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InvisibleJ. Jack Flash
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Registered: 11/20/13
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potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium
    #19297959 - 12/19/13 01:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i want to submit a private journal entry for public mockery.  to wit:


eureka!
bit of modest success today.
for important reasons which aren't important to this entry, whole brown rice is the stuff on which my entire mycoquest is based.  nothing is changing that.  it is simply how it is, at least in the near term.

unfortunately, this is an apparent obstacle to using the grain to grain transfer technique because of rice's somewhat obnoxious tendency to become a sticky, clumpy mess, if not outright bricks, when properly hydrated.

thus defined, the problem may have just been solved for my purposes.  this is exciting.
the hopeful solution, a thing for which i sought a new purpose: brown rice flour.

today's experiment, 1cup (7oz) of brown rice, cooked for 10 minutes at 15 psi with 1.5 cups of water in a 4 quart pressure cooker.  natural pressure release.  opened cooker, "strained"/fluffed to cool and steam off the rice.*
after cooled somewhat, dumped in a bowl, added 1oz brown rice flour PFTEK style and tossed/folded to coat the hydrated rice with the dry flour.  loaded in halves to two PP5 quart jars and PCd for 20 minutes.  natural cooling to just above room temp.  opened PC, closed the jars and shook with vigor.
pleased to see, the grains almost completely separated, suggesting usefulness as a master for G2G transfers.  very exciting.

before sterilizing, total weight of substrate was 14.1/8oz.  less the rice dry (7) and flour (1), this means the sub contains 6.1/8oz water total.  split between two jars (7 and 7.1/8) and pressure cooked, the weights remained precisely the same.  zero water was lost to the sterilization process.  only question here is, is this enough for full colonization?  i speculate it is.  further research is required.

*prepared to this point, the stuff can be loaded in graincaketek (vtek) jars and sterilized to await inoculation.  this cannot be used to noc for preparation for G2G because it will be impossible to shake the rice/mycelia apart and distribute to further jars


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InvisibleJ. Jack Flash
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Registered: 11/20/13
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Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19339744 - 12/29/13 12:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

moving right along.

these two jars were noc'd on 12/22 with some syringe or other.  cambo, though i know it doesn't matter.  cubes.

anyway.  they both show spots of fuzz here and there.  very little on a few random grains on top, six days later.  not too shabby, i suppose.






so, next phase of the experiment:  as they colonize together, and of course don't contaminate, touch wood, at about 30%-40% colonization, one will be shaken.  the other will not.  from there, progress will be observed.  i'm just gonna let them go in vitro.  i figure combined they contain as much brown rice as the standard PF cake recipe.  i'll then quantify the yield for comparison to each other and a set of MS PF cakes.

based on observations made on some grain plates i have going, i expect to see the shaken one recover and complete colonization much more quickly than the not shaken one.  as for yield potential, i make no guesses.  we'll see.  i'll be following the v-tek, or as i have taken to calling it, the soggy-bottom tek. 

i've been at this for so long with nothing to show for it... my third eye is itchy.

if observation meets hypothesis, this makes way for a technique based on grain to grain transfer of whole brown rice to multiple soggy bottom jars in rapid succession.

and if not, y'all feel free to point and laugh.

laters


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19340586 - 12/29/13 07:47 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

There are 2 main points on using whole brown rice without it being too starchy and sticky to break-up and use for G2G.

The first is using plenty of water.  Lots of starches & general grain matter WILL come from the rice. It's assured.
So if your prep doesn't have much leftover water, or worse No leftover water at all, some or all of that starchy stuff seeped from the grains will be re-deposited on the surface.

Use about, if not over, 3 times as much water volume as rice volume.


The second is conservative hydration.  Rice can expand A LOT, much more than we would want it to, and it's easy to let it go past the point of no return in that regard where it's too soft and the starch has been loosened up too much.

Once the water has come to a boil, reduce it to a lighter boil and monitor the rice's progress. Right at the point that it's clearly hydrated and about or just over double its original size, toss it in the strainer and begin fluffing it around!


If the rice is hydrated to the right point and is in plenty of water as to not have loads of loose starch on the surface when strained,  it should be almost as easy to break-up and shake as any other grain.




BTW, remember PF-tek half-pints are only 1/3 rice flour.  The flour is not expanded with a boil prep like whole grains are so the ratios aren't easily comparable, but I figure that a half-pint of hydrated whole rice has about 2-2.5x the grain as a half-pint PF cake.
This doesn't mean you can expect 2-2.5x the yield, especially not all in the first flush.  You'll need water, and if my recent figuring is correct you still may have so-so results without something like a casing layer to provide an ideal low- or no-nutrient fruiting spot.


PS:  Brown rice flour on brown rice? ? ?


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Edited by Violet (12/30/13 09:39 AM)


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InvisibleJ. Jack Flash
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Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: Violet]
    #19340739 - 12/29/13 09:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

thanks, violet.  i've made several attempts at prepping rice for fungal substrate, including your boil, soak, boil, and flash prep.  first one was way under-hydrated.  second was better hydrated, not too expanded, and even shook apart, i felt like there still wasn't enough water in it.  looks successful in the closet, tho.  third i thought was hydrated properly, but too sticky to shake apart after PCing.

in all cases, deffo used a ton of water.

i eat brown rice like it's going out of style.  and i PC every time with a particular recipe, turns out precisely the same each time without residual water.  decided there must be a way to prep the rice to precisely the right hydration for fungus by altering the recipe a bit.  and here we are. 

it was obvious that the rice was too sticky to break apart after sterilization.  assuming i got the hydration right, i surmised there were two ways to approach this.  either rinse the cooked rice to remove the surface starch, or apply the flour to coat. and again, here we are.

since PF tek lost all allure for me, i needed something to do with the flour i already had.  made sense to me at the time.  it was pleasantly surprising that the rice prepared this way behaved as it did. 

so yeah, my second set above did break apart, but i was concerned it hadn't absorbed enough water.  a conslusion supported by the fact that it hadn't expanded to anywhere near the 2.5 times you indicated in your prep tech.  even the third, unshakable set hadn't expanded that much.  i wonder if you would, could you weigh a known quantity of rice before and after what you consider proper hydration to quantify how much water has been absorbed?  i failed to do this on the above sets, but it's known for this experiment.

also just for clarity, i figured i used a cup of dry rice and an ounce of flour, which i equated to the cup of flour used in the recipe for five PF cakes.  did not figure that each PF cake contained the same as a cake of the above.  i do plan to case them following the sifted potting soil technique you illustrated.

i dig the precision and quickness of this experiment's prep.  known quantities, short times, no down time between steps.  going from dry grain to pressure sterilizing in half an hour.  but there's no grain water to show for it.  cuts both ways.  so i guess the next move is to compare the two methods directly to see how the different hydration proportions affect relative performance. 


finally, i know you're right.  that second set i mentioned above, i have three plates of it going right now, transferred from agar.  when i was fotographing them, one of the pucks fell out of the bottom of the jar and a small chunk ended up beneath it so it couldn't settle back in place.  soooooo, i shook it apart.  one marble sized chunk, the core of the mycelium. wouldn't break, but the rest broke apart just fine.  that one jar lept ahead of the rest and is fully colonized, while the others are at best getting close.  still i can't help but feel like the rice was under-hydrated.  i remember it felt pretty stiff inside when a grain was broken with a fingernail.  i guessed the mushrooms would benefit from more water for colonization and first flush.
regardless, this was well after this experiment began.  meanwhile, i have three other plates which all were moving faster than the above three, hydrated to the point of being sticky and unshakeable.  suggests the added moisture reduces colonization time, but for the inability to shake.  so combining the faster colonization with shakability would reduce it further.  that's the hypothesis, anyway.  come to think of it, i posted those fotos to your culturing thread.

yeah i know i'm just spinning wheels but whatever.  it's therapy for winter blues, which is killing me along side the insomnia.  sorry for the wall of text.

ugh, mind and body are thoroughly separated this morning.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19345598 - 12/30/13 09:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

If your rice was under-hydrated, you didn't boil enough.
I get 2.4-2.6x expansion from brown rice every time I do it right.


Observe bolded statements:
Quote:

J. Jack Flash said:
in all cases, deffo used a ton of water.

i eat brown rice like it's going out of style.  and i PC every time with a particular recipe, turns out precisely the same each time without residual water. 

it was obvious that the rice was too sticky to break apart after sterilization.  assuming i got the hydration right, i surmised there were two ways to approach this.  either rinse the cooked rice to remove the surface starch, or apply the flour to coat.

i dig the precision and quickness of this experiment's prep.  known quantities, short times, no down time between steps.  going from dry grain to pressure sterilizing in half an hour.  but there's no grain water to show for it.



You said you used plenty of water...
Yet plenty of water would be having plenty left over after the prep.

Like I said, if the grains absorb All or Most of the water, then All or Much of the starches & stuff released from the grains is deposited back on their surfaces, making them incredibly sticky and problematic.

You need to always have leftover water to take those extra starches away, and that's also great agar.


Quote:

J. Jack Flash said:
i wonder if you would, could you weigh a known quantity of rice before and after what you consider proper hydration to quantify how much water has been absorbed?



Interestingly enough, I had already been up to this.

However it's not as relevant as you may think.
Go ahead and give up on the idea of using a precise amount of water for rice prep.  It lets off too much stuff that needs to stay off of it.
That's fine for eating (although personally I'd think it's too sticky and mushy), but horrid for myco use.


Use about or more than 3 times as much water volume as rice volume.

Don't pressure cook it... simmer it up to proper size and moisture!


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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Edited by Violet (12/30/13 09:41 AM)


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InvisibleJ. Jack Flash
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Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: Violet]
    #19347883 - 12/30/13 06:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

hmmm. i remain unconvinced.  i don't yet believe the starches must be washed away for the sake of the health of the mycelium. 

you mentioned 2.4 to 2.6 times expanded volume when properly hydrated, yet in your newly minted grains dicussion (excellent stuff by the way) you noted 2.1 times expansion.  this was what the third simmer attempt yielded, and it was too sticky to break apart for spawn once it was sterilized.  you also noted that this is fine for soggy bottom growing because they don't get broken up anyway.  your argument for using grass seed for spawn is totally convincing, but i'm maintaining my stance, for numerous unrelated reasons, that brown rice is my chosen substrate.  not rye berries, bird seed, grass seed or whatever.  if this little bit of fuckin' around works out like i believe it will, my requirements will be met with gusto.  and where i'm at, a 25# sack of rice goes for $13.

i do miss the idea of grain water for agar, but i have more friends who brew beer than i have fingers and toes.  malt extract is free for the asking.

i want to give simmering another go, but i just don't see it being worth it, even if i can make it work as well as you illustrate.  more energy on the stove, more time and tending, and still too sticky to spawn.

as for texture in the bowl, i tell you i nailed that one.  the pressure cooker is one of humankind's finest achievements.  perfect brown rice in fifteen minutes.  fluffy not mushy.  but still, too sticky to spawn once it's been back through the pressure cooker for sterilization.  however,  toss it with chickpeas, also from the PC, and a handful of whatever else you feel like tasting that minute... i live on the stuff and it's freekin delicious.  my recent fave is celery, carrot, sesame oil, garlic, ginger, sri racha, rice vinegar plus five spice and heavy cayenne.  whew, what a tangent.

meanwhile, the jars are coming along.  they're currently on a 12/12 cycle, in my grow closet, with indirect light and heat applied.  it's about 75F day/65F night.  think i should leave the heat on all the time?  i can't decide.

stay beautiful, violet, and thank you.  you accepting applications for apprenticeships?  ; ]


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19348048 - 12/30/13 07:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You trippin, man?

Firstly, I never said "starches must be washed off for the sake of health of the mycelium", what hat is that pulled from?
I said that the starches released into the water must be removed With the water or else it will make the grains incredibly sticky, causing the very problem the nature of your thread is supposed to deal with.

Secondly, the 2.1 expansion in that grain comparison post is referring to GRASS SEED.
Look RIGHT UNDER IT to see where I mention the BROWN RICE having expanded by 2.5

Thirdly, I read that your grains didn't expand enough but that they're nonetheless too sticky. That's why I quoted the above statements and clarified.
You're trying to experiment with wily ideas to improve the shakability of rice only due to your insistence on preparing it in obviously inferior ways.
"Go ahead and give up on the idea of using a precise amount of water for rice prep.  It lets off too much stuff that needs to stay off of it."
I'll repeat, since it seems you haven't picked up what I've been putting down:
If you simmer right, and use more than enough water, the grains will not be so sticky and will not have excess starch deposited on their surface.
If you want your rice to be shakeable, simmer it gradually up to proper hydration in at least 3 times as much water so that there's plenty of water left over. Something zany like rice flour on rice can only be thought to help something that is problematic, and it's not inherently problematic, it's due to your preparation.


Fourthly, I had and have no intent of getting you to switch to another grain and said nothing of the sort. BR is one of my 2 favorites. I'm only advising you on its use.


Lastly, if you don't want grainwater agar, then fine - waste the stuff down the drain (despite that you can grow mushrooms with it). That's no reason to not use enough water to prepare the grains right.
Although I'll note that grainwater agar is not just to avoid purchasing malt, that's literally the least important reason.



Anyone who would like to learn may be an "apprentice"! :smile:


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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InvisibleJ. Jack Flash
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Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: Violet]
    #19348454 - 12/30/13 08:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

oh violet, don't be so defensive. you're right i'm sorry i misread it, the part about expansion ratios.  no need to shout.
still, that 2.1 expansion which i definitely did get, which very much left me with a ton of water i caught and used for agar plates, still left the rice too sticky to shake.  if i knew how to get 2.5 times expansion and not have a sticky gluey mess which would never break apart, i wouldn't have needed to think of something else.  what can i say, you're method for prepping rice did not work for me.  i guess the new age might consider me an incompetent shithead.  (i know you didn't say that) i got no problem with that.  i am awesome. 

:ruggedwink:

i won't listen to you tell me "obviously inferior ways."  that's a meaningless and inflammatory statement.  the experiment above is not obviously inferior.  it is simply unproven.  if it fails, you'll know soon enough.  if it works, i know you'll still call it inferior, and that's just fine.

i never said that you said, "starches must be washed off for the sake of health of the mycelium"  i get how it came across that way, but it wasn't intended.  sorry 'bout that.  i pulled it outta my inarticulate hat.  also never said you said to use another grain.

ummm, oh yeah, the only time i didn't have water left over was when i used the pressure cooker approach for this experiment.  all other attempts had plenty left over, some of which is still in my freezer.  no grain water was ever disposed of.  for this approach all that luscious nutrient is left on the rice.  nothing is wasted.  you think adding pulverized brown rice to cooked rice to facilitate grain separation is stupid? ok. it's just as stupid as i am for not being able to reproduce your perfect brown rice preparation.  so far, though, it seems to be working just as well for a fraction of the time and effort your approach takes.  if the results are as good, what's left to make it inferior?  to level with you, (TMI) i'm trying to approach this from an unbiased view, all scientific like, because i'm having some real psychological problems lately.  the emphasis on non judgement and openminded wonderment is really helping me out.  again, if my earlier attempts at simmering were successful, this experiment would never have reached the drawing board.  meanwhile, i see real benefit to the OMC if a grain prep can be figured which goes from dry grain to jars in the sterilizer in half an hour.

wily and zany ideas.  i read an article about PF and his path to the PF TEK.  brown rice flour on vermiculite...  genius or madness?  why is it such a stretch to apply brown rice flour to cooked brown rice with none of its starch and nutrients washed away and poured into agar plates?  what makes it so obviously inferior?  the fact that it hasn't been done before? 

and lastly, answer the one for real question i asked, if you would.  would you leave the heat in the grow closet at 75F or cycle it with the lights?

cheers, m'lady.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19349202 - 12/30/13 11:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Geez, that's an overreaction if I've seen one.
Ease up, new guy.

It's this simple. I prepare shakeable brown rice all the time.  You see it being grown on in almost every one of the photos I've posted for months on end. It's easy to do, and it works great the same for me every time.

No kidding, I just inoc'd and shook up a dozen sterilized containers of rice that I prepared yesterday and today.
Proper preparation works properly.
Improper grains means improper preparation.

I'm no ricemaster. You can do it too. You just haven't yet and you've literally told me why.  So chill, and learn a little.

The rice you cook to eat off your plate doesn't have to be loose and shakeable after another pressure cooker run.
Pressure cooking is extra-high heat, intensely fast.  Sure a speedy prep-to-sterilize time is possible with any grain (without a pressure prep too of course) but might I suggest that pressure cooking is not the best way to prepare rice for another pressure cooking if you want it to keep in good shape :shrug:


I didn't say your 'experiment' was inferior, I was saying it's an attempt to 'innovate' due to a grain prep that was inferior. You keep saying it yourself, your grain prep hasn't worked out...


Some stable temp fluctuations are fine, even good, but mine stay at stable temps all the time and that's quite fine by me too


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts


Edited by Violet (12/30/13 11:37 PM)


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InvisibleJ. Jack Flash
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Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: Violet]
    #19369688 - 01/04/14 06:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

shakin' my money maker, as it were.


it worked.  the shake wasn't effortless, but impact wasn't necessary to get the mycelium to shatter.  this jar was not as far along as the second one.  the uncolonized rice is loose and plump, totally not sticky.  turns out the core was quite solidly colonized.  when it shattered, it felt strangely satisfying.
:stabbarney:

i predict this one will complete colonizing before...



... this one does.  this one has significant colonization along the bottom, unlike the shaken one.  now it's a race.  taking all bets.

so far, touch wood, no sign of contamination.


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OfflineJohn in WI
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Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19370215 - 01/04/14 08:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Wow-I'd like to thank all involved in this thread.  I tried brown rice for my first grow.  I just cooked it like it said on the package, put it in a PF jar, and pressure cooked it.  I only made 2 inoculation holes in the jars.

None of the jars contaminated, but I have to say the resulting brown rice sure is blown up and stuck together, and the jars took forever to colonize.  The poor mycellium just trying to slug it out through heavy, wet starch.

I was coming up with ideas for what to do next time--I actually planned to coat the cooked rice with fine vermiculite to keep them from sticking.

Who would have thought proper cooking would provide a much more elegant solution?  You see, I was 2 weeks into this project before I put "p. cubensis cultivation" into the google machine and found this goldmine of info at the Shroomery.


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InvisibleJ. Jack Flash
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Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: John in WI]
    #19371755 - 01/05/14 08:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

cool, man.  i'd like to point out, my work in this thread is probably scoffed at by the entire mush cult.  it's far from a proven method.  this is only proof of concept.  that said, it looks promising to me. 

also, i haven't had a successful grow yet in part because i've been too busy fucking about with process refinement.  so there's that.

it's impressive to me that you got started before finding this site.  there are apparently no unanswered questions here, though some of those answers are outdated.  gotta find your own way, learn all you can, and be prepared for failure.  the most expensive consumable is time.  all the rest are cheap.

good luck.


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InvisibleKing of Pain
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Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: John in WI]
    #19372080 - 01/05/14 10:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

John in WI said:
Wow-I'd like to thank all involved in this thread.  I tried brown rice for my first grow.  I just cooked it like it said on the package, put it in a PF jar, and pressure cooked it.  I only made 2 inoculation holes in the jars.
None of the jars contaminated, but I have to say the resulting brown rice sure is blown up and stuck together, and the jars took forever to colonize.  The poor mycellium just trying to slug it out through heavy, wet starch.






All i use is whole brown rice. You need to put it in a strainer after its prepared and rinse the hell out of it for a good 3 minutes or more to get all the starch off.Then i let it drain for an hour in the sink before i load my jars. Don't pack the jars too tight. I under cook the rice just barely to avoid super expansion or (blown up) as you call it.


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Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: King of Pain]
    #19373524 - 01/05/14 03:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

justncyn said:
All i use is whole brown rice. You need to put it in a strainer after its prepared and rinse the hell out of it for a good 3 minutes or more to get all the starch off.Then i let it drain for an hour in the sink before i load my jars. Don't pack the jars too tight. I under cook the rice just barely to avoid super expansion or (blown up) as you call it.




^^^^^^ That's good adrice!


Personally I don't much like rinsing off the grains, but I've done it before and it definitely works (just 20-50 seconds of rinsing was plenty).  Dunno what it is about it that I don't dig.  Maybe I'll get over it sometime, but I know that I love the grains I prepare without a wash as long as I prepare them the easy but accurate way I do now.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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InvisibleJ. Jack Flash
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Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: Violet]
    #19396295 - 01/09/14 10:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well fuck.

The shaken jar finished yesterday or so.  It's a pretty solid cake.  I have nothing to transfer it to just now, so whatever.  I'm gonna let it go into my first MS soggy bottom invitro.




It did beat the unshaken one, but it's a flawed comparison, as the unshaken one stalled.  So a couple days ago i shook it and cracked the lid to let it finish.  It's nearly there.  If i can put something together tomorrow night, i'll try a G2G with this one for giggles. 



Or maybe, in the spirit of the soggy bottom vs. bulk debate, i'll spawn it strait to an ultra miniature bulk.  As both of these would be my firsts at either approach, there's no relative strength of skill in one approach or the other.  Guess i got 24 hours to get some coir and work out pasteurization.


--------------------
 
the j stands for jesus.
2020 new years grow along


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OfflineBigGreenMat
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Registered: 11/04/13
Posts: 161
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19396562 - 01/09/14 11:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Another very limited personal experience.  I just did a prep of brown rice with gypsum added and it definitely helped keep the rice nice and loose.  Just a thought


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InvisibleJ. Jack Flash
stranger than ever.


Registered: 11/20/13
Posts: 1,500
Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: BigGreenMat]
    #19396673 - 01/09/14 11:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

far out, thanks, man.  i wonder how you approached it?  that is, you rinse the rice or strain a lot of water and starch off, and then add gypsum?  or add it to the pot when you cooked it?  or what?  i feel like the amount usually recommended for a given amount of grain is very small, like just a pinch per cup or something.  how much did you use? 

so then if gypsum was added to rice, it could be left out of any bulk sub you might use, huh?  ugh.  my personality is way too analytical for this stuff...
                                                                          :hmm:


there can be great peace in just saying, 'fuck it.'


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the j stands for jesus.
2020 new years grow along


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OfflinePocketRevolution
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Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 270
Last seen: 1 month, 17 days
Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19396876 - 01/10/14 12:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Throw the rice into a big pot of boiling water - yes, like cooking pasta, 3 or more volumes of water.  Stir it.  Wait until it has just started to plump up and glisten.  Strain it.  Put it in jars.  Pressure cook.

Presto!  Rice for G2G!

The trick is really nailing down the point at which to strain.  You kind of have to do it a few times to get it right.

It's up to you whether to use the water for something or not.  I tried making rye soak-water agar and the results were...wierd.  The mycelium grew really thick and fuzzy.  (The soak water had coffee and gypsum in it too.)


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InvisibleJ. Jack Flash
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Registered: 11/20/13
Posts: 1,500
Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: PocketRevolution]
    #19397792 - 01/10/14 08:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

this is what failed me.  or i failed it, whatever.

here's it: assuming that the degree rice is expanded gauges its degree of hydration, and that getting that right is critical to getting a good result, i can't see how that tek could work.  specifically, if the rice came near the 2.4x volume of its dry state as is recommended, no amount of draining and rinsing could keep it from sticking into solid blocks after sterilizing.  i'm gonna say i gotta see that with my own eyes to believe it.

so you say boil then drain as soon as it starts to plump up and glisten.  what change in volume are you getting?  as a measure of hydration, is why i ask.  so let's say 1.5x expanded, that's a lot less hydrated, yeah?  does that not matter?  i've come to believe that getting hydration right is a pretty high priority.  of course, i really have no idea what i'm talking about, except for what i've already done.  getting to that hydration, and straining as directed, just didn't work for me.

Quote:


The trick is really nailing down the point at which to strain.  You kind of have to do it a few times to get it right.




so yeah this is where i failed, and i tried several times.  i didn't try it once and then said fuck it.  i'm starting to feel pretty stupid but whatever.  :wetself:


--------------------
 
the j stands for jesus.
2020 new years grow along


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OfflinePocketRevolution
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Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 270
Last seen: 1 month, 17 days
Re: potential solution for using whole brown rice for g2g transfer medium [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19401082 - 01/10/14 08:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Proper level of hydration is very important, yes.  You want it moist enough to support growth, and dry enough to shake.  There's a reasonable range in there where both of these requirements are met.  As long as your moisture content is high enough for the mycelium to grow robustly, there is enough moisture.  Adding more won't necessarily improve anything.  The process I described above produces a product which is a bit drier, in order to optimize the shaking.  You can add water after full colonization, either by dunking or spawning to bulk, or both.  You can also boil longer if you want more water content, but if you push it too far the grains will burst and go sticky.

If you really wanted to nail it down you could sit there and boil some rice until it burst, then note how long it took.

I never measured the amount of water taken on, or the increase in volume.  I just looked for what seemed to me like "hydrated, but not saturated"


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