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Offlineall this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19347089 - 12/30/13 04:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I would just like to interject with one point:

It's easy for us to pontificate about "suffering" while having access to computers and the internet, living in homes with heat and electricity and plenty of food.

I look at the third world and I have to wonder:  Is it really any business of ours to be discussing suffering?

Try living in Calcutta for a week and see how you feel about it.



Not sure what your point is.

Is my personal suffering any less real or valid because I don't live in abject poverty and I have enough to eat?

I don't buy the "all suffering is relative" thing.

Suffering is suffering, period.


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Offlinebloodbrother778
Super Chimpanzee

Registered: 10/26/07
Posts: 418
Last seen: 3 months, 18 days
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19347166 - 12/30/13 04:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:


Try living in Calcutta for a week and see how you feel about it.




you first


On the topic:

there is definitely a difference between necessary and unnecessary suffering

much of the suffering that I personally experience is self imposed and unnecessary, for example I may be experiencing something painful or be around someone who is acting in a way that some part of me does not approve of and there will be this voice inside going "Why me?" or "Oh this asshole"

seems that we like playing the victim role, even after committing to growth I find myself going "Oh just not this, not RIGHT NOW!!"

anyway this kind of suffering is definitely the enemy when one has made a choice…..
take a simple example: say you decide to lose weight and commit to a diet of some sort, then one day you get a strong urge break that diet due to your past habits - maybe you really want some ice cream or something - well you have to suffer through this to stick to your goal, in choosing one path another has to be sacrificed.  however, if you sit there thinking "Man it sucks so much that I can't have this cake right now!" - you've already lost, you're just bullshitting yourself into breaking your commitment.  Real commitment means you don't even look at that - you feel the urge and look away instead of focusing on it.  Focus on your goal instead, realizing that the suffering you are experiencing is necessary in order to get to it - it has a purpose.

There's a line from the book of runes that sums this up quite well:

"Be certain that you are not suffering over your suffering"


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19347167 - 12/30/13 04:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

the illusory or unnatural part would be, if you were referring to the state without attaching thought or opinion as your natural essential base state, reality as is.

Unnatural suffering being all the suffering created in your own mind. Natural being the state without creation, what is, without elaborating or embellishing.

both perfectly natural, in another sense... depending on point of view/context


though I haven't heard much in my books calling these things unnatural(maybe a line or two in Tibetan book of the dead, cant recall the context currently)... implied maybe... just because they refer to the base state as natural, doesn't mean everything else is deemed unnatural... depends on interpretation, personally I see nothing happening unnaturally, but I can see through context how one might suppose that implication.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/30/13 04:46 PM)


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Offlineall this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Sse]
    #19347266 - 12/30/13 04:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
the illusory or unnatural part would be, if you were referring to the state without attaching thought or opinion as your natural essential base state, reality as is.

Unnatural suffering being all the suffering created in your own mind. Natural being the state without creation, what is, without elaborating or embellishing.

both perfectly natural, in another sense... depending on point of view/context



A thoughtful, articulate post -- but I don't buy it.

There is no "unnatural" suffering.  Nothing comes to you that is "unnatural."  Be it of your own making, or not.  It's all "human."  All "natural."

The notion of "unnaturalness" is a piece of rotting carrion that reached its full stench potential in the Judeo-Christian religions. 

Buddhists should know better.


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19347276 - 12/30/13 04:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

read my recent update, im just saying in context it can be applied


common definition of natural: existing or caused by nature, not made or caused by humankind.



--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/30/13 04:53 PM)


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Offlineall this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Sse]
    #19347354 - 12/30/13 05:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
read my recent update, im just saying in context it can be applied


common definition of natural: existing or caused by nature, not made or caused by humankind.





Done.  :wink:


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19347389 - 12/30/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:whoo::bananadance::munchies:

:oogle:
:inlove:
:rose:
:etjesus:
:biggrin:

:goat:

:hehehe:


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19347504 - 12/30/13 05:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

the more intolerable the suffering the more likely a person to develop self-compassion in some form?


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlineusulpsychonaut
Male

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 2,814
Loc: Northland, New Zealand. Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Deviate]
    #19347892 - 12/30/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm sinking in the black bile of life as in there are women that I can't seduce, hard realities of history, the nervous socialism that sustains me, death all around, crazy do gooder preaching vegans, guilt, hate, loss and disappointment, the endless pain of increasing self awareness, pressures from every direction, no backup savings, crappy old cars, everything on the verge of falling apart, hatred, more hatred, the horrors endured by ancestors, visiting people who have large televisions going while I am there, family gatherings, loneliness, hangovers, comedowns, accidents, social failures, racial prejudice and oppression, utter powerlessness, being an idiot, surrounded by idiots, fucking shit up every day, getting sucked in, conned, ripped off, doing more than my fair share, buying gas, the confusion, and worst of all the frustration. Endless sexual frustration, for which there is no cure. I don't see an off switch. There is no option here.


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Offlineall this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #19348230 - 12/30/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

usulpsychonaut said:
I'm sinking in the black bile of life as in there are women that I can't seduce, hard realities of history, the nervous socialism that sustains me, death all around, crazy do gooder preaching vegans, guilt, hate, loss and disappointment, the endless pain of increasing self awareness, pressures from every direction, no backup savings, crappy old cars, everything on the verge of falling apart, hatred, more hatred, the horrors endured by ancestors, visiting people who have large televisions going while I am there, family gatherings, loneliness, hangovers, comedowns, accidents, social failures, racial prejudice and oppression, utter powerlessness, being an idiot, surrounded by idiots, fucking shit up every day, getting sucked in, conned, ripped off, doing more than my fair share, buying gas, the confusion, and worst of all the frustration. Endless sexual frustration, for which there is no cure. I don't see an off switch. There is no option here.



Idiots don't write as well and as from the heart as you do, so you're not an idiot.  Get over that.

There are lots of idiots, though.  Oh my god... tons of idiots.

Take refuge where you can.  This forum's a pretty good place for that.


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Offlinebloodbrother778
Super Chimpanzee

Registered: 10/26/07
Posts: 418
Last seen: 3 months, 18 days
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #19349862 - 12/31/13 04:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

usulpsychonaut said:
I'm sinking in the black bile of life as in there are women that I can't seduce, hard realities of history, the nervous socialism that sustains me, death all around, crazy do gooder preaching vegans, guilt, hate, loss and disappointment, the endless pain of increasing self awareness, pressures from every direction, no backup savings, crappy old cars, everything on the verge of falling apart, hatred, more hatred, the horrors endured by ancestors, visiting people who have large televisions going while I am there, family gatherings, loneliness, hangovers, comedowns, accidents, social failures, racial prejudice and oppression, utter powerlessness, being an idiot, surrounded by idiots, fucking shit up every day, getting sucked in, conned, ripped off, doing more than my fair share, buying gas, the confusion, and worst of all the frustration. Endless sexual frustration, for which there is no cure. I don't see an off switch. There is no option here.




perfect example of the "victim" attitude right there


big whoop what r u gonna do quit? that's not an option nigga

yeah it sucks….so what?  try to make it better one step at a time
instead of whining about it and looking for someone to reinforce that attitude

when you focus on that then you only see the negative, and then you subconsciously act in ways that reinforce your victim consciousness, you may even unknowingly sabotage your own endeavors just to prove to yourself that "you are the victim", and then you're perfectly content just complaining and remaining in mediocrity

well I won't stand for it. Grow a pair!


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OfflineIcyus
KavitārkikasiṃHa
Male


Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: bloodbrother778]
    #19349877 - 12/31/13 05:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It is optional.. you may seek it, and it will be euphoric... run from it and it wil grow..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Deviate]
    #19352280 - 12/31/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
In the past few days I have undergone a shift in consciousness and many new possibilities have opened up for me. One such possibility is that suffering is optional.

Have anyone else experienced this as a possibility and then actually gone after it actualized it? it seems to good to be to true, just too radical. I mean my whole life i have believed in suffering. I have believed that I needed to suffer.

From my current perspective ts appearing as if human being create their own suffering through something that could be vaguely described as an unconscious clinging/aversion response to sensory experience. It appears as thought he mind can gradually be trained to stop responding in this way and then suddenly, pain and pleasure become more like information rather than pleasure being the goal and pain being your arch nemeses.




This is how I see it, you're always going to be that locus of space and time that we happen to call Deviate.  You're always going to have your perspective, your vantage point, an ego.  I know you talk about getting rid of your ego a lot, but I think really what you're trying to do is get rid of the struggling in your mind (ego).  The thought, sensations, feelings that reject this moment, that say this shit here and now ain't good enough.  When that struggling dies, you feel more alive, earthier, at home in your body (you're going to have one as long as you're alive here on earth), comfortable in your own skin, in accordance w/ the Tao.

You've mentioned something about chronic pain, it won't just go away because of self-acceptance of how things are, but the pain won't make you so uptight or cripple your emotions.  I think when your ego isn't at odds with itself, your mind will actually be more free to think of working solutions (be that relaxation techniques, finding the right physical therapy, medicine etc. or whatever).


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Edited by CosmicJoke (12/31/13 07:27 PM)


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Offlinecbub
it
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Registered: 10/17/10
Posts: 1,412
Last seen: 6 years, 20 days
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19352605 - 12/31/13 08:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
  I know you talk about getting rid of your ego a lot, but I think really what you're trying to do is get rid of the struggling in your mind (ego).




He says it all ^^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zKqcRB8MqOQ#t=1486


--------------------
It's fine.


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Offlineusulpsychonaut
Male

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 2,814
Loc: Northland, New Zealand. Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: bloodbrother778]
    #19353531 - 01/01/14 02:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bloodbrother778 said:
Quote:

usulpsychonaut said:
I'm sinking in the black bile of life as in there are women that I can't seduce, hard realities of history, the nervous socialism that sustains me, death all around, crazy do gooder preaching vegans, guilt, hate, loss and disappointment, the endless pain of increasing self awareness, pressures from every direction, no backup savings, crappy old cars, everything on the verge of falling apart, hatred, more hatred, the horrors endured by ancestors, visiting people who have large televisions going while I am there, family gatherings, loneliness, hangovers, comedowns, accidents, social failures, racial prejudice and oppression, utter powerlessness, being an idiot, surrounded by idiots, fucking shit up every day, getting sucked in, conned, ripped off, doing more than my fair share, buying gas, the confusion, and worst of all the frustration. Endless sexual frustration, for which there is no cure. I don't see an off switch. There is no option here.




perfect example of the "victim" attitude right there


big whoop what r u gonna do quit? that's not an option nigga

yeah it sucks….so what?  try to make it better one step at a time
instead of whining about it and looking for someone to reinforce that attitude

when you focus on that then you only see the negative, and then you subconsciously act in ways that reinforce your victim consciousness, you may even unknowingly sabotage your own endeavors just to prove to yourself that "you are the victim", and then you're perfectly content just complaining and remaining in mediocrity

well I won't stand for it. Grow a pair!




Not a victim attitude at all. Simply a description of all the suffering that is not optional. I've not found a way of avoiding any of this suffering. So I'll wear it with pride. Allot of people seem to me to be happier than I am, so add in poor mental health. I've been choosing another way, every bloody day, every god damned moment all my life, only all these other ways were empty fantasies. Reality is suffering. The only real mystery is how come I suffer so little compared to the ancestors. Where does this socialism come from and how is it sustained? The masters of my material reality actually seem very kind compared to any others in history, so I'll keep my hate to myself and be creative, no suicidal homicidal plots. I've been trying to make it better one step at a time for many years, the process is so god damned slow that I'll be dead before it gets better. I could be a late bloomer, this is always a possibility, but my skills are so limited, it seems unlikely.


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
Rusted Identifier

Registered: 06/08/13
Posts: 970
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #19353563 - 01/01/14 02:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

usulpsychonaut said:
but my skills are so limited




Broaden your skills.

Practice Try Read Focus


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Offlineusulpsychonaut
Male

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 2,814
Loc: Northland, New Zealand. Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19353673 - 01/01/14 04:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Black bile. That is loss of enthusiasm, focus, passion, energy, connection. Skills don't develop cause the damned planets twist the path through deep and dark places. The curtains come down, buildings and people become be terrifying, the logical way forward is impossible. I remain unacquainted with the gold, but may the gold come out of these difficult processes, soon.


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OfflineCupCup
Stranger
Registered: 01/05/14
Posts: 6
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Deviate]
    #19371322 - 01/05/14 03:50 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yes it is possible to experience pain but not interpret it as suffering. Suffering is personal, pain is just an impulse.

Its not hard to do, anyone can do it with a good resolve.


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Offlineusulpsychonaut
Male

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 2,814
Loc: Northland, New Zealand. Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: CupCup]
    #19374648 - 01/05/14 08:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Bullshit. The whole point of suffering is to be overwhelmed by it. Good resolve is definitely a privilege anyway.


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Invisiblemt cleverest
clevendafodil

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 2,348
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #19442527 - 01/19/14 01:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

sorry for reviving an old thread but I've been thinking about this for awhile now.

I think suffering can only become optional with faith in the atonement. the atonement means that everything is 100% pure. "The glory of the lord is spread across the world and men do not see it."  check out my sig, every single thing that arises is pure. There is no such thing as bad, only good-- just believe that. Suffering can no longer be justified when everything is pure! Your perception of what is good/bad is the only disease. morality is antichrist! and sin is only believing in sin.

If you have faith that nothing is bad for you, you will never suffer. this is what the bible calls "being innocent concerning evil" and I'm pretty sure it is the key to reversing the effect of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. think about it---If you can really trick yourself into thinking that there is no such thing as bad, wrong, sin, or evil then it is literally impossible to suffer. you're in eden.


Edited by mt cleverest (01/19/14 01:18 PM)


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