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GoOnThen
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Registered: 02/06/09
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: theMallacht]
#19370917 - 01/05/14 12:15 AM (10 years, 26 days ago) |
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I have eventually found some time to sit down and read this thread and post before it gets locked.
First off I would like to say that I have never said that I am a "Pro" grower or that I am one of the best. I am someone who enjoys growing cacti among many other plants and I am still learning all of the time. I have always posted the best of my plants/grafts and the worst this way I hope that at least it shows the highs and lows of what I do and that people can gain something from this. I am very time limited due to work and family commitments and so my setup has to be as easy care as possible. I realize that I don't need to explain all of this to most of the people here but Anne is not a normal EG member. I am also to old to have some smart arse treat me like a child I wont except it in the real world and I certainly wont except it here.
Ok down to the reason for this post. I have asked a number of times some questions that never get answered instead there are posts written on the "blog" that are ether not true or are slander towards the people on this forum.
Recently asked this
Quote: dirt garden weighs 3x, uses 2x electric, double heat, has all its dirt issues, and can only do about 60% capacity of PP5 cups in same a footprint 1.5x!
translation, team annie way= less space, way less weight, way less power, way less heat way more lophs .....+/- known max speeds.
How did you arrive at these claims. Dirt garden weighing 3 x your way : Is this based on 6 inch clay pots with one graft in each. Give us some real weights and sizes of your containers and weights with grafts and full water. Double electricity usage : What sort of total wattage are you using per square foot of grow area. Double heat: I don't see an issue with heat. It actually helps to have heat generated by your lights as you don't have to heat in winter. How many grafts are you growing per square foot and how do you change the water in the cups and you say you do this every ten days. Do you need to top them up in between.
I am all for innovation but claims about performance over other growing methods need to be backed up with facts other wise it is just a show not a grow.
The result was a typical Anne rant so I did my own calculations.
Anne,s As Anne doesn't give much info I had to do my own calculations which is only water weight and does not include container weights 1 pint jars half full = 240ml 12 x 240 = 2880ml = 2.88kg
Tray 4 deep 3 wide 4 x 3.9 = 15.6 inch = 396.24mm 3 x 3.9 = 11.7 inch = 297.18mm
4 grafts per container 12 containers per tray 12 x 4 = 48
Mine 1 x 50mm pot with hydrated soil 90grams Tray size 350mm x 300mm = 30 pots 30 x 90 = 2.7kg 4 trays per shelf = 120 pots per shelf ( shelf 1200 x 400 )
Now that is not 3 x as posted in the quote above
Next electricity : Again we don't know for certain what lights Anne is talking about as the recent pics show 4 over head lights but no flat panels. Anne's grow area from my calculations above is approximately 600mm x 400mm. I have no interest in wading through Led power usage but I would very much doubt that my 4 foot fluro' use double the power that the Anne setup uses as my two 37 watt fluros lights cover a 1200 x 400 shelf. If we take it one step further one of my shelving units uses 6 x 37 watt tubes so a total wattage of 222 watts covering an area of 1200mm x 1200mm. The other thing that is not taken into account is that shelving unit has a footprint of 1200mm x 400mm and a total height of 1830mm with one shelf used as storage so the area that I grow in is only 1450mm high for three shelves.
And lastly heat: This one is so simple I though Anne would get it but no she claims it is an expensive way to heat. The heat is fee !!!!!!!!! the lights produce it when they are on. My light keep my grow room at 25 deg C during winter and my room normally doesn't normally get above 45 deg C during summer. This in a small room/closet I have built inside of my shed.
I will be back with more but I have to partake in real life things at the moment.
Cheers Got
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GoOnThen
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: anne halonium]
#19371641 - 01/05/14 07:31 AM (10 years, 26 days ago) |
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The next installment.
Anne Quote its a better "grow show" than you gotz, if ya wanna reduce it to that. keep it up, and ill publish a series of pics, detailing fungi, dirt, PH , lighting issues, and root problems, and ill ask the readers to scan your threads for matching examples. and, thats entertianment.
As I have previously said I am not the one touting my self as the pere/graft messiah you can post whatever photos of mine that you want here. I have nothing to hide here is a link to my gallery Got's Gallery If you really want to go though my other stuff you will find me under the same user name at the corroberee. Here is the link http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?act=idx
Another Anne Quote *note your graft contest and loph growers unite thread. this grow was time stamped in front of your face. i got the pics, i got the rulers my shit is time stamped all over the web. ( were wise to that angle now goonthen, too late)
I have know idea what you are going on about. If you are saying I am posting old photos as new ones you are so far off its a joke.
This has to be the best one that you have come up with yet. I initially thought you have to be taking the piss but then you post it on you blog of untruths as fact. If a graft has been grown under ideal conditions it will look like the cactus it is supposed to be minus the roots. It doesn't grow parts of the root no matter how much you want to convince yourself and your followers. I can guarantee that you will not get any experienced grower to agree with your distorted view on this.

Questions that never get answered
Why don't you post photos of flowering grafts Why don't you post photos of grafts bigger than 30mm. If you have been so successful for so long you should have hundreds that are 50mm plus with multi heads How long have you been growing in these pint cups How long does it really take to change the water and clean the cups each time (the two trays or don't you know because you have only run it for a month or so) How many watts is the setup using with the two trays of cups Why do you continue to post photos of grafts from your old setup and not big healthy grafts from you new pint cup setup.
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: GoOnThen]
#19372086 - 01/05/14 10:02 AM (10 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
GoOnThen said: This has to be the best one that you have come up with yet. I initially thought you have to be taking the piss but then you post it on you blog of untruths as fact. If a graft has been grown under ideal conditions it will look like the cactus it is supposed to be minus the roots. It doesn't grow parts of the root no matter how much you want to convince yourself and your followers. I can guarantee that you will not get any experienced grower to agree with your distorted view on this.

Regarding that point, not all of what is underground in an old habitat or root-grown plant is root tissue. A substantial portion is actually stem. While it lacks chlorophyll as root tissue does because it's underground, it's still stem tissue. On Anne's diagram my guess at the root collar point for the habitat plant drawing would be a bit higher than where she marked the second line, but I see what she's saying.
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hookahhead
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: psi] 1
#19372160 - 01/05/14 10:22 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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I see what she is saying as well, but she is also still sadly mistaken. The "underground" stem grows like that due to the absence of light as you stated. So why would you expect it to grow like that in the presence of light? And etiolation is not just a term we toss around. The white growth at the tip is from EXTREME etiolation, not just moderate. Any plant grown in sub optimal lighting conditions will in an attempt to reach the light. Put some mature tricho's under floro, sure they'll grow and be green.. but the will also etiolate. Peyotes are not columnar. It is quite obvious, whether anyone cares to admit it or not, that her plants are stretched. This is not due to the fact she is bog-grafting, its due to light. If she would just grow some hydro graphs under "traditional" lighting methods, we would put this issue to rest. Sadly, while I feel we have been more than accommodating to her rants, she continues to ignore the tangible evidence we request. The only benefit that I can see to growing stretched plants like this, is the extra space between ribs would make it easier to take cuttings of. However, even with 5 or 6 grafted seedlings, you will have plenty of pups to keep you busy.
The team Annie difference misconception: (yes these are my own pictures)

Second, if she is that concerned about air bubbles destroying her micro root hairs, id seriously love to know how she changes the water without inflicting more damage. Ignoring oxygen for a second, because the plant has other ways to deal with that. Why does she continue to ignore MICRONUTRIENTS, besides stupidity and stubbornness?
-------------------- "My worm farm" "96 Gallon Worm Tote" "Let Your Freak Flag Fly" "Respect Your Roots" "A KNEW IDEA"
"Nothing New" "Willkommen im EthnoGarten" "Don't Be a Backeberg" "Mites and Mealy Bugs" "The Heart and the Sun"
If someone doesn't want your LIGHT, shine it some where else. Everyday there are people who LOVE, ACCEPT, and LOOK FORWARD to making CONTACT with you. YOU are capable of GREAT THINGS even if you feel neglected or mistreated in OUR current SPACE. Change your ways, change our WORLD, there is SAFTEY in NUMBERS. Welcome to the PRESENT. ~ 144,000 Anonymous Voices “Call it a clan, call it a network, call it a tribe, call it a family: Whatever you call it, whoever you are, you need one. [NOW]” - Jane Howard
Edited by hookahhead (01/05/14 10:39 AM)
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: hookahhead]
#19372266 - 01/05/14 10:44 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Most of the definitions of etoliation that I've seen are closer to what you describe as extreme etoliation (i.e. extremely pale yellow to white growth from chlorosis.) I don't believe it's technically correct to refer to green but skinnier than normal plants in this way. Personally I prefer to grow them fat though.
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hookahhead
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: psi]
#19372286 - 01/05/14 10:49 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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etiolation: A pathological condition of plants that grow in places that provide insufficient light, as under stones. It is characterized by elongated stems and pale color due to lack of chlorophyll.
Seriously, your trying to disqualify me on a technicality? They don't simply grow taller and skinnier because they feel like it, it is because they are not receiving adequate light. Once proper lighting is provided, they quickly start to fatten up again. Because we don't grow under rocks sufficient lighting vs optimal lighting is what were discussing here.. not the absence vs presence of light.
  
-------------------- "My worm farm" "96 Gallon Worm Tote" "Let Your Freak Flag Fly" "Respect Your Roots" "A KNEW IDEA"
"Nothing New" "Willkommen im EthnoGarten" "Don't Be a Backeberg" "Mites and Mealy Bugs" "The Heart and the Sun"
If someone doesn't want your LIGHT, shine it some where else. Everyday there are people who LOVE, ACCEPT, and LOOK FORWARD to making CONTACT with you. YOU are capable of GREAT THINGS even if you feel neglected or mistreated in OUR current SPACE. Change your ways, change our WORLD, there is SAFTEY in NUMBERS. Welcome to the PRESENT. ~ 144,000 Anonymous Voices “Call it a clan, call it a network, call it a tribe, call it a family: Whatever you call it, whoever you are, you need one. [NOW]” - Jane Howard
Edited by hookahhead (01/05/14 11:06 AM)
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Corporal Kielbasa


Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: psi]
#19372359 - 01/05/14 11:06 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Good morning yal
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: hookahhead]
#19372490 - 01/05/14 11:41 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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"Pale" is pretty vague but numerous different definitions I've seen refer to a near-total lack of chlorophyll with pale yellow to white growth. Anne's plants are definitely skinnier than many people grow them but I don't think they exhibit a lack of chlorophyll. Etoliation is a potentially life-threating condition, but suboptimal lighting conditions are mostly an aesthetic problem. Some will think it's ugly but the plant is putting on mass and is not super vulnerable to mechanical damage like truly etoliated growth is. Blue-red balance is a big factor in shape too apparently, overall amount of light is not the only factor.
Here are some pics of my own plants under 6500K T8 with some side sunlight, fat but a fairly limy green compared to full-sunlight grown plants.

Outside over the summer they went a lot darker.

Here they are back under T8 and off the grafts the next fall, still pretty dark:

IMO T8 is a good solid choice, they are very cheap and moderately efficient. Sunlight is great but in some places it's a legal risk to have them outside. LED I have not used but my impression is that you have to spend quite a lot to get decent power. Going blue heavy apparently helps if you want fat growth (as in the fluorescent world where higher color temps are supposed to help this.)
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hookahhead
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: psi]
#19372512 - 01/05/14 11:46 AM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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The problem you are referring to is the one you are already familiar with, chlorosis. It would not make sense for a plant to not produce any chlorophyl in the presence of light, since this is how the plant gains it's energy. The reason chlorosis is potentially deadly, is simply because the plant will expend all of its stored energy putting on new growth in hopes of eventually reaching the light. Because shades can vary from plant to plant, it is kind of mute to get hung up on this. What I am trying to point out is that I believe her plants are stretched. Would you prefer I go back and change "etiolatiated" to "stretched"?
I agree with you that it is spectrum + strength that causes this. From what I can see, her current lighting setup not providing optimal conditions. We all agree that her specimen are atypical, correct? Yet she still believes this abnormal growth is due to the potential of bog grafts.
In a real scientific scenario, we need a baseline to compare to. Therefore, it would be ideal to see bog grafts under "traditional" lighting, and LED, as well as dirt grafts in the same lighting conditions. This is how you assess which variables are actually responsible for your results. Until this evidence is provided (by her or us), her wild claims are psuedo-science at best.
As myself and others have pointed out numerous times, she refuses to answer legitimate questions and questionably seems to lack photo evidence of the forest of peyotes.
Nice pics by the way :thumb up:
-------------------- "My worm farm" "96 Gallon Worm Tote" "Let Your Freak Flag Fly" "Respect Your Roots" "A KNEW IDEA"
"Nothing New" "Willkommen im EthnoGarten" "Don't Be a Backeberg" "Mites and Mealy Bugs" "The Heart and the Sun"
If someone doesn't want your LIGHT, shine it some where else. Everyday there are people who LOVE, ACCEPT, and LOOK FORWARD to making CONTACT with you. YOU are capable of GREAT THINGS even if you feel neglected or mistreated in OUR current SPACE. Change your ways, change our WORLD, there is SAFTEY in NUMBERS. Welcome to the PRESENT. ~ 144,000 Anonymous Voices “Call it a clan, call it a network, call it a tribe, call it a family: Whatever you call it, whoever you are, you need one. [NOW]” - Jane Howard
Edited by hookahhead (01/05/14 12:16 PM)
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psi
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: hookahhead]
#19372712 - 01/05/14 12:31 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Yeah stretched or elongated compared to sunlight grown plants as a reference point seems fair. I guess what I'm saying is that whether it's something to care about is largely a matter of personal preference. Some find the appearance of spherical pereskiopsis grafts to be repulsive compared to root-grown plants, but it certainly serves a purpose in the propagation toolkit. Similarly plant tissue culture looks ugly as fuck to many people. Personally I've more or less given up on growing conventionally attractive Trichocereus without pinch points, over the winter it's too warm inside and far too cold outside to get them properly dormant. They still increase in size every year though and I'm happy with that.
Red-heavy strong light may produce rapid and fairly healthy but relatively elongated growth, and as the grower that may or may not be appealing to you. Not-so-strong light will produce similar shaped growth not quite as rapidly, but above a certain threshold the plants will still be reasonably healthy and resilient. From a kWh to biomass efficiency standpoint it may be attractive to use such lighting regimens though, I do not have the relevant experience and data to say. I have seen photos of Anne's plants elsewhere that were grown under blue heavy light and had very flat tops, and I have seen pics from other LED growers that don't look stretched either, so I believe Anne's assertions that pretty much any desired shape can be produced under LED.
LED lighting is attractive to me in some ways because it has the potential for great efficiency since you can target specific light frequencies. You don't have to waste energy making e.g. green light that will just be mostly reflected anyway. The cost still seems to be quite high though and I have very little spare money to put down on equipment to experiment with it.
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hookahhead
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: psi]
#19372763 - 01/05/14 12:42 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Psi, your posts are educated and respectful, thank you. I am not debating the potential of either LED or "hydro" grafting and would love to see more work. What I find hard to swallow is that she believes that she has some new age super technique, but can't seem to support any of her claims. If there is even a moderate increase in efficiency, I'd love to know about it. Do her stretched plants really have more biomass? From my observations, I don't believe so. If you check out her pictures, she uses pups and provides a time frame of 75 days from grafting. Yet I have grafted seedlings that are larger and more developed than hers in the same time frame? I have a hard time wrapping my head around that one, because I know grafted pups explode. If she TRUELY wants to quell the nay-sayers, a few simple tests would suffice.
The experienced growers who chimed in were simply expressing their concerns and questions. This was met with abrasion. If one is seeking peak performance, then why not address simple but serious limitations? Sadly, I feel as though she is actually hindering her pursuits with her CURRENT method. She absolutely cannot debate that her plants don't need other nutrients besides NPK. If there are LED grows that are not elongated, her lighting is obviously subpar.
As far as over-wintering large columnars, I believe water is more critical than temperature or light. Now this is only my theory/understanding of the issue, but cacti are essentially water balloons. A water balloon can not stretch unless more water is added to it. Cacti are great at retaining water and energy, as can be seen by neglecting a cutting for over a year, and it will still root. In low light periods, they will elongate to reach the sun. This is natural because they obviously do not want to be shaded out by others for the valuable energy from the sun. Because they do have a good bit of stored energy, and moderate water supply.. they etiolate to try to get out of unfavorable conditions. The lack of chlorophyl is to preserve precious energy until the time is right. However, if your cacti is already limited in water, it will not continue to grow from the apical meristem, but instead use that energy towards root development to seek water. Again this is just my hypothesis, but I feel that it is at least reasonable. The reason we like to avoid elongation is not entirely ascetic, but structural as well.
Matthew 7:24-27 ESV
“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
-------------------- "My worm farm" "96 Gallon Worm Tote" "Let Your Freak Flag Fly" "Respect Your Roots" "A KNEW IDEA"
"Nothing New" "Willkommen im EthnoGarten" "Don't Be a Backeberg" "Mites and Mealy Bugs" "The Heart and the Sun"
If someone doesn't want your LIGHT, shine it some where else. Everyday there are people who LOVE, ACCEPT, and LOOK FORWARD to making CONTACT with you. YOU are capable of GREAT THINGS even if you feel neglected or mistreated in OUR current SPACE. Change your ways, change our WORLD, there is SAFTEY in NUMBERS. Welcome to the PRESENT. ~ 144,000 Anonymous Voices “Call it a clan, call it a network, call it a tribe, call it a family: Whatever you call it, whoever you are, you need one. [NOW]” - Jane Howard
Edited by hookahhead (01/05/14 01:27 PM)
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: hookahhead]
#19372994 - 01/05/14 01:25 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Yeah she is not the most diplomatic about responding to criticism, and often lately she is on the defensive because people bring up beefs from other threads and other sites. I hope that dies down because I like having her around and things are supposed to stay pretty civil in the EG. Her personality tends towards hyping things up and self-promotion (IMO this enthusiasm is part of the fun of reading her stuff) but really she is giving an example of one way to grow, and everyone's methods are going to have some shortcomings.
The micronutrient and aeration questions are valid though IMO. From a growth rate perspective both seem like pretty painless ways to remove potential limiting factors.
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anne halonium
jaguarette



Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: psi]
#19373085 - 01/05/14 01:44 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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when the argument fails, attack annies diplomacy. its written on a stone somewhere.
peeps seem to forget, i grew on dirt for yrs and yrs, indoors and out. under flouro and sun , blah blah blah. even up till a decade ago, we were still doing this.

i know the diff in all types of lophs from experience. hell i was hunting wild ones in the 70's
there is a REASON i developed XHTTL and its variants. im humored, my detractors use indoor teks, that i abandoned a decade ago, for better methods, and they are trying to re- sell me on it.
right now im kicking back, and watching the leaves curl in a grafters grow......i know why, and it aint light.
my point is simple, how much charm do ya need when ya have experience?
XHTTL, it works. annie endorsed..........

in the new age,
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Edited by anne halonium (01/05/14 01:46 PM)
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hookahhead
Planeteer



Registered: 01/10/11
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: anne halonium] 1
#19373121 - 01/05/14 01:50 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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When reasonable questions are raised, side step them and claim your still the best. annie endorsed..........
Quote:
anne halonium said:
right now im kicking back, and watching the leaves curl in a grafters grow......i know why, and it aint light.

in the new age,
So your solution is to only use leafless perskiopsis sticks? Trust me, greater photosynthetic area is never a bad thing. I agree it isn't light, it's water and/or nutrient. The scion pulls from these reserves when it's needs are not met entirely. I have also noticed leaves can sustain damage from spines, and typically do not recover.
Edited by hookahhead (01/05/14 02:16 PM)
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: hookahhead]
#19373259 - 01/05/14 02:28 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
hookahhead said: The reason we like to avoid elongation is not entirely ascetic, but structural as well.
True with columnars for sure, as a pinch point is a potential break point. From a biomass perspective (for grafting stock or consumption purposes) all is not lost though, since the top portion can just be re-rooted. I would say it's a lot more of a non-issue with peyote since old stem growth tends to eventually become buried anyway when they are on their own roots. The "burrowing" effect during drought periods is pretty cool for this.
I think watering too late in the year may indeed be part of my problem with Trichocereus. Unfortunately this year I'm getting some rot with them.
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anne halonium
jaguarette



Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: hookahhead]
#19373296 - 01/05/14 02:38 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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actually, those are the pre 'x aerophora" clones. their ultimate use, requires no leaves.
normally, i have plenty of non curling leaves.

im just throwing this tek up as a time marker , for a much more advanced tek coming up.
scanned some of your grow stuff hookah looks like your using 2-3x the energy , and 2x the space, for about 1/10 the head of cattle per acre as i do.
i will give ya this though, your garden looks healthier than goonthens.
as for trichocereus, we did various types of hydro clones, including the first hydro TBM's , just mostly to test em. it works........
we decided it wasnt practical for indoors.

cant see using the time , space , power for them. expert outdoor ones are plentiful if ya have friends.
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KBG1977
Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 11,017
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: anne halonium]
#19373369 - 01/05/14 02:55 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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What!
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anne halonium
jaguarette



Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: KBG1977]
#19373407 - 01/05/14 03:04 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
KBG1977 said: What!

thats why i consider psi one of the best growers here.
he sets new standards for the age of the uber growers.
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KBG1977
Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 11,017
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: anne halonium]
#19373416 - 01/05/14 03:07 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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Yeah,that's Impressive,to say the least
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anne halonium
jaguarette



Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: As George Bernard Shaw once said [Re: KBG1977]
#19373451 - 01/05/14 03:19 PM (10 years, 25 days ago) |
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ya , psi proves the point with T-8 and dirt systems fer sure..... but keep in mind, he has a high skill level, and understands dirt dynamics and light distance/ color/ power.
good head footprint density also.
the key is garden engineering. and clearly, he gets superior croppage, far beyond, what others with similar set ups get. proving also, skill AND equip, makes the difference.
my faith in humanity, and the future of the grow, is restored.
for the next few seconds.......
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Edited by anne halonium (01/05/14 03:22 PM)
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