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'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this?
    #19337362 - 12/28/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Sources include (1) Spiritual Nutrition by Gabriel Cousens, MD (2009) followed by corroborating information by (2) Michael McDonald-Smith in Zig Zag Zen: Buddhism and Psychedelics by Alan Hunt-Badiner (editor) (2002).

Indian and Hebrew terms are used in this writing. Here are definitions from the back of the book:

ojas (S) – vital life force energy and reserve of vital energy
prana (S) – vital life force
tamasic (S) – one of three gunas or states; the state associated with inertia; a veil of ignorance; sloth; junk food
vata (S) – one of the psychophysiological states or doshas in the Ayurvedic system; associated with anxiety, fear, and imbalanced energies
sattvic (S) – one of the three gunas or states; a state of holiness that points one inward to the Divine
Essenes (H) – esoteric, Kabbalistically oriented Jewish sect
Kabbalah (H) – esoteric spiritual path in the Jewish tradition of God-merging; receiving the Divine to share the Divine; Kabbalah is not a book, but a tradition of awakening
B'lee mah (H) – the Nothing
Mah (H) – with; the What (in juxtaposition to the Nothing, or without What – B'lee mah)
avadut (S) – a Liberated Being who lives wild, free, often alone in the forest



Drug Use    
The use of drugs depletes ojas and deranges the prana and the tejas. A typical ojas-depleting drug is marijuana; others include peyote, psychedelic mushrooms, LSD, ecstasy, cocaine, heroin, amphetamines, and ketamine. One of the most serious problems associated with these herbal and pharmaceutical drugs is their effect of hyperstimulating the serotonin concentrations through a variety of mechanisms to create neuronal destruction from an excess of serotonin, which then becomes oxidized. In this oxidized form, the serotonin is neurotoxic. A healthy serotonergic system acts like a neurochemical anti-stress system, maintaining balance, resilience, inner strength, and a sense of well-being. For this reason, the author considers the serotonin system a functional part of our ojas and general emotional well-being. When it is depleted, so is the ojas.

Evidence of neurotoxicity has accumulated for cocaine, amphetamines, ecstasy (MDMA), and Redux (a Prozac-like drug).[5] Drugs like ecstasy and LSD can boost not only serotonin, but also adrenaline and dopamine.[6] Clinically, the author can physiologically detect the damage for several weeks after someone has taken ecstasy. Lab studies with animals on neuron affects of Redux show that it destroys the branches of the serotonin neurons called axons.[7] In some cases these animal studies showed neurotoxicity when the drugs were administered just for days at dose levels that humans take for up to one year.[8] If the damage was not too severe, the neurons would sprout new branches.[9] The animals could still function with the destruction. The brain has tremendous capacity and reserve, but neuroscientists suggest that the effects of significant damage may not appear until a later age when the brain's neuronal reserve becomes depleted.[10] Research on Redux by Dr. Vina McCann at the National Institute of Mental Health, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, suggests that neurotoxicity is dependent both on dose level and duration. Redux is often compared to ecstasy as well as Prozac, which both significantly raise serotonin. Studies of ecstasy have shown that when the damaged serotonin neurons sprout new branches, there is a “highly abnormal” brain rewiring that does not follow the original brain pattern.[11] Some of the ecstasy studies, however, have been considered invalid because the researchers used amphetamines instead of ecstasy. The clinical reports of medical symptoms of ecstasy users, however, substantiate the author's concern and warning about the use of ecstasy, so he feels a warning now about its potential danger is as valid as warning about the dangers of cigarette smoking before thirty years of research conclusively proved the toxicity of cigarettes. High amounts of serotonin in the synapses of the neurons can be easily oxidized to form serotonergic neurotoxins.[12] Unfortunately, there is not enough long-term research on any of these drugs individually to make any definitive statements, but it is reasonable to assume that chronic usage or high amounts in one dose have the potential to cause brain damage, at least to the serotonergic neurons, with a concomitant decrease in normal serotonin production and disruption of neuron axons.

Clinical symptoms have been seen in chronic usage of LSD, ecstasy, ketamine, a variety of psychedelic mushrooms, and marijuana. The author has seen many people over the years who have “blown-out” their ojas and other brain functions with these drugs. Symptoms include emotional confusion, memory loss, loss of vital force, adrenal and liver depletion, post-drug depression, psychosis, and a disruption and disorganization of the flow of Kundalini. Kundalini can be disrupted with ayahuasca as well. Some people appear to be untouched by the use of these drugs in the short term, but there remains an unnecessary high risk for too many vulnerable drug users. The most vulnerable are people who have vata constitutions, are vata imbalanced, have been previously diagnosed with mental conditions, have a sensitive nadi system, or are dehydrated. One of the author's sub-specialties is repairing this type of damage as a way to support people's spiritual life, joy, and happiness.

The spiritual life provided by a high-prana diet and lifestyle takes one into the sattvic guna of increased clarity, brightness, and Light of the Divine. To some people, this intensity on spiritual, psychological, and emotional levels may be too intense. Marijuana, peyote, and other drugs that create a more tamasic or numbing state dampen the sattvic effect of a live-food diet. In Yoga, tamas is characterized by a veil of ignorance, sloth, lack of discipline, and lack of will power. Marijuana use, seen in this context, may be used as a way to dampen the prana. There are much safer and better ways to decrease vata, prana, and sattva. This does not mean that one may not get some visions or insights from these drugs, but psychedelic drug use is what is referred to in Ayurveda as sattva in tamas, and long-term use of psychedelics has the potential to keep one in the phenomenology of the astral planes and may retard spiritual development on the highest planes of Kundalini, Self-realization and merging with God. The author does not deny that psychedelic drug use has not been a powerful spiritual catalyst and door opener for many on the planet for their first spiritual experiences beyond the three-dimensional plane of so-called “normal life.” The question is, does the seeker choose to stay standing in the doorway or to walk through? Proper usage of these drugs in ceremony is common in talk, but rare in practice. The use of herbal or synthetic “consciousness drugs” is not the “medicine” way of the Essene and Kabbalistic paths. Their use is highly likely to be harmful in chronic or long-term use.

At this stage of limited research, ayahuasca does not seem to consistently have any problems with short-term or long-term chronic usage.[13] It is important to keep in mind the case study #1 in Chapter 4 – the subject who took ayahuasca after his Kundalini was awakened and suffered severe imbalances. People have felt they have benefited from onetime or occasional ceremonial use, often at the beginning stages of the spiritual path. Many who have been introduced to spiritual life through drug usage may become caught in the illusion of moving deeper on the path through repeated use. This one knows no Realized Being who supports the use of drugs for realization, neither historically nor in the present. That does not mean that ayahuasca taken in its natural setting in the Amazon under traditional shamanic guidance has not been effective in helping people clear up emotional and mental imbalances or helping people connect to the energy of Mother Gaia. Ayahuasca is primarily used by shamans as part of a spiritual healing ceremony. The more important point, however, is that you do not need any dependence on drugs to create these effects or healing. There are many meditators, including this one, who have had such experiences and teachings on a daily basis after the Kundalini awakens. Thinking you need drugs to have this experience creates the illusion of dependency and limits one's freedom to move in any direction in the sacred walk between B'lee mah and Mah in ordinary life. It requires no psychedelics to experience the silent wonderment of “awakened normality” that may be experienced as a result of living the Six Foundations. Once the Kundalini is awakened, the non-causal ecstasy, non-causal peace, and non-causal contentment of life that is our heritage is available regularly. The effect does not “wear off,” there is no “trip” to come down from, and there are no side effects. Awakened normality is our natural state. It does not depend on anything outside of us or anything we need to ingest. Freedom is independent of any external conditions. All we need is to be in the silence that allows us to transcend the limitations of the mind and brain. Drugs confine us to the chemistry of the brain and emotions and therefore limit us in this ultimate sense. The awakened life is about being exquisitely present in this world. This is the true miracle. It is not the limited phenomenological world of drugs; it is the real wow of life, as one dances in the Divine Presence and the whole world becomes alive and shares its sacred walk with you. Sai Baba of Shirdi, a great avadhuta and God-conscious Being, was so omnipresent that it took an average of one hour to walk fifty yards. Do we really need to travel to Brazil to take some drugs to feel alive? Does this really have anything to do with Liberation? The point the author is raising is not whether drugs, synthetic or organic, are dangerous, or have a high risk-to-benefit ratio, or not whether they are a valid path – but rather, where the path leads? For those who indeed have benefited from them as a door opener, are they a path that leads to full Liberation or perhaps only to the doorway? Drugs, like the ego of the mind-body complex they stimulate, must be let go if we are to go all the way to the Nothing. Those who dance in the I AM THAT require no props.

When introduced to other ways of building spiritual awareness, such as meditation and Yoga, often the drug usage significantly diminishes because the seeker has found more sustaining and less potentially toxic ways. As people mature spiritually and have an increasing experience of the non-causal contentment, peace, and joy of sattvic life, drugs gradually stop being considered as a means to evolve spiritually. Once one has the Kundalini awakened, tastes the nectar of sattvic life, and has established a spiritual foundation, drug use simply looks pale. The vast majority of Eastern and Western recognized Self-realized Beings do not recommend drugs as part of a deep spiritual path to Liberation. Mostly these drugs stimulate the phenomenology of astral plane experiences and insights, which is not the goal of Liberation.

Once the Kundalini is awakened, the author strongly recommends one does not do any drugs or harsh Yoga practices that force the Kundalini and interfere with the delicate process that has been activated. Simply supporting the Kundalini unfolding with the Six Foundations is enough. The Sacred Feminine has a Divine unfolding pattern all its own that is best respected and surrendered to. It is a feminine pattern of surrender rather than a masculine path of fitting into a pre-set form or forcing with techniques or drugs. The way of Kundalini is gentle and peaceful, and it knows how to help one through blocks in its own unique unfoldment. People who have had difficulty with Kundalini have typically been those who have tried to force the unfolding with drugs, excessive pranayama, or other extreme practices, or who have pre-existing mental disturbances. Aside from this, the author has seen hardly anyone have difficulty if they maintain their foundations of spiritual practice. The issue of drugs and Self-realization is a topic that serious seekers of spiritual Liberation need to honestly address. (pages 377-381)

5. Glenmullen, Joseph. Prozac Backlash. New York: Simon & Schuster, 2000.

6. Ibid. [this means 'same as above']

7. Ibid.

8. Primary Pulmonary Hypertension from Fenfluramine and Dexfenfluramine: A Systemic review of Evidence,” Journal of the American Medical Association 278 (1997): 666–72.

9. Westphalen, R. I. And Dodd, P. R. “The Regeneration of d,l-Fenfluramine-Destroyed Serotonergic Nerve Terminals,” European Journal of Pharmacology 238 (1993): 399–402.

10. McCann, U. D. Op. cit.

11. Fischer, C., Hatzidimitriou, G., Wlos, J., Katz, J., and Ricaurte, G. “Reorganization of Ascending 5-HT Axon Projections in Animals Previously Exposed to the Recreational Drug (3), 4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, ‘Ecstacy’),” Journal of Neuroscience 15 (1995): 5476–85.

12. Ibid. Wrona, M. Z., Yang, Z., Zhang, F., and Dryhurst, G. “Potentail New Insights into the Molecular Mechanisms of Methamphetamine-Induced Neurodegeneration,” National Institute on Drug Abuse Research Monograph Series 173 (1997): 146–74.

13. Grob, Charles and Metzner, Ralph. Personal communication. 2004.


More info on drugs from other parts of the book:


Some claim that many patients in mental hospitals are there because of an undiagnosed Kundalini awakening. This has not been the author's experience, neither as a psychiatrist having worked in mental hospitals, nor as a spiritual teacher involved with the subtleties of Kundalini. Manic episodes, spaced-out and disorganized thinking, or intense personal and even spiritual crises are not the same as a Kundalini awakening. Labeling them as such may make people feel good, but adds confusion to the process of getting proper help. It is, however, useful to redefine and appropriately turn the crisis, whatever it is, into an opportunity for psycho-spiritual growth. It has been the author's experience, from the Kundalini Crisis Clinic and in Muktananda's main ashrams in Ganeshpuri, India and South Fallsburg, N.Y., where he often performed in the role of a psychiatrist evaluating and supporting people having serious psychological difficulties, that many of the people who had difficulties with their Kundalini awakening had a previous history of psychotic episodes or a very brittle nervous system. These people would usually be carefully stabilized and compassionately sent back home to continue their spiritual work in a less intense, Kundalini-charged situation. It is important to understand that people with this sort of background do not need to stop their spiritual work, but should be very careful about practices that artificially force the awakening of Kundalini, intensify the energy after the awakening, or that in general amplify the nervous system energy before it is ready, whether or not there has been an awakening. (pages 22-23)


Healing Unbalanced Kundalini Energy
Since 1976, when the author and Dr. Lee Sanella started the first Kundalini Crisis Clinic in the world, the author has been working to understand the mystery of how Kundalini works. He has had the unique opportunity and blessing to work directly under Swami Muktananda helping people in the ashram in India and in the U.S. cope with imbalances in Kundalini. He also has had opportunities to work with people around the world in many different traditions, through the Kundalini Crisis Clinic and in his work at the Tree of Life Foundation, who have experienced some sort of difficulty with Kundalini. Fortunately, only a small percentage of people have difficulties. During this time the author has observed and treated a number of very interesting Kundalini crises (which are distinctly different from psycho-spiritual crises), which have given the author some insight. There is almost no current literature that seriously discusses the cause or correction of Kundalini imbalances with any particular insight into the situation in our modern context, so the author has been very much on his own, trying to sort this out. Based on Grace, through the author's scientific observation and the nature of people with several types of Kundalini imbalances, a theory has begun to emerge. The theory is based on several key experiences, described here as “cases,” that represent the key aspects of the model.

Case #1: A man in his twenties had the Kundalini awakened. His teacher suggested that he could enhance this experience with the drug ayahuasca. Immediately after taking the ayahuasca, and for the next year until he met the author, this person suffered extreme Kundalini imbalances. These symptoms included suffering from intense nightmares, night terrors, insomnia, severe nausea, energetic depletion (he hadn't previously been depleted), spaciness, ungroundedness, severe emotional and intuitive imbalances, extreme emotional and psychic sensitivity, and what looked from the outside like extremely depleted ojas (vital life force energy). When the author met him and Graced him with Shaktipat, a rebalancing of the system occurred immediately. The energy began to flow up the sushumna, or central channel, and over the next year the person slowly regained his energy. His night terrors, insomnia, spaciness, and confusion began to recede, and over a year's period of time from receiving Shaktipat, his system came into balance. Supportive therapies included herbs to build ojas, an ojas-building diet and lifestyle with emphasis on minimizing sexual activity, and a homeopathic remedy. The person has now returned to his role as a spiritual teacher full-time and has significantly recovered from the effects of having taken the ayahuasca. (pages 82-83)

The theory of working with unbalanced Kundalini energy is based on the esoteric physiology that has been previously described. There are three granthis, or knots. When the Kundalini is awakened, all three are opened simultaneously, yet these three knots do act as regulators of the flow of the Kundalini. At the base of the spine is the Muladhara granthi. In the author's theory, the disregulation of the flow of Kundalini happens at the Muladhara granthi. In the physiology of the Kundalini, what is known as the kanda region, which is just below the Muladhara, or first, chakra, is where the three basic nadis, the ida, pingala and sushumna, meet and begin at the yukta triveni, just before the entrance to the Muladhara chakra. It is in this region where the disregulation is thought to occur. What happens theoretically is that there is a blockage or disregulation that occurs as the Shakti Kundalini, instead of going straight up through the middle pillar of the sushumna, is diverted through all the 72,000 nadis and chakras with their associated endocrine and nervous system components, imbalancing a variety of vrittis and physiological systems. This blockage or disregulation creates both an imbalanced and, in some cases, irregular flow primarily in the ida and pingala. As it begins to flow in the different directions it tends to significantly affect the adrenals, the base chakra, and the adrenal and kidney energies. An overstimulation of the adrenals, or weakening of the adrenals, tends to weaken the astral field. This opens people up to all sorts of psychic phenomena, creating vata imbalances, nightmares, insomnia, and astral holes. This is made much worse by the use of drugs, which also disrupt the astral field. The person in case #1 who had taken the ayahuasca and immediately began to have these kind of problems, such as vata imbalance, fears, nightmares, insomnia, extreme psychic sensitivity, and emotional and yin exhaustion is an example of this situation. It is very typical, as the energy is imbalancing and stressing the adrenals, that many people with a Kundalini imbalance have a depletion in ojas. This ojas energy is essential for holding the energy of the Kundalini. This is why Yoga practices, a proper diet, and the action of kedusha (holiness) are important for building the energies for building up the ojas as a preparation for awakening and sustaining Kundalini energy. (pages 85-86)

Healing Kundalini Imbalance
The prime treatment for Kundalini imbalance from the author's experience is receiving Shaktipat from a Kundalini master (one who is Liberated and who has been initiated in a lineage). In the process of giving transmission of Shaktipat, the astral field of the person in case #1, which had been mainly disrupted and torn by drugs, and was weakened, contracted, and not able the handle the energy as it was brought into the adrenals and kidneys, begins to open to healing and the holes in the field are activated toward healing. (p. 87)

Case #2 is an example where the person had such an egoistic lust for the Divine that he got impatient and began forcing Kundalini with advanced Yogic techniques. This karmic reactivation causes the congestion at the first granthi, which then converts the energy into stressing the adrenals and upsetting the flow of the kidney energies. One of the teachings, therefore, that Gabriel believes prevents people from falling into this egoistic imbalance is explaining the Divine Strategy of Grace and how one must surrender to the unfolding of one's own Kundalini energy. This does require patience, peace, and surrender rather than forcing with excessive Yogic techniques, drugs, or any other excessive techniques. The Kundalini is a feminine energy and by respecting the unfolding of the feminine energy rather than activating the karmas of past lives, of pushing, and of lust, we are able to avoid blocking or causing disregulation. This form of meditation is spontaneous and free-flowing, rather than the masculine concept of forcing and fitting into a form and a technique. This is the mystery of Kundalini – surrendering to the Kundalini and to the Grace that is being given rather than attempting to control the situation. Controlling or forcing comes from an egoistic state of past vasanas of how to deal with spiritual life. They can result in imbalance. (p. 89)

The third part of the treatment is building up the ojas, which is described in Chapter 25. Emphasizing once again that drug usage depletes the ojas and disrupts the astral field, we have the example we have seen in case #1. Asana practice is specifically designed to integrate the Kundalini energies, the chakra systems, the granthis, the nadis, and the koshas (discussed in the next chapter). These definitely help to rebalance the Kundalini energy when done in moderation. (p. 90)


ON THE FRONT LINES: AN INTERVIEW WITH MICHAEL MCDONALD-SMITH


ALLAN HUNT BADINER /



ALLAN HUNT BADINER/ You have many young people attending your meditation retreats. Do you find yourself having to address the issue of psychedelic use?

MICHAEL MCDONALD-SMITH / Yes. The drug issue is right on the front lines. As a meditation teacher, it takes a lot of reflection to present something that’s helpful and relevant in the face of how many choices students have around drugs. From my experience, no matter what kind of deep opening one might have on a drug, it isn’t going to develop one’s ability to have those experiences naturally. Other people might say that drugs are a doorway, but I don’t see it develop anything. It doesn’t develop equanimity, it doesn’t develop investigation, it doesn’t develop any of the factors of enlightenment.

BADINER / What do you see drugs doing?

MCDONALD-SMITH / Drugs take a considerable toll on the body and the mind. They bring all this energy into the system so that it catapults you into a different state of consciousness at the same time that it taxes your body, mind, and heart. You get a sort of beatific view, but actually you’re further down the mountain.

BADINER / Do you think that applies across the board to all psychedelic experiences? Some people use MDMA, or Ecstasy, in conjunction with their meditation, such as metta meditation, and claim the openings that they get from this material translates into real change in their daily lives. Are they deluded?

MCDONALD-SMITH / The initial experience with the drug might help one to experience intention to develop loving-kindness, but the ability to access that on a regular basis takes practice. A drug can’t help you create or develop your ability to practice loving-kindness.

BADINER / So the drug can't get you there, but can it show you that there's somewhere to go?

MCDONALD-SMITH / No. I don't think that a drug experience from five years ago, or three hours ago, is going to make meta accessible for me. It's the willingness to put in the time through oridinary conciousness and develop your ability to practice deeply that allows you to access the mind of loving-kindness when you're in traffic, or at the grocery store, or talking to your kids. To depend on a drug to develop that quality is antithetical to what we would call the development of mind. So while drugs may spark an interest in those states of mind, one always has to assess the toll it takes on the body and the mind.

BADINER / What has been your experience on retreat with people who use?

MCDONALD-SMITH / I've had people who have come to retreats who've done a lot of drugs, and it seems like they don't have the energy to go deep. They've blown it off with drugs. You pay a price for any drug experience. There's no price that your body or mind has to pay to be in retreat and deepen those states naturally.

BADINER / So you feel that it's not only that drugs don't help one along the path, they are actually a hindrance?

MCDONALD-SMITH / On a really deep level of letting go, drugs get in the way. This is especially true for those who are heavily armored.

BADINER / What I hear you saying is the opposite from what some conservative Buddhists might say; that if you're heavily armored and you desperately need an opening, well then, and only then, maybe it would be OK to use a psychedelic. But what you are saying is to avoid drugs particularly then, because they will increase your already strong resistance to doing the hard work.

MCDONALD-SMITH / Right. I’m talking about a deep level of attachment in the mind, where if one is needing to repeat an experience, it is reinforcing that attachment. When a person feels that they need drugs to deepen in their spiritual journey they’re just reinforcing the attachment to those particular states of consciousness.

BAOINER / How is that different from attachment to the state that one reaches in meditation?

MCDONALD-SMITH / In a retreat you're going through sleepiness, you’re going through restlessness, you’re not aiming for a certain state. At least in vipassana practice, which is what I teach, it's not state-oriented. The idea is that freedom isn’t based on any experience, so you’re developing an awareness that isn’t imprisoned by being attached to certain experiences. When you take a drug you're definitely attached to an experience, or you wouldn’t be taking the drug.

BADINER / Have you had personal experience with psychedelics?

MCDONALD-SMITH / I can very happily say that I've had some very deep experiences, even spiritual experiences on drugs.

BADINER / But you don’t recommend them?

MCDONALD-SMITH / I don't. While I did have some very powerful experiences on drugs. I’ve had much deeper and more powerful experiences in meditation. I wasn’t looking for any particular experience when I took the drugs, I took them because my friends thought it would be great if I finally dropped acid or if I finally tried the marijuana brownie. But when you put in the work of going into retreat, you're going to open up and it doesn't take such a toll, and it’s much more dependable in the long run. i recommend doing the work.

BADINER/ So you didn't get attached?

MCDONALD-SMITH/ No. I feel that drugs promote attachment to experience. In terms of my idea of wehat liberation is, they make that deeper letting go of experience itself harder. I really saw this in my own work.

BADINER/ I wonder if you could say more about the distinction between the psychedelic high and the meditation high?

MCDONALD-SMITH/ Meditation strengthens your ability to cope with the ups and downs of life so that you're coping with being depressed, you're coping with being tired, and you're developing an equanimity and an awareness that helps you cope with the downs as well as the ups. In taking the meditative path, you will come out stronger and win in all ways. You learn that you can feel "high" and how to access that when you create the right conditions. Then you can cope with the downs without needing drugs. But what you actually get from drug experience is the desire to take the drugs again. The basic urge is to be free; but true freedom is awareness that isn't tied to experience. The underlying urge is healthy. I really try to support that urge. But drugs don't make it easier in the long karmic trip we are on.

BADINER/ Why do you think so many people feel like psychedelics help?

MCDONALD-SMITH/ There are two aspects to our spiritual journey: one is transformation, the other is transcendence. It can feel like drugs are helping. But each breath that we're really aware of, day by day, in ordinary life, each step we take with awareness will in some ways feel very ordinary initially, but we are cultivating true freedom. You can develop great awareness without drugs. We have twenty-four hours in the day, and there are a lot of moments while we're washing the dishes, while we're driving the car, that we can practice being aware. When we're on retreat we intensify the practice, while we're watching the breath, while we're watching our steps. And we learn through this sometimes incredibly tedious repetition how to have an awareness that's free of any one experience. Any attempts to escape that, or avoid putting in that time just sets you back. In the long run the very attempt to escape itself makes it harder to escape. (pages 195-199)


Edited by s240779 (07/01/15 10:55 PM)


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OfflineDetectiveLefty
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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: s240779] * 2
    #19337397 - 12/28/13 02:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"The use of drugs depletes the [new-age bullshit] and the [more new-age bullshit]. This is because [pseudoscience]. Buy my book and take my course."

Got to say I respect McDonald-Smith's perspective a lot more. Drugs can be helpful, but they're not enough by themselves.


--------------------
I swear on a stack of Bibles that everything I said in the above post is the 100% literal Truth.


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: DetectiveLefty]
    #19337419 - 12/28/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DetectiveLefty said:
"The use of drugs depletes the [new-age bullshit] and the [more new-age bullshit]. This is because [pseudoscience]. Buy my book and take my course."

Got to say I respect McDonald-Smith's perspective a lot more. Drugs can be helpful, but they're not enough by themselves.



I kinda like this thought too.

Wish it was written with less words that i don't understand in it...


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Offlinerikuni

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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: Psilosopherr] * 3
    #19337438 - 12/28/13 03:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Bunch a fucking bullshit:fasted:

Some goofy wanna be "new age" gurus trying to force people into their beliefs. They should better Stfu and dont spread this kinda bullshit:aweyeah:

meditation is good but lsd is bad, yea right you morons:dawerp:


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OfflineFunkyBuddha
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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: rikuni] * 1
    #19337448 - 12/28/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"Damages the branches (axons) of the serotonin neurons" :lol:

:goodluckwiththat:


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Offlineflipcode
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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: s240779] * 1
    #19337466 - 12/28/13 03:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Pretty good read and I'd have to say that I agree with most of it. I'm just a bit scared that insightful minds are on the anti-drug side now. I prefer the "Reefer Madness" style propaganda--It's much easier to discredit.

To summarize in an analogy (mostly to see if I understood the message; my teachers tell me I give really good anal-
ogies)

If spiritual enlightenment was portrayed as a really hard video game--it's more rewarding to truly master the techniques than it is to simply toss in cheat-codes. Makes perfect sense, unfortunately I'm really bad at some games (cough, cough) and using the cheat codes is the only thing that keeps me interested in the game at all.

Nice read :thumbup:


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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: flipcode]
    #19337489 - 12/28/13 03:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

flipcode said:
Nice read :thumbup:




Glad you appreciate my efforts.

I'll remind people that I don't subscribe to the information I posted; I'm just throwing it out there. I read it a while ago and I remember that his medical talk about psychedelics causing damage to the neurotransmitters was followed up with a statement/citation for MDMA and amphetamines only, if I remember correctly.


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: flipcode]
    #19337509 - 12/28/13 03:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

flipcode said:
Pretty good read and I'd have to say that I agree with most of it. I'm just a bit scared that insightful minds are on the anti-drug side now. I prefer the "Reefer Madness" style propaganda--It's much easier to discredit.

To summarize in an analogy (mostly to see if I understood the message; my teachers tell me I give really good anal-
ogies)

If spiritual enlightenment was portrayed as a really hard video game--it's more rewarding to truly master the techniques than it is to simply toss in cheat-codes. Makes perfect sense, unfortunately I'm really bad at some games (cough, cough) and using the cheat codes is the only thing that keeps me interested in the game at all.

Nice read :thumbup:



I agree with most of what you said.

Good to see a NIN fan on here. I missed the tour due to poor planning :sad: I'm still kicking myself, hard, in the crotch for not going.


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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: Psilosopherr] * 1
    #19337534 - 12/28/13 03:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Gonna have to say bullshit aswell. It's pretty fucking apparent.


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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: Aopocetx]
    #19337546 - 12/28/13 03:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Like I get the idea of what they're saying, that enlightenment is more fulfilling when worked for rather than attained through psychedelics, which is debatable on its own. But why fill it with bullshit pseudoscience? :shrug:


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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: FunkyBuddha]
    #19337583 - 12/28/13 03:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

FunkyBuddha said:
Like I get the idea of what they're saying, that enlightenment is more fulfilling when worked for rather than attained through psychedelics, which is debatable on its own. But why fill it with bullshit pseudoscience? :shrug:




Yeah exactly, I understand that part, but who says you can't get both? The enlightenment you get from drugs is different from the real thing - you can achieve both. Why does one have to mean you can't attain the other?


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---------> Acacia confusa trip report <--------

############ DPT HCL trip report with Q&A ###########

Follow my psychedelic instagram @psychedelicpage


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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: Aopocetx]
    #19337643 - 12/28/13 04:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly. I see it as looking at the answers in a maths textbook. You can still do the problem, you just know what you're working towards. The temporary state of enlightenment and serenity provided by psychedelics allows us to become our own teachers and gurus, allowing us to instruct ourselves on the changes we need to make to achieve this state permanently.


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: FunkyBuddha]
    #19337661 - 12/28/13 04:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

FunkyBuddha said:
Like I get the idea of what they're saying, that enlightenment is more fulfilling when worked for rather than attained through psychedelics, which is debatable on its own. But why fill it with bullshit pseudoscience? :shrug:



that is well said


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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: FunkyBuddha]
    #19337664 - 12/28/13 04:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

chakra problems sounds not unlikely to happen with excessive use of psychedelics

I had to work a bit with my energy, it was quite a bit off balance after using psychedelics

a meditation I like is
focus on a point in front of you, focus on a point in your body
then back and forth quickly
notice anything happening


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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: lessismore]
    #19337689 - 12/28/13 04:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mio said:
chakra problems sounds not unlikely to happen with excessive use of psychedelics

I had to work a bit with my energy, it was quite a bit off balance after using psychedelics

a meditation I like is
focus on a point in front of you, focus on a point in your body
then back and forth quickly
notice anything happening



hmm, I'm trying to do what you're explaining here. Could you try wording it a little differently?

by back and forth quickly do you mean altering which point you're focusing on between the two? I thought you were trying to focus on them at the same time at first.


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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: DetectiveLefty]
    #19337803 - 12/28/13 05:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DetectiveLefty said:
"The use of drugs depletes the [new-age bullshit] and the [more new-age bullshit]. This is because [pseudoscience]. Buy my book and take my course."




I've found that you can usually get the most important information for free. Joining a group/lodge/order/assram/whatever is also typically not a good idea because any time a person develops influence over other people it nearly always turns into a power trip. The greatest mystics/magicians either left the organizations they started out in or were solitary from the beginning and maybe had one good teacher (sometimes that teacher was not on the physical plane). The shitty ones all started a business based on convincing other people to continually give them money in the form of dues or selling lessons.


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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: s240779]
    #19337996 - 12/28/13 05:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I added definitions for the ayurvedic and Hebrew words (obtained from the glossary in the back of the book).


Edited by s240779 (12/28/13 05:58 PM)


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Offlinekapowsin
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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: s240779]
    #19338311 - 12/28/13 07:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know about the new age jargon in the introduction, but most of the thoughts outlined in the last section (the interview), I generally agree with. But I certainly wouldn't take a class from this fellow.


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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: kapowsin]
    #19339001 - 12/28/13 09:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm guessing Mr Guru forgot it states in Patanjali 's yoga sutra that certain herbs can be used to achieve higher states. Or perhaps he doesn't believe in the traditional texts of his field.

I certainly believe it is not either/or, but both/and, when it comes to meditation and psychedelics, but that's only my opinion.


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OfflineAgentchewy
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Re: 'New age' criticism of psychedelic drugs / What do you think of this? [Re: xoanon]
    #19339105 - 12/28/13 09:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I would like to research his citations on the evidence that psychedelics in particular are detrimental on serotonin. Some of the concepts of the toll it takes on your mind needs to be fully explained to me before I consider it.


I could have sworn I just read up on a clinical study showing psychedelics can actually stimulate neurogenesis.


I do agree with him in some instances though.



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