Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12  [ show all ]
OfflinemindOmy
Philosopher Cubensis
Male


Registered: 06/26/13
Posts: 181
Loc: MilkyWayGalaxy
Last seen: 7 months, 28 days
‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum
    #19361256 - 01/02/14 11:09 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Bill Nye “The Science Guy” is scheduled to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham next month.

The former children’s television host and outspoken critic of creationist teaching will discuss whether the Bible-based version of Earth’s origins is a viable model Feb. 4 at the museum in Petersburg, Kentucky.

The debate starts at 7 p.m., and tickets will cost $25.

Ham, the president and CEO of Answers in Genesis, said he was excited to face off against Nye.

“It’s quite rare these days for such a well-known evolutionist to publicly debate a creationist – so we do expect a lot of media interest,” Ham said on his Facebook page.

But not everyone is thrilled by the idea.

Matt Young, blogging at The Panda’s Thumb, urged Nye to reconsider his participation, saying that it legitimized creationism.

“There is nothing to debate, and a ‘debate’ with Mr. Nye will only give Mr. Ham credibility that he does not deserve and increase not only his visibility but also his ability to attract investors,” Young wrote.

The blogger noted the example of Holocaust scholar Deborah Lipstadt, who has said she refuses to participate in events with Holocaust deniers.


“I sometimes bowdlerize that to ‘I do not debate liars,’ and it is a policy I recommend to anyone who is tempted to ‘debate’ a creationist,” Young wrote. “Whether you win or lose, you will convince no one and will only add to the prominence of your opponent, who can now say, ‘See, I debated a prominent scientist; I must be taken seriously now.’”





www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/01/02/science-guy-bill-nye-plans-to-debate-creation-museum-founder-ken-ham/?_nospa=true


--------------------


Plato’s Allegory of the Cave



Edited by mindOmy (01/02/14 11:10 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: mindOmy] * 5
    #19361272 - 01/02/14 11:14 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

dumb. whenever a "scientist" wastes time addressing the existence or nonexistence of god [s]he instantly loses so much respect in my eyes. just do science. people who believe in god arent going to watch that shit and change their mind


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibletealeaf
Just Touch It
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/21/06
Posts: 2,907
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19361292 - 01/02/14 11:19 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

so Matt is mad because two intelligent people want to sit down and have a conversation? bro, im sure you could learn something by going to that show.

even if science ultimately proves evolutionism to be true, faith is still solely and uniquely individualized that regardless of science, people will still choose to believe what they want.

this will have a hell of a lot more relevancy than any political debate:learyharvard:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: tealeaf]
    #19361317 - 01/02/14 11:25 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

if "science" wants to "prove" anything, it hasn't been paying attention

as if science were a conscious being, lol


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSet
candy colored clown
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 6,383
Loc: right near da beach Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: mindOmy] * 3
    #19361318 - 01/02/14 11:25 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Nye is a brilliant dude and great at debates.

I see the point that by participating Nye is allowing credence to a point that is already moot.  However, from all of the interviews I've heard by him (and growing up on "Bill Nye, the Science Guy") the man has a ton of patience and loves to teach. 

After all, the guy who mesmerized my mind with science when I was an ADD kindergartener is pretty much the perfect guy to address that crowd.  :lol:


--------------------
    classic LOVELINE


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibletealeaf
Just Touch It
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/21/06
Posts: 2,907
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Set]
    #19361329 - 01/02/14 11:31 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

alright fine, "the sciences"; physics, mathematics, ecology, zoology.....

its a real drag on this site when vocabulary mistakes are called out and take the place of intelligent commentary, we should just keep rapping with each other instead of trapping each other:thumbup:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSet
candy colored clown
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 6,383
Loc: right near da beach Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19361341 - 01/02/14 11:33 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
dumb. whenever a "scientist" wastes time addressing the existence or nonexistence of god [s]he instantly loses so much respect in my eyes. just do science.



I totally see what you're saying, but I don't think addressing the existence or nonexistence of a creator is going to be the point.  It's definitely an implication though, haha.

Nye's point most likely won't touch on whether or not a god or creator exists, but rather that our current understanding of evolution is a model that has scientific merit.


--------------------
    classic LOVELINE


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibletealeaf
Just Touch It
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/21/06
Posts: 2,907
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Set]
    #19361351 - 01/02/14 11:37 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

and where do ancient aliens fit into all this?

:ancientaliens: throw this guy in to the round table and we got ourselves a debacle


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: tealeaf] * 2
    #19361362 - 01/02/14 11:41 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

tealeaf said:
alright fine, "the sciences"; physics, mathematics, ecology, zoology.....

its a real drag on this site when vocabulary mistakes are called out and take the place of intelligent commentary, we should just keep rapping with each other instead of trapping each other:thumbup:



the sciences still cannot prove anything. proofs are done in formal logic and mathematics. science has a method for testing hypotheses via experimentation. the results of an experiment can only fail to disprove a hypothesis.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19361428 - 01/02/14 11:55 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

I wonder if it will be streamed live?


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSet
candy colored clown
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 6,383
Loc: right near da beach Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19361432 - 01/02/14 11:56 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Yeah.

Science is simply a way of testing things.  It doesn't "prove" anything, it only strengthens our understanding of the world around us through successful repetition. 

Through the scientific method we'll continue to learn more about our origins, the universe, and our place in the universe as long as we don't blow ourselves up first.


--------------------
    classic LOVELINE


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePolk_Audio3
Moon Cricket
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/16/09
Posts: 7,163
Loc: Amsterdam
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Set] * 2
    #19361433 - 01/02/14 11:56 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Bill bill bill bill......


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: mindOmy]
    #19361950 - 01/03/14 02:55 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Good for Bill, at $25 a head if he gets half the gate it might even become a travelling show depending if they good enough crowds. Its no different than putting on a show but without the expense of hiring an acting troop. I always knew Bill Nye was brilliant and this move proves it!


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19361957 - 01/03/14 03:01 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Should Evolution Be Taught in School? Dumbest Miss USA Answers! :lol:



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 16,712
Last seen: 12 hours, 39 minutes
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 5
    #19361960 - 01/03/14 03:05 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
dumb. whenever a "scientist" wastes time addressing the existence or nonexistence of god [s]he instantly loses so much respect in my eyes. just do science. people who believe in god arent going to watch that shit and change their mind





Relax.  It's just a debate.


--------------------
:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 16,712
Last seen: 12 hours, 39 minutes
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19361963 - 01/03/14 03:06 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Good for Bill, at $25 a head if he gets half the gate it might even become a travelling show depending if they good enough crowds. Its no different than putting on a show but without the expense of hiring an acting troop. I always knew Bill Nye was brilliant and this move proves it!





Sup Ellis Dee. 
:cool:



:datass:


And I agree with your post


--------------------
:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19361964 - 01/03/14 03:07 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
dumb. whenever a "scientist" wastes time addressing the existence or nonexistence of god [s]he instantly loses so much respect in my eyes. just do science. people who believe in god arent going to watch that shit and change their mind




People who believe in God won't change their mind, but people who are on the fence about the subject, or people who are open-minded and don't believe one way or the other will definitely be persuaded by evolution.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #19361972 - 01/03/14 03:10 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
dumb. whenever a "scientist" wastes time addressing the existence or nonexistence of god [s]he instantly loses so much respect in my eyes. just do science. people who believe in god arent going to watch that shit and change their mind




People who believe in God won't change their mind, but people who are on the fence about the subject, or people who are open-minded and don't believe one way or the other will definitely be persuaded by evolution.



I am open-minded and on the fence and am not "definitely persuaded by evolution" :rolleyes:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #19361978 - 01/03/14 03:12 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Not much, its snowy and I'm about to get the newspaper.

Yeah, it seems like a business saavy decision for Bill to me, he's a materialist scientist and he wants a cut of that materialist gate. Other materialist scientists will end up with less material than Bill, so he's really the bigger materialist. hahaha Maybe next he'll write a book debunking evolution for young people. I bet it would make the best seller list as the creationists buy it like its a Passion of the Christ video and then he could be an even bigger materialist. lololol


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 16,712
Last seen: 12 hours, 39 minutes
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19361979 - 01/03/14 03:13 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Ya, evolution seems fishy to me.
Some how only one species has evolved to the skill level that humans have.....  and that species is the humans.
HMMMMMM.


--------------------
:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 3
    #19361987 - 01/03/14 03:17 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
I am open-minded and on the fence and am not "definitely persuaded by evolution" :rolleyes:




That's because you haven't heard the arguments.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19361992 - 01/03/14 03:19 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

I personally think this debate is in dire need of happening. When I attended a Baptist school, they taught us "creation." And let me tell you, they use VERY CONVINCING TACTICS to try to get people to believe their BS. They cite people with "PhD's" and use all sorts of "scientific evidence" to make it seem like evolution is a farce. It wasn't until I read the people that completely discredited and obliterated the creationist arguments, that I realized what a load of baloney all that was.

I think that everybody who has been taught creation needs to view the evolutionist perspective in debate, so that it exposes creationists for what they truly are: fraudulent liars and scheme artists!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake] * 1
    #19361994 - 01/03/14 03:19 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Skill level of humans? We're blithering apes intent on denying the fact that we're animals at all. All that clothes wearing and hair shaving and social laws and religion and what we call science with all those hydrogen bombs and striped minty toothpaste and all the other rediculous stuff humans do, ya know. Its absurd really, that we think we're special at all.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19361995 - 01/03/14 03:19 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
I am open-minded and on the fence and am not "definitely persuaded by evolution" :rolleyes:




That's because you haven't heard the arguments.



:rofl::suicide: you've gotta be fucking kidding me. What is your degree in, again? Business? Get the fuck out of here. Your statement is so blatantly outrageous that I am not even going to waste one smidgeon of my time actually debating it with you. I'm just going to make fun of you in this post for being ignorant as fuck. Normally you seem pretty intelligent but holy shit, what a load. I'm going to sleep. PEACE


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 6
    #19361997 - 01/03/14 03:20 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
:rofl::suicide: you've gotta be fucking kidding me. What is your degree in, again? Business? Get the fuck out of here. Your statement is so blatantly outrageous that I am not even going to waste one smidgeon of my time actually debating it with you. I'm just going to make fun of you in this post for being ignorant as fuck. Normally you seem pretty intelligent but holy shit, what a load. I'm going to sleep. PEACE




Butthurt much? What are you, PMSing? I don't even know what it is you are angry about. :lol: You seem like a guy with an inferiority complex, for blowing such a small comment out of proportion and taking it to heart. "Boohoo I'm smarty pants, you stupid, boohoo!" WAAAHAHHAAHA


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 16,712
Last seen: 12 hours, 39 minutes
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19362002 - 01/03/14 03:24 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Skill level of humans? We're blithering apes intent on denying the fact that we're animals at all. All that clothes wearing and hair shaving and social laws and religion and what we call science with all those hydrogen bombs and striped minty toothpaste and all the other rediculous stuff humans do, ya know. Its absurd really, that we think we're special at all.





Well, I have to disagree with you on this one, D-money.
We are special because we know how to love.


--------------------
:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #19362011 - 01/03/14 03:28 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Skill level of humans? We're blithering apes intent on denying the fact that we're animals at all. All that clothes wearing and hair shaving and social laws and religion and what we call science with all those hydrogen bombs and striped minty toothpaste and all the other rediculous stuff humans do, ya know. Its absurd really, that we think we're special at all.





Well, I have to disagree with you on this one, D-money.
We are special because we know how to love.




Animals such as chimps and gorillas and other primates, even dogs and cats know how to love. Anybody who has spent time with animals would know that they are well-capable of love.

I can show you tons of examples where animals have shown empathy. For example, the cat that adopted an orphaned puppy:




Or the loyal dog that refused to leave his dying friend behind during the Japanese tsunami:




There are also stories of dolphins that have saved surfers from sharks. Tell me that animals aren't capable of love and empathy. They are.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #19362017 - 01/03/14 03:30 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

>>>>>>We are special because we know how to love.

How is that special or unique to humans?

/Eyes tight shut and keep repeating humans are nifty.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 16,712
Last seen: 12 hours, 39 minutes
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19362021 - 01/03/14 03:31 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

I agree!
Cats, dogs, elephants, dolphins, and any other animal capable of love are special organisms, which are organised into a different class of being, in my opinion.


--------------------
:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #19362031 - 01/03/14 03:36 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
I agree!
Cats, dogs, elephants, dolphins, and any other animal capable of love are special organisms, which are organised into a different class of being, in my opinion.




You know, I love eating exotic animals, but there are 4 animals that I find it absolutely wrong to eat. That is dogs, dolphins, primates, and elephants. Those animals are particularly intelligent and probably feel pain and suffering on a much higher level than say, a fish or a chicken. They probably suffer intensely, not just from being slaughtered themselves, but from having their family slaughtered as well.

What really pisses me off though is that stupid documentary that demonized Japanese people for killing and eat dolphins, when in reality it's only ONE tiny village in Japan that has ever eaten dolphins. :bored:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 16,712
Last seen: 12 hours, 39 minutes
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19362032 - 01/03/14 03:37 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
>>>>>>We are special because we know how to love.

How is that special or unique to humans?

/Eyes tight shut and keep repeating humans are nifty.





I didn't say it was unique to humans!
I'm saying we can't forget that we are special because we love.
If you forget that then you turn into a meanie.
And no one likes a meanie.


--------------------
:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


Edited by lifeiswhatyoumake (01/03/14 03:38 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 16,712
Last seen: 12 hours, 39 minutes
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19362035 - 01/03/14 03:42 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
I agree!
Cats, dogs, elephants, dolphins, and any other animal capable of love are special organisms, which are organised into a different class of being, in my opinion.




You know, I love eating exotic animals, but there are 4 animals that I find it absolutely wrong to eat. That is dogs, dolphins, primates, and elephants. Those animals are particularly intelligent and probably feel pain and suffering on a much higher level than say, a fish or a chicken. They probably suffer intensely, not just from being slaughtered themselves, but from having their family slaughtered as well.




I haven't tried eating an exotic animal befo, I think.
But I agree with you in that I don't want to eat an animal that is intelligent, if I have the option not to.



Quote:

Crystal G said:
What really pisses me off though is that stupid documentary that demonized Japanese people for killing and eat dolphins, when in reality it's only ONE tiny village in Japan that has ever eaten dolphins. :bored:




I haven't seen that documentary.
But it is a disgrace to shame the whole Japaneses people for that if it truly is just one lil village.


--------------------
:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


Edited by lifeiswhatyoumake (01/03/14 03:43 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSet
candy colored clown
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 6,383
Loc: right near da beach Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19362043 - 01/03/14 03:55 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
What really pisses me off though is that stupid documentary that demonized Japanese people for killing and eat dolphins, when in reality it's only ONE tiny village in Japan that has ever eaten dolphins. :bored:



Well good thing I couldn't find that clip from The Cove I was looking for, with the surfer describing a dolphin head-butting a shark which may have saved him and/or one of his buddies from being Jaws'd. :ohnowaitokay:

Your description of the documentary and Japanese dolphin-consumption is off-base though.  I'll leave that for another thread, possibly occurring soon.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #19362050 - 01/03/14 04:02 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Set said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
What really pisses me off though is that stupid documentary that demonized Japanese people for killing and eat dolphins, when in reality it's only ONE tiny village in Japan that has ever eaten dolphins. :bored:



Well good thing I couldn't find that clip from The Cove I was looking for, with the surfer describing a dolphin head-butting a shark to save him and his buddies. :ohnowaitokay:

Your description of the documentary and Japanese dolphin-consumption is off-base though.  I'll leave that for another thread, possibly occurring soon.




There is only one region of Japan that consumes dolphins. Japanese people have consumed whales throughout history yes, but NOT dolphins. Did they actually mention in the Cove that it is only the Taiji village that ever consumes dolphin?

Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:

I haven't tried eating an exotic animal befo, I think.
But I agree with you in that I don't want to eat an animal that is intelligent, if I have the option not to.




I love exotic game. Venison, rabbit, quail, snake, frogs, snails, wild boar, lion... if it's wild, I love to eat it. I might even try dog or dolphin or monkey brains ONE TIME, and ONE TIME ONLY, if it's put in front of me. But I would probably feel terrible while eating it, and I would probably never want to do it ever again.

Quote:

Crystal G said:
I haven't seen that documentary.
But it is a disgrace to shame the whole Japaneses people for that if it truly is just one lil village.




It's called The Cove. Here's a clip from it:



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSet
candy colored clown
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 6,383
Loc: right near da beach Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #19362072 - 01/03/14 04:22 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
There is only one region of Japan that consumes dolphins.



OK...I disagree but I'll bite :resignednonacceptance:

Quote:

Did they actually mention in the Cove that it is only the Taiji village that ever consumes dolphin?



No...that was kinda part of the point.

I don't really understand where this is going, and at risk of derailing this thread I'm going to abandon ship.

See you in the dolphin thread, in the future. :cookiemonster:


--------------------
    classic LOVELINE


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 16,712
Last seen: 12 hours, 39 minutes
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Set]
    #19362083 - 01/03/14 04:30 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Idk what's going on lol


--------------------
:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Set]
    #19362084 - 01/03/14 04:32 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Set said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
There is only one region of Japan that consumes dolphins.



OK...I disagree but I'll bite :resignednonacceptance:

Quote:

Did they actually mention in the Cove that it is only the Taiji village that ever consumes dolphin?



No...that was kinda part of the point.

I don't really understand where this is going, and at risk of derailing this thread I'm going to abandon ship.

See you in the dolphin thread, in the future. :cookiemonster:




I am from Japan. My relatives are all from Japan. I've asked them about the dolphin slaughter in Japan after watching the cove. They all said it is only one village in Japan that eats dolphin. Nobody else does it. And nobody eats whales often anymore, because frankly whales don't taste good. I've eaten it, and it tastes like really fatty pork, except it doesn't taste as good as pork. It's just blubber.

If you care to elaborate who else in Japan eats dolphin, I'd be glad to know about it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSet
candy colored clown
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 6,383
Loc: right near da beach Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19362097 - 01/03/14 04:48 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
If you care to elaborate who else in Japan eats dolphin, I'd be glad to know about it.



My host brother mentioned it when I lived with his family in Yokohama.

Unfortunately this was way before "The Cove", and I cared more about trying to find really good looking Japanese girls (there were ~7, the internet lied) than giving a fuck about cetaceans as a food source.

edit:  not to mention, rewatch the documentary and the reactions of Japanese people when they're told of the Taiji stuff.  They're appalled.  A point made by that film is that dolphin meat is sold as meat from larger cetaceans.  The consumer doesn't know.  Proven when they did the genetic testing of whale meat from different market sources.


--------------------
    classic LOVELINE


Edited by Set (01/03/14 04:53 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Set]
    #19362109 - 01/03/14 05:10 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Set said:
Unfortunately this was way before "The Cove", and I cared more about trying to find really good looking Japanese girls (there were ~7, the internet lied) than giving a fuck about cetaceans as a food source.




You didn't think Japanese girls are good looking? There are tons that are way, wayyyy better looking than me all around Tokyo.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSet
candy colored clown
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 6,383
Loc: right near da beach Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19362120 - 01/03/14 05:18 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Set said:
Unfortunately this was way before "The Cove", and I cared more about trying to find really good looking Japanese girls (there were ~7, the internet lied) than giving a fuck about cetaceans as a food source.




You didn't think Japanese girls are good looking? There are tons that are way, wayyyy better looking than me all around Tokyo.



Well then you'll have to post a pic to prove it :snub:

Actually I loved the Japanese girls that I met.  My host brother was like a Japanese Zach Morris (we were 16) so he brought some tail. 

I guess the problem was the smiles.  Haggard teeth with Japanese girls.  Japan doesn't have the orthodontic considerations that the USA has.

Tokyo was awesome but I actually met one of the best looking girls I've ever met in my life while walking the beach in Yokohama.

She was a surfer, probably ~20, and completely beautiful.  Nice teeth too.  I still think about her...



--------------------
    classic LOVELINE


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Set]
    #19362169 - 01/03/14 05:56 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Set said:
Well then you'll have to post a pic to prove it :snub:

Actually I loved the Japanese girls that I met.  My host brother was like a Japanese Zach Morris (we were 16) so he brought some tail. 

I guess the problem was the smiles.  Haggard teeth with Japanese girls.  Japan doesn't have the orthodontic considerations that the USA has.

Tokyo was awesome but I actually met one of the best looking girls I've ever met in my life while walking the beach in Yokohama.

She was a surfer, probably ~20, and completely beautiful.  Nice teeth too.  I still think about her...






Ohhhh, the reason that you didn't find Japanese girls attractive is because you went when you were 16. In Japan, high schools completely prohibit girls from wearing any makeup. That is why Japanese girls look completely ordinary, until they turn around age 18-20. That is the age they start dressing up, doing their hair, and putting on makeup, and they start becoming really beautiful women.

These days I think native Japanese women are much, much more beautiful than Asian women in America.

I'm kind of weird, but I personally love crooked teeth. I think it looks adorable. I love British and Japanese teeth, I think the crooked teeth makes them look super cute.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19362178 - 01/03/14 06:00 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

These are the types of typical Japanese girls I see in Tokyo;



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShins
Fun guy
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: mindOmy]
    #19362194 - 01/03/14 06:10 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Bill Nye's a douche.  Hes not even a real scientist he's a children's entertainer....


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19362397 - 01/03/14 08:16 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
:rofl::suicide: you've gotta be fucking kidding me. What is your degree in, again? Business? Get the fuck out of here. Your statement is so blatantly outrageous that I am not even going to waste one smidgeon of my time actually debating it with you. I'm just going to make fun of you in this post for being ignorant as fuck. Normally you seem pretty intelligent but holy shit, what a load. I'm going to sleep. PEACE




Butthurt much? What are you, PMSing? I don't even know what it is you are angry about. :lol: You seem like a guy with an inferiority complex, for blowing such a small comment out of proportion and taking it to heart. "Boohoo I'm smarty pants, you stupid, boohoo!" WAAAHAHHAAHA



Uh no, you are are just making WAY too drastic of an assumption. Newsflash: I happen to be an EXTREMELY well-read individual who is definitely familiar with MANY of the atheist arguments that come out the theory of evolution, though I'm not sure which ones you're referring to when you say "the arguments". Normally I am very soft-spoken, but do you have any idea how arrogant it is to assume that if someone believes in God, it means they aren't familiar with the arguments for evolution? Do you have any idea how many Christian biologists there are? My sponsor in AA actually happens to be an evolutionary Biology professor (that is why I chose him, because I was having a hard time with the fact that the steps essentially call for divine intervention, yet that is his profession and he is able to work the program) and is definitely NOT an atheist. I'm not trying to be a smartypants, you're the one you thinks you're a smartypants and makes outrageous assumptions because of it.

What kind of books did you read that led you to believe these kinds of things anyway? Dawkins?


Edited by morrowasted (01/03/14 08:22 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsi
TOAST N' JAM
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613 Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19362471 - 01/03/14 08:50 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Why don't you elaborate on what your own position is then, because it's becoming difficult to follow what exactly you're arguing about at this point.

One thing this Ken Ham dude writes about is how portions of Darwin's writings laid the foundations for "scientific" racism. I think that's somewhat of a fair point on it's own, but it's neither here nor there in terms of modern evolutionary theory. I think a lot of creationists attack Darwin's work because it's simpler than addressing more recent thought on the topic. They are also used to thinking in dogmatic terms, so perhaps they honestly believe that evolutionary theory sees Darwin's writings as being set in stone.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: psi]
    #19362512 - 01/03/14 09:07 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

My position is simple.I believe that there are many truths of which I am unaware.

Don't get me wrong, natural selection makes near-perfect sense, and microevolution almost certainly is happening, and certain macrovolutionary processes have also happened, if we assume that time is actually moving in the direction our perceptual experiences leads us to believe it is moving.

I do not see how those things in any way imply anything whatsoever about the possible existence or nonexistence of supernatural powers with interventionary wills, however.

It seems to me that perhaps people who lack creativity get confused because they think that belief in such powers is limited to religious traditions. It's as though they look at things this way: People only saw religious explanations for the existence of man until a certain point, and now that there is one possible alternative explanation, we should just accept it, reject all concepts that appear within explanatory hypotheses of religious origin, and fail to consider any other possible alternatives, or even any concept which shares its name but differs from it in essential qualitative respects which might render it plausible.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMisterSandman
Neo Nazi
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/23/13
Posts: 2,936
Loc: Meth
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19362592 - 01/03/14 09:42 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

I have a feeling this is how the debate is going to go.....



--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsi
TOAST N' JAM
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613 Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19362621 - 01/03/14 09:52 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
My position is simple.I believe that there are many truths of which I am unaware.

Don't get me wrong, natural selection makes near-perfect sense, and microevolution almost certainly is happening, and certain macrovolutionary processes have also happened, if we assume that time is actually moving in the direction our perceptual experiences leads us to believe it is moving.

I do not see how those things in any way imply anything whatsoever about the possible existence or nonexistence of supernatural powers with interventionary wills, however.

It seems to me that perhaps people who lack creativity get confused because they think that belief in such powers is limited to religious traditions. It's as though they look at things this way: People only saw religious explanations for the existence of man until a certain point, and now that there is one possible alternative explanation, we should just accept it, reject all concepts that appear within explanatory hypotheses of religious origin, and fail to consider any other possible alternatives, or even any concept which shares its name but differs from it in essential qualitative respects which might render it plausible.




I would say I agree with the bulk of that. Personally I doubt that Nye's intent is to try to demonstrate the nonexistence of God as you implied earlier in the thread though. His area of interest is science and he wants to debate with a guy who claims that young earth creationism is scientifically valid.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19362712 - 01/03/14 10:21 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
My position is simple.I believe that there are many truths of which I am unaware.

Don't get me wrong, natural selection makes near-perfect sense, and microevolution almost certainly is happening, and certain macrovolutionary processes have also happened, if we assume that time is actually moving in the direction our perceptual experiences leads us to believe it is moving.

I do not see how those things in any way imply anything whatsoever about the possible existence or nonexistence of supernatural powers with interventionary wills, however.

It seems to me that perhaps people who lack creativity get confused because they think that belief in such powers is limited to religious traditions.




Its not a lack of creativity, thats how the gods have been defined.  Jumping through logical hoops to define a new god of the gaps is not being creative, its a post hoc defense mechanism.  When new evidence comes out, the possible realm of god has to be redefined and every time its redefined smaller and smaller. 

Appealing to the possibility of supernatural powers is appealing to a possibility in spite of evidence, not a probability supported by evidence.  Considering probabilities promotes wisdom, considering possibilities promotes ignorance.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #19363102 - 01/03/14 12:02 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

People only saw religious explanations for the existence of man until a certain point, and now that there is one possible alternative explanation, we should just accept it, reject all concepts that appear within explanatory hypotheses of religious origin, and fail to consider any other possible alternatives,





The bible is full of scientific fallacies. Why would I want to believe in writings that are thousands of years old and have no scientific merit. If god was so powerful and all-knowing, you would think he would be a little more accurate with the scientific aspects  . . .


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa Flag
Last seen: 1 hour, 9 minutes
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19363110 - 01/03/14 12:05 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

I'm gonna watch this debate just to see the ridiculous argument that Ham guy has to offer.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: DieCommie]
    #19363176 - 01/03/14 12:22 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:

Its not a lack of creativity, thats how the gods have been defined.  Jumping through logical hoops to define a new god of the gaps is not being creative, its a post hoc defense mechanism.  When new evidence comes out, the possible realm of god has to be redefined and every time its redefined smaller and smaller. 

Appealing to the possibility of supernatural powers is appealing to a possibility in spite of evidence, not a probability supported by evidence.  Considering probabilities promotes wisdom, considering possibilities promotes ignorance.



No it doesn't. Do you think Einstein's theory of relativity was considered to be probable until he conceived of it. Just because you consider possibilites doesn't mean you accept them. It's an attitude of open-mindedness. Looking at things that are supposedly "probably true" and assuming that they are true is has led to innumerable beliefs that are now considered to be ridiculous. See Ptolemaic astronomy for one simple example.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19363184 - 01/03/14 12:23 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

People only saw religious explanations for the existence of man until a certain point, and now that there is one possible alternative explanation, we should just accept it, reject all concepts that appear within explanatory hypotheses of religious origin, and fail to consider any other possible alternatives,





The bible is full of scientific fallacies. Why would I want to believe in writings that are thousands of years old and have no scientific merit. If god was so powerful and all-knowing, you would think he would be a little more accurate with the scientific aspects  . . .


You are talking about a Biblical deity. I have already stated that I am not.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363201 - 01/03/14 12:28 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

You are talking about the bible however, which was allegedly transcribed from god (a deity)


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleabltsandwich
JFK = Jelly Donut
Female User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/16/09
Posts: 11,537
Loc: Dildoville Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Patlal]
    #19363207 - 01/03/14 12:29 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Y'all are all missing the point.  No one is going to watch this debate when Duck Dynasty and Honey BooBoo are showing on other channels.  This science shit is getting out of hand.  We're much better pacifists when we're distracted by irrelevance..


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19363212 - 01/03/14 12:30 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
You are talking about the bible however, which was allegedly transcribed from god (a deity)



Practice your reading comprehension

Quote:

It seems to me that perhaps people who lack creativity get confused because they think that belief in such powers is limited to religious traditions. It's as though they look at things this way: People only saw religious explanations for the existence of man until a certain point, and now that there is one possible alternative explanation, we should just accept it, reject all concepts that appear within explanatory hypotheses of religious origin, and fail to consider any other possible alternatives, or even any concept which shares its name but differs from it in essential qualitative respects which might render it plausible.




I am not trying to debate whether or not the God of the Bible has anything to do with the existence of man. I am stating that belief in supernatural causes for man's existence are not limited to religious paradigms.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363257 - 01/03/14 12:43 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
You are talking about the bible however, which was allegedly transcribed from god (a deity)



Practice your reading comprehension

My reading comprehension is fine. And I was not just referring t o that one single post. And in the following post you are definitely talking about belief in a biblical god:


Quote:

Normally I am very soft-spoken, but do you have any idea how arrogant it is to assume that if someone believes in God, it means they aren't familiar with the arguments for evolution? Do you have any idea how many Christian biologists there are? My sponsor in AA actually happens to be an evolutionary Biology professor (that is why I chose him, because I was having a hard time with the fact that the steps essentially call for divine intervention, yet that is his profession and he is able to work the program) and is definitely NOT an atheist.




Your arguments are pretty vague and you do not make it very clear what you are in fact trying to argue. My mistake if I got the impression that you do in fact believe in god, but that is what I got out of you posts in this thread.


I am curious to know what are other supernatural beliefs in the causes for mans existence that do not have to do with religion and are not completely outdated?


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRiderOnTheStorm
Reject thug culture
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 1,855
Loc: Hug a hippie today
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363273 - 01/03/14 12:47 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
I am open-minded and on the fence and am not "definitely persuaded by evolution" :rolleyes:




Quote:

morrowasted said:
Don't get me wrong, natural selection makes near-perfect sense, and microevolution almost certainly is happening, and certain macrovolutionary processes have also happened, if we assume that time is actually moving in the direction our perceptual experiences leads us to believe it is moving.




Really? Certainly sounds like you found the arguments persuasive to me. Nobody is saying that you should take scientific theory as dogma, only that we shouldn't have to take your dogma as scientific theory.

Nye is going to talk about what he always talks about, that children attending school do not need to be taught your speculations about what deities may or may not exist, or what role they may have played in the processes of evolution.

Evolution is a well formed theory with loads of evidence backing it up from a wide range of sciences. There is an overwhelming consensus on how the pieces fit together and there's an overwhelmingly coherent curriculum for teaching it.

Creationism is a poorly formed dogma with absolutely no empirical evidence supporting it from any one of the sciences. There is little to no consensus on what pieces can be jammed where and the curriculum surrounding it is religious texts. The entire thing can be summed up in one sentence, "We don't really know anything for sure so it must have been god."

The two do not belong side by side in schools, this is a well documented passion of Dr. Nye's and it's what anybody reasonable would expect from this debate.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineThe Vapor
Lost In A Tea Daze


Registered: 03/22/10
Posts: 8,433
Loc: Misty Mountains, B.C. Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363289 - 01/03/14 12:52 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
dumb. whenever a "scientist" wastes time addressing the existence or nonexistence of god [s]he instantly loses so much respect in my eyes. just do science. people who believe in god arent going to watch that shit and change their mind




I don't know if you have quotation around scientist because you don't think he is a legitimate scientist or what, but he graduated from Cornell with a BSc (where one of his professors was Carl Sagan). He then went on to be a mechanical engineer at Boeing. His specialty might not necessarily be the topic being debated, but I'm sure he is a learned guy.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19363295 - 01/03/14 12:53 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

It's pretty sad to me that people read my posts and say things like:

Quote:

I got the impression that you do in fact believe in god, but that is what I got out of you posts in this thread.






Quote:

I am curious to know what are other supernatural beliefs in the causes for mans existence that do not have to do with religion and are not completely outdated?




Quote:

My position is simple.I believe that there are many truths of which I am unaware.




If I am unaware of the supernatural causes, then I cannot tell you what they are. I simply take the position that they could exist. However, if you really want to press me, I could argue that free will is itself a supernatural cause and could be responsible for man's existence. Here is my response to Step Two of the 12 steps, in which I was asked to envision for myself a Higher Power which could restore me to sanity:

Quote:

I am an agnostic in the strict sense of the word. Gnosis means "mystical or spiritual knowledge" and the prefix A- means "without". I take this even further, I assume the position of epistemic skepticism, which means I believe that I have no knowledge of the outside world whatsoever; instead, I continually form beliefs in response to environment stimuli which have varying levels of efficacy. The level of efficacy generally determines whether a given belief is discarded or retained for future employment.

I currently believe that there are many powers greater than myself to which I am subjected on a constant basis. Scientists have attempted to describe many of these powers in terms of laws and principles, primarily in the areas of physics and chemistry, but have as yet failed to do so with predictive precision, as evidenced by the probabilistic nature of calculations performed at the quantum level. If we assume a linear system of causal connection (A -> B -> C -> D rather than A -> B; A -> C; A -> D or something else), this appears to imply that there is(/are) some element(s) missing from their metaphysical descriptions which is(/are) nevertheless inextricably bound to it(/them). Let us call one of these elements "free will". Let us suppose a dichotomy between the quantifiable (i.e. physical/material) world and free will, and assume a causal feedback connection between the two such that free will is primary and the quantifiable is secondary.

Though the language is perhaps burdensome, it seems to me that what falls out of this system is actually a type of Creationism. It appears to me that Creation is an ongoing, as-yet incomplete and never-to-be completed process which results from the interaction between free will and that which is quantifiable. I suspect that perceptual experiences place "boundary-limits" on free will relative to that which is quantifiable, resulting in what we might call a "co-Creative" process, in which the recipients of perceptual experiences may collaborate in order to increase the relative complexity of the quantifiable portion of the system. This means that originally there was perception, then there was the quantifiable, then there was a casual feedback connection between the two, which has been increasing in complexity ever since. It seems to me that this process most closely though not precisely depicted Chapter 42 of the Tao Te Ching,

Tao produces one
One produces two
Two produce three
Three produce myriad things
Myriad things, backed by yin and embracing yang
Achieve harmony by integrating their energy

Gordon Globus perhaps comes closest to scientifically documenting the interaction between mind and matter according to the views I have just outlined in his paper "Quantum Consciousness is Cybernetic".




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMagicman69
All About the Benjamins
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 6,876
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363316 - 01/03/14 12:59 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Matter can not be created from nothing. If the big bang theory is correct (and I have serious doubts) what created the matter that started the bang? Something created this matter. God. Maybe not the god in the bible, but IMO, there was some sort of design to the universe in the beginning.


Edited by Magicman69 (01/03/14 01:00 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #19363323 - 01/03/14 01:01 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:



Really? Certainly sounds like you found the arguments persuasive to me. Nobody is saying that you should take scientific theory as dogma, only that we shouldn't have to take your dogma as scientific theory.

Nye is going to talk about what he always talks about, that children attending school do not need to be taught your speculations about what deities may or may not exist, or what role they may have played in the processes of evolution.

Evolution is a well formed theory with loads of evidence backing it up from a wide range of sciences. There is an overwhelming consensus on how the pieces fit together and there's an overwhelmingly coherent curriculum for teaching it.

Creationism is a poorly formed dogma with absolutely no empirical evidence supporting it from any one of the sciences. There is little to no consensus on what pieces can be jammed where and the curriculum surrounding it is religious texts. The entire thing can be summed up in one sentence, "We don't really know anything for sure so it must have been god."

The two do not belong side by side in schools, this is a well documented passion of Dr. Nye's and it's what anybody reasonable would expect from this debate.



Evolutionary theory should be taught; however, more attention should be given to its possible flaws. Children should not be taught that it is almost certain our human exist is a result of a macroevolutionary process that began with "inorganic matter".


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Magicman69] * 1
    #19363327 - 01/03/14 01:02 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Magicman69 said:
Matter can not be created from nothing. If the big bang theory is correct (and I have serious doubts) what created the matter that started the bang? Something created this matter. God. Maybe not the god in the bible, but IMO, there was some sort of design to the universe in the beginning.



This is a silly argument because it leads to infinite regress.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: The Vapor]
    #19363339 - 01/03/14 01:05 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

The Vapor said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
dumb. whenever a "scientist" wastes time addressing the existence or nonexistence of god [s]he instantly loses so much respect in my eyes. just do science. people who believe in god arent going to watch that shit and change their mind




I don't know if you have quotation around scientist because you don't think he is a legitimate scientist or what, but he graduated from Cornell with a BSc (where one of his professors was Carl Sagan). He then went on to be a mechanical engineer at Boeing. His specialty might not necessarily be the topic being debated, but I'm sure he is a learned guy.



I am talking about any individuals who do this sort of thing, not Bill Nye. And I do believe that, when one is discussing the topic of the supernatural, one cannot at that moment be called a scientist. One may be a Scientist by profession, but at that moment one is not practicing science. It is metaphyiscal philosophy.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleConfucian
...
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 1,741
Loc: USA Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363342 - 01/03/14 01:06 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
dumb. whenever a "scientist" wastes time addressing the existence or nonexistence of god [s]he instantly loses so much respect in my eyes. just do science. people who believe in god arent going to watch that shit and change their mind




People who believe in God won't change their mind, but people who are on the fence about the subject, or people who are open-minded and don't believe one way or the other will definitely be persuaded by evolution.



I am open-minded and on the fence and am not "definitely persuaded by evolution" :rolleyes:




You are on the fence on whether or not evolution is true? LOL. :loldongs:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMagicman69
All About the Benjamins
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 6,876
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Confucian] * 1
    #19363347 - 01/03/14 01:07 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

It's not stupid at all. Evolution teaches the big bang as a fact, yet fails to answer the most fundamental question. How did the matter come into existence, if not by creation?


Edited by Magicman69 (01/03/14 01:10 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Confucian]
    #19363360 - 01/03/14 01:09 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Confucian said:


You are on the fence on whether or not evolution is true? LOL. :loldongs:



More reading comprehension problems. No, I am on the fence about the existence of supernatural causes. Microevolution can be demonstrated with fruit flies in the comfort of your own home; macroevolution is evident in archeological and geological evidence.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363381 - 01/03/14 01:13 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:

Its not a lack of creativity, thats how the gods have been defined.  Jumping through logical hoops to define a new god of the gaps is not being creative, its a post hoc defense mechanism.  When new evidence comes out, the possible realm of god has to be redefined and every time its redefined smaller and smaller. 

Appealing to the possibility of supernatural powers is appealing to a possibility in spite of evidence, not a probability supported by evidence.  Considering probabilities promotes wisdom, considering possibilities promotes ignorance.



No it doesn't. Do you think Einstein's theory of relativity was considered to be probable until he conceived of it. Just because you consider possibilites doesn't mean you accept them. It's an attitude of open-mindedness. Looking at things that are supposedly "probably true" and assuming that they are true is has led to innumerable beliefs that are now considered to be ridiculous. See Ptolemaic astronomy for one simple example.




Nope.  Einstein's theory was considered probable and ptolemaic astronomy was not and is not ridiculous.  This is typical anti science crap.  Nobody says that you have to consider probabilities to be true, that is more anti science crap.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Magicman69]
    #19363385 - 01/03/14 01:13 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Magicman69 said:
It's not stupid at all. Evolution teaches the big bang as a fact, yet fails to answer the most fundamental question. How did the matter come into existence?



And your theory fails to address the question of how God came into existence. This is typically explained away by simply defining God as Autogenes; self-created, but Creationists fail to realize that materialists can simply say the same thing about matter at T1, the "beginning of time." Which to me is almost a silly idea in and of itself.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleConfucian
...
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 1,741
Loc: USA Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363389 - 01/03/14 01:15 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

Confucian said:


You are on the fence on whether or not evolution is true? LOL. :loldongs:



More reading comprehension problems. No, I am on the fence about the existence of supernatural causes. Microevolution can be demonstrated with fruit flies in the comfort of your own home; macroevolution is evident in archeological and geological evidence.




You think some Big Huge Tall Super Alien Dude/Chick Thing is sitting on his fat ass somewhere creating and destroying universes, galaxies, stars, solar systems, and planets. :goodluckwiththat:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 day, 23 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Magicman69] * 1
    #19363395 - 01/03/14 01:16 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Magicman69 said:
It's not stupid at all. Evolution teaches the big bang as a fact, yet fails to answer the most fundamental question. How did the matter come into existence, if not by creation?




Evolution and the big bang are two separate issues.

"How did the matter come into existence" 

No one knows, that doesn't mean we should make up answers and call it truth.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRiderOnTheStorm
Reject thug culture
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 1,855
Loc: Hug a hippie today
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363398 - 01/03/14 01:16 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Evolutionary theory should be taught; however, more attention should be given to its possible flaws. Children should not be taught that it is almost certain our human exist is a result of a macroevolutionary process that began with "inorganic matter".




There's more evidence pointing towards that than there is towards some kind of cybernetic cosmic consciousness placing the first few organic cells into our oceans, so why not teach it until we have a better answer?

The creationists say, "Both should be taught in schools with equal time devoted to each."

The logical say, "Don't teach religion in science classes, save it for Sunday school."

You pesky agnostics say, "Don't teach either unless they are 100% proven," but also, "Nothing can be 100% proven."


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363400 - 01/03/14 01:17 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Microevolution can be demonstrated with fruit flies in the comfort of your own home; macroevolution is evident in archeological and geological evidence.




The distinction between the two is only important to creationists.  They created the distinction in one of their many post hoc defense mechanisms.  You are using creationist jargon.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMe_Roy
Stranger
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 3,230
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19363404 - 01/03/14 01:17 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
I am from Japan. My relatives are all from Japan. I've asked them about the dolphin slaughter in Japan after watching the cove. They all said it is only one village in Japan that eats dolphin. Nobody else does it. And nobody eats whales often anymore, because frankly whales don't taste good. I've eaten it, and it tastes like really fatty pork, except it doesn't taste as good as pork. It's just blubber.

If you care to elaborate who else in Japan eats dolphin, I'd be glad to know about it.




Jeezus, your argument is weak.

First you supply the anecdote that everyone you've talked to in Japan says that only people from one village eat dolphin.

Then you say that no one eats whale anymore.

Then you say that you yourself have eaten whale...

...as if the shift from something being available to a peon like you (or me for that matter) and being available to no one at all would happen overnight.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: DieCommie]
    #19363405 - 01/03/14 01:18 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:

Its not a lack of creativity, thats how the gods have been defined.  Jumping through logical hoops to define a new god of the gaps is not being creative, its a post hoc defense mechanism.  When new evidence comes out, the possible realm of god has to be redefined and every time its redefined smaller and smaller. 

Appealing to the possibility of supernatural powers is appealing to a possibility in spite of evidence, not a probability supported by evidence.  Considering probabilities promotes wisdom, considering possibilities promotes ignorance.



No it doesn't. Do you think Einstein's theory of relativity was considered to be probable until he conceived of it. Just because you consider possibilites doesn't mean you accept them. It's an attitude of open-mindedness. Looking at things that are supposedly "probably true" and assuming that they are true is has led to innumerable beliefs that are now considered to be ridiculous. See Ptolemaic astronomy for one simple example.




Nope.  Einstein's theory was considered probable and ptolemaic astronomy was not and is not ridiculous.  This is typical anti science crap.  Nobody says that you have to consider probabilities to be true, that is more anti science crap.



If Ptolemaic theory was not considered to be probably, it wouldn't have been the accepted theory for a millenium. It was impossible to conceive that Einsteins theory was probable because nobody conceived of it prior to its conception. That is abundantly clear. There is no need to resort to base name-calling unless you either lack substantive argumentation or are too lazy to engage in productive discussion. To say that something is "anti science crap" is redundant in light of the fact that you have already made it clear that you do not agree.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Confucian]
    #19363417 - 01/03/14 01:20 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Confucian said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

Confucian said:


You are on the fence on whether or not evolution is true? LOL. :loldongs:



More reading comprehension problems. No, I am on the fence about the existence of supernatural causes. Microevolution can be demonstrated with fruit flies in the comfort of your own home; macroevolution is evident in archeological and geological evidence.




You think some Big Huge Tall Super Alien Dude/Chick Thing is sitting on his fat ass somewhere creating and destroying universes, galaxies, stars, solar systems, and planets. :goodluckwiththat:



I presented one possible supernatural cause at the bottom of page 3, and I believe you will find that it is more involved and elaborate than the one you have presented. I do not, however, accept it as true simply because I have presented it. This is a process that comes easily to me.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: DieCommie]
    #19363423 - 01/03/14 01:21 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Microevolution can be demonstrated with fruit flies in the comfort of your own home; macroevolution is evident in archeological and geological evidence.




The distinction between the two is only important to creationists.  They created the distinction in one of their many post hoc defense mechanisms.  You are using creationist jargon.



Interesting, because I learned this terminology in my physical anthropology class.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #19363427 - 01/03/14 01:22 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
If Ptolemaic theory was not considered to be probably, it wouldn't have been the accepted theory for a millenium. It was impossible to conceive that Einsteins theory was probable because nobody conceived of it prior to its conception. That is abundantly clear. There is no need to resort to base name-calling unless you either lack substantive argumentation or are too lazy to engage in productive discussion. To say that something is "anti science crap" is redundant in light of the fact that you have already made it clear that you do not agree.




You dont know what you are talking about.  Ptolemic theory was good science, it was not ridiculous.  As a model it accurately described observations to a very high degree for hundreds of years.  Nobody conceived of Einsteins theory?  What about Lorentz and Poincare?  They very much conceived of it.  Calling it "Einstein's theory" is a tactic of science deniers.  Its not "Einstein's theory" in the same way that evolution is not "Darwin's Theory".  You are ignorant of basic science history, parrot creationist jargon and mischaracterize the realm of science.  Yes, you are promoting anti science crap.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #19363435 - 01/03/14 01:25 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

RiderOnTheStorm said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Evolutionary theory should be taught; however, more attention should be given to its possible flaws. Children should not be taught that it is almost certain our human exist is a result of a macroevolutionary process that began with "inorganic matter".




There's more evidence pointing towards that than there is towards some kind of cybernetic cosmic consciousness placing the first few organic cells into our oceans, so why not teach it until we have a better answer?

The creationists say, "Both should be taught in schools with equal time devoted to each."

The logical say, "Don't teach religion in science classes, save it for Sunday school."

You pesky agnostics say, "Don't teach either unless they are 100% proven," but also, "Nothing can be 100% proven."



I didn't say don't teach either. I believe various important theories should be taught as theories which attempt to explain specific phenomena, with emphasis on their potential internal contradictions made clear during the instruction. This will allow for the theories to be refined and improved at a more efficient rate.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363443 - 01/03/14 01:26 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Microevolution can be demonstrated with fruit flies in the comfort of your own home; macroevolution is evident in archeological and geological evidence.




The distinction between the two is only important to creationists.  They created the distinction in one of their many post hoc defense mechanisms.  You are using creationist jargon.



Interesting, because I learned this terminology in my physical anthropology class.




I dont get it.  Why does where you learned of the terms make it interesting?  Did you learn them from a creationist?  It is creationist jargon.
http://www.discovercreation.org/newsletters/Macroevolutionvs.Microevolution.htm


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleabltsandwich
JFK = Jelly Donut
Female User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/16/09
Posts: 11,537
Loc: Dildoville Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: DieCommie]
    #19363451 - 01/03/14 01:28 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

"micro" and "macro" evolution are creationist jargon?
Dude it's Greek prefixes attached to the front of words.
It happens ALL THE TIME in science, especially biology.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: abltsandwich]
    #19363455 - 01/03/14 01:29 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

abltsandwich said:
"micro" and "macro" evolution are creationist jargon?
Dude it's latin prefixes attached to the front of words.
It happens ALL THE TIME in science, especially biology.




Yea, so what?  That doesn't preclude them from being creationist jargon.  And being used in a biology text or science text doesn't preclude that either.  Its not exclusive to creationists, but it is creationist jargon.  90+% of the time you hear them brought up its by a creationist trying to deny speciation in evolution.  There is a distinction between the two, but not a meaningful one like the creationists insist there is.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleabltsandwich
JFK = Jelly Donut
Female User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/16/09
Posts: 11,537
Loc: Dildoville Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: DieCommie]
    #19363459 - 01/03/14 01:31 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

They're logical terms to me and there's nothing in inherently "creationist" about them.  They're neutral words with accurate meanings in my opinion.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: abltsandwich]
    #19363463 - 01/03/14 01:32 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Google the phrases and see what kind of websites you get.  Listen to speakers on the subject and see which group uses the phrase more.  This is how jargon works.  No word is ever inherently anything...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleabltsandwich
JFK = Jelly Donut
Female User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/16/09
Posts: 11,537
Loc: Dildoville Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: DieCommie]
    #19363472 - 01/03/14 01:35 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

They're neutral words that follow the rules of the English language.  I don't see your problem with them.
Other than "being creationist jargon" what is your problem with the verbiage?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: DieCommie]
    #19363474 - 01/03/14 01:35 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
If Ptolemaic theory was not considered to be probably, it wouldn't have been the accepted theory for a millenium. It was impossible to conceive that Einsteins theory was probable because nobody conceived of it prior to its conception. That is abundantly clear. There is no need to resort to base name-calling unless you either lack substantive argumentation or are too lazy to engage in productive discussion. To say that something is "anti science crap" is redundant in light of the fact that you have already made it clear that you do not agree.




You dont know what you are talking about.  Ptolemic theory was good science, it was not ridiculous.  As a model it accurately described observations to a very high degree for hundreds of years.  Nobody conceived of Einsteins theory?  What about Lorentz and Poincare?  They very much conceived of it.  Calling it "Einstein's theory" is a tactic of science deniers.  Its not "Einstein's theory" in the same way that evolution is not "Darwin's Theory".  You are ignorant of basic science history, parrot creationist jargon and mischaracterize the realm of science.  Yes, you are promoting anti science crap.



I'm sorry, but the theory of special relativity was not conceived of until Albert Einstein published a falsifiable theory. There may have been others who conceived of ideas which were close to it and which enabled him to publish the paper. Each new and precise idea does not exist until it exists in its precise form.

I do not see how I am being "anti-science". I love science. I worked in a neuroscience laboratory during my undergraduate career. I do computational applied linguistics research that is based on scientific analysis of corpus data. Science is a wonderful method.

I also love the philosophical method. I am very careful to avoid using one method to draw conclusions in the other, which is what a scientist is doing when he addresses the question of the existence of God. That is all I am saying.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: DieCommie]
    #19363489 - 01/03/14 01:38 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:


I dont get it.  Why does where you learned of the terms make it interesting?  Did you learn them from a creationist?  It is creationist jargon.
http://www.discovercreation.org/newsletters/Macroevolutionvs.Microevolution.htm



No, I learned them from a self-professed atheistic physical anthropology professor with a PhD in physical anthropology. The distinction between these terms was made very clear in my physical anthropology textbook. This was at a secular university. Are you insinuating that Creationist jargon is now an important theoretical aspect of phyiscal anthropology? You seem to be quite sure of yourself, but I am not lying to you.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363493 - 01/03/14 01:39 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

No, I am on the fence about the existence of supernatural causes.




There are 2 sides to the fence. One side is the supernatural causes you mentioned, the other side would be natural causes such as evolution. So yes, you are on the fence about evolution. I think you are the one with the comprehension problems.


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19363504 - 01/03/14 01:41 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

No, I am on the fence about the existence of supernatural causes.




There are 2 sides to the fence. One side is the supernatural causes you mentioned, the other side would be natural causes such as evolution. So yes, you are on the fence about evolution. I think you are the one with the comprehension problems.



If you honestly believe that there are only two possibilities for human existence... well... you're not very creative, my friend.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMisterSandman
Neo Nazi
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/23/13
Posts: 2,936
Loc: Meth
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: qman]
    #19363508 - 01/03/14 01:42 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Magicman69 said:
It's not stupid at all. Evolution teaches the big bang as a fact, yet fails to answer the most fundamental question. How did the matter come into existence, if not by creation?




Evolution and the big bang are two separate issues.





:whathesaid:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRiderOnTheStorm
Reject thug culture
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 1,855
Loc: Hug a hippie today
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363522 - 01/03/14 01:45 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
I didn't say don't teach either. I believe various important theories should be taught as theories which attempt to explain specific phenomena, with emphasis on their potential internal contradictions made clear during the instruction. This will allow for the theories to be refined and improved at a more efficient rate.




So at the beginning of a Bio 101 class you would presumably have professors spend a day or more discussing how time may be nonlinear, how aliens, artificial intelligence, or gods may have seeded life on earth, how despite forming over 20 amino acids in closed conditions the Urey-Miller experiment should not be taken at face value as evidence for abiogenesis since it didn't form DNA, and how it's possible that everything is all one big illusion and that macroevolution should be viewed skeptically because of that?

You don't see how this will likely only detract from learning, rather than bolstering it?

How do you refine theories of creationism? They consist of no substance to begin with.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363527 - 01/03/14 01:47 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

No, I am on the fence about the existence of supernatural causes.




There are 2 sides to the fence. One side is the supernatural causes you mentioned, the other side would be natural causes such as evolution. So yes, you are on the fence about evolution. I think you are the one with the comprehension problems.



If you honestly believe that there are only two possibilities for human existence... well... you're not very creative, my friend.




I never said there were only 2 possibilities. I said there were 2 sides of the fence, natural and supernatural. I gave evolution as an example. Again, I think you are the one with comprehension problems.

And let me ask you this, what other possibilities are there for the explanation of our existence besides creation or evolution?


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #19363533 - 01/03/14 01:48 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

RiderOnTheStorm said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
I didn't say don't teach either. I believe various important theories should be taught as theories which attempt to explain specific phenomena, with emphasis on their potential internal contradictions made clear during the instruction. This will allow for the theories to be refined and improved at a more efficient rate.




So at the beginning of a Bio 101 class you would presumably have professors spend a day or more discussing how time may be nonlinear, how aliens, artificial intelligence, or gods may have seeded life on earth, how despite forming over 20 amino acids in closed conditions the Urey-Miller experiment should not be taken at face value as evidence for abiogenesis since it didn't form DNA, and how it's possible that everything is all one big illusion and that macroevolution should be viewed skeptically because of that?

You don't see how this will likely only detract from learning, rather than bolstering it?



It seems to me that you watch too much history channel and read too few scholarly journals. There is conflicting evidence among the theories that are already presented which has nothing to do with aliens or gods. By the way, it seems very unlikely that time is linear.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19363568 - 01/03/14 01:57 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:


I never said there were only 2 possibilities. I said there were 2 sides of the fence, natural and supernatural. I gave evolution as an example. Again, I think you are the one with comprehension problems.

And let me ask you this, what other possibilities are there for the explanation of our existence besides creation or evolution?



I see what you're saying. It seems that you are simply failing to realize that it is possible to have an attitude of simultaneously openness to various conflicting possibilities. I have stated I do not believe in supernatural causes, merely that I do not know whether or not they exist and that I would be willing to accept the existence of one given proof or equivalently compelling evidence.

I just had a thought. Are you under the impression that supernatural causes and natural causes are mutually exclusive? That would explain a lot of our failure to communicate. Keep in mind that in order for a fence to exist be a fence, both sides must exist. The existence of one side of the fence does not mean that the other side of the fence cannot exist; on the contrary, it implies the existence of the other side of the fence. But this is only a metaphor, we are not actually talking about fences.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363585 - 01/03/14 02:01 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:



How do you refine theories of creationism? They consist of no substance to begin with.



See the bottom of page 3 for a refined theory of creationism.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRiderOnTheStorm
Reject thug culture
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 1,855
Loc: Hug a hippie today
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363592 - 01/03/14 02:02 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Nice ad hominem.

I cited specific studies concerning the topics at hand and you attack my knowledge base. I understand the arguments in favor of and against abiogenesis. I have a basic understanding of string theory, M theory and the differences between the quantum and material worlds. I've attended lectures regarding time and it's nonlinear nature. I included gods aliens and AI to satisfy your self proclaimed creativity and open mindedness, and to demonstrate the kind of conversation that would arise from your "various important theories" being brought up in a classroom setting. Rest assured, those theories are the ones that would be brought up in competition against evolution, not your circular alcoholics anonymous reasoning.

Pretend all you want, your anti-evolution rhetoric stems directly from religious dogma and is only supported by as much. I suspect that the only reason you stay on the fence, is to give yourself the illusion of being above those of us who keep our feet planted firmly on the ground.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleConfucian
...
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 1,741
Loc: USA Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363621 - 01/03/14 02:10 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
I have stated I do not believe in supernatural causes, merely that I do not know whether or not they exist and that I would be willing to accept the existence of one given proof or equivalently compelling evidence.




This has to be one of the most annoying "points" made by "agnostics."

Ya buddy, I'm not denying that a literal piece-of-shit-in-a-toilet orbits and is the baby god of our solar system. His Parents, two-giant-pieces-of-shit-in-two-large-toilets circle the Milky Way.

I don't believe it's true or not, but "merely that I do not know whether or not they exist and that I would be willing to accept the existence of one given proof"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #19363629 - 01/03/14 02:12 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

RiderOnTheStorm said:
Nice ad hominem.

I cited specific studies concerning the topics at hand and you attack my knowledge base. I understand the arguments in favor of and against abiogenesis. I have a basic understanding of string theory, M theory and the differences between the quantum and material worlds. I've attended lectures regarding time and it's nonlinear nature. I included gods aliens and AI to satisfy your self proclaimed creativity and open mindedness, and to demonstrate the kind of conversation that would arise from your "various important theories" being brought up in a classroom setting. Rest assured, those theories are the ones that would be brought up in competition against evolution, not your circular alcoholics anonymous reasoning.

Pretend all you want, your anti-evolution rhetoric stems directly from religious dogma and is only supported by as much. I suspect that the only reason you stay on the fence, is to give yourself the illusion of being above those of us who keep our feet planted firmly on the ground.



I don't rest assured of that. I am an educator in higher learning and I know what processes go into the development of lesson plans. Talk of introducing aliens into evolutionary biology would get you laughed out of the profession. It's not like each teacher gets to make up what they want to teach. It's a collective decision making process. Serious evolutionary biologists and physical anthropologists are aware of what gaps and conflicts exist in the cumulative evidence gathered by professionals in their fields of study, and they could present them in class, which could (and I believe would) potentially inspire more students to take an interest in their studies.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363636 - 01/03/14 02:13 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:


This has to be one of the most annoying "points" made by "agnostics."

Ya buddy, I'm not denying that a literal piece-of-shit-in-a-toilet orbits and is the baby god of our solar system. His Parents, two-giant-pieces-of-shit-in-two-large-toilets circle the Milky Way.

I don't believe it's true or not, but "merely that I do not know whether or not they exist and that I would be willing to accept the existence of one given proof"





I don't allow the reasoning that others use to arrive at their chosen perspectives to annoy me; I'm sorry that you do. It must be frustrating.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363679 - 01/03/14 02:33 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

No, I am on the fence about the existence of supernatural causes.




There are 2 sides to the fence. One side is the supernatural causes you mentioned, the other side would be natural causes such as evolution. So yes, you are on the fence about evolution. I think you are the one with the comprehension problems.



If you honestly believe that there are only two possibilities for human existence... well... you're not very creative, my friend.



Do you think there is more than one possibility for human existance? If so, please explain to me what it is. Thanks.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19363699 - 01/03/14 02:38 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

How many times are people going to ask me this?

There are unlimited possibilities. Again, I posted one on page 3.

Kabbalists, if I understand their beliefs correctly, believe that all existence is created by the use permutation of language. This idea interests me, even if I think it is not especially likely.

A relatively new idea (in its more formally developed sense, at least) is the Biocentric Universe


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRiderOnTheStorm
Reject thug culture
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 1,855
Loc: Hug a hippie today
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363700 - 01/03/14 02:38 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
I don't rest assured of that. I am an educator in higher learning and I know what processes go into the development of lesson plans. Talk of introducing aliens into evolutionary biology would get you laughed out of the profession. It's not like each teacher gets to make up what they want to teach. It's a collective decision making process. Serious evolutionary biologists and physical anthropologists are aware of what gaps and conflicts exist in the cumulative evidence gathered by professionals in their fields of study, and they could present them in class, which could (and I believe would) potentially inspire more students to take an interest in their studies.



Well you should, especially if you're an educator. I was partially schooled in Texas, where every coach-turned-science-teacher is quick to inform you that he doesn't believe the evolution that he's teaching. Every time this gets mentioned the classrooms erupt into discussion about creationism and ancient aliens. This is what happens when teachers are allowed, much less encouraged, to instruct their students about "alternatives" to evolution.

If we are talking about graduate degree courses than I would point out that no self respecting prof or university overlooks the gaps in evolutionary theory or their applicable fields. Hell I learned about the Urey-Miller exp in seventh grade while we were being taught the differences between amino acid complexity and RNA/DNA complexity and formation.

The point is that there is no alternative answer to evolutionary gaps that satisfies even the most basic tenets of scientific theory, no quantum solution that demonstrates the existence of god, no genetic factors that point to ancient aliens. None of the existing gaps contradict the theory of evolution any more than missing elements contradict our understanding of chemistry.

Until we know more we should teach what we do know, and that is that mankind evolved from single celled organisms, which most likely evolved from organic compounds that were originated abiogenically from lightning striking the primordial soup in just the right ways. Keep the quantum conversations in quantum classes and the religious conversations in religious studies classrooms and churches.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #19363732 - 01/03/14 02:47 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:


Well you should, especially if you're an educator. I was partially schooled in Texas, where every coach-turned-science-teacher is quick to inform you that he doesn't believe the evolution that he's teaching. Every time this gets mentioned the classrooms erupt into discussion about creationism and ancient aliens. This is what happens when teachers are allowed, much less encouraged, to instruct their students about "alternatives" to evolution.

If we are talking about graduate degree courses than I would point out that no self respecting prof or university overlooks the gaps in evolutionary theory or their applicable fields. Hell I learned about the Urey-Miller exp in seventh grade while we were being taught the differences between amino acid complexity and RNA/DNA complexity and formation.

The point is that there is no alternative answer to evolutionary gaps that satisfies even the most basic tenets of scientific theory, no quantum solution that demonstrates the existence of god, no genetic factors that point to ancient aliens. None of the existing gaps contradict the theory of evolution any more than missing elements contradict our understanding of chemistry.

Until we know more we should teach what we do know, and that is that mankind evolved from single celled organisms, which most likely evolved from organic compounds that were originated abiogenically from lightning striking the primordial soup in just the right ways. Keep the quantum conversations in quantum classes and the religious conversations in religious studies classrooms and churches.



I didn't say anything about incorporating my theory into a classroom setting. I was not talking about graduate level courses, I was talking about public school. In undergraduate physical anthropology we were in fact informed of the gaps in the theories, but up until that point we were not. Students who do not seek higher education deserve to understand these things. I did all of my schooling in and am an undergraduate level educator in Texas and never experienced what you described ("teacher is quick to inform you that he doesn't believe the evolution that he's teaching"). I lived in Houston, however, which is arguably the most liberal large city in Texas. In light of your negative experiences with biased educators, I can sympathize to a much greater extent with your perspective.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleConfucian
...
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 1,741
Loc: USA Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19363953 - 01/03/14 03:33 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
I lived in Houston, however, which is arguably the most liberal large city in Texas.




I've always heard Austin is the most liberal city in Texas.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Confucian]
    #19363965 - 01/03/14 03:35 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Confucian said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
I lived in Houston, however, which is arguably the most liberal large city in Texas.




I've always heard Austin is the most liberal city in Texas.



It is, but I wouldn't call Austin a large city.

Houston's mayor, however, is a lesbian activist. I think it's a pretty progressive city.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19366275 - 01/03/14 11:05 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
:rofl::suicide: you've gotta be fucking kidding me. What is your degree in, again? Business? Get the fuck out of here. Your statement is so blatantly outrageous that I am not even going to waste one smidgeon of my time actually debating it with you. I'm just going to make fun of you in this post for being ignorant as fuck. Normally you seem pretty intelligent but holy shit, what a load. I'm going to sleep. PEACE




Butthurt much? What are you, PMSing? I don't even know what it is you are angry about. :lol: You seem like a guy with an inferiority complex, for blowing such a small comment out of proportion and taking it to heart. "Boohoo I'm smarty pants, you stupid, boohoo!" WAAAHAHHAAHA



Uh no, you are are just making WAY too drastic of an assumption. Newsflash: I happen to be an EXTREMELY well-read individual who is definitely familiar with MANY of the atheist arguments that come out the theory of evolution, though I'm not sure which ones you're referring to when you say "the arguments". Normally I am very soft-spoken, but do you have any idea how arrogant it is to assume that if someone believes in God, it means they aren't familiar with the arguments for evolution? Do you have any idea how many Christian biologists there are? My sponsor in AA actually happens to be an evolutionary Biology professor (that is why I chose him, because I was having a hard time with the fact that the steps essentially call for divine intervention, yet that is his profession and he is able to work the program) and is definitely NOT an atheist. I'm not trying to be a smartypants, you're the one you thinks you're a smartypants and makes outrageous assumptions because of it.

What kind of books did you read that led you to believe these kinds of things anyway? Dawkins?




Dude, YOU are making way too drastic of an assumption, by reading WAY TOO MUCH into my statement. I don't know anything about you. I don't know whether you are religious, or a creationist or an evolutionist. My sentence was just a simple statement that wasn't meant to be taken at face value.

And yes, I am aware that many scientists are religious. As a matter of fact, most scientists that I've met believe in god, even the super smart ones that graduated from MIT and Harvard. Even Einstein and Newton believed in SOME form of god. But believing in evolution has nothing to do with whether you believe in a god or not. You can still believe in both and the two are not contradictory.

There are a few things that I read, most of it was over 10 years ago, but probably the simplest one that can be found online is by talkorigins.

Five major misconceptions about evolution
29 Evidences for Macroevolution
Talk Origins FAQ
Creationist Claims and Scientific Error

Creationism definitely has no merit being taught in public schools. The classroom is not a political forum where all people get a voice, no matter how irrational or kooky and off the bend each party may be. Creationism definititely deserves to have a place to be shared in a RELIGIOUS STUDIES class, but definitely NOT in a science class, which relies on evidence that can be observed and tested.

I've sat through some of the creationist panels. And as I mentioned before, they use VERY CONVINCING methods to try to convince people that evolution is a farce. They cite people with PhD's in "evolutionary science" (which is really nothing more than getting a degree from a creationist fundamentalist school, but they don't tell you that), and they refute evolutionism by creating strawmans about it and by claiming that evolutionism makes claims that it doesn't, to try to discredit it. Basically, their understanding of evolutionism is completely incorrect and un-factual.

But they are so convincing and so damn good at being persuasive, that I can definitely see how somebody who doesn't have very extensive knowledge of science could easily be persuaded by the creationist claims.


Edited by Crystal G (01/03/14 11:15 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19366327 - 01/03/14 11:16 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Uh, what do you mean I read too much into what you said? You said

Quote:


People who believe in God won't change their mind, but people who are on the fence about the subject, or people who are open-minded and don't believe one way or the other will definitely be persuaded by evolution.





That is a ridiculous statement that is hard to misinterpret and has nothing to do with what should be taught in classrooms. Not meant to be taken at face value? Then how is it supposed to be taken? Why don't you just say what you mean instead of saying something other than what you mean...? Sounds to me like you're just backpedaling.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19366371 - 01/03/14 11:29 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Uh, what do you mean I read too much into what you said? You said

Quote:


People who believe in God won't change their mind, but people who are on the fence about the subject, or people who are open-minded and don't believe one way or the other will definitely be persuaded by evolution.





That is a ridiculous statement that is hard to misinterpret and has nothing to do with what should be taught in classrooms. Not meant to be taken at face value? Then how is it supposed to be taken? Why don't you just say what you mean instead of saying something other than what you mean...? Sounds to me like you're just backpedaling.




Again, it's because you don't understand why I said that.

The reason I said that, is because I often watch Intelligence Squared debates, which can be found on this channel: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCenxjWEkb0Sv67vejOgZ3Tg

On every single debate, they poll the audience about their beliefs, whether they are pro or con about whatever the topic of debate is about. Audience answer that they are either pro, or con, or have no opinion or are undecided. After the debate ends, they poll the audience again, and some people who were previously pro changed their answers to con, and visa versa. And many people who were previously undecided or on the fence changed their answers to either con or pro after hearing the debate.

So, my statement had nothing to do with my opinion of creationists or evolutionists or whatever. It had to do with my experience of watching those debates, and seeing what happens in those debates. Because that is what happens in those debates, based on what I've seen. People who are on the fence are persuaded by whoever makes the best argument.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19366458 - 01/04/14 12:03 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

...You see? Now don't you feel stupid for blowing up for no reason? :cool: All of this could have been resolved early on by simply asking what I meant by my statement.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: DieCommie]
    #19366708 - 01/04/14 02:34 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

abltsandwich said:
"micro" and "macro" evolution are creationist jargon?
Dude it's latin prefixes attached to the front of words.
It happens ALL THE TIME in science, especially biology.




Yea, so what?  That doesn't preclude them from being creationist jargon.  And being used in a biology text or science text doesn't preclude that either.  Its not exclusive to creationists, but it is creationist jargon.  90+% of the time you hear them brought up its by a creationist trying to deny speciation in evolution.  There is a distinction between the two, but not a meaningful one like the creationists insist there is.




It's true, creationists attempt to differentiate between "micro" and "macro" evolution, by saying that "micro" evolution can certainly exist, but "macro" evolution, AKA one species evolving into another entirely different species, cannot and does not occur.

Except of course, that macro evolution, is essentially a fuck ton of micro evolution all at once put together.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19366718 - 01/04/14 02:42 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:


Well you should, especially if you're an educator. I was partially schooled in Texas, where every coach-turned-science-teacher is quick to inform you that he doesn't believe the evolution that he's teaching. Every time this gets mentioned the classrooms erupt into discussion about creationism and ancient aliens. This is what happens when teachers are allowed, much less encouraged, to instruct their students about "alternatives" to evolution.

If we are talking about graduate degree courses than I would point out that no self respecting prof or university overlooks the gaps in evolutionary theory or their applicable fields. Hell I learned about the Urey-Miller exp in seventh grade while we were being taught the differences between amino acid complexity and RNA/DNA complexity and formation.

The point is that there is no alternative answer to evolutionary gaps that satisfies even the most basic tenets of scientific theory, no quantum solution that demonstrates the existence of god, no genetic factors that point to ancient aliens. None of the existing gaps contradict the theory of evolution any more than missing elements contradict our understanding of chemistry.

Until we know more we should teach what we do know, and that is that mankind evolved from single celled organisms, which most likely evolved from organic compounds that were originated abiogenically from lightning striking the primordial soup in just the right ways. Keep the quantum conversations in quantum classes and the religious conversations in religious studies classrooms and churches.



I didn't say anything about incorporating my theory into a classroom setting. I was not talking about graduate level courses, I was talking about public school. In undergraduate physical anthropology we were in fact informed of the gaps in the theories, but up until that point we were not. Students who do not seek higher education deserve to understand these things. I did all of my schooling in and am an undergraduate level educator in Texas and never experienced what you described ("teacher is quick to inform you that he doesn't believe the evolution that he's teaching"). I lived in Houston, however, which is arguably the most liberal large city in Texas. In light of your negative experiences with biased educators, I can sympathize to a much greater extent with your perspective.




So you're an educator in Texas. With all due respect, while I respect your profession as an educator, I must say that the school board of Texas is entirely screwed up in what they are teaching the kids, not just in science, but in history and politics as well.

For example, the school board of Texas actually banned the words "socialism" and "nationalism" from history books. :facepalm: They have also twisted history books to emphasize religion, without any mention of separation of church and state:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124861233
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/culture/texas-school-board-approves-controversial-textbook-changes/954/

So essentially, kids who graduate from high school in Texas are dumber and less informed than junior high kids in any other state.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19366737 - 01/04/14 02:52 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

:derail:


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLegend
RIP Sasha
Male


Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 28,336
Loc: TX Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Ellis Dee] * 1
    #19366742 - 01/04/14 03:00 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Skill level of humans? We're blithering apes intent on denying the fact that we're animals at all. All that clothes wearing and hair shaving and social laws and religion and what we call science with all those hydrogen bombs and striped minty toothpaste and all the other rediculous stuff humans do, ya know. Its absurd really, that we think we're special at all.



Couldn't have said it better myself.


--------------------
No sympathy for the devil, keep that in mind.
[url=
]Buy the ticket, take the ride. [/url]
Are you lost?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
Other

Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19367004 - 01/04/14 06:22 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
It's pretty sad to me that people read my posts and say things like:

Quote:

I got the impression that you do in fact believe in god, but that is what I got out of you posts in this thread.






Quote:

I am curious to know what are other supernatural beliefs in the causes for mans existence that do not have to do with religion and are not completely outdated?




Quote:

My position is simple.I believe that there are many truths of which I am unaware.




If I am unaware of the supernatural causes, then I cannot tell you what they are. I simply take the position that they could exist. However, if you really want to press me, I could argue that free will is itself a supernatural cause and could be responsible for man's existence. Here is my response to Step Two of the 12 steps, in which I was asked to envision for myself a Higher Power which could restore me to sanity:

Quote:

I am an agnostic in the strict sense of the word. Gnosis means "mystical or spiritual knowledge" and the prefix A- means "without". I take this even further, I assume the position of epistemic skepticism, which means I believe that I have no knowledge of the outside world whatsoever; instead, I continually form beliefs in response to environment stimuli which have varying levels of efficacy. The level of efficacy generally determines whether a given belief is discarded or retained for future employment.

I currently believe that there are many powers greater than myself to which I am subjected on a constant basis. Scientists have attempted to describe many of these powers in terms of laws and principles, primarily in the areas of physics and chemistry, but have as yet failed to do so with predictive precision, as evidenced by the probabilistic nature of calculations performed at the quantum level. If we assume a linear system of causal connection (A -> B -> C -> D rather than A -> B; A -> C; A -> D or something else), this appears to imply that there is(/are) some element(s) missing from their metaphysical descriptions which is(/are) nevertheless inextricably bound to it(/them). Let us call one of these elements "free will". Let us suppose a dichotomy between the quantifiable (i.e. physical/material) world and free will, and assume a causal feedback connection between the two such that free will is primary and the quantifiable is secondary.

Though the language is perhaps burdensome, it seems to me that what falls out of this system is actually a type of Creationism. It appears to me that Creation is an ongoing, as-yet incomplete and never-to-be completed process which results from the interaction between free will and that which is quantifiable. I suspect that perceptual experiences place "boundary-limits" on free will relative to that which is quantifiable, resulting in what we might call a "co-Creative" process, in which the recipients of perceptual experiences may collaborate in order to increase the relative complexity of the quantifiable portion of the system. This means that originally there was perception, then there was the quantifiable, then there was a casual feedback connection between the two, which has been increasing in complexity ever since. It seems to me that this process most closely though not precisely depicted Chapter 42 of the Tao Te Ching,

Tao produces one
One produces two
Two produce three
Three produce myriad things
Myriad things, backed by yin and embracing yang
Achieve harmony by integrating their energy

Gordon Globus perhaps comes closest to scientifically documenting the interaction between mind and matter according to the views I have just outlined in his paper "Quantum Consciousness is Cybernetic".







That was beautifully put. Abiogenesis, the mystery of how this all came to be, sciences (substantial) gaps in its understanding, the inability to adequately explain consciousness. All of these add up to there being many, many probably answers to all those questions, although science may have lead us to a partial understanding of matter and brought about many advancements for society, it's still not a definitive answer for anything, not even evolution.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleQuawonk
Nobody Special
Male

Registered: 03/20/13
Posts: 242
Loc: Planet Bob
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19367059 - 01/04/14 06:54 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

There is no benefit for Nye or science in general in doing this. It will simply legitimize Hamhead's ridiculous beliefs. "If scientists are talking about it, there must be something to it." This is not a debate that will be won by evidence and logic, but by dogma and bullshit. Hamhead has home field advantage as well. Nye cannot win on those terms and is wasting his time.

http://www.godofevolution.com/why-bill-nyes-debate-with-young-earth-creationist-ken-ham-is-probably-a-mistake/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Quawonk]
    #19367246 - 01/04/14 08:35 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Thank you, Bodhi, I am glad that someone appreciated it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Quawonk]
    #19367250 - 01/04/14 08:36 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Quawonk said:
There is no benefit for Nye or science in general in doing this. It will simply legitimize Hamhead's ridiculous beliefs. "If scientists are talking about it, there must be something to it." This is not a debate that will be won by evidence and logic, but by dogma and bullshit. Hamhead has home field advantage as well. Nye cannot win on those terms and is wasting his time.

http://www.godofevolution.com/why-bill-nyes-debate-with-young-earth-creationist-ken-ham-is-probably-a-mistake/



:thumbup:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Magicman69]
    #19367783 - 01/04/14 11:54 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Magicman69 said:
Matter can not be created from nothing. If the big bang theory is correct (and I have serious doubts) what created the matter that started the bang? Something created this matter. God. Maybe not the god in the bible, but IMO, there was some sort of design to the universe in the beginning.




something interesting about the big bang theory that people dont know is that
the concept was the brainchild of a catholic priest, why not read up on this
theory and learn that it doesnt actually show that anything was created from
nothing, that all that matter did come from somewhere

bill nye arguing this creationist makes bill just as big of a fool


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShins
Fun guy
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #19367801 - 01/04/14 11:58 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Like I said, bill nye is a douche


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Doobie Dude


Registered: 04/28/13
Posts: 13,498
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19367853 - 01/04/14 12:07 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
dumb. whenever a "scientist" wastes time addressing the existence or nonexistence of god [s]he instantly loses so much respect in my eyes. just do science. people who believe in god arent going to watch that shit and change their mind



But it is fun watching someone who believes in God get there anus brutally pounded


--------------------

"There are a million reasons to drink and one just popped into my head.  If a man can't drink when he's living how the Hell can he drink when he's dead?" - Irish Limerick
I PLURed once because it was PLUR or die. - D.M.T.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: The Doobie Dude]
    #19368059 - 01/04/14 12:47 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShins
Fun guy
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: The Doobie Dude]
    #19368086 - 01/04/14 12:51 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

The Doobie Dude said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
dumb. whenever a "scientist" wastes time addressing the existence or nonexistence of god [s]he instantly loses so much respect in my eyes. just do science. people who believe in god arent going to watch that shit and change their mind



But it is fun watching someone who believes in God get there anus brutally pounded





Why is that fun?

you obviously hade deep psycholigical issues involving this topic.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEnvix
Avoidant Disorder
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 18,206
Last seen: 9 months, 24 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Shins]
    #19368131 - 01/04/14 01:02 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

science proves that which is knowable. faith knows that which isn't provable.

this, however, is just retarded:



end debate/





--------------------
smack a hoe out this dimension
continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie

rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19368439 - 01/04/14 02:00 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
...You see? Now don't you feel stupid for blowing up for no reason? :cool: All of this could have been resolved early on by simply asking what I meant by my statement.



No, I don't feel stupid. You made an unqualified statement without putting it inside of any context. I feel exactly as justified in replying the way that I did now as I did when I replied that way. Even in light of your added context, what you said doesn't make sense. You are saying that people changed sides during the course of the debate, but your original comment was:
Quote:


People who believe in God won't change their mind, but people who are on the fence about the subject, or people who are open-minded and don't believe one way or the other will definitely be persuaded by evolution.




You also said:

Quote:

On every single debate, they poll the audience about their beliefs, whether they are pro or con about whatever the topic of debate is about. Audience answer that they are either pro, or con, or have no opinion or are undecided. After the debate ends, they poll the audience again, and some people who were previously pro changed their answers to con, and visa versa. And many people who were previously undecided or on the fence changed their answers to either con or pro after hearing the debate.




If you were assuming that this debate would go the same way the IQ^2 debate went, then people who believe in God would stop believing in God based on evolutionary arguments, and people who don't believe in God would start believing in God based on Creationist arguments, and people who are on the fence would not believe in God based on evolutionary arguments.

Look, I'm not really trying to argue with you, but you seem to be trying to argue with me. All I wanted to do was point out that it is incredibly arrogant and pretentious to have the attitude that undecided individuals will inevitably be persuaded by evolutionary arguments. If you want to keep saying things for me to deconstruct and point out the flaws in, feel free.


Edited by morrowasted (01/04/14 02:09 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19368474 - 01/04/14 02:08 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

science proves that which is knowable.


Is that so?

Why can't people just accept that science is a useful tool that is inherently language-bound and therefore perpetually incomplete, and stop looking for truth or knowledge?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShins
Fun guy
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19368494 - 01/04/14 02:11 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Atheists are know it alls if you haven't yet noticed.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Shins]
    #19368538 - 01/04/14 02:19 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Atheists are know it alls if you haven't yet noticed.



I can honestly say that almost all of the atheists I know didn't choose it for intellectual reasons, but as a psychological reaction to some experienced trauma.

I don't believe (or disbelieve) in (any) God(s), but I will never call myself an Atheist. I love how mad people who call themselves Atheists get when I tell them that.

Sorry, but Atheism is a specific position, and it isn't my position.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMagicman69
All About the Benjamins
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 6,876
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19368562 - 01/04/14 02:23 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

GOD IS LOVE! :heart::heart::heart::heart::heart:

I HOPE YOU ALL FIND IT

SATAN IS FEAR :thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown:

Don't buy into fear.


Edited by Magicman69 (01/04/14 02:24 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19368640 - 01/04/14 02:40 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

science proves that which is knowable.


Is that so?

Why can't people just accept that science is a useful tool that is inherently language-bound and therefore perpetually incomplete, and stop looking for truth or knowledge?





Science can be applied in many more ways than just language. Hypothesis can be put forward and then tested using controlled experiments and observations. It is not language bound. There are many factors involved in scientific studies other than just language.

And are you actually suggesting that people stop looking for truth and knowledge? And you are an educator? LMFAO

Good luck with that


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleConfucian
...
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 1,741
Loc: USA Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19368644 - 01/04/14 02:41 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Why can't people just accept that science is a useful tool that is inherently language-bound and therefore perpetually incomplete, and stop looking for truth or knowledge?




:facepalm:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
Other

Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Confucian]
    #19368778 - 01/04/14 03:15 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Wow, how hard is it to admit science doesn't explain a lot of fundamental questions about the universe. One little hint that science is partial in its understanding and most of you go off the fuckin wall.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19368813 - 01/04/14 03:26 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Wow, how hard is it to admit science doesn't explain a lot of fundamental questions about the universe




Of course science cannot answer all questions. However it does answer many many questions. And regarding evolution, it is not about whether or not to believe in it, but whether you understand the science behind it.


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleConfucian
...
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 1,741
Loc: USA Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19368973 - 01/04/14 04:02 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Wow, how hard is it to admit science doesn't explain a lot of fundamental questions about the universe. One little hint that science is partial in its understanding and most of you go off the fuckin wall.



:notcoolman:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
Other

Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19368974 - 01/04/14 04:02 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Abiogenesis is not understood as of yet. Generational evolution however is readily apparent.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleConfucian
...
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 1,741
Loc: USA Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19368983 - 01/04/14 04:04 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Abiogenesis is not understood as of yet. Generational evolution however is readily apparent.



:thisfuckinguy:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19369139 - 01/04/14 04:39 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Abiogenesis is not understood as of yet. Generational evolution however is readily apparent.





That is true but the debate, which was the subject of this thread, is not really about abiogenesis. It is about evolution of species already living


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinemindOmy
Philosopher Cubensis
Male


Registered: 06/26/13
Posts: 181
Loc: MilkyWayGalaxy
Last seen: 7 months, 28 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19369174 - 01/04/14 04:47 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

HOLY SHIT 7 pages?! That escalated quickly...... :didyouseethat:

Anyone traveling from surrounding states to go to this? PM me ill pay for your gas!! My car wouldn't make it... :mad2:


--------------------


Plato’s Allegory of the Cave



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsi
TOAST N' JAM
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613 Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19370216 - 01/04/14 08:42 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Abiogenesis is not understood as of yet. Generational evolution however is readily apparent.





That is true but the debate, which was the subject of this thread, is not really about abiogenesis. It is about evolution of species already living




Apparently the debate topic is “Is creationism a viable model of origins?”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19370284 - 01/04/14 09:02 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Look, I'm not really trying to argue with you, but you seem to be trying to argue with me. All I wanted to do was point out that it is incredibly arrogant and pretentious to have the attitude that undecided individuals will inevitably be persuaded by evolutionary arguments. If you want to keep saying things for me to deconstruct and point out the flaws in, feel free.




DUDE. YOU are the one trying to start an argument with ME. Notice how each time I responded I kept saying, "You are taking my statement way too personally, it wasn't meant to mean anything" and you kept pressing about how I meant so and so and so. WHICH ENDED UP MEANING SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT YOU THOUGHT I WAS SAYING. So YOU basically picked a fight with ME OVER NOTHING.


Quote:


If you were assuming that this debate would go the same way the IQ^2 debate went




I already stated how I think the debate would go (which is not usually how "the" IQ^2 debates" go, which doesn't even make sense considering there's hundreds and hundreds of debates and each one of them ends totally differently from others).

As stated previously, this is what I would believe would happen:

Quote:

People who believe in God won't change their mind, but people who are on the fence about the subject, or people who are open-minded and don't believe one way or the other [about evolution] will definitely be persuaded by evolution.




Quote:

then people who believe in God would stop believing in God based on evolutionary arguments, and people who don't believe in God would start believing in God based on Creationist arguments, and people who are on the fence would not believe in God based on evolutionary arguments.




When did I ever say that people who wouldn't believe in God would stop believing in God based on evolution? I said that people don't believe one way or the other, or aren't informed about evolution, would definitely be persuaded by the evolutionist argument.

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

science proves that which is knowable.


Is that so?

Why can't people just accept that science is a useful tool that is inherently language-bound and therefore perpetually incomplete, and stop looking for truth or knowledge?





Science can be applied in many more ways than just language. Hypothesis can be put forward and then tested using controlled experiments and observations. It is not language bound. There are many factors involved in scientific studies other than just language.

And are you actually suggesting that people stop looking for truth and knowledge? And you are an educator? LMFAO

Good luck with that




He's an educator from Texas, which essentially means he teaches nothing but propaganda. Read my previous post about the (lack of) academic material that is taught by the Texas school board.

Anybody who says that science is a "language-bound tool" clearly has no conceptual understanding of science.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsi
TOAST N' JAM
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613 Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19370806 - 01/04/14 11:38 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

He teaches at a university I think.

Regarding the idea of people who believe in God not changing their minds, I don't think you're correct necessarily (even if it's limited to people who say they believe in the God of the Bible.) Not all such people are strongly invested in the Bible being both completely inerrant and completely literal down to the last detail, and afraid of believing any different. Those who are are probably unlikely to change their minds, but some others who are open to a looser approach may just not have got around to looking into evolutionary theory much. Others still already believe evolution to be fact and see no real conflict with their spiritual beliefs.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: psi]
    #19370818 - 01/04/14 11:43 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

psi said:
He teaches at a university I think.




He doesn't. Read through the thread, somebody asked if he taught at a university level, he doesn't. He teaches at a high school level (if even that). Which means if he resides in Texas and teaches science, it's shoddy Christian science, and if it's politics/history he teaches, it's not even accurate politics or history that he teaches. That is why he thinks science is adherent to "language skewing" and that people should stop the pursuit in the search of truth.


Edited by Crystal G (01/04/14 11:50 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsi
TOAST N' JAM
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613 Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19370905 - 01/05/14 12:12 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

I don't believe he did say anywhere in this thread that he is a high school teacher. I did re-read the thread as you suggested and what he said was that he taught at an undergraduate level. He's alluded to this in other threads as well I think. Obviously though I have no real way of knowing whether what anyone on here claims to do in real life is true (nor do I really care all that much,) but I'm not convinced that he ever claimed to be a high school teacher.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: psi]
    #19370932 - 01/05/14 12:22 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Oh, I guess he is an undergraduate-level educator. Who knows, though. Maybe he learned and is teaching at a Christian university. He DID say that he was informed of the "gaps" in evolutionary theory in undergraduate anthropology (which apparently is what made him skeptical of evolution?).


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsi
TOAST N' JAM
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613 Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19370955 - 01/05/14 12:34 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

I could be wrong but I think philosophy may be his field. From what he was saying here,  I got the impression that he was just expressing a general skepticism of being certain about anything. He definitely did seem to be in a rather pissy mood as well though for whatever reason.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
Other

Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: psi]
    #19371324 - 01/05/14 03:51 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Abiogenesis is not understood as of yet. Generational evolution however is readily apparent.







That is true but the debate, which was the subject of this thread, is not really about abiogenesis. It is about evolution of species already living




Apparently the debate topic is “Is creationism a viable model of origins?”




That's not at all what morrow or anyone else said. Learn to read.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19371586 - 01/05/14 07:09 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:


He doesn't. Read through the thread, somebody asked if he taught at a university level, he doesn't. He teaches at a high school level (if even that). Which means if he resides in Texas and teaches science, it's shoddy Christian science, and if it's politics/history he teaches, it's not even accurate politics or history that he teaches. That is why he thinks science is adherent to "language skewing" and that people should stop the pursuit in the search of truth.


Welp, I'm done with talking to you after making this post. It's obvious that I'm talking to someone who has already made up their mind and it isn't really paying attention to what I say. I clearly stated that I teach undergraduate college classes. My classes are not subject to "School boards"; I design my own lesson my plans as I see fit and my students learn accordingly. I teach Spanish, though, so you don't need to worry about me "getting wrong ideas about science into the minds of our youth." In any case I was raised in Texas and we learn normal biology/chemistry/etc. just like anyone else; your assumption that we learn "Christian science" is asinine downright rude. If you don't see how language limits science, learn about Godel's Incompleteness Theorem; or if you are too stupid to draw the conclusions from that yourself, read this book:



People should pursue science in the pursuit of useful ends like technological progress, medicine, etc., but it will not give you truth. It never will. Truth is something that individuals assign to propositions- it always has been that way,  and it always will be that way. If you don't understand how that works, take a Logic I course.

Goodbye.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsi
TOAST N' JAM
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613 Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19372151 - 01/05/14 10:19 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Abiogenesis is not understood as of yet. Generational evolution however is readily apparent.







That is true but the debate, which was the subject of this thread, is not really about abiogenesis. It is about evolution of species already living




Apparently the debate topic is “Is creationism a viable model of origins?”




That's not at all what morrow or anyone else said. Learn to read.




Learn to read yourself, I never suggested that this point had been mentioned in this thread by morrowasted (not the OP of this thread btw) or anyone else. An article linked earlier in the thread says that “Is creationism a viable model of origins?” is the topic of the planned Nye-Ham debate, and that debate is the topic of this thread. If you have conflicting information on the question they will be debating then go ahead and produce it.

Quote:

Quawonk said:
There is no benefit for Nye or science in general in doing this. It will simply legitimize Hamhead's ridiculous beliefs. "If scientists are talking about it, there must be something to it." This is not a debate that will be won by evidence and logic, but by dogma and bullshit. Hamhead has home field advantage as well. Nye cannot win on those terms and is wasting his time.

http://www.godofevolution.com/why-bill-nyes-debate-with-young-earth-creationist-ken-ham-is-probably-a-mistake/





http://www.answersingenesis.org/outreach/event/Nye-Ham-Debate/?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=noteworthy&utm_campaign=bill-nye-ken-ham-debate


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLegend
RIP Sasha
Male


Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 28,336
Loc: TX Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: psi]
    #19372205 - 01/05/14 10:31 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

i dont want to wait til February to see the debate!


--------------------
No sympathy for the devil, keep that in mind.
[url=
]Buy the ticket, take the ride. [/url]
Are you lost?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Shins]
    #19372223 - 01/05/14 10:35 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Atheists are know it alls if you haven't yet noticed.



Mostly just the young ones


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
Other

Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: psi]
    #19372260 - 01/05/14 10:43 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Abiogenesis is not understood as of yet. Generational evolution however is readily apparent.







That is true but the debate, which was the subject of this thread, is not really about abiogenesis. It is about evolution of species already living




Apparently the debate topic is “Is creationism a viable model of origins?”




That's not at all what morrow or anyone else said. Learn to read.




Learn to read yourself, I never suggested that this point had been mentioned in this thread by morrowasted (not the OP of this thread btw) or anyone else. An article linked earlier in the thread says that “Is creationism a viable model of origins?” is the topic of the planned Nye-Ham debate, and that debate is the topic of this thread. If you have conflicting information on the question they will be debating then go ahead and produce it.






In the context of what you were replying to its implied. Next time pick a better place to interject.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsi
TOAST N' JAM
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613 Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19372303 - 01/05/14 10:53 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

I was talking about the Nye vs Ham debate, which is the subject of this thread. I'm not quite sure what you are on about exactly. My best guess is that you thought I was implying something that I wasn't (whatever that might be exactly) and are now butthurt because I called you out for jumping down my throat over your misinterpretation.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRiderOnTheStorm
Reject thug culture
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 1,855
Loc: Hug a hippie today
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19372466 - 01/05/14 11:36 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
People should pursue science in the pursuit of useful ends like technological progress, medicine, etc., but it will not give you truth. It never will. Truth is something that individuals assign to propositions- it always has been that way,  and it always will be that way. If you don't understand how that works, take a Logic I course.




And people say that atheists are know it alls...


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #19372503 - 01/05/14 11:45 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Truth is what you can use to make predictions.  Creationism does not do that.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShins
Fun guy
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19372536 - 01/05/14 11:52 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Creation vs evolution is a false dichotomy.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #19372620 - 01/05/14 12:10 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

RiderOnTheStorm said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
People should pursue science in the pursuit of useful ends like technological progress, medicine, etc., but it will not give you truth. It never will. Truth is something that individuals assign to propositions- it always has been that way,  and it always will be that way. If you don't understand how that works, take a Logic I course.




And people say that atheists are know it alls...





:whathesaid:


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #19372843 - 01/05/14 12:59 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

RiderOnTheStorm said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
People should pursue science in the pursuit of useful ends like technological progress, medicine, etc., but it will not give you truth. It never will. Truth is something that individuals assign to propositions- it always has been that way,  and it always will be that way. If you don't understand how that works, take a Logic I course.




And people say that atheists are know it alls...



Quote:

If you don't understand how that works, take a Logic I course.




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19372844 - 01/05/14 12:59 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

RiderOnTheStorm said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
People should pursue science in the pursuit of useful ends like technological progress, medicine, etc., but it will not give you truth. It never will. Truth is something that individuals assign to propositions- it always has been that way,  and it always will be that way. If you don't understand how that works, take a Logic I course.




And people say that atheists are know it alls...





:whathesaid:



Quote:

If you don't understand how that works, take a Logic I course.




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19372897 - 01/05/14 01:10 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Come to think of it, all of you atheists should just take a damn logic class.

It never hurt any one to take a logic class.


While you're at it, read a whole bunch of fucking books. Non-fiction books. Academic level non-fiction books, none of that pop science garbage that Dawkins has been churning out for the last 15 years. Hell, if you're an atheist and you want to read a decent book by an atheist, read Anthony Flew. The sad thing is that even though I'm not an atheist I'm probably more familiar with atheist arguments than 95% of the atheists I meet. Most of them are atheists because they're mad at mommy and daddy or even God himself (which makes absolutely no sense at all, but I run into it all the time).

And yeah, I am kind of pissy. I recently quit doing drugs and so I'm not high and giggly all the time. I'm actually really content, and I have a lot of time to get work done now. One of the things that is happening is that I'm realizing how much time I wasted being a lazy fuckoff when I was doing drugs all the time. Now, I'm not in a position to judge, but I've seen the CA thread. I'm just going to leave it at that. Don't be surprised if my presence on this forum gradually (or even abruptly) diminishes in the near future. I'm sure I won't be missed; whatever.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Shins]
    #19372915 - 01/05/14 01:12 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Creation vs evolution is a false dichotomy.



ORLY?  How so?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #19372925 - 01/05/14 01:14 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Creation vs evolution is a false dichotomy.



ORLY?  How so?



Because evolution could be a created phenomenon.... :huxleyfacepalm:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19372927 - 01/05/14 01:14 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Welp, I'm done with talking to you after making this post. It's obvious that I'm talking to someone who has already made up their mind and it isn't really paying attention to what I say. I clearly stated that I teach undergraduate college classes. My classes are not subject to "School boards"; I design my own lesson my plans as I see fit and my students learn accordingly.




I didn't think you taught high school because I made up your mind about you, it was because I was reading a long paragraph of yours quickly, and I read the sentence "I taught at the undergraduate level" for "I learned in the undergraduate level." This made me deduce that you must be teaching at the high school level, because usually only master's degrees or PhD's are hired at the college level. This belief was further cemented by your other posts, "People should stop pursing truth" or whatever.

Quote:

I teach Spanish, though, so you don't need to worry about me "getting wrong ideas about science into the minds of our youth." In any case I was raised in Texas and we learn normal biology/chemistry/etc. just like anyone else; your assumption that we learn "Christian science" is asinine downright rude.




Again, refer to my previous post about the sort of material the Texas school board banned, specifically from history and political science textbooks.

Quote:

If you don't see how language limits science, learn about Godel's Incompleteness Theorem; or if you are too stupid to draw the conclusions from that yourself, read this book:



People should pursue science in the pursuit of useful ends like technological progress, medicine, etc., but it will not give you truth. It never will. Truth is something that individuals assign to propositions- it always has been that way,  and it always will be that way. If you don't understand how that works, take a Logic I course.

Goodbye.




I never read Godel's books, however the latest one I have read was Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. So I am going to talk about that, since it would be stupid of me to argue about a book I never read. Mere Christianity was a philosophical, moral-based argument using "The Laws of Human Nature" for the existence of god based on false premises. The reason that you believe science is heavily language-based is because you read those kind of books. Theological books rely heavily on tautology and people's interpretations of historical human-made artifacts.

But, you also need to be reading criticisms and critiques of those books to understand the greater meaning behind why that book is so convincing in the first place.

I mean for Christ's sake, we have devised electron microscopes and have figured out how to take the RNA/DNA out of viruses so we can inject human bodies with the simple viral shell. People who say that science is language-based or has no real merit simply does not understand what science is, or how science works.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19372935 - 01/05/14 01:16 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

No, the reason I believe that science is language based is because scientific theories are formulated in language :facepalm: Mere Christianity is about Christianity. Try reading about language if you want to understand language. Stop drawing ridiculous conclusions from about about Christianity in an attempt to apply them to my understanding of science.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19372944 - 01/05/14 01:18 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
No, the reason I believe that science is language based is because scientific theories are formulated in language :facepalm:




That does not mean it is language-BASED. Language is what is simply used to describe the PROCESS of what is actually PHYSICALLY HAPPENING in scientific applications. Language is not the foundation, the foundation is in the experiment and observation.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19372960 - 01/05/14 01:21 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Creation vs evolution is a false dichotomy.



ORLY?  How so?



Because evolution could be a created phenomenon.... :huxleyfacepalm:




I do believe that creationists deny that.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19372972 - 01/05/14 01:22 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
No, the reason I believe that science is language based is because scientific theories are formulated in language :facepalm: Mere Christianity is about Christianity. Try reading about language if you want to understand language. Stop drawing ridiculous conclusions from about about Christianity in an attempt to apply them to my understanding of science.



Mathematics are language.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #19372978 - 01/05/14 01:22 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Scientific applications of what?

Scientific hypotheses. Which are formulated in what?

Yup. Language.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19372988 - 01/05/14 01:24 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
No, the reason I believe that science is language based is because scientific theories are formulated in language :facepalm: Mere Christianity is about Christianity. Try reading about language if you want to understand language. Stop drawing ridiculous conclusions from about about Christianity in an attempt to apply them to my understanding of science.



Mathematics are language.



Yes, mathematics are very simple languages that involve quantified predicate existential operators and definition operators.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19372996 - 01/05/14 01:26 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
No, the reason I believe that science is language based is because scientific theories are formulated in language :facepalm:



Language is not the foundation, the foundation is in the experiment and observation.



Interesting. In my class, step 1 was stating the problem. Step 2 was formulating the hypothesis. Experiment and observation came later.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRiderOnTheStorm
Reject thug culture
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 1,855
Loc: Hug a hippie today
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19373021 - 01/05/14 01:30 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

RiderOnTheStorm said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
People should pursue science in the pursuit of useful ends like technological progress, medicine, etc., but it will not give you truth. It never will. Truth is something that individuals assign to propositions- it always has been that way,  and it always will be that way. If you don't understand how that works, take a Logic I course.




And people say that atheists are know it alls...



Quote:

If you don't understand how that works, take a Logic I course.







I don't need to understand the contextualization of truth within a logic course to know that the pursuit of truth is what has driven every significant scientific discovery from ancient astronomy to evolution. Go ahead and argue semantics of the definition of truth if you want, the fact is people use science to understand the material world as it is without our subjective filters interference, which is as close as anyone is getting to truth.

That the earth does not revolve around the sun, is a truth discovered by science. That human beings share a common ancestor with chimpanzees, is a truth discovered by science. That the universe is billions of years old and not thousands, is a truth discovered by science. That specific aspects of consciousness can be pinpointed to physical structures of the brain and predictably altered by stimuli, is a truth discovered by science. In time, the process of how abiogenesis happens will most likely also be a truth, discovered by science.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #19373040 - 01/05/14 01:33 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

That human beings share a common ancestor with chimpanzees, is a truth discovered by science


Way to slip that one in there :huxleyfacepalm:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRiderOnTheStorm
Reject thug culture
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 1,855
Loc: Hug a hippie today
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19373043 - 01/05/14 01:33 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

That human beings share a common ancestor with chimpanzees, is a truth discovered by science


Way to slip that one in there :huxleyfacepalm:



Do you deny that it's true?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #19373066 - 01/05/14 01:38 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

I always feel so embarrassed and ashamed to admit that I live in one of the only first-world countries where so many people believe still in creationism. It makes our nation a laughingstock, that the religious right has such strong power over our nation's beliefs.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleConfucian
...
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 1,741
Loc: USA Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19373069 - 01/05/14 01:39 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Yes, mathematics are very simple languages




Very simple languages? Do you even have a math background?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19373072 - 01/05/14 01:40 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
No, the reason I believe that science is language based is because scientific theories are formulated in language :facepalm: Mere Christianity is about Christianity. Try reading about language if you want to understand language. Stop drawing ridiculous conclusions from about about Christianity in an attempt to apply them to my understanding of science.



Mathematics are language.



Yes, mathematics are very simple languages that involve quantified predicate existential operators and definition operators.



Mathematics are more complex than any other human languages


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsi
TOAST N' JAM
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613 Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19373079 - 01/05/14 01:42 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

I would think the "vocabulary" of mathematics is far smaller than that of a language like English.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19373084 - 01/05/14 01:43 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
No, the reason I believe that science is language based is because scientific theories are formulated in language :facepalm: Mere Christianity is about Christianity. Try reading about language if you want to understand language. Stop drawing ridiculous conclusions from about about Christianity in an attempt to apply them to my understanding of science.



Mathematics are language.



Yes, mathematics are very simple languages that involve quantified predicate existential operators and definition operators.



Mathematics are more complex than any other human languages




This actually makes music the most complex language, since music is all mathematical theory. :tongue2:

Just picking on you cause I know you like to shit on the complexity of music. But actually, learning advanced music theory is said to be just as difficult as learning physics.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #19373086 - 01/05/14 01:44 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

I only accept propositions as true on as-needed basis for the purposes of drawing conclusions during argumentation. I do not have an epistemic structure of "true beliefs" which is constantly with me, ready to be hurled like ninjastars anytime one of my fellowmen threatens one them. I have been so sufficiently humbled by learning and experienced that I am willing to believe that just about anything is possible, and it doesn't seem necessary to accept that anything is true for longer than a few moments. I have not found that I am any less happy for having changed myself in this way. What I have found is that I am only "in agreement" with my fellows when I choose to be, because I really have no beliefs of my own. My arguments are generally too complex to be spoken without being prepared in advanced, so I often remain silent unless someone elicits my opinion on something, at which point I tend to simply tell them all the various perspectives with which I am familiar. It doesn't make for a sense of camaradarie, but I will say one thing: everyone I meet (in real life) seems to respect me. My students seem to try harder to do well than the students of other teachers; I encounter fewer of the problems I hear other TAs complaining about. Why? I would guess that it is because my students would feel bad about goofing off in my class, because they can feel that I genuinely care a lot. Maybe I am just insane. There are some who would probably call me that. In certain work environments I would probably have much more difficulty functioning without adapting my personality to be more like that of others.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: psi]
    #19373091 - 01/05/14 01:45 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

psi said:
I would think the "vocabulary" of mathematics is far smaller than that of a language like English.



These individuals who think that mathematics are a complicated languages are simply unfamiliar with formal syntax theories of natural language. Natural language is so much more complicated than any math that a comparison between the two is almost laughable.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: psi]
    #19373101 - 01/05/14 01:47 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

psi said:
I would think the "vocabulary" of mathematics is far smaller than that of a language like English.




I believe you are mistaken, I believe English has the greatest vocabulary of all languages and size of vocabulary is not necessarily a measure of complexity.  The rules are also important for that and English is known for not adhering to rules.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19373110 - 01/05/14 01:48 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

psi said:
I would think the "vocabulary" of mathematics is far smaller than that of a language like English.



These individuals who think that mathematics are a complicated languages are simply unfamiliar with formal syntax theories of natural language. Natural language is so much more complicated than any math that a comparison between the two is almost laughable.




ORLY? What do you know of topology?  What is your idea of complicated?  Not following the rules?

You are ignorant of the language of higher math.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19373118 - 01/05/14 01:49 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

psi said:
I would think the "vocabulary" of mathematics is far smaller than that of a language like English.



These individuals who think that mathematics are a complicated languages are simply unfamiliar with formal syntax theories of natural language. Natural language is so much more complicated than any math that a comparison between the two is almost laughable.




ORLY? What do you know of topology?  What is your idea of complicated?  Not following the rules?

You are ignorant of the language of higher math.



http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/damian.giaouris/pdf/various/Topology_for_dummies.pdf


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsi
TOAST N' JAM
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613 Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19373125 - 01/05/14 01:51 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

psi said:
I would think the "vocabulary" of mathematics is far smaller than that of a language like English.




I believe you are mistaken, I believe English has the greatest vocabulary of all languages and size of vocabulary is not necessarily a measure of complexity.  The rules are also important for that and English is known for not adhering to rules.




If English does not appear to adhere to many rules (or in other words the rules that exist have many exceptions,) would that not speak to even greater complexity than a system like mathematics designed to have very predictable rules?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: psi]
    #19373145 - 01/05/14 01:55 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

psi said:
I would think the "vocabulary" of mathematics is far smaller than that of a language like English.




I believe you are mistaken, I believe English has the greatest vocabulary of all languages and size of vocabulary is not necessarily a measure of complexity.  The rules are also important for that and English is known for not adhering to rules.




If English does not appear to adhere to many rules (or in other words the rules that exist have many exceptions,) would that not speak to even greater complexity than a system like mathematics designed to have very predictable rules?




I wouldn't say so.  I would say that it to speaks to just winging it.  The rules are actually pretty simple.  Most elementary school children learn them.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #19373148 - 01/05/14 01:55 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

psi said:
I would think the "vocabulary" of mathematics is far smaller than that of a language like English.



These individuals who think that mathematics are a complicated languages are simply unfamiliar with formal syntax theories of natural language. Natural language is so much more complicated than any math that a comparison between the two is almost laughable.




ORLY? What do you know of topology?  What is your idea of complicated?  Not following the rules?

You are ignorant of the language of higher math.



Nowhere near as complicated. All maths have defined rules and are therefore less complicated than natural language which does not have defined rules. Chomsky keeps trying to think that there are neurologically defined rules for language and that is why he comes up with ridiculous shit like this



But the theories will just get more and more complex and there will always be counterexamples. It doesn't matter how complicated your math is, if it's based on definitions (which all maths I know of are), then it's not as complicated as natural language.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #19373156 - 01/05/14 01:57 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

psi said:
I would think the "vocabulary" of mathematics is far smaller than that of a language like English.




I believe you are mistaken, I believe English has the greatest vocabulary of all languages and size of vocabulary is not necessarily a measure of complexity.  The rules are also important for that and English is known for not adhering to rules.




If English does not appear to adhere to many rules (or in other words the rules that exist have many exceptions,) would that not speak to even greater complexity than a system like mathematics designed to have very predictable rules?




I wouldn't say so.  I would say that it to speaks to just winging it.  The rules are actually pretty simple.  Most elementary school children learn them.



The prescriptive grammar rules. Those are just rules that help people learn how to use a language. Those aren't the fundamental language operators.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRiderOnTheStorm
Reject thug culture
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 1,855
Loc: Hug a hippie today
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19373170 - 01/05/14 02:01 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
I always feel so embarrassed and ashamed to admit that I live in one of the only first-world countries where so many people believe still in creationism. It makes our nation a laughingstock, that the religious right has such strong power over our nation's beliefs.




Agreed.

Quote:

morrowasted said:
I only accept propositions as true on as-needed basis for the purposes of drawing conclusions during argumentation. I do not have an epistemic structure of "true beliefs" which is constantly with me, ready to be hurled like ninjastars anytime one of my fellowmen threatens one them. I have been so sufficiently humbled by learning and experienced that I am willing to believe that just about anything is possible, and it doesn't seem necessary to accept that anything is true for longer than a few moments. I have not found that I am any less happy for having changed myself in this way. What I have found is that I am only "in agreement" with my fellows when I choose to be, because I really have no beliefs of my own. My arguments are generally too complex to be spoken without being prepared in advanced, so I often remain silent unless someone elicits my opinion on something, at which point I tend to simply tell them all the various perspectives with which I am familiar. It doesn't make for a sense of camaradarie, but I will say one thing: everyone I meet (in real life) seems to respect me. My students seem to try harder to do well than the students of other teachers; I encounter fewer of the problems I hear other TAs complaining about. Why? I would guess that it is because my students would feel bad about goofing off in my class, because they can feel that I genuinely care a lot. Maybe I am just insane. There are some who would probably call me that. In certain work environments I would probably have much more difficulty functioning without adapting my personality to be more like that of others.




What an eloquent way to dodge my question, you might do well in politics if you do decide to change work environments. After reading your description of how humble and likeable you are for your lack of positions or beliefs, I am convinced that my earlier suspicion was correct, you stay on the fence to appear taller than those of us with our feet on the ground. Good luck with that.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19373181 - 01/05/14 02:05 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Not having rules is complexity?  Most native speaking elementary school children can learn the English language quite well and speak it correctly almost 100% of the time.  They couldn't get near higher math.  The English language has 26 symbols.  Mathematics has far more

I really don't think you have any business at all opining on the complexity of mathematical language since you are clearly utterly ignorant of anything beyond plus, minus, times and gazzinta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mathematical_symbols


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleConfucian
...
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 1,741
Loc: USA Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19373187 - 01/05/14 02:05 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
I only accept propositions as true on as-needed basis for the purposes of drawing conclusions during argumentation. I do not have an epistemic structure of "true beliefs" which is constantly with me, ready to be hurled like ninjastars anytime one of my fellowmen threatens one them. I have been so sufficiently humbled by learning and experienced that I am willing to believe that just about anything is possible, and it doesn't seem necessary to accept that anything is true for longer than a few moments. I have not found that I am any less happy for having changed myself in this way. What I have found is that I am only "in agreement" with my fellows when I choose to be, because I really have no beliefs of my own. My arguments are generally too complex to be spoken without being prepared in advanced, so I often remain silent unless someone elicits my opinion on something, at which point I tend to simply tell them all the various perspectives with which I am familiar. It doesn't make for a sense of camaradarie, but I will say one thing: everyone I meet (in real life) seems to respect me. My students seem to try harder to do well than the students of other teachers; I encounter fewer of the problems I hear other TAs complaining about. Why? I would guess that it is because my students would feel bad about goofing off in my class, because they can feel that I genuinely care a lot. Maybe I am just insane. There are some who would probably call me that. In certain work environments I would probably have much more difficulty functioning without adapting my personality to be more like that of others.




TL;


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19373188 - 01/05/14 02:06 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not having rules is complexity?  Most native speaking elementary school children can learn the English language quite well and speak it correctly almost 100% of the time.  They couldn't get near higher math.  The English language has 26 symbols.  Mathematics has far more

I really don't think you have any business at all opining on the complexity of mathematical language since you are clearly utterly ignorant of anything beyond plus, minus, times and gazzinta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mathematical_symbols



You clearly don't understand what complexity is. Look, just take some classes on linguistics and logic (Math is quantified logic). . You are obviously not going to take me as an authority on this.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19373191 - 01/05/14 02:07 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:


What an eloquent way to dodge my question, you might do well in politics if you do decide to change work environments. After reading your description of how humble and likeable you are for your lack of positions or beliefs, I am convinced that my earlier suspicion was correct, you stay on the fence to appear taller than those of us with our feet on the ground. Good luck with that.




I was not dodging your question. You can easily infer from what I said that I am unsure about questions having to do with the origin of man.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19373205 - 01/05/14 02:12 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

It is apparent that none of you who ought to be listening to me think I am worth listening to; I am not going to waste my time. Just go to an institution of higher education and get educated. Read some books and educate yourself. Stop thinking you know so much. And don't for one second think that because I am telling you these things, I think that I know anything. I am just telling you what I have learned after devoting my life to learning. All of it could be wrong, but it is what I have been told by other people who have devoted their lives to learning as well.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleConfucian
...
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 1,741
Loc: USA Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19373212 - 01/05/14 02:14 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
It is apparent that none of you who ought to be listening to me think I am worth listening to; I am not going to waste my time. Just go to an institution of higher education and get educated. Read some books and educate yourself. Stop thinking you know so much. And don't for one second think that because I am telling you these things, I think that I know anything. I am just telling you what I have learned after devoting my life to learning. All of it could be wrong, but it is what I have been told by other people who have devoted their lives to learning as well.




Have you read any of Steven Pinker's books?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #19373220 - 01/05/14 02:16 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Ya, evolution seems fishy to me.
Some how only one species has evolved to the skill level that humans have.....  and that species is the humans.
HMMMMMM.



:facepalm:

Only one species has evolved to our "skill level?"  In what areas? There are plenty of animals that are faster than us, stronger than us, have better hearing, eyesight, and olfaction. The only realms in which we're unsurpassed are abstract thinking and tool-building- one of which might end up leading to the planet's destruction one day, which would be far from advantageous for the proliferation of the species.

There are no "levels" in evolution. It's not a staircase or ladder leading "up" to the "best" possible organism. What we call intelligence is not some divine trait all species strive towards and few achieve. It's just one among many evolutionary "strategies" and not objectively better than, say , a beetle's exoskeleton.

Before deciding that the bedrock of all modern biology seems "fishy" you should try to understand it better .


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19373221 - 01/05/14 02:17 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:


I believe you are mistaken, I believe English has the greatest vocabulary of all languages and size of vocabulary is not necessarily a measure of complexity.  The rules are also important for that and English is known for not adhering to rules.




If English does not appear to adhere to many rules (or in other words the rules that exist have many exceptions,) would that not speak to even greater complexity than a system like mathematics designed to have very predictable rules?




I wouldn't say so.  I would say that it to speaks to just winging it.  The rules are actually pretty simple.  Most elementary school children learn them.



The prescriptive grammar rules. Those are just rules that help people learn how to use a language. Those aren't the fundamental language operators.



Oh your one of those.  The prescriptive grammar rules are those that allow people who aren't in the exact same community to share a language.  In isolation they would all gradually evolve into a nonsense to anybody else creole.  I fail to see that the descriptive use is any more complex.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: NetDiver]
    #19373224 - 01/05/14 02:18 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Ya, evolution seems fishy to me.
Some how only one species has evolved to the skill level that humans have.....  and that species is the humans.
HMMMMMM.



:facepalm:

Only one species has evolved to our "skill level?"  In what areas? There are plenty of animals that are faster than us, stronger than us, have better hearing, eyesight, and olfaction. The only realms in which we're unsurpassed are abstract thinking and tool-building- one of which might end up leading to the planet's destruction one day, which would be far from advantageous for the proliferation of the species.

There are no "levels" in evolution. It's not a staircase or ladder leading "up" to the "best" possible organism. What we call intelligence is not some divine trait all species strive towards and few achieve. It's just one among many evolutionary "strategies" and not objectively better than, say , a beetle's exoskeleton.

Before deciding that the bedrock of all modern biology seems "fishy" you should try to understand it better .




Also language

Humans are no more evolved than ants but we are better at quite a few things than any other species.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19373254 - 01/05/14 02:27 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Come to think of it, all of you atheists should just take a damn logic class.

It never hurt any one to take a logic class.


While you're at it, read a whole bunch of fucking books. Non-fiction books. Academic level non-fiction books, none of that pop science garbage that Dawkins has been churning out for the last 15 years. Hell, if you're an atheist and you want to read a decent book by an atheist, read Anthony Flew. The sad thing is that even though I'm not an atheist I'm probably more familiar with atheist arguments than 95% of the atheists I meet. Most of them are atheists because they're mad at mommy and daddy or even God himself (which makes absolutely no sense at all, but I run into it all the time).

And yeah, I am kind of pissy. I recently quit doing drugs and so I'm not high and giggly all the time. I'm actually really content, and I have a lot of time to get work done now. One of the things that is happening is that I'm realizing how much time I wasted being a lazy fuckoff when I was doing drugs all the time. Now, I'm not in a position to judge, but I've seen the CA thread. I'm just going to leave it at that. Don't be surprised if my presence on this forum gradually (or even abruptly) diminishes in the near future. I'm sure I won't be missed; whatever.





Well I am not an atheist so if you are directing that toward em at all the comment is irrelevant. I have read plenty of academic level non-fiction books and I still think you come across as a holier-than-thou know it all who thinks he is better than others. Of course that is just my impression, which is subjective, and I could be way off base. Regardless, science CAN prove things as truth whether or not you would like to accept that. And of course our communication of science is limited by language, but the actual study and experimentation of science includes many other factors other than language.

And it is really a lazy ass cop out to blame your pissyness on drug use or the lack thereof. I use drugs, strictly psychedelics and cannabis, and I still find all of the time I need to get things done and not be a lazy fuck. That is just not my personality. And I do not get pissy just because I go without drugs for a while. You say you are not in a position to judge, yet you do anyway


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19373348 - 01/05/14 02:49 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
No, the reason I believe that science is language based is because scientific theories are formulated in language :facepalm:



Language is not the foundation, the foundation is in the experiment and observation.



Interesting. In my class, step 1 was stating the problem. Step 2 was formulating the hypothesis. Experiment and observation came later.




Yeah no shit sherlock. That is because experimentation and observation is what PROVE the hypothesis. Physically experimenting and observing the results of those experiments are not based in language. And experimentation and observation are a lot more important the unproven hypothesis.

You sure dodge a lot of questions, you pick and choos what you want to answer, ignoring posts that you cannot find a good argument for



Quote:

I have been so sufficiently humbled



:laugh2:


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19375287 - 01/05/14 11:25 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Oh your one of those.  The prescriptive grammar rules are those that allow people who aren't in the exact same community to share a language.  In isolation they would all gradually evolve into a nonsense to anybody else creole.  I fail to see that the descriptive use is any more complex.




Apparently apes are capable of processing language at rudimentary levels, they simply do not have the throat development to produce the guttural sounds required to formulate words in speech. However, chimps and gorillas have been successful at sign language. Look up koko the signing gorilla. She creates complete sentences and has back and forth conversations with her professor, Penny. She can also convey emotions and memories, such as signing how sad she felt when her pet kitten died.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNotTheDevil
Transhuman


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 5,436
Loc: US Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19375293 - 01/05/14 11:30 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not having rules is complexity?  Most native speaking elementary school children can learn the English language quite well and speak it correctly almost 100% of the time.  They couldn't get near higher math.  The English language has 26 symbols.  Mathematics has far more

I really don't think you have any business at all opining on the complexity of mathematical language since you are clearly utterly ignorant of anything beyond plus, minus, times and gazzinta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mathematical_symbols



Our brains are designed for language, this does not make language less complex. In fact like most things language can be described mathematically and is more complex than most, but not all math.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19375307 - 01/05/14 11:37 PM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not having rules is complexity?  Most native speaking elementary school children can learn the English language quite well and speak it correctly almost 100% of the time.  They couldn't get near higher math.  The English language has 26 symbols.  Mathematics has far more

I really don't think you have any business at all opining on the complexity of mathematical language since you are clearly utterly ignorant of anything beyond plus, minus, times and gazzinta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mathematical_symbols




I think morrow is talking about a higher level of english. Basic english yes, its not that hard
But have you ever picked up a book written by hegel? Even many college graduates cannot understand that level of written language. I've read lots of political philosophy, and even I found hegel supremely difficult to read. Only graduate students who have been trained can read something on that level. But the same does apply to advanced calculus as well.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOldHam
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 1,566
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19375446 - 01/06/14 12:46 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

Not reading 5 pages of debate, but once my friend Zappaisgod gets involved....


--------------------
The Shallows, Chapter 7, Nicholas Carr


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: OldHam] * 1
    #19376463 - 01/06/14 09:10 AM (10 years, 25 days ago)

crystal G, go smoke more crack. the rest of you, fuck off and read a book. I am done with this discussion.


FYI just because something is easier to learn does not make it less complex. you just don't understand neurolinguistics and that is okay. it's because you don't try to. just go do more drugs and fuck your life off some more.



Edited by morrowasted (01/06/14 09:21 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #19376858 - 01/06/14 11:18 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
crystal G, go smoke more crack. the rest of you, fuck off and read a book. I am done with this discussion.


FYI just because something is easier to learn does not make it less complex. you just don't understand neurolinguistics and that is okay. it's because you don't try to. just go do more drugs and fuck your life off some more.







Lol that is the second time you have said you were finished with this discussion lmfao.

Just because people do not agree with your veiws does not mean they have not read books or are not educated. You are just a naive know-it-all who thinks everyone has to agree with you or they are somehow less intelligent.

And just because drugs made YOU fuck your life off does not mean everyone who does any drugs will be the same. Some people actually have common sense and a sense of responsibility, unlike yourself


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19377058 - 01/06/14 12:09 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
crystal G, go smoke more crack. the rest of you, fuck off and read a book. I am done with this discussion.




Awe, I'm flattered. You didn't tell me to go read a book. You think I'm a well-read crackhead. :awesome:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleConfucian
...
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 1,741
Loc: USA Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19377175 - 01/06/14 12:57 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
crystal G, go smoke more crack. the rest of you, fuck off and read a book. I am done with this discussion.




What's the matter - you don't want to talk about linguistics anymore - LOL



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEnvix
Avoidant Disorder
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 18,206
Last seen: 9 months, 24 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Confucian]
    #19381547 - 01/07/14 09:43 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

god damn i left for 2 days and this thread has turned into an 11-page battle of the egos. can't say i'm surprised :awesome:


--------------------
smack a hoe out this dimension
continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie

rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
Other

Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Envix]
    #19381557 - 01/07/14 09:46 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

When it comes to how much anyone knows about what's going on its never short and rarely civil.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEnvix
Avoidant Disorder
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 18,206
Last seen: 9 months, 24 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #19381588 - 01/07/14 09:56 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

to make an attempt to bring the topic back on board (lol wut?), ...

i don't think it makes much sense to logically analyze an inherently illogical problem.

that ends that argument.

now, back to the original topic. Bill Nye will only attract the attention of those who want to listen. so will the creationist side. those who will listen most likely ALREADY HAVE a formulated opinion on the matter, and their chances of changing their stance based on the debate is likely none.

therefore, this debate will do nothing but stroke the egos of those who will choose to listen to only the parts they want to hear, and respond in the ways they were going to anyway.

this is because people do not want to listen to others. people only want to listen to themselves. people only want to state their opinions on the matter, and hear others restate them. and keep re-stating and re-stating and re-stating until they've convinced themselves that their way is the only correct way, and this causes conflict which is pretty obvious. i wonder what would happen if people were to openly listen, completely and fully, BEFORE forming an opinion...

anyway, it's none of my business. continue the bickering :otd:


--------------------
smack a hoe out this dimension
continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie

rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b


Edited by Envix (01/07/14 10:06 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
Other

Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Envix]
    #19381605 - 01/07/14 10:01 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Meh who cares, both sides are gonna pull the same shit. For all we know we could've been seeded by sooper advanced aliens with crazy propulsion systems. It's completely possible to create something that will evolve over time. Or this is just some simulation based in the "true" reality that something set initial conditions for and triggered. Who the hell knows really :shrug:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsi
TOAST N' JAM
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613 Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Envix]
    #19381608 - 01/07/14 10:02 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Envix said:
Bill Nye will only attract the attention of those who want to listen. so will the creationist side. those who will listen most likely ALREADY HAVE a formulated opinion on the matter, and their chances of changing their stance based on the debate is likely none.




Not necessarily true, there's no way of knowing for certain what kind of audience will tune in. A lot may not have looked into the topic much at all.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEnvix
Avoidant Disorder
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 18,206
Last seen: 9 months, 24 days
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: psi]
    #19381642 - 01/07/14 10:12 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

could be, but at least in that case it would also serve to inform those who are willing to listen, yet until that point were ignorant on the issue. in that case, whatever stance they choose from that point would be based in open information.

whether that information would sway what they were going to choose anyway is completely unknowable, so there's no sense in arguing about that.

maybe one day computer/cognitive sciences will become advanced enough to make mind control as easy as downloading apps for your smartphones. then we will be able to convince anyone of anything by just sending them a virus via brain-mail


--------------------
smack a hoe out this dimension
continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie

rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Confucian]
    #19381653 - 01/07/14 10:15 AM (10 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Confucian said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
crystal G, go smoke more crack. the rest of you, fuck off and read a book. I am done with this discussion.




What's the matter - you don't want to talk about linguistics anymore - LOL





Do you have a background in Neurophys? Are you even interested in linguistics?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsi
TOAST N' JAM
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613 Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Envix]
    #19382214 - 01/07/14 12:27 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Envix said:
could be, but at least in that case it would also serve to inform those who are willing to listen, yet until that point were ignorant on the issue. in that case, whatever stance they choose from that point would be based in open information.

whether that information would sway what they were going to choose anyway is completely unknowable, so there's no sense in arguing about that.




I agree with that. I'd say that it's worthwhile if people watching are learning something, whether or not they necessarily change their initial stance.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleConfucian
...
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 1,741
Loc: USA Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: psi]
    #19383270 - 01/07/14 03:50 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

How does one learn about "I'm too dumb to learn science so I'll just say gawd did it" Creationism?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Confucian]
    #19383300 - 01/07/14 03:55 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Confucian said:
How does one learn about "I'm too dumb to learn science so I'll just say gawd did it" Creationism?



There are lots of different metaphysical ideas.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19383330 - 01/07/14 04:00 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

Confucian said:
How does one learn about "I'm too dumb to learn science so I'll just say gawd did it" Creationism?



There are lots of different metaphysical ideas.




Allegedly . . .

None that really hold any credence to the real world. Haven't you said a couple time that you were done with this discussion?


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepsi
TOAST N' JAM
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613 Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Confucian]
    #19383333 - 01/07/14 04:01 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Confucian said:
How does one learn about "I'm too dumb to learn science so I'll just say gawd did it" Creationism?




By reading or watching/listening to materials on the topic I suppose. I was thinking more in terms of people being ignorant of evolutionary theory and learning about it though.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19383339 - 01/07/14 04:02 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Then I get some sleep and I'm recharged. Anyhow I'm not nearly as angry as I was.

I understand why most people have a hard time getting pasting evolution vs Bible and most of the time it doesn't bother me.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19383346 - 01/07/14 04:04 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

The idea I am currently toying with has to do with words being the first ontological object and there being an inverse correlation between the number of words and their relatively creative efficacy.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
Other

Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19383668 - 01/07/14 04:54 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Is this that thing where it's like you come up with a word for something like a tree. Suddenly you need a word for one, a specific, multiples past present this and that. Boom, fucking complexity and understandimg. Fascinating stuff man.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: Crystal G]
    #19383709 - 01/07/14 05:01 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not having rules is complexity?  Most native speaking elementary school children can learn the English language quite well and speak it correctly almost 100% of the time.  They couldn't get near higher math.  The English language has 26 symbols.  Mathematics has far more

I really don't think you have any business at all opining on the complexity of mathematical language since you are clearly utterly ignorant of anything beyond plus, minus, times and gazzinta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mathematical_symbols




I think morrow is talking about a higher level of english. Basic english yes, its not that hard
But have you ever picked up a book written by hegel? Even many college graduates cannot understand that level of written language. I've read lots of political philosophy, and even I found hegel supremely difficult to read. Only graduate students who have been trained can read something on that level. But the same does apply to advanced calculus as well.



The only book I ever tried to read that was ostensibly in English but found utterly incomprehensible was by Joyce.  Ulysses, to be precise.  Hve not attempted Hegel.  Will see if I can find some snippets.

The calculus is not the pinnacle of math complexity by a long shot.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 16,712
Last seen: 12 hours, 39 minutes
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19383734 - 01/07/14 05:04 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Algebra is the pinnacle of math.


--------------------
:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19383743 - 01/07/14 05:05 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Checked him out.  He is a Flying Spaghetti Monster guy


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #19383745 - 01/07/14 05:05 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Algebra is the pinnacle of math.



For you.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 16,712
Last seen: 12 hours, 39 minutes
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19383929 - 01/07/14 05:33 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

This is true.


--------------------
:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #19384423 - 01/07/14 07:00 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

You can think about the complexity of something like this: If you were to make a physics which could make predictive laws about its behavior, on what order of magnitude would the calculations be? Mathematics, because they adhere to systems of rule-based definitions or inference rules that are made explicit prior to all instances of inference therefrom, would be describable in a physics that uses linear calculations, and thus can never be as complex as language. Language requires something like a quantum physics to predictively characterize its behavior using mathematical models.

Complexity is not related to how difficult something was for you to learn or is for you to use. Our brains are hard-wired to do 99% of the complex calculations involved in language use, but simple mathematics like arithmetic is not hard-wired into our brains. Noam Chomsky dedicated his entire linguistics career to attempting to describe complements of the portion of the system that is hard-wired into the brain.


Edited by morrowasted (01/07/14 07:28 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 16,712
Last seen: 12 hours, 39 minutes
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384685 - 01/07/14 07:48 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

What's the pinnacle of math for you zappaisgod?


--------------------
:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #19384703 - 01/07/14 07:51 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

I find topology utterly incomprehensible.  Chaos theory.  I'm sure there are other fields I don't even know about.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384740 - 01/07/14 07:57 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Chaos theory is not that complex in any sense of the word :rolleyes:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
Trance in my sig n blood
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 16,712
Last seen: 12 hours, 39 minutes
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19384754 - 01/07/14 08:00 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I find topology utterly incomprehensible.  Chaos theory.  I'm sure there are other fields I don't even know about.




I'm not sure you know what pinnacle means.
It means the high point.
You think something you don't even understand is the high point of math?
I don't see that logic.
Algebra, on the other hand, changed the world as we know it.
Thus, I think algebra is the pinnacle of math.


--------------------
:rave::rave::rave: I dropped a trance track "Peace Love & Trance": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4uQBM-mRYU ; :raver2::raver2::raver2::raveface:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineThe Vapor
Lost In A Tea Daze


Registered: 03/22/10
Posts: 8,433
Loc: Misty Mountains, B.C. Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19384773 - 01/07/14 08:03 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Chaos theory is not that complex in any sense of the word :rolleyes:




Lol, okay. I'm sure you can handle all the math behind the concepts with ease.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMagicman69
All About the Benjamins
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 6,876
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: The Vapor]
    #19384794 - 01/07/14 08:08 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

The Vapor said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Chaos theory is not that complex in any sense of the word :rolleyes:




Lol, okay. I'm sure you can handle all the math behind the concepts with ease.



Probably does the calculations in his head. Is that you Stephen Hawking? :lol:


Edited by Magicman69 (01/07/14 08:09 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19387444 - 01/08/14 11:02 AM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
You can think about the complexity of something like this: If you were to make a physics which could make predictive laws about its behavior, on what order of magnitude would the calculations be? Mathematics, because they adhere to systems of rule-based definitions or inference rules that are made explicit prior to all instances of inference therefrom, would be describable in a physics that uses linear calculations, and thus can never be as complex as language. Language requires something like a quantum physics to predictively characterize its behavior using mathematical models.

Complexity is not related to how difficult something was for you to learn or is for you to use. Our brains are hard-wired to do 99% of the complex calculations involved in language use, but simple mathematics like arithmetic is not hard-wired into our brains. Noam Chomsky dedicated his entire linguistics career to attempting to describe complements of the portion of the system that is hard-wired into the brain.





I recommend these books for anyone seeking to further understand this process:

The Neuroscience of Language: On Brain Circuits of Words and Serial Order (Cambridge Companions to Philosophy)



The Biolinguistic Enterprise: New Perspectives on the Evolution and Nature of the Human Language Faculty





Edited by morrowasted (01/08/14 11:16 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19387971 - 01/08/14 12:31 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted]
    #19387975 - 01/08/14 12:32 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

:derail:


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 12 hours
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19387993 - 01/08/14 12:38 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
:derail:



cliffs: zappa vastly misunderstands the concept of complexity







Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #19528963 - 02/06/14 05:10 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)



--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleschwarg
Male


Registered: 07/15/12
Posts: 2,817
Loc: San Diego Flag
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19528968 - 02/06/14 05:15 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

What the hell is this thread even about now.......fucking intellectuals...


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: ‘Science Guy’ Bill Nye plans debate on Creation Museum [Re: schwarg]
    #19529050 - 02/06/14 05:55 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Lol no shit . . .


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* What are your NYE plans? Adom 826 8 12/22/02 06:16 AM
by oDin
* NYE plans just went to hell Adom 749 6 12/21/03 06:09 PM
by Randolph_Carter
* The Dead NYE setlists? boredboy 1,003 8 01/04/04 06:26 PM
by boredboy
* Bill Graham drops acid
( 1 2 3 all )
LearyfanS 9,791 50 01/07/05 04:14 PM
by Hooty
* Bill Nye The Science guy - Below par
( 1 2 all )
SourceLimit 3,383 36 12/08/05 05:18 PM
by SourceLimit
* BILL GATES: A REAL JERK
( 1 2 3 4 ... 10 11 all )
cannabinated 2,709 211 08/20/21 03:51 AM
by Warrk
* Concert Plans
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Adom 9,823 66 05/26/03 06:35 PM
by Delyrium
* Bill Hicks
( 1 2 all )
Adom 7,101 32 06/05/03 03:55 PM
by Xlea321

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Entire Staff
13,794 topic views. 2 members, 40 guests and 18 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.123 seconds spending 0.016 seconds on 14 queries.