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OfflineNakor420
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: BoulderMushrooms]
    #19313513 - 12/22/13 08:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah but if a body is buried with the myco-suit...this eliminates the need to exhume and compact because the corpse will be transformed into soil...Plus the idea of a fungi that will colonize a human body and pop mushrooms out of our heads is somewhat far fetched to me...though I suppose anything is possible. Again...a dome with the inner walls inoculation with melanin producing slime molds will not "absorb" the harmful radiation...the radiation will still be there...


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InvisibleThe Lightning
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: Nakor420]
    #19313542 - 12/22/13 08:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Another definition which may be helpful in understanding the need for bioremediation/mysorestoration:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioaccumulation

Marine life may eat radioactive foods (other marine plants, animals, water, etc), and they in turn become radioactive. As they eat more and more of the same foods - and live on - they build up in radiation, only to be eaten or decompose in a more potent state higher up on the food chain.


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OfflineBoulderMushrooms
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: Nakor420]
    #19313878 - 12/22/13 09:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Hmm.  My understanding was that these melanin containing fungi actually convert the radiation into usable energy.  ScientificAmerica article agrees - "[the melanin in this case acts like a step-down electric transformer, weakening the energy until it is useable by the fungi. "The energy becomes … low [at] a certain point where it can already be used by a fungus as chemical energy," Dadachova argues. "Protection doesn't play a role here. It is real energy conversion."]" http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=radiation-helps-fungi-grow

So, according to this article, the radiation will not be there - at least my understanding of the article...

Excellent point about the conversion of the body to soil.  That makes sense.  I still want to be under the apple tree:)  I spoke of a human cordyceps mainly in jest.  What I really mean is a strain of fungus that can get caught in our lungs, other orifices, or a skin wound, and do serious damage if not cause fatality because of it already being trained to digest human flesh.  Agree - still far out, but we are dealing with natural selection here, and we are essentially selecting for optimum human flesh digestion with these fungi. 

Excellent back and forth!  I dig the conversation, and appreciate the bouncing of ideas

~


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OfflineNakor420
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: BoulderMushrooms]
    #19313990 - 12/22/13 10:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yes it converts radiation into nutrients but it doesn't stop the radiation from  being created ... Like I said...you can't expect a tree to "get rid" of sunlight just because it uses photosynthesis... You will still be touched by the sunlight if you are walking in a forest....If you are standing next to the fungi, and there is a source of gamma radiation nearby...you AND the fungi will be taking on radiation....just because the fungi can use it for food doesn't mean you aren't going to die from it...


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: Nakor420]
    #19315025 - 12/23/13 07:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I've wondered about creating specialized domes around radioactive emitting sites - ie, Fukushima, and spray inoculating the inside with these fungi that absorb the radiation.




And then what?  It doesn't go away just because it's been absorbed into something else. :shrug:
RR


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OfflineNakor420
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #19315081 - 12/23/13 07:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

I've wondered about creating specialized domes around radioactive emitting sites - ie, Fukushima, and spray inoculating the inside with these fungi that absorb the radiation.




And then what?  It doesn't go away just because it's been absorbed into something else. :shrug:
RR




:whathesaid:


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Offlineshroombie
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: Nakor420]
    #19315595 - 12/23/13 10:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Okay but explain this shit

Quote:

  According to V. Vysotskii and A.Kornilova, the radioactive 137Cs (half-life 30 years) can be destroyed by bacteria. In an experiment described at (1) they introduced 260,900 Bk of 137Cs into a solution containing several chemical substances and bacteria. By natural decay the activity after 100 days would be reduced by 1670 Bk. But the actually measured reduction of radioactivity, after 100 days, turned out to be 51,100 Bk, plus or minus 1000. In other words, the reduction due to bacteria was 29 times larger than the reduction due to natural decay.
All activities were measured by placing small solution-containing flasks (2 by 2 by 2 cm) on top of the 1- cm-wide detector (2). Flasks were hermetically sealed, to make sure that cesium does not escape into the air, in the form of a volatile compound. Absence of accumulation of a solid cesium compound, gradually precipitating toward the bottom of the flask, was confirmed in a control experiment (during which 137Cs was decaying in the same chemical solution but without bacteria.) The decrease of radioactivity, during that experiment, was very close to the expected 1670 Bk.
http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/cf/402vysotskii.pdf ;




Thats why i'm saying whats necessary is a symbiotic response. If you find good mycocultures that can absorb and pull radiation into itself and combine them with a host of bacteria and the substrate necessary to sustain them long enough to get a foothold...


Edited by shroombie (12/23/13 10:32 AM)


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OfflineBoulderMushrooms
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: Nakor420]
    #19316111 - 12/23/13 01:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Hmm, we seem to be talking around the same point...

If the tree uses the sunlight as energy, that sunlight will not touch your face.  i.e., if you have a dome covered with dense ivy, and you were sitting under the dome, you would not get a suntan.  Do we agree on that? If so, the Ivy is effectively 'getting rid' of the sunlight, in that it converts it to sugars, and that same radiation will not touch your skin.  How is that not 'getting rid' of the sunlight?

RR, you mentioned that the radiation is still there - the article I cited seemed clear about the idea that the radiation is going through a step-down conversion process, whereby that radiation is converted into chemical energy.  Sure, as Naktor says, the radiation will not be stopped from its source, but this is ultimately about containment. 

The above example - if a dome made up of very thick ivy (which creates a total canopy) is created, nothing inside the dome will be able to photosynthesis.  Right? Because photosynthesis on the ivy-dome is converting the radiation of the sun into chemical energy. Planting a sapling inside the now shaded interior would be ineffective. 

So, the opposite, if a dome's interior is thickly covered with these fungi, the dome is placed over a radioactive site, the fungi step-down convert the emitted radiation into chemical energy, and the radiation is prevented from escaping further into the environment.  Sure, there are isotopes and the source of the radiation that still exist inside the dome at the source, but that is theoretically fine, because the fungi continue to eat up the radiation as it is emitted from the source. 

It is another form of containment. What we do now is simply pack radioactive material into concrete bunkers, because the concrete blocks the radiation UNTIL the radiation goes through its own degradation process and is not radioactive anymore (millions of years).  It seems to me that this article is stating very clearly that these fungi take the emitted particles/waves of radiation, and put them through this degradation process at a faster pace, for the purpose of energy production.  If that is true, the radioactive wave/particle that the fungi absorbed is not radioactive anymore. 



I am making a differentiation in my mind between (1.) G. glutinosis that absorbs radioactive isotopes into its mycelium, and DOES NOT break it down - it simply pushes it up through into the mushroom, and (2.), these melanin containing fungi that seem to literally eat the emitted wave/particle of radiation, converting it into a less radioactive or non-radioactive form.


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OfflineBoulderMushrooms
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: shroombie]
    #19316162 - 12/23/13 01:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting Shroombie, I had not heard of that.  So obviously, there is scientific evidence that the radiation is able to degrade more quickly via bacteria. 

I've read a few articles since this discussion, and the only one that has led me to think differently than above is this one (http://optimalprediction.com/wp/radiation-eating-fungi-they-kill-trees-and-they-kill-people/). This article says that radiation is acting as en enzyme, boosting the levels, size and strength of melanin in the fungi  So, its not actually the radiation that is the food, but the melanin is being induced to be more efficient. 

I still think something like this, a melanized fungal dome, can apply as way of containing radiation.  Especially if it is partnered with the above mentioned bacteria, and especially on the inside of the concrete bunker that is containing the radiation anyways.


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OfflineDesert-D
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: BoulderMushrooms]
    #19324772 - 12/25/13 08:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think its rediculouse to assume a saphoryte would begin killing people if we let the fungi break down bodys. Seriously think about it just because we started growing mushrooms on straw although they don't naturally grow there didn't mean mushrooms started killing whole fields of straw or because I used wood for a nonwoodlover that it began colonizing live trees and killing em off. Were talking about saphorytes-fungi that break down already dead material.


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OfflineBoulderMushrooms
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: Desert-D]
    #19325425 - 12/25/13 12:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Sure desert, but if you look with any depth into the world of saprophyte vs parasite, you often find that species blend into both categories.  i.e. the Reishi I found growing on a living maple tree that had no signs of decay or death.  There are hundreds of cases of traditional 'saprophytes' growing on what appears to be living material - just take a walk in the woods sometime.  The same with the opposite - parasites continuing to act saprophytically after the host dies, or, able to function entirely saprophytically when introduced to a dead 'host.'

If you know much about this, then we know that its very common for saprophytes to be 'opportunistic parasites,' where they grow on dead or dying tissue of a host.  When you understand this, it is obvious (to me at least) that a saprophyte trained to digest dead human flesh would regard it as a prime opportunity if they came into contact with near-dead or sick tissue of a living human.  It would not be that great of a epi-genetic leap.

I'm not talking about one of these human-digesting fungi attacking our whole population, including healthy people. I'm talking about already sick people being susceptible.  And there are a lot of sick people in our society. 

Your counter points don't seem to hold very well.  A field of growing wheat is a poor environment for oyster spawn to grow.  The individual stalks of the straw are too far spaced apart for the mycelium to jump from one to the other, and the outside typically remains dry due to being surrounded by open air.  Furthermore, one stalk of straw, if it hypothetically did become contaminated with oyster, would not have enough nutrition to support a fruit. So, you would never know just by looking at a field of wheat if oyster's had been attacking the straw. 

Have you ever assessed individual wheat stalks for oyster mycelium?  Have you ever grown wheat so close together that they were touching, like we do with cultivating oyster on straw, and poured oyster spores on them?  10 bucks says living wheat packed together like this would be susceptible to oyster digestion.  Why? Because growing wheat so close would nutrient deprive them, and the stalks touching would create moisture retention on the surface.  Perfect conditions for an infection.  Sure, its more likely that a mold or some other fungi would take the opportunity, but I refer back to my $10 bet:)


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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: BoulderMushrooms]
    #19330596 - 12/26/13 08:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

in the course of mv work with Battelle Pacific Northwest Laboratories in the late 1990s, in Scquini, Washington, 1 was given an opportunity to demonstrate mycorcmediation bcvond our previously successful bench-scale study. In lab experiments, we used one of my strains of oyster mushroom  (Pleurotus ostreatus)  to  test its skill in breaking down dieselsaturated soil. In a scries of mesocosm (midscale) tests, we obtained the best results by mixing sawdust spawn with soil and unsterilized alder chips. When combined with bunker C oil, the same petrochemical spilled bv the Exxon Valdez tanker in Alaska, 97 percent of the oil's polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) degraded after 8 weeks. However, if we first sterilized the alder chips before mixing them into the spawn, only 65 percent of the PAHs were degraded. For a control, we omitted the spawn and used unsterilized chips, which caused the PAHs to decline only 38 percent (Thomas et al. 1999)





From Mycelium Running by Stammets

Notice the difference (97-65=32%) between sterilized and unsterilized chips. Bacteria make the difference...


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InvisibleThe Lightning
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: shroombie]
    #19331821 - 12/27/13 05:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

This is a bit of a change in topic, but here's another reason we need to talk about bioremediation and mycoremediation:
http://topinfopost.com/2013/12/26/fukushima-radiation-hits-san-francisco

Geiger counters are sold on the net:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=geiger


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OfflineNakor420
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: The Lightning]
    #19332071 - 12/27/13 08:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Ok so I was doing some thinking on mycopesticides...My question is this... What is the possibility of isolating a sub-strain of Beauvaria Bassiana with a delayed sporulation in order to solve the "bed bug question" much as Stamets did with Metarhizium anisoplea? The problem I see is that bed bugs are not social insects which is a key vector of transmission for M. Anisoplea...I wonder if a pre-sporulating culture of B. Bassiana would produce attractants the same way M. Anisoplea does? And if so could an extract of such a sub-species be used to lure bed bugs into a "myco-trap"?


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Offlinetheonlysun81
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: Nakor420]
    #19332443 - 12/27/13 10:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I just did a paper on this for my soil ecology class. The science behind this is very limited and not very well developed. I'm no scientist so I'll just recommend a couple books I found helpful.

The first one for sure is a definite read for anyone interested in the subject.


Gadd, G. M. "Interactions of Fungi with Toxic Metals.
Singh, Harbhajan. Mycoremediation: Fungal Bioremediation


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OfflineSnowArcher
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: theonlysun81]
    #19351267 - 12/31/13 01:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It would be nice if people researched the radiation from Fukushima through reputable sources...  The radiation in the ocean right next to the plant is less radioactive than your own urine.  They have a mess for sure, but it is contained.  I find it sad that Japan has had such an emotional reaction to this issue that they are now compromising their economy by importing energy.

IAEA on Fukushima

As for using mushrooms for site remediation?  Seems like a long shot.


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OfflineNakor420
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: SnowArcher]
    #19351302 - 12/31/13 02:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SnowArcher said:
It would be nice if people researched the radiation from Fukushima through reputable sources...  The radiation in the ocean right next to the plant is less radioactive than your own urine.  They have a mess for sure, but it is contained.  I find it sad that Japan has had such an emotional reaction to this issue that they are now compromising their economy by importing energy.

IAEA on Fukushima

As for using mushrooms for site remediation?  Seems like a long shot.





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OfflineSnowArcher
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: Nakor420]
    #19351701 - 12/31/13 04:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Lol - are you frustrated because of the Fukushima piece, or the mushroom for site remediation piece?


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InvisibleThe Lightning
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: SnowArcher]
    #19352213 - 12/31/13 06:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

This is a learning opportunity for mushroom enthusiasts and student biologists to explore new solutions (to heal or restore our environment).

Let's encourage one another to seek solutions and explore.


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OfflineSnowArcher
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Re: Lets talk mycorestoration... [Re: The Lightning]
    #19352544 - 12/31/13 07:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I agree & think it is great!  If we can find ways to improve our water supplies or anything else using our shared passion then we all win in big ways.

Sorry if I was off-putting in any way.  I just get frustrated when information is given without basic research.


Edited by SnowArcher (12/31/13 08:08 PM)


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