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OfflineDeviate
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Is it possible that suffering is optional?
    #19344648 - 12/30/13 02:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

In the past few days I have undergone a shift in consciousness and many new possibilities have opened up for me. One such possibility is that suffering is optional.

Have anyone else experienced this as a possibility and then actually gone after it actualized it? it seems to good to be to true, just too radical. I mean my whole life i have believed in suffering. I have believed that I needed to suffer.

From my current perspective ts appearing as if human being create their own suffering through something that could be vaguely described as an unconscious clinging/aversion response to sensory experience. It appears as thought he mind can gradually be trained to stop responding in this way and then suddenly, pain and pleasure become more like information rather than pleasure being the goal and pain being your arch nemeses.


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Deviate]
    #19344661 - 12/30/13 02:08 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I've read some books that state this..

I don't know that I've actualized this notion though.:shrug:


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Deviate]
    #19344711 - 12/30/13 02:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
In the past few days I have undergone a shift in consciousness and many new possibilities have opened up for me. One such possibility is that suffering is optional.

Have anyone else experienced this as a possibility and then actually gone after it actualized it? it seems to good to be to true, just too radical. I mean my whole life i have believed in suffering. I have believed that I needed to suffer.

From my current perspective ts appearing as if human being create their own suffering through something that could be vaguely described as an unconscious clinging/aversion response to sensory experience. It appears as thought he mind can gradually be trained to stop responding in this way and then suddenly, pain and pleasure become more like information rather than pleasure being the goal and pain being your arch nemeses.




Dude, you asked a question!... which means you don't really know deep down inside... :omg:  Whatever the Truth is, this is good imho, a step in the right direction. Keep asking! Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe.  Or maybe 'sometimes, sometimes, sometimes, sometimes, sometimes'. New mantra :omg:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Deviate]
    #19344881 - 12/30/13 03:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
In the past few days I have undergone a shift in consciousness and many new possibilities have opened up for me. One such possibility is that suffering is optional.

Have anyone else experienced this as a possibility and then actually gone after it actualized it? it seems to good to be to true, just too radical. I mean my whole life i have believed in suffering. I have believed that I needed to suffer.

From my current perspective ts appearing as if human being create their own suffering through something that could be vaguely described as an unconscious clinging/aversion response to sensory experience. It appears as thought he mind can gradually be trained to stop responding in this way and then suddenly, pain and pleasure become more like information rather than pleasure being the goal and pain being your arch nemeses.




:thumbup:

I wouldn't say it's really 'optional' as who would be choosing to suffer or not? but i get what your saying...

The sensation of pain is an inevitable part of a human body, but what i do find is if there is no attachment to it then there is less or no suffering of the pain, pain is felt, and at times even more intensely than before as there's less resistance to feeling pain, you can even enjoy feeling pain & see it as beautiful, but sometimes it's like you have to 'suffer' it in order to burn off something, to break something open, to push your limits

Ultimately we are beyond the duality of pleasure/pain, but i don't feel the human bodymind can cease favouring pleasure over pain, it's natural & inbuilt within the organism to want bliss over suffering, but i do find it is possible to cease equating true happiness with temporary pleasures and realize ones very own self is Bliss, which in a way can stop some mental favouring of pleasure over pain, but the body will continue to do so as it's natural for it to do so, for example you may realize the Self is ever present perfect bliss, but if someone's stabbing your body with a knife your body will move away from them out of a natural response to remove pain

Ramana approached this in a few ways

D.: There are pleasure and pain in ordinary life. Should we not remain
with only pleasure?

M.: Pleasure consists in turning and keeping the mind within; pain in
sending it outward. There is only pleasure. Absence of pleasure is
called pain. One’s nature is pleasure - Bliss.


Each one seeks happiness but is misled into thinking pain associated
pleasures as happiness. Such happiness is transient. His mistaken
activity gives him short-lived pleasure. Pain and pleasure alternate
with one another in the world. To discriminate between the pain-producing
and pleasure-producing matters and to confine oneself to
the happiness-producing pursuit only is vairagya. What is it that will
not be followed by pain? He seeks it and engages in it.


He acknowledged our inbuilt goal to seek pleasure & advised accordingly, yet also said that true peace is beyond the duality of pleasure/pain

Men want absolute and permanent happiness. This does not
reside in objects, but in the Absolute. It is Peace free from pain
and pleasure - it is a neutral state.


--------------------


Edited by Chronic7 (12/30/13 04:00 AM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19344930 - 12/30/13 04:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yes pain is actually felt more intensely, that is why we have all these defenses set up they actually do help numb us to pain, that is why we close our hearts when we experience trauma. But these are unskillfull ways of coping with pain because its like it wasnt digested properly so it comes back up.

I find that pain without attachments only hurts for a short while and then it causes growth, so in a certain sense suffering is unavoidable because we must suffer to attain enlightenment and we obviously cant avoid pain while on earth, even after enlightenment, but it seems to me that the fear of pain, negative anticipation and the resulting trauma are 1000x more problematic than the pain itself which is actully often beneficial if understood properly.

Getting over the aversion to pain is a difficult undertaking. In fact part of the reason my spiritual growht was stalled for so long is because I understood that growing spiritually was going to entail facing my pain instead of running away from it and i did not want to do that.


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Deviate]
    #19344955 - 12/30/13 04:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, it's strange the way things can change when it comes to avoiding/accepting pain on the path, when i really started consciously seeking i had a few big blissfull experiences but for a large portion of the time i was suffering & seeing suffering everywhere in everything, of course i tried to escape this suffering viewpoint and at the time it was good for me to seek how to escape it, to want to wake up, if someone had told me to just accept it it would not have been possible, but having understood that freedom is what is, now when i see life is suffering nothing seeks to escape that viewpoint anymore, it's beautiful


--------------------


Edited by Chronic7 (12/30/13 07:19 AM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19345196 - 12/30/13 06:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

yeah i know what you mean it used to be that when i understood i needed to accept things i would try to wait until a moment when i was feeling good. that is the only time i would have the courage to dive into the present moment.

now i understand that the present moment contains all that i long for, always. it doesnt change just because i am suffering. God doesn't go away when I am suffering, how can he? He is all that there is.

So I now have this firm understanding that THIS IS IT. THIS. Whats here right now is what I am longing for. This is the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, the God Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He Who Is.

The Book of Revelation describes God as He who is and was and will be.

Once you understand that you are not separate from God, when you put that together with the fact that God is what is, then you begin to realize what you have. You are the divine. You have the divine right in front of you. All thats keeping you from it, is your own act of looking for it in the future or dwelling on the past.

As a result of realizing this, I have become very interested in the present moment. Its incredibly amaziing to really and i mean really really explore the present moment.

Btw, it aint always enough to just let go. I was actuallly stuck on this for a while. I was letting go and letting go and i would go go go down into the depths of me own being and into deep peace and relaxation and then all of a sudden a harpoon would hit me from the mother ship up on the surface and hoist be back. then tonight i was listenin' to an adyashanti lecture nad he explains that sometimes you need to consciously deal with things before you let go, other wise they will bring you back. so anyway that was a big insight for me because i realized i have wasted a lot of time trying to let go when really there is still tons of emotional stuff i need to deal with and work through before i can even begin to truly let go all the way.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Deviate]
    #19345251 - 12/30/13 06:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Make no mistake.



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Deviate]
    #19345564 - 12/30/13 09:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
In the past few days I have undergone a shift in consciousness and many new possibilities have opened up for me. One such possibility is that suffering is optional.

Have anyone else experienced this as a possibility and then actually gone after it actualized it? it seems to good to be to true, just too radical. I mean my whole life i have believed in suffering. I have believed that I needed to suffer.

From my current perspective ts appearing as if human being create their own suffering through something that could be vaguely described as an unconscious clinging/aversion response to sensory experience. It appears as thought he mind can gradually be trained to stop responding in this way and then suddenly, pain and pleasure become more like information rather than pleasure being the goal and pain being your arch nemeses.




I believe that it is optional in a sense. Feeling pain is not optional but our reaction to that pain is.  But this is where it gets tricky. If you are not emotionally mature you may not be able to make the choice not to suffer due to your programming and emotional weakness. A stronger and more awake person could however. So is it really optional for all of us?  Depends I guess on how you look at it but it certainly is a possibility for all of us.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Icelander]
    #19345770 - 12/30/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I believe that it is optional in a sense. Feeling pain is not optional but our reaction to that pain is.  But this is where it gets tricky. If you are not emotionally mature you may not be able to make the choice not to suffer due to your programming and emotional weakness. A stronger and more awake person could however. So is it really optional for all of us?  Depends I guess on how you look at it but it certainly is a possibility for all of us.




Emotional balance can make a huge difference in how you interpret physical pain IME, one's posturing can really add a wholly different and unnecessary dimension of fucked upness to it.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Deviate]
    #19345955 - 12/30/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It is my impression that "suffering" is a phenomenon that exists in civilized societies, and is not necessarily applicable to the human existential condition per se.

We civilized folks are always longing and looking for a union we can never find, an illusory, safe peace from which we are thrust when we are born, leaving the womb, and when we are young children, when we are no longer the object of mom's constant attention.

In other words, I do not agree with the Buddha that existence in general is suffering.

I posit that our existence is suffering.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19345992 - 12/30/13 11:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Those that mute their suffering make horrible consumers, as they accept whatever menu of option is presented. They manifest little political will. Muting ones suffering sounds like an excellent excuse to deny necessary changes within oneself, and responsibility for ones future. Those that mute their suffering make excellent slaves, or at least willfully subject themselves to the will of more dominant individuals or groups. Excellent criteria for denial......


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OfflineSse
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19346388 - 12/30/13 01:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

resistance is futile

examine

who, what, when, where, why

appropriate

accept

amend


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/30/13 01:57 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19346578 - 12/30/13 02:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I was thinking along the lines of hunter-gatherers, for example.  I don't think, if you could ask a hunter-gatherer whether he thought he was in a state of suffering, that he would answer in the affirmative.  They don't think that way.

Same thing for a plains Indian of North America.  I don't think they thought of themselves as suffering, individually or collectively (at least until the white man got here). They didn't feel tormented, they didn't feel a need to constantly chase after a phantasm -- the American Dream, enlightenment, paradise -- or what have you.  You have to be civilized for that, with its attendant psychological insecurity and loss.

And that is why I don't feel that human existence is necessarily one of suffering, as the Buddha taught.  Humans were doing just fine for quite a long time.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Deviate]
    #19346632 - 12/30/13 02:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
In the past few days I have undergone a shift in consciousness and many new possibilities have opened up for me. One such possibility is that suffering is optional.

Have anyone else experienced this as a possibility and then actually gone after it actualized it? it seems to good to be to true, just too radical. I mean my whole life i have believed in suffering. I have believed that I needed to suffer.





Let's complicate it to a level adequate of the subject's importance. You know, saying it in all it's simplicity wouldn't make it justice from a victim's perspective.
We can probably agree that we have a certain control over that part of ourselves which we call our mind and thus all the suffering related to mind stuff can be expelled, maybe even completely, if we can only achieve such extraordinary level of control over our psyche.
It's closely related to that which we call ego.
For example: 'I worked very hard for a long time; I made some money; Someone coned me out of this money; I suffer'
There are many examples similar to this one in essence, but the optionality of the suffering due to an event like this comes down to belief. If you believe the world did something to you and you are the victim, you suffer. But we have to see that the suffering experienced is only done by yourself to yourself... Nobody cares! Maybe some pretend to care. Maybe someone even cares authentically, but it makes no difference at all. So you lost the money, so the boyfriend left you, so the cat died - that sucks, but feeling miserable about it sucks even more. You are doing it. Why? Are you insane? The answer is 'yes'. We are humans and insanity is our trait. We are somehow wired to do many things, that when looked upon and inspected are simply not sane. Mostly due to living in an environment we were not evolved to live in, or due to other reasons and we prefer to live in denial of it, thanks to this supposed 'ego'.
Now - when you see this far, you can start dealing with it. If your left brain is dominant, you will have a seemingly easier job dealing with the psychological suffering, because you believe in logic and reason. You are analytical, so you will think it through, and decide it's not worth it. The feelings of regret will occasionally pop up and you will dismiss them due to their irrationality.
If you are right brained, you will almost inevitably get hanged up on the fact that you are a victim and suffer it through until the wound heals, but you can find some comfort in realizing that you are drawing a lot of your inspiration out of your wounds.
Sadly, what is going on in both cases is, you are transforming the suffering into another form. It's weavelength if you will. From conscious into subconscious. Anger to melancholy, sadness to apathy etc. They become your 'psychological baggage'.
This happens because you never released the conflict in yourself. Attention, this is important: The only way you can release it, is forgiveness. And just because Jesus loves you and you dislike Jesus, because Jesus is church and they are criminals isn't going to help you at all. The world is not black and white, that's why yinyang has a black dot in white half and a white dot in the black half. If you are not prepared to forgive it means you are literally choosing to suffer. There is no other way.
In the reality(self-realization), the whole concept of a grudge and forgiveness falls apart and there is nothing to forgive at all, so the psychological suffering is gone, but there is also the cessation of identification, so there is also nobody to suffer at all. There is also a seeing that now is all there is, so worry(future) and regret(past) don't make sense anymore either. The problem with this is, that you can't expect a person who hasn't had an experience to take these things on faith. They actually shouldn't take anything on faith. It's some pretty wild stuff to just believe because someone said it anyway.
There can be a Parsons who pretends he 'is not' but the fact is - he is here, so it's just another mask the ego has taken. Trust me, nobody is enlightened, nobody can be enlightened, enlightenment is enlightened, but many had had a glimpse and he certainly did. You can have an ego that understands and thus avoids suffering, but it's also optional. You can still easily suffer if you want to, with increased intensity.
Attachment is the keyword here. The more attached you are, the harder to forgive and this means all of it. Can you even imagine what it would be like if you were not attached to your kids? your family? your left knee? your eyesight? Money fades a bit in comparison, doesn't it? The more you're attached, the more you will suffer when it's gone. And it will be gone. Panta rei and everything passes.

The more obvious suffering issue is physical pain. Let's see a Parsons 'not be' after a decent kick in the nuts :lol:
The physical pain is. There is no way around it. Still with disattachment it's much, much different.
The problem is - you have to lose attachment to yourself. Now this is a strange concept that rarely even comes to mind. It's pretty damn advanced to see your leg and value it about as much as a rock on the sidewalk. In reality they are the same, but again, can't just expect people taking it on faith. It's not like it's obvious.
Instead what you can do is, you can focus your consciousness on the pain. Observe it and be curious about it. In this state you are no longer victimizing yourself. We never think of doing that, because it's an act of courage, where we don't expect to benefit from it. It's simply counter-intuitive. Pain is something we run from, not move towards, yet it's the best thing you can do to remove suffering. This works with all forms of pain - hunger, heat, injury, even abstinence. It isn't easy to do this, but you can practice it. Not even necessarily on pain. Just practice focusing your attention on parts of your body as a form of meditation.

So, this is my argument for why suffering is absolutely optional.


--------------------
It's fine.


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Deviate]
    #19346680 - 12/30/13 02:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Any and all suggestions (including those couched in esoteric mystical mumbo-jumbo) that occasional suffering is anything but normal for human beings are extreme bullshit and a major, major disservice to the human race.

I'm 100 percent confident that no human being has ever attained a higher level of consciousness by being told that his or her sufferings are illusory, unreal, unnatural, etc.  All these teachings do is disempower people by making them feel broken or incomplete.  Also, these teachings help keep the ruling class of priests and gurus in power by suggesting that they are in possession of the key to ending suffering and you are not. 

Bottom line (imo):  You are not broken or incomplete if you occasionally suffer.  All human beings suffer from time to time.  If you have a mind and a body, you suffer.  Period.  End of story.

If you suffer more than occasionally, seek medical help.  Your brain chemistry is probably out of whack, and there are very effective medications on the market today that can make the situation better for you.


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OfflineSse
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19346686 - 12/30/13 02:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"whatever comes together eventually has to come apart; therefore, all composite things are described as suffering." -Thich Nhat Hanh

I don't think it is so much as all things are inherently suffering, that life is suffering.. in accordance with the four noble truths, describing attachment as a cause of difficulty or dissatisfaction.... all things have the potential for causing suffering.

"If things are impermanent, are they suffering or well-being?"
"They are suffering, World-Honored One."
"If things are suffering, can we say that they are self or belong to self?"
"No, World-Honored One."

The Buddha also spoke sermons interchanging suffering with nirvana

three dharma seals, impermanence, nonself, nirvana

"To put suffering on the same level as impermanence and nonself is an error. Impermanence and nonself are "universal." They are a "mark" of all things. Suffering is not. It is not difficult to see that a table is impermanent and does not have a self separate of all non-table elements, like wood, rain, sun, furniture maker, and so on. But is it suffering? A table will only make us suffer if we attribute permanence or separateness to it. When we are attached to a certain table, it is not the table that causes us to suffer. It is out attachment. We can agree that anger is impermanent, without a separate self, and filled with suffering, but it is strange to talk about a table or a flower as being filled with suffering. The Buddha taught impermanence and nonself to help us not be cause in signs."

"to say life is suffering", is to general. To say that craving is the cause of all our suffering is too simplistic. We need to say, "The basis for this suffering is such and such an affliction," and then call it a stomachache. If it is a headache, we need to call it a headache. How else will we find the cause of our suffering and the way to heal ourselves?"

"It is true that the Buddha taught the truth of suffering, but he also taught the truth of "dwelling happily in things as they are." To succeed in the practice, we must stop trying to prove that everything is suffering. In fact, we must stop trying to prove anything. If we touch the truth of suffering with our mindfulness, we will be able to recognize and identify our specific suffering, its specific causes, and the way to remove those causes and end our suffering."

The Heart of the Buddha's teaching by Thich Nhat Hanh


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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OfflineSse
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19346737 - 12/30/13 03:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"I'm 100 percent confident that no human being has ever attained a higher level of consciousness by being told that his or her sufferings are illusory, unreal, unnatural, etc.  All these teachings do is disempower people by making them feel broken or incomplete.  Also, these teachings help keep the ruling class of priests and gurus in power by suggesting that they are in possession of the key to ending suffering and you are not."


I dunno I think it depends on the context, that is basically what many of my books are saying but within context it makes sense. Saying it outside of explicit context and depending on perceptual make up I can see what your saying, those labels can be confusing on there own.

unnatural in a sense but perfecting natural in another sense, depending on context.

our interpretation of life is self created, not inherent... so in a sense illusory, unreal. In another sense perfectly normal, and affects realistically.. but without a known human created concept to label, then what is it? What is suffering without thought?


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: Sse]
    #19346872 - 12/30/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
...unnatural in a sense... depending on context.



I can think of no context in which suffering is "unnatural."  None whatsoever.

Life may be 100 percent bliss for you (generic "you") -- literally and/or mystically -- but that says zilch about my sufferings.  You have no way of characterizing or judging my sufferings. 

If you suffer because you feel you've been slighted in some way, it doesn't matter whether the "slighting" was real or imaginary.  Your suffering is real.  That's all that matters -- and no amount of spiritual practice or discipline will alter that fact.

There are ways I can reach a certain "peace," if you will, with my sufferings.  But suffering -- mental, emotional, physical -- is part and parcel of my human condition.

Is real, is not illusion, is not unnatural.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is it possible that suffering is optional? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19346991 - 12/30/13 04:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I would just like to interject with one point:

It's easy for us to pontificate about "suffering" while having access to computers and the internet, living in homes with heat and electricity and plenty of food.

I look at the third world and I have to wonder:  Is it really any business of ours to be discussing suffering?

Try living in Calcutta for a week and see how you feel about it.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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