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InvisibleThe Lightning
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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: maynardjameskeenan]
    #19473751 - 01/25/14 07:50 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

I'm not sure. Camera knowledge is not one of my current talents.


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InvisibleThe Lightning
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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: The Lightning]
    #19478142 - 01/26/14 06:51 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)



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InvisibleThe Lightning
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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: The Lightning]
    #19500152 - 01/31/14 07:33 AM (10 years, 4 hours ago)

So, we know to look at a few things in this chemical:

















We see Oxygen, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Carbon, and Phosphorus: O, H, N, C, P.



















We see rings (a Benzene Ring connected to a Pyrrole Ring - which form an Indole Ring):





















We are getting a concept of looking for single, double, and triple bonds based on the amount of lines drawn:
















Next, do we see any popular groups? Let's look at this chemical again, together:













A methyl group. Could it be CH3, a methyl radical?
















This methyl group seems to be connected to other atoms to form another, larger group:
















Could it be similar to Methylamine? (Seen below)


















Next, do we see a Phosphate Group below?















I need a chemist to stir the thread. C'mon. Interject.





Edited by The Lightning (01/31/14 08:03 AM)


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OfflineMachineElf1.618
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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: The Lightning]
    #19501902 - 01/31/14 03:37 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Nice try lightning. EVerything looks good ecept for the methyl amine. I don't quite remember but I think its incorrect to call the group methylamine because its a positive charged amino. I think it should be called methylammonium I might be wrong though. THe rest is right though you have an indole ring with a phosphate attached to it. The negative phosphate and positive ammonium make a zwitterion which stabilizes the charges on the molecule.


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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: MachineElf1.618]
    #19502482 - 01/31/14 05:53 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Methylammonium.

For some reason, it bothers me that HCl salts of amines are called ____amine HCl. They are ammonium chlorides. Methylamine HCl should be called methylammonium chloride. It's actually an acceptable name, but nobody uses it.

I don't know how well that works if the chemical name is a common name, like methamphetamine. Methylamphetammonium chloride is kinda clunky.


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InvisibleMr. Bojangles
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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: koods]
    #19503017 - 01/31/14 07:38 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

maynardjameskeenan said:
It still amazes me how they are able to take pictures of atom and molecules.
Wouldn't your 'camera lens' need to be close to the same size to capture a picture like that?




Taking these kind of pictures has more to do with modern circuitry than actual optics.  Without getting too technical with it, you take an EXTREMELY fine tipped point (we're talking ideally 1 atom in diameter) and move it over a material.  One method uses quantum tunneling of electrons through the tip to create a current that moves up through the microscope and induces a reading.  In essence what we're seeing is a voltage map rather than an actual picture.  Another method actually touches the tip to the surface and the process is metaphorically like reading braille (these fuckers break all the time).  The surface needs to be conducting so if it isn't a metal it needs to be [evenly] sprayed with a metal before it can have its "picture" taken. 

I found a video that probably explains the principle a little better than I can:


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Edited by Mr. Bojangles (01/31/14 07:48 PM)


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InvisibleThe Lightning
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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: koods]
    #19506500 - 02/01/14 02:49 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mtlmike90 said:
Nice try lightning. Everything looks good ecept for the methyl amine.





Quote:

mtlmike90 said:
The negative phosphate and positive ammonium make a zwitterion which stabilizes the charges on the molecule.






Thank you for that explanation. That's a concept I still need more clarity on.

Is any chemical with one positive (+) and one negative (-) atom (ion) always going to be "stabilized" or neutral? Are there exceptions?



Quote:

koods said:
Methylammonium.






I appreciate your feedback.




Below: Methylammonium







Educational note (intended to help someone who's also studying this thread):









Key words: Ion, Anion, Cation
























More: Zwitterion, Dipole

























Edited by The Lightning (02/01/14 03:53 PM)


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: The Lightning]
    #19507019 - 02/01/14 04:37 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

:cheers::popcorn::takingnotes:


--------------------
~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: Joust] * 1
    #19507223 - 02/01/14 05:17 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I think a zwitterion just refers to a a molecule with a a positive and negative charge who's net charge is neutral.


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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: MachineElf1.618]
    #19507225 - 02/01/14 05:17 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

So who's posting the next mushroom/chemical?


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InvisibleThe Lightning
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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: MachineElf1.618]
    #19507360 - 02/01/14 05:52 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

The person who get's the guess right.


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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: maynardjameskeenan]
    #19507386 - 02/01/14 05:59 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

maynardjameskeenan said:
It still amazes me how they are able to take pictures of atom and molecules.
Wouldn't your 'camera lens' need to be close to the same size to capture a picture like that?




Thats because they don't use lenses.


As for the last one I'm surprised no one has answered it yet its not that hard. I'll just wait till someone does.


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InvisibleMr. Bojangles
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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: The Lightning]
    #19507547 - 02/01/14 06:41 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Lightning said:
The person who get's the guess right.




P. baeocystis and the chemical is baeocystin.  I know the chemical is right but I'm guessing on the mushroom.


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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: MachineElf1.618]
    #19507567 - 02/01/14 06:47 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Methyammonium is the ionized form of the freebase methylamine. It has accepted a proton from the acid, which is why there is a positive charge.


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InvisibleThe Lightning
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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: Mr. Bojangles]
    #19507581 - 02/01/14 06:49 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Bojangles said:


P. baeocystis and the chemical is baeocystin.  I know the chemical is right but I'm guessing on the mushroom.






The mushroom is correct and the chemical is correct. Please add a brief but coherent explanation of the skeletal drawing too - for the win!


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InvisibleThe Lightning
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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: koods]
    #19507614 - 02/01/14 06:57 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Methyammonium is the ionized form of the freebase methylamine. It has accepted a proton from the acid, which is why there is a positive charge.








More: Protons, Neutrons, and Electrons


















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InvisibleMr. Bojangles
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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: The Lightning]
    #19507681 - 02/01/14 07:08 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Lightning said:
Quote:

Mr. Bojangles said:

P. baeocystis and the chemical is baeocystin.  I know the chemical is right but I'm guessing on the mushroom.




The mushroom is correct and the chemical is correct. Please add a brief but coherent explanation of the skeletal drawing too - for the win!




Alright so we got baeocystin:

The base ring structure is an indole moeity, which is essentially a fused benzene and pyrrole ring:

At the 4 position on the indole ring there is a hydrogen phosphate group (sorry, can't find organic stick figure of this one):

And finally on the 3 position of the indole we have an ethylene bridge (2 methylenes) that connects to a methylammonium group.  Baeocystin is essentially a psilocybin molecule with an extra hydrogen and minus a methyl group; instead of having a dimethylamine derivative attached to the ethylene bridge (as in psilocybin), baeocystin has a methylamine derivative (the methylammonium group).


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InvisibleThe Lightning
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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: Mr. Bojangles]
    #19507760 - 02/01/14 07:23 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I'm taking notes. Let's see what you have up next!


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InvisibleMr. Bojangles
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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: The Lightning]
    #19507809 - 02/01/14 07:34 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

We have this guy:

And he's found in quite a few mushroom genera but this is probably one of the more well known:


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Re: Guess That Fungi/Mushroom Chemical!! [Re: Mr. Bojangles]
    #19508131 - 02/01/14 09:03 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Chemical is muscarine and mushroom is Clitocybe dealbata. Muscarine is similar to muscimol and found in many genuses.


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