultivate rare species. Thats why i was thinking cult vrs any sort of natural presence,


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


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Offlinesuchen
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
    #19377597 - 01/06/14 02:56 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Joust said:
Oh yeah, im sure the Dr. have a pretty good reason for doing the way they do things. I think we are missing something though, maybe a whole other reigion of DNA we havent looked at. who knows, im not good with DNA yet.





To reiterate what Timmit said, the DNA sequences which scientists use to compare the "likeness" of two mushrooms (and plants, animals, etc.) have been very carefully chosen for the simple fact that they have been shown to take a massive amount of time to mutate even one or two base pairs. Scientists currently use small subunit rRNA, and DNA from the internal transcribed spacer (ITS; formerly known as "junk" DNA) because these regions are some of the most highly conserved stretches of genetic material in any organism.

Comparing sequences from less highly conserved regions of the two mushrooms' genetic codes can show a lot of variation because this genetic material has the annoying (yet extremely beneficial over the long run) habit of allowing all sorts of crazy rewrites. Having a fully sequenced genome would be useful in other ways though, no doubt.


--------------------
Rod Tulloss said:

The bulb is the bulb.

The volva is the volva.

They have a very long term realtionship, but they’re “just friends.”


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: suchen]
    #19379253 - 01/06/14 08:27 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

suchen said:
Quote:

Joust said:
Oh yeah, im sure the Dr. have a pretty good reason for doing the way they do things. I think we are missing something though, maybe a whole other reigion of DNA we havent looked at. who knows, im not good with DNA yet.





To reiterate what Timmit said, the DNA sequences which scientists use to compare the "likeness" of two mushrooms (and plants, animals, etc.) have been very carefully chosen for the simple fact that they have been shown to take a massive amount of time to mutate even one or two base pairs. Scientists currently use small subunit rRNA, and DNA from the internal transcribed spacer (ITS; formerly known as "junk" DNA) because these regions are some of the most highly conserved stretches of genetic material in any organism.

Comparing sequences from less highly conserved regions of the two mushrooms' genetic codes can show a lot of variation because this genetic material has the annoying (yet extremely beneficial over the long run) habit of allowing all sorts of crazy rewrites. Having a fully sequenced genome would be useful in other ways though, no doubt.



Thank you, that helps a lot
I dont deserve to be here :frown:


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


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InvisibleinskiM
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
    #19379974 - 01/06/14 10:46 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Joust said:
Alright lets see.
Sorry guys I had a bad day yesterday, didnt mean to be an ass... I wanted to be right for once... today lol

SO YES!

Cool, why not Ps. allenii on that observation, doesnt look like subs at all....





I didn't think you were being an ass, anyway.....
Yes, P. allenii for that observation, but note the date, it was still being called P. "cyanofriscosa" back then, the observer and a few others as far as I know were going to publish it as P. "turpis" which roughly translates as "the ugly Psilocybe", they don't like the genus...Alan beat them to it.
I always thought P. allenii was conspecific with P. subaeruginosa, in macroscopic form I see a great similarity and now with Jan's reply to your questions it seems he is considering the conspecificity of all of those species, P. azurescens, P. cyanescens, P. allenii all as varieties of P. subaeruginosa, a bit like the P. serbica complex, I will leave my suggestion of that name for that observation until further study is done, and maybe in the future all observations of the above mentioned species will need to be changed to P. subaeruginosa.

Also, you say the cultivated specimens you posted above are without a doubt P. subaeruginosa because they were grown from spores from Australia, how do you know the spores were not from P. cyanescens collected in Australia, if indeed they are separate species:shrug:


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: inski]
    #19380126 - 01/06/14 11:19 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

inski said:
Quote:

Joust said:
Alright lets see.
Sorry guys I had a bad day yesterday, didnt mean to be an ass... I wanted to be right for once... today lol

SO YES!

Cool, why not Ps. allenii on that observation, doesnt look like subs at all....





I didn't think you were being an ass, anyway.....
Yes, P. allenii for that observation, but note the date, it was still being called P. "cyanofriscosa" back then, the observer and a few others as far as I know were going to publish it as P. "turpis" which roughly translates as "the ugly Psilocybe", they don't like the genus...Alan beat them to it.
I always thought P. allenii was conspecific with P. subaeruginosa, in macroscopic form I see a great similarity and now with Jan's reply to your questions it seems he is considering the conspecificity of all of those species, P. azurescens, P. cyanescens, P. allenii all as varieties of P. subaeruginosa, a bit like the P. serbica complex, I will leave my suggestion of that name for that observation until further study is done, and maybe in the future all observations of the above mentioned species will need to be changed to P. subaeruginosa.

Also, you say the cultivated specimens you posted above are without a doubt P. subaeruginosa because they were grown from spores from Australia, how do you know the spores were not from P. cyanescens collected in Australia, if indeed they are separate species:shrug:



:header: haha i do not. though ive never seen such pronounced nipples on cyans.  This is ok though!! Jan will sequence soon i think. he seemed very interested in the collection. One way or another theyll get sequenced!


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe subaeruginosa? [Re: Joust]
    #19380752 - 01/07/14 02:57 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)
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Quote:

Joust said:
"It was a collection found growing in town, collected and kept in a herbarium. I have been thinking about this and concluded that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens likely represent forms of P. subaeruginosa and were introduced to North America. P. allenii might be also conspecific, who knows. More material for sequencing is needed from Australia."

He is just about the coolest ever..







That is certainly one way to look at the data.  Another way is perhaps P. subaeruginosa, P. cyanescens, P. azurescens and P. allenii evolved in Australia. 



A type collection of Psilocybe subaeruginosa was not designated by Cleland in 1927 when he described P. subaeruginosa, and in 1992 Chang and Mills designated a Lectotype.


Does not seem fair to group P. azurescens in with P. subaeruginosa when it is twice as strong, but the DNA analysis of the ITS gene implies that it is closer to P. subaeruginosa than it is to P. cyanescens or P. allenii.


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