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Fractal420
Psycellium



Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 5,913
Last seen: 9 months, 9 days
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Next logical step after PF
#19360822 - 01/02/14 09:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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After 2 successful PF jar projects, I was curious about what the next step in learning about mycology and improving practices should be, and after some reading and thought, it seems to be either casing with verm, using wbs pints, or spawn bags. I'm personally very interested in less obvious methods, and things like the mad bag appeal to me. But I seem to hear mixed things about in vitro. It seems like a great way to keep the project minimal which is ideal to my situation, but how well do "mad bags" do compared to PF jars for example? Do they really provide a good environment on their own or should one keep it in their SGFC with perlite? Do they do better if open or used as spawn?
Just trying to advance my mycological methods, and wondering the best way to go forward and whether in vitro is worth a shot or whether straight to casings/bulk. You guys taught me everything I needed thus far 
I was planning on using a PE LC to try out the bag tek, but I hear spores work well too
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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles



Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: Fractal420]
#19360852 - 01/02/14 09:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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If a method of growth interests you give it a shot. The more you try the more you will learn.
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,404
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: MudaFuka]
#19360871 - 01/02/14 09:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Agar with strain isolation to wild bird seed spawned to coconut coir and vermiculite in a monotub cased with your choice of casing material.
EDIT: Also the monotub thing doesn't have to be a 'full size' monotub. You can isolate a strain on no pour agar cooked in a food storage container then isolate a strain and colonize one or two jars or one mad bag. I wouldn't fruit in the bag. I would spawn it to a minimontub.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
Edited by elasticaltiger (01/02/14 09:40 PM)
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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles



Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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if you are going to do agar check out Pastywhite's agar tek.
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Fractal420
Psycellium



Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 5,913
Last seen: 9 months, 9 days
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: MudaFuka]
#19361199 - 01/02/14 10:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I want to explore something a bit stealthy which is why the self-contained "mad bag" has me interested. Also, cakes can take a long time to fruit, with the last ones flushing in the double digits, which is why I thought of doing a casing if not a spawn bag
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MudaFuka
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Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: Fractal420]
#19361212 - 01/02/14 10:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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when you say casing do you mean spawning to bulk and then adding a casing layer?
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,811
Loc: Canada
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: MudaFuka]
#19361235 - 01/02/14 11:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Fractal420 said: I want to explore something a bit stealthy which is why the self-contained "mad bag" has me interested. Also, cakes can take a long time to fruit, with the last ones flushing in the double digits, which is why I thought of doing a casing if not a spawn bag
You will still need a light, and fruiting invitro usually gives poor results. Stealth and growing mushrooms don't really go that well together. If you really need stealth look into sclerotia.
Quote:
elasticaltiger said: EDIT: Also the monotub thing doesn't have to be a 'full size' monotub. You can isolate a strain on no pour agar cooked in a food storage container then isolate a strain and colonize one or two jars or one mad bag. I wouldn't fruit in the bag. I would spawn it to a minimontub.
^^^This. I have a bunch of 20 quart monotubs and they are great. Could fit under a bed or into a closet easily, really they won't take up much more room than your bag, but you will see better results in the end. This was 1.5 quarts of spawn and 2 quarts sub.

Quote:
MudaFuka said: if you are going to do agar check out Pastywhite's agar tek.
Its as easy as pf tek for sure
Edited by Pastywhyte (01/02/14 11:16 PM)
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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles



Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19361262 - 01/02/14 11:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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sorry I spelled your name wrong Pasty.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,811
Loc: Canada
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: MudaFuka]
#19361269 - 01/02/14 11:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MudaFuka said: sorry I spelled your name wrong Pasty.
Lots of people do
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,404
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19361324 - 01/02/14 11:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Pasty when you say 1.5 quarts of spawn do you mean 3 jars of grain 1/2 full? or two jars 2/3 full? or 1 and 1/2 'regular amount of grain in a spawn jar' jars. lol does that make sense? Are you trying to accurately measure the amount of grain or is it 1 and 1/2 jars worth where each jar is not completely full?
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
Edited by elasticaltiger (01/02/14 11:35 PM)
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,811
Loc: Canada
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Naw, I usually fill my quarts about 2/3 to 3/4 full. When I did that tub I did another one just like it and took 3 quarts that were 2/3 to 3/4 full and split them between the two tubs. So in essence 1.5 quarts was probably like 1.2 quarts or so.
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,404
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19361346 - 01/02/14 11:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Naw, I usually fill my quarts about 2/3 to 3/4 full. When I did that tub I did another one just like it and took 3 quarts that were 2/3 to 3/4 full and split them between the two tubs. So in essence 1.5 quarts was probably like 1.2 quarts or so.
I am so happy you understood what I was trying to ask. This was the answer I was looking for. Thank you.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
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Fractal420
Psycellium



Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 5,913
Last seen: 9 months, 9 days
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: MudaFuka]
#19362666 - 01/03/14 10:08 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MudaFuka said: when you say casing do you mean spawning to bulk and then adding a casing layer?
Yes, it seems the ways to go forward are either to use spawn/grain and using a tray with 50/50. Some people seem to progress by breaking up their PF jars and casing those if I'm not mistaken (once they are fully colonized), some switch to WBS or straw, but it seems the casing layer is an important step, and so far I'm only really familiar with the SGFC and cakes. I've become pretty good at rolling, dunking, setting all that stuff up.
Oh, and I don't mind the 6500k light, I can set that up in a closet on a timer. If in vitro isn't a good option I won't really use it, or at least not without the knowledge to open and fruit it using casing if its not working out. What happens if one leaves spawn bags in the FC? They would have the humidity they need, but is the bag climate not good enough? I've heard some noob talk (I'm a noob too I guess) about "2 ounces per mad bag" which seems decent if using a lot of them (I only state the two ounce thing as an example, I know how variable it can actually be). The thing that got me interested in the bags is they seem to have a lot of substrate at once, pre-sterilized, cheap, and seems to have potential. However like I said, I'm just trying to do whatever wouldn't be too out of reach from PF jars, but something that would still teach me. I'm starting to think monotub.
I've been reading some info on the subject and finished that "let's grow mushrooms" video, right after PF it seems to jump into casing layers, and then straw.
Question: why agar strain isolation? I don't really mind MS syringes from our friends, have worked out very well in the past, and I managed one LC from PE (original...as in not PE#6)
Edited by Fractal420 (01/03/14 10:14 AM)
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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles



Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: Fractal420]
#19362713 - 01/03/14 10:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you are growing cubs a casing layer isn't necessary, though many people use one with success. You can yield more using WBS than crumbled cakes for spawn. Grains are also great because they let you do G2G transfers giving you the ability to make as much spawn as you can handle. I would spawn to an 80:20 coir verm sub with just a hand full of gypsum.Use a spawn to sub ratio between 1:2 and 1:4. A mono tub is likely your best option for an FC. putting smaller tubs in a SGFC is an option but the tubs can sometimes restrict air flow within the SGFC. Agar is better than MS because it gives consistent growth. When you use spores you are working with potentially millions of different genetics.
Edited by MudaFuka (01/03/14 10:24 AM)
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Fractal420
Psycellium



Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 5,913
Last seen: 9 months, 9 days
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: MudaFuka]
#19362869 - 01/03/14 11:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I also just saw this pic, (it's NOT my pic, I was surfing other entries) and found this interesting:

So, like this person, I'm curious, why not just put a bunch of trays in the shotgun? Seems to be working well and probably not that much harder than cakes in a shotgun. It also seems like it would all grow at once instead of constantly harvesting cakes (the only problem with this is the time it takes sometimes, I spent 3 months babysitting my BRF cakes last time as they flushed and flushed, and this isn't a problem, but quicker is better to me... I am speaking about just fruiting, I don't mind waiting for colonization, but when fruiting can't really go out for a weekend, etc).
What would be the downside of this tray in SG thing vs monotub? I already have a very nice SG ready, and I'm not opposed to making a monotub, I'm just wondering what's the difference between these two teks? I know Mudafucka said it could reduce air flow?
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Deckard_Cain
Mystic


Registered: 09/25/13
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Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: Fractal420]
#19362943 - 01/03/14 11:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'll also say agar (or agar like mediums). What you inoculate with the agar is up to you but it is certainly a large step in studying mycology.
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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles



Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: Fractal420]
#19362989 - 01/03/14 11:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Fractal420 said: I also just saw this pic, (it's NOT my pic, I was surfing other entries) and found this interesting:

So, like this person, I'm curious, why not just put a bunch of trays in the shotgun? Seems to be working well and probably not that much harder than cakes in a shotgun. It also seems like it would all grow at once instead of constantly harvesting cakes (the only problem with this is the time it takes sometimes, I spent 3 months babysitting my BRF cakes last time as they flushed and flushed, and this isn't a problem, but quicker is better to me... I am speaking about just fruiting, I don't mind waiting for colonization, but when fruiting can't really go out for a weekend, etc).
What would be the downside of this tray in SG thing vs monotub? I already have a very nice SG ready, and I'm not opposed to making a monotub, I'm just wondering what's the difference between these two teks? I know Mudafucka said it could reduce air flow?
small trays like that are fine in a SGFC its just when they get bigger that they become a problem.
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loki44
non serviam



Registered: 08/01/13
Posts: 225
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: Fractal420]
#19363043 - 01/03/14 11:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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OP I was in the same situation as you, did 2 successful PF-tek grows and what I did is just jumped into monotubs
got myself:
-2 dozen quart jars -SFDs + vacutainers and rtv silicone(for the lids) -rye berries from health food store -prepared a GLC and inoculate on SAB
end up with 23 quart jars of grain spawn
then get coir from the pet store and verm for your bulk substrate, hydrate to field capacity, pasteurize and then mix it with you fully colonized grain spawn, bang got 3 monotubs going
it may look like is more difficult than pf-tek but is not , just a couple steps more here and there
dont listen to people trying to get you into agar isolates, that will really complicate the issue because you need not only to prepare a shitload of petris but also you got to test which ones are good fruiters/good potency on cakes
no wonder new growers get discouraged to jump into bulk grows
just go with GLC and MS inoculations and you will be fine
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Fractal420
Psycellium



Registered: 06/21/13
Posts: 5,913
Last seen: 9 months, 9 days
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: loki44]
#19363140 - 01/03/14 12:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
loki44 said: OP I was in the same situation as you, did 2 successful PF-tek grows and what I did is just jumped into monotubs
got myself:
-2 dozen quart jars -SFDs + vacutainers and rtv silicone(for the lids) -rye berries from health food store -prepared a GLC and inoculate on SAB
end up with 23 quart jars of grain spawn
then get coir from the pet store and verm for your bulk substrate, hydrate to field capacity, pasteurize and then mix it with you fully colonized grain spawn, bang got 3 monotubs going
it may look like is more difficult than pf-tek but is not , just a couple steps more here and there
dont listen to people trying to get you into agar isolates, that will really complicate the issue because you need not only to prepare a shitload of petris but also you got to test which ones are good fruiters/good potency on cakes
no wonder new growers get discouraged to jump into bulk grows
just go with GLC and MS inoculations and you will be fine
I like this advice and I see no real problem in using syringes, seems the only thing that changes with agar is genetics. Can someone clear this up if there is any real advantage besides simply isolating one race of cube? To me cubes are cubes as long as they're taken care of well and come from a good place. Also what's a GLC, I don't recognize the acronym but I know what a liquid culture is. Can't one simply just use MS syringes? What's the issue with that if there is one?
-------------------- Dreaming of That face again. It's bright and blue and shimmering. Grinning wide And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes. Prying open MY third eye
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: Next logical step after PF [Re: Fractal420]
#19363169 - 01/03/14 12:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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clean cultures,better storage,awesome expanding,cheap,easy,shroomery approved...agar in a nutshell
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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