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InvisibleFunkMasterShroom
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SSRI's and Tryptamines
    #17789658 - 02/12/13 02:35 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

So this is really boggling my mind..
Considering that SSRI's inhibit some action of the reuptake of Seretonin within the brain, doesnt it seem logical that if one where to take a dose of Tryptamines (causing more action with seretonin receptors) and then during (or possibly shortly after) the trip, taking an SSRI (particularly that relates to the specific seretonin receptor/s that the Tryptamines are effecting- therefor inhibiting the reuptake of the seretonin that was influneced from the tryptamine)- that the Trip would not only be extended, but potentially enhanced(potentiated)?

I'm very confused..
I understand how an MAOI works for potentiation.. but wouldnt an SSRI work in it's own way as well? (when taken during/after a trip)


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Why did the chicken cross the road?
To get to the other side.

"Adapt.
Adjust.
Accommodate."

"Professional help is being thought." - Bill Hicks

It would be hilarious... if it wasn't so sad...

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OfflineSulfurshelfsean
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Re: SSRI's and Tryptamines [Re: FunkMasterShroom]
    #17789698 - 02/12/13 02:40 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I was on lexapro for a year and couldnt trip on anything, taking ssris and tryptamines is a waste of tryptamines IME.


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Everything is better when it is done ON TOP OF A MOUNTAIN!

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InvisibleFunkMasterShroom
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Re: SSRI's and Tryptamines [Re: Sulfurshelfsean]
    #17789803 - 02/12/13 03:00 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Well, yes.. I would suggest re-reading my post, and perhaps with a little more attention to detail this time..
As I am fully aware of the effects of having been using SSRI's for a period of time, or even taking them before a Tryptamine trip, that the Serotonin is already in your brain, not being reuptaken.. So there isnt much to even be released from the Tryptamine to begin with..
But I am strictly talking about taking it during/after the trip- since it will inhibit the reuptake of the Seretonin, should that not extend/potentiate a trip?

I'm looking for an informed chemistry based answer.. Not just anecdotal subjective experience..
But thanks anyway..


--------------------
Why did the chicken cross the road?
To get to the other side.

"Adapt.
Adjust.
Accommodate."

"Professional help is being thought." - Bill Hicks

It would be hilarious... if it wasn't so sad...

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OfflineSulfurshelfsean
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Re: SSRI's and Tryptamines [Re: FunkMasterShroom]
    #17789843 - 02/12/13 03:05 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

No, it will probably negate it or have no effect as most ssris take time to build up in your bloodstream. Also if they took effect during your trip, you would probably just stop tripping. If you've been on the SSRIs for a while theyre already built up in your system and you'd be wasting your time taking psychedellics at all. My second acid trip was while I was on said lexapro, I took 8 hits to get on the level with everyone who took two, i tried up to a 1/4 of mushrooms with no effects, and all kinds of e pills and molly with little to nothing and whatever experiences i did have lasting up to only about an hour. In short, no it would not extend your trip. But yeah im no chemist, sorry i couldnt help, and good luck.


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Everything is better when it is done ON TOP OF A MOUNTAIN!

Edited by Sulfurshelfsean (02/12/13 03:07 PM)

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InvisibleFunkMasterShroom
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Re: SSRI's and Tryptamines [Re: Sulfurshelfsean]
    #17790010 - 02/12/13 03:21 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

I was on welbutrin in the past, and yea, mushrooms did barely anything at all- I already require 4-6grams for full immersion, typically I like taking more then that even, and having to double that is just getting ridiculous.

But just consider the mechanism of action- It inhibits the reuptake of Serotonin, the very serotonin that tryptamines cause action in.. I understand the concept that it doesnt work, but I would like to understand why- when logic seems to entail that it should potentiate the tryptamine effect..???

Again, need input- chemistry details, notsomuch subjective experience.

And consider something like Zoloft, it may take time for it to cause the anti-depressant effects it is typically prescribed for(like most/all SSRI's), but there is still a definitive action within the brain from even a single small dose, albeit a small action- It is still going to inhibit the reuptake of some Serotonin- and if you were to take a rather large single dose- the effects become quite apparent to anyone who has tried it..


--------------------
Why did the chicken cross the road?
To get to the other side.

"Adapt.
Adjust.
Accommodate."

"Professional help is being thought." - Bill Hicks

It would be hilarious... if it wasn't so sad...

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OfflineSulfurshelfsean
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Re: SSRI's and Tryptamines [Re: FunkMasterShroom]
    #17790052 - 02/12/13 03:26 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Yes finding out the mechanisms behind such things often intrigue me too, I'll be watching this post like a hawk. :thumbup:


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Everything is better when it is done ON TOP OF A MOUNTAIN!

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InvisibleDawks
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Re: SSRI's and Tryptamines [Re: FunkMasterShroom]
    #17790172 - 02/12/13 03:41 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

No OP. MAOIs potentiate and extend that trip for the very reason you said. The absence of the MAO causes a buildup of serotonin AND the psychedelic in the synaptic cleft which makes you trip longer, harder and more intensely.

SSRIs on the other hand work in a similar fashion but actually bind to the 5ht receptors (unlike MAOIs). Because psychedelics and SSRIs compete for the same receptors, but SSRIs have a higher affinity for these receptors they generally block the effects of psychedelics.


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InvisibleFunkMasterShroom
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Re: SSRI's and Tryptamines [Re: Dawks]
    #17790264 - 02/12/13 03:53 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks Dawks, that simplifies and further explains what I was saying- but still doesnt explain that if one were to take the SSRI after (with what you've explained- not so much during I suppose..)- wouldnt that inhibit the reuptake of the serotonergic effects caused by the Tryptamine?- after they have unbound from the receptor sites- making room for the SSRI's to bind to them?(inotherwords- extend the trip, or at lest the come-down effects..?)
I see that taking it during wouldnt really do much, since as explained- it binds to the same receptors, and they would already be bound to by the tryptamines.. hm hm hm


--------------------
Why did the chicken cross the road?
To get to the other side.

"Adapt.
Adjust.
Accommodate."

"Professional help is being thought." - Bill Hicks

It would be hilarious... if it wasn't so sad...

Edited by FunkMasterShroom (02/12/13 03:54 PM)

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Offlinejjjcmzzt
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Re: SSRI's and Tryptamines [Re: FunkMasterShroom]
    #17790587 - 02/12/13 04:44 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Alright so just as a kind of similar question, couldnt serotonin itself be an MAOI? I mean in the sense that while under the effects of a tryptamine and Serotonin is stuck outside trying to get back into the neurons, couldnt the excess serotonin preoccupy MAO enzymes from destroying the tryptamine molecules because the enzymes are too busy destroying extra serotonin?

This is pure speculation, im not even sure that MAO enzymes destroy serotonin so could someone input on this?


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Psychedelics i want to take: Mushrooms, Salvia (weak), Salvia (strong), Cannabis, LSA, Cactus, LSD, DMT, Bufotenine, 5-meo-DMT, 4-aco-DMT, Bufocin (theoretical as of now),  and a long long time from now, Datura (deliriant).

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Offlines240779
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Re: SSRI's and Tryptamines [Re: jjjcmzzt]
    #17791638 - 02/12/13 07:15 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

jjjcmzzt said:
This is pure speculation, im not even sure that MAO enzymes destroy serotonin so could someone input on this?




In order to make serotonin, tryptophan has to go through a couple of enzymatic reactions. First, tryptophan hyrodxylase makes tryptophan into 5-HTP. Then another enzyme (using vitamin B6 and zinc) makes 5-HTP into serotonin. Serotonin is eventually degraded by MAO.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201105/sunlight-sugar-and-serotonin

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Offlineimjrod
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Re: SSRI's and Tryptamines [Re: FunkMasterShroom]
    #19355965 - 01/01/14 07:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The answer is yes.  Blocking the reuptake process will lengthen the mood effects and up to but no more than double the hallucinogenic effects from the uptake process of a Tryptamine.

Here's how: Serotonin (Tryptamine) goes through both the uptake process and reuptake process. The uptake process is, essentially, "binding to the receptors." Essentially, the uptake process destroys the Tryptamine but gives an hallucinogenic effect, while the re-uptake process destroys it with no effect. One can use an SSRI to block the re-uptake process, and prevent half of the Tryptamine from being destroyed without effect.

I recommend using a natural SSRI like Passion Flower or Kanna. One must use approximately a week's supply. Example: 7 grams of Passion Flower.

More Details: Actual Serotonin in the brain and made by the brain will be re-absorbed in the re-uptake process, while foreign Tryptamines not manufactured by the brain would be destroyed.

To illustrate, let us trace the path of Serotonin. First, Serotonin will not cross the blood-brain barrier. The precursor to Tryptamine, Tryptophan, is ingested, and Vitamin C is used to metabolize Tryptophan into Tryptamine.

Tryptamine is a messenger chemical, manufactured in response to environmental stimuli. To trace the path of Tryptamine in the brain, let's say we're talking about sight. Environmental stimuli from the optic nerve provokes the manufacture of Tryptamine in the visual cortex.

This Tryptamine is carrying "chemical data" about what was viewed. The sight is perceived when Tryptamine does the uptake process ("binds to the receptors"). The Tryptamine is then reabsorbed by the brain in the re-uptake process, to be used later.

But, if the Tryptamine was not manufactured by the brain in response to environmental stimuli, it will have hallucinogenic effects, and the re-uptake process will destroy the chemical versus re-absorb it.

There are actually two aspects to the effects of Serotonin and Tryptamines. Firstly, is the presence in the brain, secondly is the uptake process ("binding to the receptors"). Prescription SSRI's give anti-anxiety effects by blocking the re-uptake process, causing elevated levels of Serotonin. The increased levels of Serotonin has its own effect.

As would be the case of a Tryptamine not made by the brain, such as the shroom variety. It would give 2 effects: one caused by the presence in the brain and the other by the uptake process.

The mood-based effects come from the presence of the Tryptamine in the brain. If one wanted to only take enough Tryptamine to have the "laughy giggly effect," one should avoid using the SSRI to double the hallucinogenic effects. The "laughy-giggly" effect will not be doubled by an SSRI.

Most bad trips or negative experiences come from the intense emotional response. It takes on the form of fear or anger, and feeds the hallucinations. The experience will be more "clean" if one only takes half as much as necessary. In this case, the amount of Tryptamine in the brain will be half, causing less of an emotional response, and the amount of Tryptamine destroyed by re-uptake will be minimized.

Taking a "mega-dose" (week's supply) of SSRI will not have a great effect on DMT, aside from lengthening the time. Because the effects of DMT are based on its presence in the brain more so than the uptake process ("binding to the receptors"). The Methyl ring on DMT allows it to cross the blood-brain barrier. The only hallucinogenic effect comes from the fact that the Tryptamine was not made by the brain, so the chemical data it is carrying is of an environment which does not exist.

The molecules of "acid" and shrooms are much more dense in chemical data. Similar to comparing a floppy disk to a thumb drive. The Tryptamine in DMT is like a floppy with very little data, its effects mostly derived from the fact that it doesn't belong there and has a Methyl ring attached. While "acid" has a LOT of chemical data. It's like, if ya open a picture file in Notepad,  you'll see a lot of letters and numbers. The uptake process reads the letters and numbers and turns them into a picture. If the letters and numbers do not make a picture of something that really happened, it is hallucination. Different Tryptamine molecules will have more or less chemical data that the brain reads and turns into a picture.

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OfflineJPDancer
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Re: SSRI's and Tryptamines [Re: imjrod]
    #19356401 - 01/01/14 10:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So I know you don't want anecdotal evidence but here it is.

I have been on SSRI's for about 4 months. citalopram, generic celexa? 20 mg/day for the first 2, 40mg/day for the last two months.

I took a few shrrooms 2 nights ago before a concert. I didn't measure, I had a few bag's pre weighed to 3 grams dry. I probably ate more than 1g and less than 2, all at once, can't get more specific because I didn't have a scale to measure during ingestion. I DEFINITELY had effects. Energy coursing through my body, introspective thoughts, heightened empathy and openness, and light visuals. I actually kinda ignored the visuals and they were a distraction, like when I went to pee and the cinderblock wall was swaying and morphing I was like wtf I just wana go dance and meet people. Most intense visuals were closed eye visuals dancing to a stunning rendition of terrapin station! heaven. But yeah just from this guy, I took shrooms on ssri's and still got effects. Not the most intense trip of my life, but then again my dose wasn't exactly high.


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