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InvisibleViolet
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Objective & Inclusive grain comparisons - Not all grains are the same! * 4
    #19345519 - 12/30/13 09:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

As much as I'd like to keep this one short, I also intend to keep it to the point and this is not a very picture-heavy topic.
So, let's get chatty!


Not all grains are the same.
Seems like a duh thing, yet around here some seem to believe the only effective difference for our use comes down to price-per-pound.

I'd like to facilitate a true comparison (of grains themselves and for mycological use) regarding the many traits of many grains that makes them different.

Additionally I hope to reduce the apparent relevance of price-per-pound with grains - at least to show it is far from the only or main thing to consider when choosing substrate.


I've used a wide variety of grains in every grow method I've ever heard or thought of.  Birdseed (milo/millet), rye, wheat, corn, rice, grass seed, more.  Grass seed and rice have clearly become my favorite by far; grass seed for its incredible inoculation power and great all-around payoff, and rice as a source of much grainwater agar and as a substrate 'tailored' to my favorite grow methods (despite being somewhat troublesome in others if not prepared carefully).
I only keep around grass seed and brown rice now, so MY comparisons will be between these two, but as I used exclusively rye grain for quite some time before switching methods and substrates I'm quite familiar with how rye stacks up in these same comparisons.


The considerations, ordered by topic not importance, are:
Volume
Expansion ratio
Inoculation power
Sterilization
Yield  (& nutrition)
Usability
and finally, Price.


Grain difference consideration #1  is Volume-per-pound.


These photos speak volumes.  (Pun intended!)
100 grams of grass seed (left) and brown rice (right)


1 pound (454 grams) each of grass seed and brown rice.
Big difference, yeah?

At first it seems to only speak of the two grains' density.  Grass seed is definitely lighter per equal volume.  But it's not as if you get less weight for your volume... we purchase the weight, not the volume!  So instead it's as if you get more volume for your weight!

1lb of grass seed is almost a full quart (almost 1000mL), 1lb of brown rice is just short of 650mL.
So grass seed has over 150% the volume of brown rice.

However, it's not that simple since the importance of that is entangled with consideration #2.


Grain difference consideration #2  is Expansion ratio.

I prepared each of those grains (perfectly, might I add) and measured the usable volume by cups (8oz ~237mL)


The pound of grass seed became 8 cups, slightly over 2x its original volume.
I know that it can increase some more without being problematic, but I'm quite fine with how it is, so we'll consider it as expanding to 210%


The pound of brown rice became 6 and 1/2 cups, about 2.5x its original volume.
It can definitely expand Much more, but we definitely don't want it to or it quickly becomes almost impossible to use, so let's stick with expanding it up to 255%




So brown rice expands more than grass seed, by a comparative ratio of 6:5 rice:seed, 120% as much.
A good advantage for rice, but it nonetheless doesn't overcome the greater initial volume of grass seed.


Grass seed is still ~20% larger after equal volumes of both grains are prepared.

So for filling one's containers with prepared grain your dollar goes 20% further if you choose grass seed.



Grain difference consideration #3 is Inoculation power.

Grain-to-grain inoculation is all about inoculation sites, aka inoc points.
Each grain is a potential inoc point. A given volume of colonized grain will have a given number of grains thus of potential inoc points.


Forgive me for not desiring to count the number of grass seeds in a square inch.  May it suffice to say it's A LOT.
Much easier to count the number of rye grains, or even birdseed grains, in the same volume.


By any reasonable estimation, grass seed has anywhere between 3 to 6 times or more (lets conservatively go with 4 times) as many grains per volume as birdseed or rye.  Don't even think about corn.
So since a tablespoon of grains contains 4 times as many inoc points, it takes just 1/4th as much from the "master" jar to spread the mycelium just as well (if not even better).

That not only means that a "master" jar of grass seed goes 4 times as far, requiring only 1 jar instead of like 4, but that only 1/4th of the sterilization energy is required to produce the same amount of spread-ability.
Oh and remember that grass seed has a greater volume per pound too, meaning that "master" jar took less of your grain in the first place.


Thus, when using a grain as an inoculation source to spread mycelium, grass seed's value is so far ahead of the pack it's difficult to calculate.

Logically we shouldn't even consider using anything but grass seed as a "master" inoculant grain, even if it were somehow 6 times as expensive.  (Which it's usually not... seed and rice are both ~70¢/lb for me, rye and birdseed ~46¢/lb, wheat ~31¢/lb)

So I don't.
Though I believe birdseed would be 2nd place in this regard due to millet.



Grain difference consideration #4  is Sterilization.

This is one difference between grains that is little discussed, thus little realized, because our sterilization advice is a big safe number that's applicable regardless of any differences.
So it's said like a line from the Bible, "90min at 15PSI."  It's quite clear that so much time isn't always necessary, it's just a sort of "safe rule-of-thumb".
However this is of course assuming glass containers.  We know that the same divisions of mass into thin quart plastic containers would have the safe rule-of-thumb of just 60 minutes at 15PSI instead of 90.
Likewise, we know that different density of mass requires a different amount of energy to reach a certain temperature and thus will respectively take a different amount of time to reach that temperature.  Greater mass takes more time/energy, lesser mass takes less time/energy.


1 cup of my prepared grass seed weighed 115g.
1 cup of my prepared brown rice weighed 130g.

Combined with the other values we know, this can actually tell us a lot.

The main thing it tells us that:
454 grams of grass seed became ~920 grams when hydrated, uptaking ~466mL thus ~466 grams of water.  Prepared grass seed is ~51% water in my case.
454 grams of brown rice became ~854 grams when hydrated, uptaking ~400mL thus ~400 grams of water.  Prepared brown rice is ~47% water in my case.

The grass seed, although it expanded less by proportion, has taken up more water total. This gives it more mass total, but as it is divided up into 8 cups instead of 6.5, there is slightly less water in each container of grass seed than each container of rice.


The hydrated rice weighs ~113% by comparitive volume and would likely require that much more sterilization time/energy. Or the other way around,  grass seed weighs ~89% by comparative volume.
If I would sterilize 6 containers of grass seed for 40 minutes in my AA910, according to this I should sterilize the same in rice for 46 minutes.

Interestingly enough, that seems to have been the case in my experience.  When I started using brown rice much more I had several very slow-to-onset bacterial contaminations which never became visible but prevented the mycelium from sinking into the grain and before long became quite smelly of fermentation.  After discovering that it was always containers loaded in the Top of my cooker (further from the heat source) I determined that longer sterilization time was called for, and everything was smooth sailing after then.

(Note:  Greater mass only means greater sterilization time when considering similar/identical masses — 500 grams of water (in plastic) may only take 30 minutes to sterilize due to quick heat transfer whereas 130 grams of hydrated grains takes 45 minutes.  5 quarts of substrate all in one bag would take more time to sterilize than divided into 7 individual containers.  The variation based on heat transference leads me to suppose that Corn would have the highest sterilization time requirement)

So grain choice actually has some influence on how short sterilization time could be trimmed down to.

In this case, grass seed allows for a shorter sterilization time.


However, again it's not that simple since the matter is entangled with other facets of the comparison.

Remember that the pound of grass seed filled 8 cups and the brown rice filled 6.5, so by comparison the grass seed took 122% the space.  This means that the same weight of grass seed requires 122% the containers, and thus 122% the pressure cooker space.  This would likely be trivial in most batches, but over the long run it could mean 122% total cooker runs.

Wait though, remember that those sterilization runs could be shorter with grass seed, 89% shorter. This compensates for the majority of that difference.
In the end, the difference between these comparisons is somewhat Negligible!....
.... Unless you once again consider its entanglement to other factors!



Grain difference consideration #5  is Yield.

This is kindof a tough one.  I have not yet done fully controlled comparisons of the two grains for yield capability, so I don't yet have much in numbers to go by, but I can definitely outline how this interacts with the other differences and make some suppositions based on what my experiences seem to indicate thusfar.


"Biological efficiency" (BE) refers to the fresh weight of mushrooms yielded from dry substrate.
100 grams of fresh mushrooms from 100 grams dry sub is 100%BE.
Since mushrooms are ~90% water, 100%BE would mean 10 grams of dry mushrooms from 100 grams dry sub.
300%BE would be 30 dry grams of fruits from 100 grams of substrate.


So theoretically a yield of 136 dry grams (4.8oz) from 1 pound of grain substrate (16oz) is a 300%BE regarding that grain.


The question is:  Would an isolate culture yield the same from one grain as from another?

In the case of the above established comparisons between grass seed and brown rice,
would I achieve the same yield from 8 cups of seed as I would 6.5 cups of rice?


If the belief is that yield, and thus BE, would assuredly be the same with a pound of either grain... then the belief would be that a container of grass seed could only yield 82% of what a container of rice could, even though the total yield from a pound of each grain would be the same.


The real point is that there have been no quantitative comparisons of yield from any particular grain substrate – especially with not only controlled variables, but as few variables as possible Period.
So to say that different grains won't produce different yield would be ignorant,  IMO as ignorant as saying that they're all the same other than price-per-pound.



So I'm getting on a round of yield comparisons between grass seed and brown rice.

I hope to see others doing variable-controlled yield comparisons from various grains!
In fact I hope to see you guys putting up some good relative info about All of these comparative considerations!



Grain difference consideration #6  is Nutrition.

This actually fits mostly under yield. The reason it's listed here is to clarify something regarding "nutrition" - there is no single value of "nutrition" that one grain can have greater than another.  Obviously brown rice is likely to have a higher calorie count for us than grass seed, but such different organisms have equally different spectra of molecules that are of biological use to them.  Shiitake needs hardwoods to fruit despite their "low nutrition" and will not fruit from grains despite their "high nutrition".

I think that Cubensis is a grass mushroom species. I think that it is primarily an eater of grass chaff and the condensed fruits of its life's labor, seed.  I think that the close grassy similarities of other grains, as well as general nutrition, is what makes the organism able to equally colonize and consume just about any grain without the appearance of any preference -  especially the many fungi species that can only grow on grains but not fruit from them. This shows that the determining factor of fruiting success is not amount of nutrition but the makeup of it.  Clearly Cubensis is not the least bit picky, even eating the grassy nutrition-reduced manures of horses and cows, but this doesn't mean that the variety of characteristic makeup of different grains means nothing to it.  I think that Cubensis' metabolism is most closely "fitted" to grass and grass seed, and this may partially explain why I seem to get best results with it.


There's no denying that "nutrition" per se is not what our mushroom species want... try growing fungi on cooked beans or making a liquid culture from diluted tomato sauce.

Nutritional makeup is a big difference, the Biggest difference!
And of course different grains have different spectra of matter!



Grain difference consideration #7  is Usability.

This is likely the factor most closely thought of alongside price-per-pound.

How easy is the grain to prepare?
How easily is it broken-up and shaken when colonized?

Some grains burst more easily under the heat of preparation, some less.
Some grains are easy to separate to individuals when colonized, some not as easy.


There's no single sliding scale about any of this, either.
Birdseed is much easier to burst while cooking than brown rice is since rice is initially hardier and requires more simmer time, but rice is much easier to over-cook to a starchy and unusable point and will burst much more by proportion when reaching that point.


Birdseed has a mixture of small and large grains, each which would have their own ideal hydration and cooking time, but which cannot be separated to give each grain ideal treatment, so we have to find the best middle way.
Birdseed is often quite dirty and benefits from a rinse before preparation.
It also often includes sunflower seeds which are practically useless and many people including myself find the sunflower seeds, and birdseed all-around, very annoying for our uses.


Grass seed is very simmer-friendly and it's not nearly so easy to get it so wet and starchy that it's unusable.  However, due to its small size, it's quite easy to have too much water stuck amongst the grains if the grains themselves are fully-hydrated, which can cause wetness problems for users that don't strain dry the seed the long time necessary if it's over-boiled.

Additionally, grass seed can be Very loose if properly hydrated, making it a cinch to break-up when colonized.  However if it's wetter and becomes a bit clumpy, or if the mycelium is allowed to consolidate it for an extended time, the tiny seeds may become quite bonded to each other leaving 'marbles' of mycelium that don't easily break-up inside a glass jar.


Rye is hardy and not too starchy, making it the easiest (not counting lame corn) to break-up and roll around once colonized, but depending on how you prepare it can be quite easy to burst.


Rice can occupy the whole scale of traits depending on how well it is cooked and hydrated.  Left carefully on the dry side it can be quite easy to break-up and shake, but still not as easy as others, and if it's over-prepared then it's likely to riceball in clumps and be really annoying if you're trying to "spawn" it.
But that's not hardly a concern with my grow technique!


I've used the grainwater from these grains as agar, and it's been clear to me that grass seed and brown rice produce much richer water than the others and can definitely be counted on more as agar, adding to my belief that these are the most power-punching grains for our purposes.



Handling logistics come into play whenever a grain that otherwise might appear ideal for use has a traits that make it problematic for certain techniques.

Brown rice and rye are choice for an example.  On a theoretical scale of shakability, rye comes out in the lead regardless of how well the brown rice is prepared, even though rice may not be too far off when hydrated carefully.  However rice is far more suited as a single substrate than rye is, and I'm of the opinion that it may offer a better yield as well.

So rye would seem far preferable for "spawning to bulk" techniques, and rice far preferable for cased whole grain cakes like my grow method.



I'm of the opinion that these differences (all considerations) of grains should influence our grow method selection,
but others think that a selection of grow method should influence our choice in grains.

My selection is to combine what I have found to be the most efficient and effective grow with the most ideal grains.



Grain difference consideration #8  is Price  (and how it relates to value)
Yeah yeah, I'm gonna talk some about price.

Price-per-pound is NOT the bottom line of grain value.
Price per prepared volume is closer.

For instance... I purchase both grass seed and rice by the pound for ~70¢/lb.
If we load quart containers to 600mL with prepared grain:

5 pounds of grass seed ($3.50) would fill 16 quart containers, 22¢ each.
5 pounds of brown rice ($3.50) would fill 13 quart containers, 27¢ each.  120% more expensive per quart, in keeping with the above ratios.

So as you can see, the same price on the same volume of grains becomes a different effective volume for use.


Let's consider Wheat which is available bulk for what comes out to ~30¢/lb here.
This is less than Half the price of grass seed, but it has almost just half as much initial volume and expands by about the same proportion.

The initial 220% price difference by weight is seen to reduce to more like a 160% effective price difference by volume once both are prepared.

However grass seed is easier to prepare IME (it won't burst like wheat), has at least 4 times the inoculation point value, makes for much denser cakes, and distributes itself more which usually leads to a greater total efficiency and yield.

The larger grain size also means much less surface area that nutrition is exposed by.  I think that greater surface area means that mycelium are more easily to access the whole of nutrition by the time fruiting is completed.
By that premise, mycelium will assuredly be able to use all of the grass seed, but not quite all of the contents of rye/wheat/etc., which has actually been my experience when breaking apart spent grain cakes to observe their post-flushes state.

So even though you pay less per pound with larger grains, mycelium may not even get to use all of the pound.  The garbage bin or compost pile may get the leftovers instead.
(This is part of why the expanded volume and tiny size of grass seed may result in greater yield overall)


_____________________________________________________________


When all things are considered I find grass seed to be more than double worth the money, bringing it to a sort of tie with cheap wheat - a tie easily broken in favor of grass seed due to inoc point value and usability with my grow technique.
This would put it even further ahead of rye, and further delegates corn to movie snack material.



Simply enough, price-per-pound doesn't matter that much, or at least it's not the single factor devoid of other factors.
Other considerations that actually apply to our process and uses defame the importance of initial cost.

Let's see some controlled yield comparisons, and prepared volume comparisons of various grains!
Let's get real about the differences in grains!


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Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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Edited by Violet (12/27/15 02:57 PM)


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Invisibleindocult
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Re: Objective & Inclusive grain comparisons - Not all grains are the same! [Re: Violet]
    #19351156 - 12/31/13 01:21 PM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Very interesting read violet! 
I will have to try out some grass seed!


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OfflineCMOS
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Re: Objective & Inclusive grain comparisons - Not all grains are the same! [Re: indocult]
    #19528855 - 02/06/14 03:42 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Wow good breakdown here, missed this post seemed to have slipped under the radar.  I've switched back and forth between rye, wbs, and grass seed.  (working with rye now, have a 50lb bag to burn through) Just picked up some grass seed ($!) to try experimenting with though.  Like the consideration for volume vs price per pound, hadn't really considered that.

Rye is definitely my favorite so far do to consistency and i have hydration down for it down to the T.  See if I have better luck with grass seed this go around.


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Offlinepsylosymonreturns
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Re: Objective & Inclusive grain comparisons - Not all grains are the same! [Re: CMOS]
    #19529565 - 02/06/14 09:05 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I hated grass seed when i first tried it. But with some of these wierd exotics i grow, rye is too big. So i am retrying seed again. Do you use gypsum with seed?


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Objective & Inclusive grain comparisons - Not all grains are the same! [Re: psylosymonreturns]
    #19529572 - 02/06/14 09:06 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

No I don't bother to use gypsum anymore.

What didn't you like about it?


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Objective & Inclusive grain comparisons - Not all grains are the same! [Re: Violet]
    #19529749 - 02/06/14 09:59 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I always liked grass seed and got great performance from it.  It's a bit harder to shake, and a bit harder to get the moisture content just right, but when you do it outperforms most other grains.  It also doesn't have to be rye grass.  I'm not sure if that's already been mentioned.

Gypsum will help shaking later, but most importantly it supplies calcium and sulfur, both of which are essential elements for best mushroom development.
RR

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18542750#18542750
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6931051#6931051


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Re: Objective & Inclusive grain comparisons - Not all grains are the same! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #19530919 - 02/06/14 02:34 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Can you tell me exactly how you prepare your brown rice? I'm assuming you don't use vermiculite, which I'm interested in doing


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OfflineCMOS
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Re: Objective & Inclusive grain comparisons - Not all grains are the same! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #19531460 - 02/06/14 04:14 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bit harder to get the moisture content just right




That was my problem, but I only used a few pounds of it when I was starting out so I would probably have better luck now. I'm just about through my first 50# bag of organic rye from azure.  Ended up being pretty cheap for me compared to local options.


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Re: Objective & Inclusive grain comparisons - Not all grains are the same! [Re: ScriabinAnime]
    #19531571 - 02/06/14 04:33 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Excellent write up:thumbup:  Do you intend to follow up with actual tests and results?  I'd like to see that.


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Offlinepsylosymonreturns
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Re: Objective & Inclusive grain comparisons - Not all grains are the same! [Re: Violet]
    #19532311 - 02/06/14 07:17 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
No I don't bother to use gypsum anymore.

What didn't you like about it?




I am just so used to rye. :shrug: I found it messy, it was clumpy and it was just a bit harder to use. But I kinda need it now so I will be making the switch, plus adding some gypsum . :thumbup:


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Re: Objective & Inclusive grain comparisons - Not all grains are the same! [Re: psylosymonreturns]
    #19532447 - 02/06/14 07:53 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I just started a big batch of RGS today, see how it goes once its PCed. 

I also threw some gypsum in, I have tons of it on hand.


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Re: Objective & Inclusive grain comparisons - Not all grains are the same! [Re: 1down5up]
    #19534151 - 02/07/14 06:56 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Wow thanks for taking the time to write this, i just started out and have been using grass seed and haven't quite figured it out.. now i think my jars will stand a chance  :greatjob:


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Re: Objective & Inclusive grain comparisons - Not all grains are the same! [Re: Violet]
    #20030753 - 05/23/14 02:42 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

thanks for taking the time to post this! it is very informative. on the gypsum topic i've have been all around town trying to find powdered gypsum and not the granular kind. also a gypsum that doesn't have a bunch of additives.. my local brew show has some but at a premium. maybe because its food grade? what should i be looking for on the ingredient list for gypsum?


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Re: Objective & Inclusive grain comparisons - Not all grains are the same! [Re: madLyfe]
    #20041985 - 05/26/14 09:06 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Calcium carbonate is the active ingredient in agricultural lime,
calcium sulphate is found in gypsum.

I'm in the same boat, so far Im using construction gypsum  till I can find the agricultural type,

chalk is gypsum (calcium sulfate), mixed with talc and other stuff.
Also crushed egg shells is  calcium carbonate,  you need to remove the membrane before powdering it.


Its confusing :s


Grass seed looks like the bomb for cakes, but I guess in a jar its gonna be hell on earth to try to shake.


I dont like wbs and since its not meant for human consumption ,  who knows for how long was stored and in what conditions,
thus the higher bacterial load count.

With grains the fresher the better, right?


Edited by akalais (05/26/14 10:10 AM)


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Re: Objective & Inclusive grain comparisons - Not all grains are the same! [Re: akalais]
    #22677197 - 12/19/15 08:33 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Grass seed FTW


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