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Invisibleabltsandwich
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: DieCommie]
    #19363451 - 01/03/14 01:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"micro" and "macro" evolution are creationist jargon?
Dude it's Greek prefixes attached to the front of words.
It happens ALL THE TIME in science, especially biology.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: abltsandwich]
    #19363455 - 01/03/14 01:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

abltsandwich said:
"micro" and "macro" evolution are creationist jargon?
Dude it's latin prefixes attached to the front of words.
It happens ALL THE TIME in science, especially biology.




Yea, so what?  That doesn't preclude them from being creationist jargon.  And being used in a biology text or science text doesn't preclude that either.  Its not exclusive to creationists, but it is creationist jargon.  90+% of the time you hear them brought up its by a creationist trying to deny speciation in evolution.  There is a distinction between the two, but not a meaningful one like the creationists insist there is.


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Invisibleabltsandwich
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: DieCommie]
    #19363459 - 01/03/14 01:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

They're logical terms to me and there's nothing in inherently "creationist" about them.  They're neutral words with accurate meanings in my opinion.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: abltsandwich]
    #19363463 - 01/03/14 01:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Google the phrases and see what kind of websites you get.  Listen to speakers on the subject and see which group uses the phrase more.  This is how jargon works.  No word is ever inherently anything...


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Invisibleabltsandwich
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: DieCommie]
    #19363472 - 01/03/14 01:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

They're neutral words that follow the rules of the English language.  I don't see your problem with them.
Other than "being creationist jargon" what is your problem with the verbiage?


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: DieCommie]
    #19363474 - 01/03/14 01:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
If Ptolemaic theory was not considered to be probably, it wouldn't have been the accepted theory for a millenium. It was impossible to conceive that Einsteins theory was probable because nobody conceived of it prior to its conception. That is abundantly clear. There is no need to resort to base name-calling unless you either lack substantive argumentation or are too lazy to engage in productive discussion. To say that something is "anti science crap" is redundant in light of the fact that you have already made it clear that you do not agree.




You dont know what you are talking about.  Ptolemic theory was good science, it was not ridiculous.  As a model it accurately described observations to a very high degree for hundreds of years.  Nobody conceived of Einsteins theory?  What about Lorentz and Poincare?  They very much conceived of it.  Calling it "Einstein's theory" is a tactic of science deniers.  Its not "Einstein's theory" in the same way that evolution is not "Darwin's Theory".  You are ignorant of basic science history, parrot creationist jargon and mischaracterize the realm of science.  Yes, you are promoting anti science crap.



I'm sorry, but the theory of special relativity was not conceived of until Albert Einstein published a falsifiable theory. There may have been others who conceived of ideas which were close to it and which enabled him to publish the paper. Each new and precise idea does not exist until it exists in its precise form.

I do not see how I am being "anti-science". I love science. I worked in a neuroscience laboratory during my undergraduate career. I do computational applied linguistics research that is based on scientific analysis of corpus data. Science is a wonderful method.

I also love the philosophical method. I am very careful to avoid using one method to draw conclusions in the other, which is what a scientist is doing when he addresses the question of the existence of God. That is all I am saying.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: DieCommie]
    #19363489 - 01/03/14 01:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:


I dont get it.  Why does where you learned of the terms make it interesting?  Did you learn them from a creationist?  It is creationist jargon.
http://www.discovercreation.org/newsletters/Macroevolutionvs.Microevolution.htm



No, I learned them from a self-professed atheistic physical anthropology professor with a PhD in physical anthropology. The distinction between these terms was made very clear in my physical anthropology textbook. This was at a secular university. Are you insinuating that Creationist jargon is now an important theoretical aspect of phyiscal anthropology? You seem to be quite sure of yourself, but I am not lying to you.


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363493 - 01/03/14 01:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

No, I am on the fence about the existence of supernatural causes.




There are 2 sides to the fence. One side is the supernatural causes you mentioned, the other side would be natural causes such as evolution. So yes, you are on the fence about evolution. I think you are the one with the comprehension problems.


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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19363504 - 01/03/14 01:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

No, I am on the fence about the existence of supernatural causes.




There are 2 sides to the fence. One side is the supernatural causes you mentioned, the other side would be natural causes such as evolution. So yes, you are on the fence about evolution. I think you are the one with the comprehension problems.



If you honestly believe that there are only two possibilities for human existence... well... you're not very creative, my friend.


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OfflineMisterSandman
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: qman]
    #19363508 - 01/03/14 01:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Magicman69 said:
It's not stupid at all. Evolution teaches the big bang as a fact, yet fails to answer the most fundamental question. How did the matter come into existence, if not by creation?




Evolution and the big bang are two separate issues.





:whathesaid:


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InvisibleRiderOnTheStorm
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363522 - 01/03/14 01:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
I didn't say don't teach either. I believe various important theories should be taught as theories which attempt to explain specific phenomena, with emphasis on their potential internal contradictions made clear during the instruction. This will allow for the theories to be refined and improved at a more efficient rate.




So at the beginning of a Bio 101 class you would presumably have professors spend a day or more discussing how time may be nonlinear, how aliens, artificial intelligence, or gods may have seeded life on earth, how despite forming over 20 amino acids in closed conditions the Urey-Miller experiment should not be taken at face value as evidence for abiogenesis since it didn't form DNA, and how it's possible that everything is all one big illusion and that macroevolution should be viewed skeptically because of that?

You don't see how this will likely only detract from learning, rather than bolstering it?

How do you refine theories of creationism? They consist of no substance to begin with.


--------------------


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363527 - 01/03/14 01:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

No, I am on the fence about the existence of supernatural causes.




There are 2 sides to the fence. One side is the supernatural causes you mentioned, the other side would be natural causes such as evolution. So yes, you are on the fence about evolution. I think you are the one with the comprehension problems.



If you honestly believe that there are only two possibilities for human existence... well... you're not very creative, my friend.




I never said there were only 2 possibilities. I said there were 2 sides of the fence, natural and supernatural. I gave evolution as an example. Again, I think you are the one with comprehension problems.

And let me ask you this, what other possibilities are there for the explanation of our existence besides creation or evolution?


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #19363533 - 01/03/14 01:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RiderOnTheStorm said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
I didn't say don't teach either. I believe various important theories should be taught as theories which attempt to explain specific phenomena, with emphasis on their potential internal contradictions made clear during the instruction. This will allow for the theories to be refined and improved at a more efficient rate.




So at the beginning of a Bio 101 class you would presumably have professors spend a day or more discussing how time may be nonlinear, how aliens, artificial intelligence, or gods may have seeded life on earth, how despite forming over 20 amino acids in closed conditions the Urey-Miller experiment should not be taken at face value as evidence for abiogenesis since it didn't form DNA, and how it's possible that everything is all one big illusion and that macroevolution should be viewed skeptically because of that?

You don't see how this will likely only detract from learning, rather than bolstering it?



It seems to me that you watch too much history channel and read too few scholarly journals. There is conflicting evidence among the theories that are already presented which has nothing to do with aliens or gods. By the way, it seems very unlikely that time is linear.


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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19363568 - 01/03/14 01:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:


I never said there were only 2 possibilities. I said there were 2 sides of the fence, natural and supernatural. I gave evolution as an example. Again, I think you are the one with comprehension problems.

And let me ask you this, what other possibilities are there for the explanation of our existence besides creation or evolution?



I see what you're saying. It seems that you are simply failing to realize that it is possible to have an attitude of simultaneously openness to various conflicting possibilities. I have stated I do not believe in supernatural causes, merely that I do not know whether or not they exist and that I would be willing to accept the existence of one given proof or equivalently compelling evidence.

I just had a thought. Are you under the impression that supernatural causes and natural causes are mutually exclusive? That would explain a lot of our failure to communicate. Keep in mind that in order for a fence to exist be a fence, both sides must exist. The existence of one side of the fence does not mean that the other side of the fence cannot exist; on the contrary, it implies the existence of the other side of the fence. But this is only a metaphor, we are not actually talking about fences.


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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363585 - 01/03/14 02:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:



How do you refine theories of creationism? They consist of no substance to begin with.



See the bottom of page 3 for a refined theory of creationism.


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InvisibleRiderOnTheStorm
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363592 - 01/03/14 02:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Nice ad hominem.

I cited specific studies concerning the topics at hand and you attack my knowledge base. I understand the arguments in favor of and against abiogenesis. I have a basic understanding of string theory, M theory and the differences between the quantum and material worlds. I've attended lectures regarding time and it's nonlinear nature. I included gods aliens and AI to satisfy your self proclaimed creativity and open mindedness, and to demonstrate the kind of conversation that would arise from your "various important theories" being brought up in a classroom setting. Rest assured, those theories are the ones that would be brought up in competition against evolution, not your circular alcoholics anonymous reasoning.

Pretend all you want, your anti-evolution rhetoric stems directly from religious dogma and is only supported by as much. I suspect that the only reason you stay on the fence, is to give yourself the illusion of being above those of us who keep our feet planted firmly on the ground.


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InvisibleConfucian
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363621 - 01/03/14 02:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
I have stated I do not believe in supernatural causes, merely that I do not know whether or not they exist and that I would be willing to accept the existence of one given proof or equivalently compelling evidence.




This has to be one of the most annoying "points" made by "agnostics."

Ya buddy, I'm not denying that a literal piece-of-shit-in-a-toilet orbits and is the baby god of our solar system. His Parents, two-giant-pieces-of-shit-in-two-large-toilets circle the Milky Way.

I don't believe it's true or not, but "merely that I do not know whether or not they exist and that I would be willing to accept the existence of one given proof"


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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #19363629 - 01/03/14 02:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RiderOnTheStorm said:
Nice ad hominem.

I cited specific studies concerning the topics at hand and you attack my knowledge base. I understand the arguments in favor of and against abiogenesis. I have a basic understanding of string theory, M theory and the differences between the quantum and material worlds. I've attended lectures regarding time and it's nonlinear nature. I included gods aliens and AI to satisfy your self proclaimed creativity and open mindedness, and to demonstrate the kind of conversation that would arise from your "various important theories" being brought up in a classroom setting. Rest assured, those theories are the ones that would be brought up in competition against evolution, not your circular alcoholics anonymous reasoning.

Pretend all you want, your anti-evolution rhetoric stems directly from religious dogma and is only supported by as much. I suspect that the only reason you stay on the fence, is to give yourself the illusion of being above those of us who keep our feet planted firmly on the ground.



I don't rest assured of that. I am an educator in higher learning and I know what processes go into the development of lesson plans. Talk of introducing aliens into evolutionary biology would get you laughed out of the profession. It's not like each teacher gets to make up what they want to teach. It's a collective decision making process. Serious evolutionary biologists and physical anthropologists are aware of what gaps and conflicts exist in the cumulative evidence gathered by professionals in their fields of study, and they could present them in class, which could (and I believe would) potentially inspire more students to take an interest in their studies.


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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363636 - 01/03/14 02:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


This has to be one of the most annoying "points" made by "agnostics."

Ya buddy, I'm not denying that a literal piece-of-shit-in-a-toilet orbits and is the baby god of our solar system. His Parents, two-giant-pieces-of-shit-in-two-large-toilets circle the Milky Way.

I don't believe it's true or not, but "merely that I do not know whether or not they exist and that I would be willing to accept the existence of one given proof"





I don't allow the reasoning that others use to arrive at their chosen perspectives to annoy me; I'm sorry that you do. It must be frustrating.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363679 - 01/03/14 02:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

No, I am on the fence about the existence of supernatural causes.




There are 2 sides to the fence. One side is the supernatural causes you mentioned, the other side would be natural causes such as evolution. So yes, you are on the fence about evolution. I think you are the one with the comprehension problems.



If you honestly believe that there are only two possibilities for human existence... well... you're not very creative, my friend.



Do you think there is more than one possibility for human existance? If so, please explain to me what it is. Thanks.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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