Home | Community | Message Board


Myco Supply
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 21 hours
Killing your enemies
    #1934322 - 09/20/03 03:14 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Ok Shak, Fire away!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If a group of people wants to kill you, you don't try to reason with them, or ignore them and hope they will go away. You kill them first


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



But what if your just paranoid and you are killing people who dont want to kill you? Once you start doing that though you can be sure people will want to start killing you, and all your paranoid fantasies come true.
Its this sort of logic that leads to ideas such as Its a good idea to kill Arafat because he is an obstacle to peace. Hmmm..we want peace, so lets start killing people! Fucking genius.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Arabs have been intentionally targeting civillians since the beginning of the whole damn conflict. When they all attacked Israel in '48 they had every intention of killing every last Jew in the region.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I mean where do these fucking Arabs get off? Its not like they had just been turfed off land they had lived on for generations to make way for a country they hadnt even agreed to. Oh hold on, thats exactly what happened.
You make it sound like the Jews were blameless. What about Deir Yassin? The attrocities there took place in April of 1948.


link

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Early in the morning of Friday, April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun, headed by Menachem Begin, and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. It was several weeks before the end of the British Mandate. The village lay outside of the area that the United Nations recommended be included in a future Jewish State. Deir Yassin had a peaceful reputation and was even said by a Jewish newspaper to have driven out some Arab militants. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and one plan, kept secret until years afterwards, called for it to be destroyed and the residents evacuated to make way for a small airfield that would supply the beleaguered Jewish residents of Jerusalem.

By noon over 100 people, half of them women and children, had been systematically murdered. Four commandos died at the hands of resisting Palestinians using old Mausers and muskets. Twenty-five male villagers were loaded into trucks, paraded through the Zakhron Yosef quarter in Jerusalem, and then taken to a stone quarry along the road between Givat Shaul and Deir Yassin and shot to death. The remaining residents were driven to Arab East Jerusalem.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It goes onto say:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The massacre of Palestinians at Deir Yassin is one of the most significant events in 20th-century Palestinian and Israeli history. This is not because of its size or its brutality, but because it stands as the starkest early warning of a calculated depopulation of over 400 Arab villages and cities and the expulsion of over 700,000 Palestinian inhabitants to make room for survivors of the Holocaust and other Jews from the rest of the world.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Killing your enemies [Re: GazzBut]
    #1935087 - 09/20/03 11:11 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
But what if your just paranoid and you are killing people who dont want to kill you? Once you start doing that though you can be sure people will want to start killing you, and all your paranoid fantasies come true.




Paranoid? When we hunt down known terrorists and kill them it is justified. We were attacked, and we are killing those responsible. Iraq is a seperate issue from that. If you are talking about Israel here, how are they paranoid, everyone knows the terror groups are attacking their civilians.

Quote:

Its this sort of logic that leads to ideas such as Its a good idea to kill Arafat because he is an obstacle to peace. Hmmm..we want peace, so lets start killing people! Fucking genius.




It has worked over and over again throughout history. Sometimes you have to go to war to regain the peace. Remember WW2? Not everyone can be negotiated with.

Quote:

I mean where do these fucking Arabs get off? Its not like they had just been turfed off land they had lived on for generations to make way for a country they hadnt even agreed to. Oh hold on, thats exactly what happened.




Oh Gazz. The Jews bought most of their land from Arabs. Most of it was wasteland and was lightly inhabited. Furthermore, they were not attacked by the Palestinians per se. They were attacked by every Arab country around them though. There is also little evidence that the Arab population had these ancient ties to the land. Most of them were fairly nomadic, and moved from village to village quite often. This claim that they can trace their ancestory back for generations is not true. The Palestinians are not a distinct people. They are Egypians, Syrians, and just about any other Arab group you want to through into the mix.

Quote:

You make it sound like the Jews were blameless. What about Deir Yassin? The attrocities there took place in April of 1948.




I have always maintained that they have made mistakes. Show me a nation that has always been perfect.

Quote:

Early in the morning of Friday, April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun, headed by Menachem Begin, and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. It was several weeks before the end of the British Mandate. The village lay outside of the area that the United Nations recommended be included in a future Jewish State. Deir Yassin had a peaceful reputation and was even said by a Jewish newspaper to have driven out some Arab militants. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and one plan, kept secret until years afterwards, called for it to be destroyed and the residents evacuated to make way for a small airfield that would supply the beleaguered Jewish residents of Jerusalem.

By noon over 100 people, half of them women and children, had been systematically murdered. Four commandos died at the hands of resisting Palestinians using old Mausers and muskets. Twenty-five male villagers were loaded into trucks, paraded through the Zakhron Yosef quarter in Jerusalem, and then taken to a stone quarry along the road between Givat Shaul and Deir Yassin and shot to death. The remaining residents were driven to Arab East Jerusalem.




Do you know what happened to the Irgun and the Stern Gang afterwards? They were sytematically disarmed by the Israeli government. This wasn't an Israeli military move, it was carried out by terrorists.


Quote:

The massacre of Palestinians at Deir Yassin is one of the most significant events in 20th-century Palestinian and Israeli history. This is not because of its size or its brutality, but because it stands as the starkest early warning of a calculated depopulation of over 400 Arab villages and cities and the expulsion of over 700,000 Palestinian inhabitants to make room for survivors of the Holocaust and other Jews from the rest of the world.




Ah, at least the author didn't pick the largest number possible like Alex. First of all the UN put the number at around 400,000 people. Many of these people were told to leave by Arab commanders. Others ran because of the war. A war that was started by Israel's neighbors, not Israel. The Israelis NEVER had a policy to get rid of the Arabs. They has lived together in peace many times before this happened. The Arab states on the other hand, and the Palestinian leadership at the time, wanted to 'murder them all'.

The number of refugees was highly exagerated by the Arabs. The UN actually redefined what a refugee was just for this case. Many of the people had lived in their villages for as little as two years, and when they fled, many of them moved to nearby villages. The main thing to remember is that the Israelis never had a policy of running off all the Arabs.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Killing your enemies [Re: shakta]
    #1935156 - 09/20/03 12:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Paranoid?

What if you killed someone and then realised that what you'd read in a 2 year old article in the telegraph had been wrong?

Do you know what happened to the Irgun and the Stern Gang afterwards?

Yes, the operations commander of the stern gang became prime minister of Israel. The leader of Irgun became another prime minister of Israel.

This wasn't an Israeli military move, it was carried out by terrorists.

So why punish the palestinians for what "terrorists" do?

The main thing to remember is that the Israelis never had a policy of running off all the Arabs.

Why bother to remember something so wrong and utterly ridiculous?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Killing your enemies [Re: Xlea321]
    #1935336 - 09/20/03 01:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
What if you killed someone and then realised that what you'd read in a 2 year old article in the telegraph had been wrong?




Nice try Alex. I have posted one two yearold article, about Saddam possibly knowing about 9/11. Big deal. Now you are going to try to use that in every argument?

Quote:

Yes, the operations commander of the stern gang became prime minister of Israel. The leader of Irgun became another prime minister of Israel.




Yeah, 30 years later. They were disarmed in '48 though.

Quote:

So why punish the palestinians for what "terrorists" do?




Maybe because the breed terrorism, and generally would love to see Israel disapear. Maybe because they support people like Arafat? Groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad bring every unfortunate thing that happens to the Palestinians onto their own people. I know you don't get this, because you think no one is responsible for their actions. You like to side with terrorists like Arafat, and Hussein.

Quote:

Why bother to remember something so wrong and utterly ridiculous?




Do you have any proof the Israelis were not willing to live side by side the Arabs? The Arabs in the area fled the war, that other Arabs started. You act like the Israelis started the war.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 21 hours
Re: Killing your enemies [Re: shakta]
    #1935465 - 09/20/03 02:56 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Paranoid? When we hunt down known terrorists and kill them it is justified. We were attacked, and we are killing those responsible.




Yes but since 9/11 how many known terrorists have you actually killed? As a percentage of the total it is probabaly quite small.
How many people have died at the hands of the US since 9/11? The US has killed far more innocent people than died on 9/11. How can you justify all these innocents dying? Is evey American worth three Arabs or something? Just because the average yank weighs three times the avarage arab doesnt mean they are worth more as far as Im concerned. All that has really been achieved is increasing the threat of terrorism around the world. There have actually been more terrorist attacks since the war on terror begun. Now it turns out British intelligence warned Blair and his cronies that this was the most likely outcome. Blair chose to ignore that. Obvioulsy Bush wasnt interested in this little tidbit of advice from British Intelligence either. Sadly he chose to quote the spin doctored version which Tony released later.
So no success in protecting the masses from terrorism so far but a fair bit of success in making sure a tiny fraction of the US will make themselves enough cash to reinforce their nuclear bunkers. So at least they will be safe...

Quote:

It has worked over and over again throughout history. Sometimes you have to go to war to regain the peace. Remember WW2? Not everyone can be negotiated with.





It will only have worked when there are no more wars. I would guess that as a species we have been at war almost constantly so I dont see how you can really claim that war can achieve peace. It seems to me all it achieves if you win a war is that you can have a bit of a breather before it all starts again. You will not find peace by fighting. Peace and War are at opposite ends of a spectrum so how can you be truly moving towards peace when you are at war?
As for killing Arafat to look for peace, anyone with half a brain can see that if the Israeli's kill Arafat the Palestinians are going to go fucking crazy. Not to mention the rest of the arab world.
Are Sharon and his people really that stupid? Dont they realise killing Arafat would be a massive act of provocation? They would be opening themselves upto a whole wave of suicide attacks and maybe worse. It seems fairly likely that this would be the upshot of these attacks. Its not rocket science...


Quote:

Oh Gazz. The Jews bought most of their land from Arabs. Most of it was wasteland and was lightly inhabited. Furthermore, they were not attacked by the Palestinians per se. They were attacked by every Arab country around them though.




The Jews may have bought some of the land, Id like to see some proof of your claim it was most of the land please! but Im sure I read somewhere that most of the land was bought from rich Arab landowners, many of whom simply moved to countries such as Egypt and left their land behind, along with the working class Palestinians. You can be sure the majority of Arabs were not ecstatic with this turn of events. But how did we get to this stage where the Jews were granted their state anyway?

I have just found this site which gives a chronology of events leading upto this situation. I dont know how reliable it is and Im aware it is obviously biased but I think it gives a good overview of how things developed in Palestine.

LINK

In 1881 the Ottoman empire was the mover and shaker in the middle east. That year the Ottoman government gave permission for foreign Jews to settle throughout the Ottoman Empire, excluding Palestine.

In 1882...

Quote:

First wave of 25,000 Zionist immigrants enters Palestine, coming mainly from Eastern Europe.
Baron Edmond de Rothschild of Paris begins financial backing of Jewish colonization of Palestine.
Ottoman government adopts policy allowing Jewish pilgrims and businessmen to visit Palestine but not to settle there.
Ottoman government informs Jewish leadership in Constantinople that it views Zionist colonization in Palestine as a political problem.




So with the backing of the super rich, somethings never change eh?, the Jews decided to move in anyway. Its not like the Ottamans were being completely unreasonable, they offered to let foreign jews settle anywhere else in their empire but they saw the colonisation of Palestine as a political problem. They may have been bang on the money but that is surely one of the biggest understatements of all time!

Over the next ew years...

Quote:

1884

Ottoman government decides to close Palestine to foreign Jewish businessmen but not to Jewish pilgrims.
1887 - 1888

Palestine divided by Ottomans into the districts of Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre - the first was attached directly to Istanbul, the others to the wilayet of Beirut.
1891

German Jewish millionaire, Baron Maurice de Hirsh, founds Jewish Colonization Association (JCA).





So the Ottamans decided to stop Jewish business men who were more than trying to establish themseleves in the area and further the cause of Zionism but they were happy for Jewish pilgrims to continue to journey to Jerusalem. Sounds fairly reasonable to me. And then the Jews get some more european financial clout behind their cause

And on..
Quote:

1892

Ottoman government forbids sale of state land to Foreign Jews in Palestine.
1893

European powers pressure Ottoman government to permit Jews legally residents in Palestine to buy land provided they establish no colonies on it.
1896

Jewish Colonization Association (JCA) begins operations in Palestine.
Theodore Herzl, an Austro-Hungarian Jewish journalist and writer, publishes Der Judenstaat, advocating establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine or elsewhere.
Ottoman Sultan Abd-al Hamid II rejects Herzl's proposal that Palestine be granted to the Jews.
JCA starts assisting Zionist settlement in Palestine.





So you can see the legitimate government of the time has tried to stop the Jews buying any land and have resisted any calls or a jewish state but the Jews have shown no respect for this legitimate government and have carried on apace.

This trend of Europeans pressuring the Ottaman empire and the jews disregarding them completely continues all the way up until the first world war which ends with Palestine occuppied by the british. No doubt we may have made some vague comments about helping the locals or some such thing but back in those golden days rabid colonialism was so much easier to get away with!
After it was decided the Ottomans would not be returned to power it all started to go down hill for the Palestinians. Remember by now they had been wary of the threat of zionism for a long time and their fears were proving to be right. So just because after years of coercion and european intervention the Jews manouvered themselves into a posistion to buy land, does not in anyway justify the destruction of hundreds of arab villages and the exiling of hundreds of thosands of Arabs. Im not going to quibble over whether it was 200,000 or 900,000 because I dont think it makes a blind bit of difference.

Quote:

There is also little evidence that the Arab population had these ancient ties to the land.




Apart from the fact that Arabs have lived in that area for a real long time.

Quote:

Most of them were fairly nomadic, and moved from village to village quite often. This claim that they can trace their ancestory back for generations is not true.




People moved from village to village? Shit now it all makes sense! of course the Jews were entitled to uproot thousands of people against their will. The jews probabaly thought they were doing them a favour by turing them out of their village seeing how nomadic they were. And why cant they trace their ancestory back? Didnt they write anything down? Can you proove this? I doubt it very much.

Quote:

The Palestinians are not a distinct people. They are Egypians, Syrians, and just about any other Arab group you want to through into the mix.





The Jews are not a distinct people. They are French, German, Russian and just about any other European group you want to throw into the mix. So what?

Quote:

Do you know what happened to the Irgun and the Stern Gang afterwards? They were sytematically disarmed by the Israeli government. This wasn't an Israeli military move, it was carried out by terrorists.




They may have been dismantled but I found this

link
Quote:

Until Begin's election victory in l977, most pro-Zionist historians dismissed Revisionism as the fanatic fringe of Zionism; certainly the more extreme 'Stern Gang', as their enemies called Avraham Stern's Fighters for the Freedom of Israel, were looked upon as of more interest to the psychiatrist than the political scientist. However, opinion toward Begin had to change when he came to power, and when he eventually appointed Yitzhak Shamir as his Foreign Minister it was quietly received, although Shamir had been operations commander of the Stern Gang.





So people who hold with the ideals of the Stern gang continued to hold influence over Israeli policy even as recently as the 1970s. Yitzak Shamir took leadership of the Stern gang after Stern himself was killed. Shamir later went on to lead the entire Israeli nation.

Here is an interesting quote about the assasination of Count Folke Bernadotte a neutral diplomat in World War II, who had saved thousands of Jews from Nazi death camps. He was assasinated by the Lehi because he was believed to be pro-arab.

link
Quote:

"There are streets named after the assassins of Moyne and Bernadotte. They are historical figures not disavowed by the rhetoric of the state of Israel, nor is there any reflection on the fact that two terrorist leaders later became distinguished leaders of the republic," Ibish says. "And now people are saying that Arafat must have his Altalena." Ibish adds that Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, "never moved against the Irgun and the Stern Gang until after the state was established and secured, which is definitely not true in the case of the Palestinian Authority. Essentially, the Israelis are asking the Palestinians to do something they themselves refused to do."





--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Killing your enemies [Re: GazzBut]
    #1935866 - 09/20/03 05:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

Yes but since 9/11 how many known terrorists have you actually killed? As a percentage of the total it is probabaly quite small.
How many people have died at the hands of the US since 9/11? The US has killed far more innocent people than died on 9/11. How can you justify all these innocents dying? Is evey American worth three Arabs or something? Just because the average yank weighs three times the avarage arab doesnt mean they are worth more as far as Im concerned. All that has really been achieved is increasing the threat of terrorism around the world. There have actually been more terrorist attacks since the war on terror begun. Now it turns out British intelligence warned Blair and his cronies that this was the most likely outcome. Blair chose to ignore that. Obvioulsy Bush wasnt interested in this little tidbit of advice from British Intelligence either. Sadly he chose to quote the spin doctored version which Tony released later.




We have desimated the ranks of Al Qeada by as much as 70%. There has not been another attack since the war on terror began. I don't really care about your little 'creating terror' opinion. If more decide to become terrorists we will kill them as well. They should not have attacked us to begin with.

Quote:

So no success in protecting the masses from terrorism so far but a fair bit of success in making sure a tiny fraction of the US will make themselves enough cash to reinforce their nuclear bunkers. So at least they will be safe...




There have not been any more attacks on our soil. That sounds like a pretty good job of protecting us. The rest of this just sounds like your typical libbie slobbering.

Quote:

It will only have worked when there are no more wars. I would guess that as a species we have been at war almost constantly so I dont see how you can really claim that war can achieve peace. It seems to me all it achieves if you win a war is that you can have a bit of a breather before it all starts again. You will not find peace by fighting. Peace and War are at opposite ends of a spectrum so how can you be truly moving towards peace when you are at war?




Oh Christ. Save us from people that think like you. So, if someone attacks you to preserve the peace you just let them keep attacking you with no retribution?

Quote:

As for killing Arafat to look for peace, anyone with half a brain can see that if the Israeli's kill Arafat the Palestinians are going to go fucking crazy. Not to mention the rest of the arab world.
Are Sharon and his people really that stupid? Dont they realise killing Arafat would be a massive act of provocation? They would be opening themselves upto a whole wave of suicide attacks and maybe worse. It seems fairly likely that this would be the upshot of these attacks. Its not rocket science...




The Palestinian nutballs are already crazy. As my friend the Iranian told me one day about the Arabs in general "They are all fucking crazy man. They don't know how to talk something out without shooting each other". Arafat forments terror against Israeli civillians. It sure is easy to sit in England and tell someone else not to protect their kids. Say your family was blown up by a bomber on a bus, would you want your government to do nothing about it?

Quote:

The Jews may have bought some of the land, Id like to see some proof of your claim it was most of the land please! but Im sure I read somewhere that most of the land was bought from rich Arab landowners, many of whom simply moved to countries such as Egypt and left their land behind, along with the working class Palestinians. You can be sure the majority of Arabs were not ecstatic with this turn of events. But how did we get to this stage where the Jews were granted their state anyway?




Sounds like you need to study the history of the region some more. Yes much of the land was bought from absentee landowners at extremely high prices. A lot of the land was uninhabitable wasteland and swamps that the Jews then drained and farmed. If the majority of the Arabs didn't like it they should have bought the land themselves, but they didn't. The Grand Mufti tried to say that the sellers of the land had no choice because they were poor, which we know is bullshit, since most of them were rich as you said.

Quote:

I have just found this site which gives a chronology of events leading upto this situation. I dont know how reliable it is and Im aware it is obviously biased but I think it gives a good overview of how things developed in Palestine.




I am not responding to the crap from that site. It is one of the most biased I have seen. Here is the short and skinny of how this situation came to be. Palestine was created by the Romans, they incorrectly named it that based on the biblical tribe known as the Philistines, which modern day 'palestinians' are not related to in any way. Later the Ottoman Empire (Turks) controlled it for centuries. Arabs and Jews lived in the area in relative peace for a very long time side by side under the rule of the Turks. When the Turks were defeated after WW2 Britian split out 4/5ths of Palestine and formed what is now known as Jordan. Jews in the area were kicked out, or they could stay and live a live just above a slave. This happened throughout the Arab countries. The British and the League of Nations then decided to split the remaining land between the Arabs and Jews, so the Jews could have a homeland in the area they had been part of for most of recorded history. You see, there have always been Jews in the area. Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority for centuries, and was the site of the Jewish temples that existed before Islam was a religion at all.

Anyway, the Arabs that were left have become known as Palestinians. They have continually rejected a two state solution to the problem for nearly 100 years. The Britons ended up giving control of the entire area to the Grand Mufti who, like his nephew Arafat, wanted to kill all the Jews. They were routinely abused and murdered. This is the guy that conspired with Hitler to set up concentration camps in Palestine to eliminate all the Jews in the area. After they lost in WW2, and the UN was formed, Israel was created as the national homeland for the Jews. Shortly thereafter in 1948 all of the Arab countries decided, along with the now convicted Nazi war criminal Grand Mufti, that they would finish what Hitler started and 'murder all of the Jews', and 'push them into the sea'. As we know they were unsuccessful in that attempt. At the time though the Arab countries occupied some of the land and continued to do so until 1967 when Israel took the land because it was being used to attack them. Ever since then the remaining 'palestinian' territories have been occupied off and on. Both sides have most definately committed horrible acts at times, but MOST Israelis have never had a desire to wipe out the Arabs, like the Arabs have desired to kill them. Occasionally overzealous Israelis have commited horrible acts, or allowed them to happen. The neighborhood is not real friendly to them, and they have overreacted at times to be sure.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMusicSucks
Illegal Smile
Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 35
Re: Killing your enemies [Re: shakta]
    #1935890 - 09/20/03 06:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I am not responding to the crap from that site.



Theough you did respond to it, with undocumented information no less...


--------------------
There is no dark side of the moon really... Matter of fact, it's all dark.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Killing your enemies [Re: MusicSucks]
    #1935926 - 09/20/03 06:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

No I simply stated events the events that led to the forming of Israel. I don't need some biased website to tell me how things went. I know how the went.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 21 hours
Re: Killing your enemies [Re: shakta]
    #1937205 - 09/21/03 05:34 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I admitted the websiete was biased but just because something holds a bias doesnt mean the core facts are untrue. Can you refute any of the claims made by this biased website?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 21 hours
Re: Killing your enemies [Re: shakta]
    #1937240 - 09/21/03 06:19 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

We have desimated the ranks of Al Qeada by as much as 70%.




Unsubstantiated right wing propaganda.

Quote:

I don't really care about your little 'creating terror' opinion.




Its not only my 'little' opinion it is the opinion of british intelligence. Instead of burying your head in the sand perhaps you would like to present a cogent arguement which outlines why this opinion is untrue?

Quote:

Oh Christ. Save us from people that think like you. So, if someone attacks you to preserve the peace you just let them keep attacking you with no retribution?





So following your logic you shouldnt have a problem with muslim terrorists attacking America again. You see violence is a two way street. Attack and retribution is an endless cycle. The logic is so glaringly obvious.

Quote:

There have not been any more attacks on our soil. That sounds like a pretty good job of protecting us. The rest of this just sounds like your typical libbie slobbering.





Whos to say there would have been more attacks anyway?

Quote:

Sounds like you need to study the history of the region some more. Yes much of the land was bought from absentee landowners at extremely high prices. A lot of the land was uninhabitable wasteland and swamps that the Jews then drained and farmed. If the majority of the Arabs didn't like it they should have bought the land themselves, but they didn't. The Grand Mufti tried to say that the sellers of the land had no choice because they were poor, which we know is bullshit, since most of them were rich as you said.





You are just repeating the same arguement that I dismantled in my previous post.

Quote:


The Palestinian nutballs are already crazy. As my friend the Iranian told me one day about the Arabs in general "They are all fucking crazy man. They don't know how to talk something out without shooting each other". Arafat forments terror against Israeli civillians. It sure is easy to sit in England and tell someone else not to protect their kids. Say your family was blown up by a bomber on a bus, would you want your government to do nothing about it?





My friend the Iranian? Top class sources there Shak! My friend the American told me the US is run by powercrazed maniacs who want to rule the world. I once met a Jewish guy who told me Sharon is the living embodiment of evil.

Quote:

Arafat forments terror against Israeli civillians. It sure is easy to sit in England and tell someone else not to protect their kids. Say your family was blown up by a bomber on a bus, would you want your government to do nothing about it?





I would not want them to further provoke people who are capable of killing me. I live in London Shak. I used to work in Canary Wharf just after the IRA exploded a massive bomb there. I used to go past the blown out buildings every day. Im glad we didnt try and kill Gerry Adams or seek heavy handed retribution in the manner of the Israelis. Why? Because I know full well that the IRA would surely have retaliated and we would have been sucked into the same sort of cycle you see in Palestine.

Quote:

Arabs and Jews lived in the area in relative peace for a very long time side by side under the rule of the Turks. When the Turks were defeated after WW2 Britian split out 4/5ths of Palestine and formed what is now known as Jordan.




Arabs and a minority of Jews, who by the way were not European Jews lived there in relative peace. Turkish rule actually ended after the first world war Shak, not the second. The turkish empire who had ruled since the 1500s were opposed to the creation of the Jewsih state. Once Britain gained control it took less than 30 years for the creation of a Jewsih state populated by Europes refugees. You can see why the Arabs had a problem with this. I think you need to get your facts straight Shak.

Quote:

Jews in the area were kicked out, or they could stay and live a live just above a slave. This happened throughout the Arab countries.




Source please?

Quote:

The British and the League of Nations then decided to split the remaining land between the Arabs and Jews, so the Jews could have a homeland in the area they had been part of for most of recorded history. You see, there have always been Jews in the area. Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority for centuries, and was the site of the Jewish temples that existed before Islam was a religion at all.





So European power decides how to divide up foreign soil to let European Jews live on. Why werent the Arab league involved in this decsion that was to affect them so much? You see, there have always been Arabs in the area. So Jewish temples existed before Islam? Please explain how this justifies Europeans uprooting hundreds of thousands of Arabs whose families have lived in the area for centuries. By your logic, Native Americans should be able to claim any land they want in the US.

Quote:

Shortly thereafter in 1948 all of the Arab countries decided, along with the now convicted Nazi war criminal Grand Mufti, that they would finish what Hitler started and 'murder all of the Jews', and 'push them into the sea'.




Can you provide sources for these motives of finishing the job Hitler started? Sounds like your personal propaganda to me. Also you have slightly twisted the facts. The Arabs had been openly telling anyone who would listen that they would go to war if a Jewish state was created by the UN on arab soil against their wishes. The Arabs took full responsibility in April 1948 claiming they had told the world they would fight.

Quote:

but MOST Israelis have never had a desire to wipe out the Arabs, like the Arabs have desired to kill them.




More unsubstantiated propaganda.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Killing your enemies [Re: GazzBut]
    #1937278 - 09/21/03 07:24 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

My friend the Iranian? Top class sources there Shak!

LMFAO  :lol: 

First rate argument-demolishing there Gazz  :thumbup:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Killing your enemies [Re: GazzBut]
    #1937514 - 09/21/03 11:30 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

Unsubstantiated right wing propaganda.




Believe what you want to. Thousands of them are now dead or in custody.

[qute]Its not only my 'little' opinion it is the opinion of british intelligence. Instead of burying your head in the sand perhaps you would like to present a cogent arguement which outlines why this opinion is untrue?




Burying my head in the sand, huh? That is exactly what you propose we do Gazz. Basically you are saying that maybe if we ignore them they will leave us alone. That just does not make sense. They have attacked us repeatedly. UBL thought that we were to soft to retaliate. It is people like you that he was counting on. The same people Saddam is counting on. They think we don't have the intestinal fortitude to see things through.

Quote:

So following your logic you shouldnt have a problem with muslim terrorists attacking America again. You see violence is a two way street. Attack and retribution is an endless cycle. The logic is so glaringly obvious.




No, I assume they will attack us again if left to try it on their own. The thing you fail to comprehend is that they have been attacking us for years, and we always have shrunk back rom the challenge really. This is obviously a fundamental difference in thought between you leftists and people like me. The only thing these people understand is strength. If you appear weak, they will keep attacking you, just like in nature. We are animals after all Gazz.

Quote:

Whos to say there would have been more attacks anyway?




Why in the hell would you assume there wouldn't be? Do you really think there would have been no more attacks if we just let them be in Afghanistan? Come on man. They have attacked us repeatedly. From Beirut, to the embassy bombings, to the Cole, to both attacks on the WTC. These people have continued to attack us over and over.

Quote:

You are just repeating the same arguement that I dismantled in my previous post.




You didn't dismantle it at all. I know you are a socialist that doesn't think anyone can actually own anything, but most people can see that if someone sells you land you own it.


Quote:

My friend the Iranian? Top class sources there Shak! My friend the American told me the US is run by powercrazed maniacs who want to rule the world. I once met a Jewish guy who told me Sharon is the living embodiment of evil.




First of all, I was just illustrating a point. We were talking about the mosque bombing in Mosul, and that was his reaction. I think it is pretty accurate personally. I never said that he was the end all be all source or anything, so you can try again on 'destroying my argumen' as Alex said. It was an illustration from one man that has lived in the area, and I respect his opinion. That is all. Sharon is not the best man on the planet I will agree. He has done some fucked up shit in the past. The world can pretty much thank Arafat for him getting elected to begin with. Baruk was seen as to gentle by the Israelis after Arafat walked away from the peace table and started the current war that is going on in the area now.

Quote:

I would not want them to further provoke people who are capable of killing me. I live in London Shak. I used to work in Canary Wharf just after the IRA exploded a massive bomb there. I used to go past the blown out buildings every day. Im glad we didnt try and kill Gerry Adams or seek heavy handed retribution in the manner of the Israelis. Why? Because I know full well that the IRA would surely have retaliated and we would have been sucked into the same sort of cycle you see in Palestine.




I don't think the IRA is really a good analogy here. The Israelis have tried peaceful means repeatedly with these people, and they continue to spit it back in their face.

Quote:

Arabs and a minority of Jews, who by the way were not European Jews lived there in relative peace. Turkish rule actually ended after the first world war Shak, not the second. The turkish empire who had ruled since the 1500s were opposed to the creation of the Jewsih state. Once Britain gained control it took less than 30 years for the creation of a Jewsih state populated by Europes refugees. You can see why the Arabs had a problem with this. I think you need to get your facts straight Shak.




You are correct. I meant WW1. I was thinking ahead to WW2 while typing the post. The Turks that fought against your own country and mine during WW2 were opposed to forming a Jewish state? They were opposed to forming any state if you really want to get down to it. They were an imperialist regime, and Palestine was part of that empire. Yes the Jews were a minority in the area at the time. Thousans and thousands of them had already migrated to the area before WW1. Many more came after that. One thing you do have to look at thought is the fact that plenty of Jews have been in the area forever pretty much. Again Jerusalem had a Jewish majority, as did many other cities and villages for centuries. I have my facts straight.

Quote:

Jews in the area were kicked out, or they could stay and live a live just above a slave. This happened throughout the Arab countries.

Source please?




Do a google search. This article explains it pretty well though. Jews were kicked of most Arab countries, and some left voluntarily.

http://www.hsje.org/jews_kicked_out_of_arab_countrie.htm



Quote:

So European power decides how to divide up foreign soil to let European Jews live on. Why werent the Arab league involved in this decsion that was to affect them so much? You see, there have always been Arabs in the area. So Jewish temples existed before Islam? Please explain how this justifies Europeans uprooting hundreds of thousands of Arabs whose families have lived in the area for centuries. By your logic, Native Americans should be able to claim any land they want in the US.




First of all, after the fall of the Ottoman Empire the land had to be split up with lines being redrawn after any major war. The same thing happened after WW2 in Europe. When an empire that has occupied land for thousands of years is ended the land gets split up. As far as the Arab League goes, you are basically asking why the LOF did not ask the enemy they just defeated what they wanted to be done. Secondly as I have already illustrated the majority of Palestine was set up as an Arab state now known as Transjordan. This myth of the Israelis expelling all the Arabs is just that, a myth. Many of them left their villages at the direction of Arab leaders before any Israeli soldiers even showed up. Furthermore Israel let in hundreds of thousands of Jews that were kicked out of the Arab countries that had lived their for thousands of years. At the same time none of the Arab countries were willing to absorb any of the Arabs displaced by the war in '48 that these same Arab countries started. Native Americans signed deals with the US government quite often that led to the reservations they still occupy today. These indian nations are sovereign governments to this day as well.

Quote:

Shortly thereafter in 1948 all of the Arab countries decided, along with the now convicted Nazi war criminal Grand Mufti, that they would finish what Hitler started and 'murder all of the Jews', and 'push them into the sea'.




Quote:

Can you provide sources for these motives of finishing the job Hitler started? Sounds like your personal propaganda to me. Also you have slightly twisted the facts. The Arabs had been openly telling anyone who would listen that they would go to war if a Jewish state was created by the UN on arab soil against their wishes. The Arabs took full responsibility in April 1948 claiming they had told the world they would fight.




Sources for the motives?

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Mufti251141.html

This link is an argument against some opinion given in a book I have not read. It contains some of what Hitler told the Grand Mufti. They planned to wipe out the Jews in Palestine. This is not twisting any facts, and it is not propoganda at all. Do a search for yourself. I have posted links about this numerous times in this forum.

So the Arabs said they would attack? Big fucking deal. What does that prove? They also wanted to kill all of the Jews. So you think that because foreign Arabs did not want Israel to be formed it shouldn't have? OK, that makes sense. Were the hell should the Jews have gone Gazz? They had no other place to go. The European Jews and Jews all over the Arab world migrated to these places to begin with to escape the Romans that were torturing and killing them.

Quote:

but MOST Israelis have never had a desire to wipe out the Arabs, like the Arabs have desired to kill them.




More unsubstantiated propaganda.




It is not unsubstantiated propoganda at all. You can ignore the truth all you want, and continue to live in this wonderful Arab dreamworld. Show me anything that shows a distint majority Israeli program to wipe out the Arabs. If you actually look at the historical facts the Arabs DID want to get rid of the Jews. The Grand Mufti wanted them all to be murdered, and the leaders of the Arab League did as well.

This is a great MUSLIM site that illustrates how the Grand Mufti was responsible for everything from the Palestine conflict to terrorism of today.

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/AminAlHusseini.htm


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Killing your enemies [Re: shakta]
    #1937561 - 09/21/03 11:51 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Many of them left their villages at the direction of Arab leaders before any Israeli soldiers even showed up.

That's as good a description of fleeing in terror as you're likely to find.

What would it take to make you leave your home and town so someone else can live in it? I don't know about you but I'd have to be pretty terrified.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Killing your enemies [Re: Xlea321]
    #1937571 - 09/21/03 11:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The point is Alex that many of them were made to leave by Arabs not Jews. You still have shown zero evidence of an Israeli mandate to make the Arabs leave.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Killing your enemies [Re: shakta]
    #1937606 - 09/21/03 12:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

What do you mean a "mandate"? Are you expecting the jews printed public documents saying "Leave any palestinian where you find them"? You do know there are no signed documents by Hitler saying "Kill the jews" don't you? Does this mean the holocaust never happened?

Israel's tactics in expelling or terrorizing 750,000 Palestinians into fleeing their homes in the "first exodus" of 1948 and 1949 are by now fairly well known. The deliberate brutality employed to drive away another 200,000 Palestinians in 1967 is known to hardly anyone except the Palestinians themselves.

All of the new refugees of 1967 had heard of, and some had personally experienced, the cruel and ruthless behavior of Israeli forces in 1947 and 1948. Some feared the terrible fate of Deir Yassin, a village near Jerusalem where, in April 1948, after an artillery bombardment by the Haganah regulars who became the Israeli army after the state's creation a month later, Jewish irregular forces of Menachem Begin's Irgun Zvai Leumi and Yitzhak Shamir's Lehi (Stern Gang) massacred 250 Palestinian men, women and children. The fears of mothers among the refugees fleeing such villages were so acute that they covered their children's mouths to keep them from crying and being discovered and killed by the Israeli soldiers.


http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0390/9003017.htm


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Three year old ADV dealing with the Jews and the Iraq War MagicalMystery 1,377 16 10/22/05 01:36 PM
by Alex213
* Israel states that killing Arafat is "an option".
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
Snobrdr311 5,398 163 10/01/03 06:47 PM
by Phred
* PA clergy call for genocide of Jews
( 1 2 all )
zip 1,832 33 11/10/04 09:05 PM
by Great_Satan
* The relocation of Israel and the exiled Jew.
( 1 2 all )
nakors_junk_bag 1,164 21 12/13/05 01:03 PM
by SirTripAlot
* Gay Pride March... In Jerusalem??? DiploidM 1,421 15 11/13/06 09:25 PM
by SirTripAlot
* U.S. to Israel on Rantisi Killing
( 1 2 3 all )
Swami 2,991 51 04/23/04 10:43 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* Arafat changes his mind silversoul7 372 3 06/18/04 06:49 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* Arafat has suffered heart attack, admits aide wingnutx 426 2 10/08/03 04:40 PM
by wingnutx

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
1,102 topic views. 1 members, 2 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Mushrooms.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.229 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 14 queries.