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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deff]
#19334386 - 12/27/13 08:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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deff said:
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Deviate said: Ok last night I went through a major transformation. I spent six hours curled up my bed with my ego self desperately clinging refusing to be let go and trying to keep control over me, kicking and screaming and feeling terrified. It lasted for 6-8 hours and I tried praying, I tried letting, i tried non resitance, i tried meditation, nothing would release the anxiety (although the things I tried did help a bit). anyway my heart was beating so hard and for so long that I began having chest pains and I thought what if I die from this? Wouldnt that be hilarious? What would my family say? "well he came catholic, started praying a lot and within a couple of years he was dead" lol. Anyway after 8 hours had passed, I finally let go of my small ego self and boom I realized who I was. Then I was supremely happy. I saw through the veil of duality. I saw that reality was non dual and everything was within me and it was all a remarkably joyful expression of what is, what always has been and always will be and nothing has ever really changed. Thats why in the Book of Revelation St. John calls God "He who is and was and will be" and worthy is the lamb. Anyway, I understood that this knowledge was self-realization.
Now what I dont get is, when I woke up the next morning, I had an ego again. Not a big one like before. I had shifted into a totally new state of being now. Its wonderful. I am so present. I see eternity in each moment and I know that I am one with it. And yet, something is still off. I am not totally liiberated or enlightened. There is still this ego coming back and trying to retake control over me. Why is this happening? How can the ego come back after Ive seen its not real? Do I need to keep doing my spiritual practices? Do I need to keep inquiring who am I?
sounds like a great experience, and one which seems to indicate that what you're doing that way is working 
It was amazing experience. I have never been so happy. I am still aware of myself as the infinite only my ego is coming back now and trying to reassert itself and I am so tired of the fight against it. That is the one thing that is bothering me right now. I had hoped that once I saw throiugh duality, that would be it. Everything would just proceed automatically from there and I would not need to do any further counter egoic work.
Unfortunately the ego is an incredibly cunning beast. There is yet life in it and it appears that my battle is not yet won.
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
#19334433 - 12/27/13 08:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: I spent six hours curled up my bed with my ego self desperately clinging refusing to be let go and trying to keep control over me, kicking and screaming and feeling terrified. It lasted for 6-8 hours and I tried praying, I tried letting, i tried non resitance, i tried meditation, nothing would release the anxiety (although the things I tried did help a bit). anyway my heart was beating so hard and for so long that I began having chest pains and I thought what if I die from this? Wouldnt that be hilarious? What would my family say? "well he came catholic, started praying a lot and within a couple of years he was dead" lol. Anyway after 8 hours had passed, I finally let go of my small ego self and boom I realized who I was. Then I was supremely happy.
Sounds like you're working yourself into hysteria until you melt down and feel better.... The real question is, imo, how can you just feel better without such a ritual? You really don't want to keep doing this to yourself imho.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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mt cleverest
clevendafodil

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 2,348
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
#19335097 - 12/28/13 12:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: Ok last night I went through a major transformation. I spent six hours curled up my bed with my ego self desperately clinging refusing to be let go and trying to keep control over me, kicking and screaming and feeling terrified. It lasted for 6-8 hours and I tried praying, I tried letting, i tried non resitance, i tried meditation, nothing would release the anxiety (although the things I tried did help a bit).
can you clarify your experience a little bit? what were you doing to make your ego feel terrified?
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
#19335525 - 12/28/13 04:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: Ok last night I went through a major transformation. I spent six hours curled up my bed with my ego self desperately clinging refusing to be let go and trying to keep control over me, kicking and screaming and feeling terrified. It lasted for 6-8 hours and I tried praying, I tried letting, i tried non resitance, i tried meditation, nothing would release the anxiety (although the things I tried did help a bit). anyway my heart was beating so hard and for so long that I began having chest pains and I thought what if I die from this? Wouldnt that be hilarious? What would my family say? "well he came catholic, started praying a lot and within a couple of years he was dead" lol. Anyway after 8 hours had passed, I finally let go of my small ego self and boom I realized who I was. Then I was supremely happy. I saw through the veil of duality. I saw that reality was non dual and everything was within me and it was all a remarkably joyful expression of what is, what always has been and always will be and nothing has ever really changed. Thats why in the Book of Revelation St. John calls God "He who is and was and will be" and worthy is the lamb. Anyway, I understood that this knowledge was self-realization.
Now what I dont get is, when I woke up the next morning, I had an ego again. Not a big one like before. I had shifted into a totally new state of being now. Its wonderful. I am so present. I see eternity in each moment and I know that I am one with it. And yet, something is still off. I am not totally liiberated or enlightened. There is still this ego coming back and trying to retake control over me. Why is this happening? How can the ego come back after Ive seen its not real? Do I need to keep doing my spiritual practices? Do I need to keep inquiring who am I?
Ramana said the thought 'who am i?' is like a wooden stick tending a fire that eventually gets consumed by the fire itself, so as long as you can ask the question then one should ask the question, when it's done its work you're left silent as the Self
Ultimately the Self Is, there is no reaching it, and you are that now, totally, beyond all attainment, hence the question 'who am i?', yet the vasanas (tendencies/habits/identifications) are ancient and it can take lifetimes of sadhana to destroy them, so you can see there's two ways of looking at it, probably more, but these are the two realistic ones i find, yet only one is really true as it's absolute
Destroying the ego-thoughts isn't for everyone, like you've seen in this forum many egos recommend otherwise (funny that!) but obviously you're up for it & want nothing less, and it's your life you're entitled to decide what what you want for yourself, like you i'm not interested in being interesting to other people, not interested in 'success' or whatever other benefits having an ego supposedly entails, i'm only concerned with being true to myself and what that entails
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Edited by Chronic7 (12/28/13 04:30 AM)
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Chronic7]
#19335630 - 12/28/13 05:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The Chronic said: Destroying the ego-thoughts isn't for everyone, like you've seen in this forum many people recommend otherwise, but obviously you're up for it & want nothing less, and it's your life you're entitled to decide what what you want for yourself, like you i'm not interested in being interesting to other people, not interested in 'success' or whatever other benefits having an ego supposedly entails, i'm only concerned with being true to myself
This is imho. You're confusing having an ego (a mind) with egotism, like that of a hot shot lawyer. They're not at all the same thing. You need a healthy mind, not only to survive, but to enjoy your life here on earth.
By all means, when you've finished your responsibilities for the day, get high if your belief system permits, meditate, and detach yourself from your mind. Experience some sense of calmness in the ocean of existence, where everything can be perceived as energy pouring into energy.
A sick, broken mind at the reigns of your existence is an endlessly hellish experience without a doubt. As the saying goes, the mind is a perfect servant and a terrible master. But even meditation is no magical cure all, it's just giving a warped mind a well needed break from itself, where one can hopefully gain some perspective, and that's perspective on what thought patterns are actually causing one so much grief (and this includes thinking about spirituality when you're neglecting other aspects of life you might feel guilty about, like money you haven't paid back or whatever).
Ultimately, you're going to have to nourish your mind, restructure the thought patterns, find a way you can use it and live with it, so that all aspects of self can coexist without it crippling you, trampling over the rest of your being like an enraged bull.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19335662 - 12/28/13 05:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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nice
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19335871 - 12/28/13 07:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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CosmicJoke said:
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The Chronic said: Destroying the ego-thoughts isn't for everyone, like you've seen in this forum many people recommend otherwise, but obviously you're up for it & want nothing less, and it's your life you're entitled to decide what what you want for yourself, like you i'm not interested in being interesting to other people, not interested in 'success' or whatever other benefits having an ego supposedly entails, i'm only concerned with being true to myself
This is imho. You're confusing having an ego (a mind) with egotism, like that of a hot shot lawyer. They're not at all the same thing. You need a healthy mind, not only to survive, but to enjoy your life here on earth.
By all means, when you've finished your responsibilities for the day, get high if your belief system permits, meditate, and detach yourself from your mind. Experience some sense of calmness in the ocean of existence, where everything can be perceived as energy pouring into energy.
A sick, broken mind at the reigns of your existence is an endlessly hellish experience without a doubt. As the saying goes, the mind is a perfect servant and a terrible master. But even meditation is no magical cure all, it's just giving a warped mind a well needed break from itself, where one can hopefully gain some perspective, and that's perspective on what thought patterns are actually causing one so much grief (and this includes thinking about spirituality when you're neglecting other aspects of life you might feel guilty about, like money you haven't paid back or whatever).
Ultimately, you're going to have to nourish your mind, restructure the thought patterns, find a way you can use it and live with it, so that all aspects of self can coexist without it crippling you, trampling over the rest of your being like an enraged bull.
Having an ego is egotism, of course it can be healthy or unhealthy,I agree with most of what you say but if we're talking about ego or ego-loss there are extremes & there is also plenty of middle ground, if i want to go to either extreme and become a full on egotisitical narcissistic maniac or go the other way & work at removing the ego as much as possible, for my own reasons whatever they be in either case, i have the right to do so
Its noble of you to point out the extremes in both cases might not be healthy as that's your honest opinion, but i did clearly state that such an extreme approach to the ego is not for everyone
What's is saying its one way or the other when there's 7 billion people on this planet each at their own level of understanding the universe
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Edited by Chronic7 (12/28/13 07:39 AM)
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Chronic7]
#19336036 - 12/28/13 08:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The Chronic said:
Having an ego is egotism, of course it can be healthy or unhealthy,I agree with most of what you say but if we're talking about ego or ego-loss there are extremes & there is also plenty of middle ground, if i want to go to either extreme and become a full on egotisitical narcissistic maniac or go the other way & work at removing the ego as much as possible, for my own reasons whatever they be in either case, i have the right to do so
Its noble of you to point out the extremes in both cases might not be healthy as that's your honest opinion, but i did clearly state that such an extreme approach to the ego is not for everyone
What's is saying its one way or the other when there's 7 billion people on this planet each at their own level of understanding the universe
I disagree, having an ego is not egotism (which is a drive to maintain and enhance favorable views of oneself, and generally features an inflated opinion of one's personal features and importance — intellectual, physical, social and other. ) One can be neurotic and self conscious, the opposite end of the narcissist spectrum, and have equally as fractured personality.
You seem to be thinking that I'm against the idea of ego transcendence, and I'm not.... But the goal of ego transcendence it is to become a whole person, not to get rid of a part of yourself that's causing you pain, but to experience it from a holistic vantage point to make sense of what's wrong with it and transform it. That same mind that is causing you pain is also the source of all your creativity, humor, craftsmanship, etc. You can't get rid of your ego, unless you want to spend the rest of your life OMing on acid, but you can be more than your ego, you can be your whole 'Self'.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19336076 - 12/28/13 08:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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CosmicJoke said:
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The Chronic said:
Having an ego is egotism, of course it can be healthy or unhealthy,I agree with most of what you say but if we're talking about ego or ego-loss there are extremes & there is also plenty of middle ground, if i want to go to either extreme and become a full on egotisitical narcissistic maniac or go the other way & work at removing the ego as much as possible, for my own reasons whatever they be in either case, i have the right to do so
Its noble of you to point out the extremes in both cases might not be healthy as that's your honest opinion, but i did clearly state that such an extreme approach to the ego is not for everyone
What's is saying its one way or the other when there's 7 billion people on this planet each at their own level of understanding the universe
I disagree, having an ego is not egotism (which is a drive to maintain and enhance favorable views of oneself, and generally features an inflated opinion of one's personal features and importance — intellectual, physical, social and other. ) One can be neurotic and self conscious, the opposite end of the narcissist spectrum, and have equally as fractured personality.
When you define it like that i agree, although i think the term egotism can apply to both ends of the spectrum, its not just arrogance that's egotism but shyness aswell, maybe my english is off though
I can also see how any vestige of an ego, even the sense 'I Am', could be considered a form of egotism, albeit godly, maybe i'm defining it differently though 
Quote:
You seem to be thinking that I'm against the idea of ego transcendence, and I'm not....
I could tell from your previous post you're not against it, i'm not sure where i gave the impression that i thought you were against it...
Quote:
But the goal of ego transcendence it is to become a whole person, not to get rid of a part of yourself that's causing you pain, but to experience it from a holistic vantage point to make sense of what's wrong with it and transform it. That same mind that is causing you pain is also the source of all your creativity, humor, craftsmanship, etc. You can't get rid of your ego, unless you want to spend the rest of your life OMing on acid, but you can be more than your ego, you can be your whole 'Self'
That's great, good way of putting it, i actually don't like using the term ego but some people resonate with that way of talking about things
I feel that the best way (for myself anyway) is to just be myself and to leave the definition of that as open as possible, some people call what limits this sense of definition an ego, and if so i would agree that one can function fine without it, i find the bodymind has inbuilt senses/definitions that are necessary for it to function, but our actual sense of self which is ultimately not of the body, can remain without definition, and if anything i function better without it, life is clearer, sharper, im faster to instinctively react rather than deliberate, i no longer de-liberate myself
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Chronic7]
#19336276 - 12/28/13 09:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Here's a corny metaphor I came up with, not to be taken too literally.
The totality of the self is like a phenomenal orchestra playing the 5th, but a fractured ego is like a toddler having a tantrum slamming on the keys of a piano and drowning out the music. Meditating is like removing the child from the theatre so that you can hear the beautiful music again and get inspired, but the only way you're going to experience anything approximating enduring tranquility is to teach the child how to play.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19336370 - 12/28/13 10:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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What to you would be analogous to 'teaching the child how to play'?
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19336869 - 12/28/13 12:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said:
Quote:
The Chronic said:
Having an ego is egotism, of course it can be healthy or unhealthy,I agree with most of what you say but if we're talking about ego or ego-loss there are extremes & there is also plenty of middle ground, if i want to go to either extreme and become a full on egotisitical narcissistic maniac or go the other way & work at removing the ego as much as possible, for my own reasons whatever they be in either case, i have the right to do so
Its noble of you to point out the extremes in both cases might not be healthy as that's your honest opinion, but i did clearly state that such an extreme approach to the ego is not for everyone
What's is saying its one way or the other when there's 7 billion people on this planet each at their own level of understanding the universe
I disagree, having an ego is not egotism (which is a drive to maintain and enhance favorable views of oneself, and generally features an inflated opinion of one's personal features and importance — intellectual, physical, social and other. ) One can be neurotic and self conscious, the opposite end of the narcissist spectrum, and have equally as fractured personality.
You seem to be thinking that I'm against the idea of ego transcendence, and I'm not.... But the goal of ego transcendence it is to become a whole person, not to get rid of a part of yourself that's causing you pain, but to experience it from a holistic vantage point to make sense of what's wrong with it and transform it. That same mind that is causing you pain is also the source of all your creativity, humor, craftsmanship, etc. You can't get rid of your ego, unless you want to spend the rest of your life OMing on acid, but you can be more than your ego, you can be your whole 'Self'.
QFT  
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Icyus
KavitārkikasiṃHa



Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deCypher]
#19336945 - 12/28/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Then, you ought to learn from michael harner, qouteguy...
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icyus]
#19337069 - 12/28/13 01:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have a few of his books in PDF format. Care to specify what I 'ought' to learn from him for the benefit of the class?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deCypher] 1
#19339334 - 12/28/13 10:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
What to you would be analogous to 'teaching the child how to play'?
It's your mind, thoughts, behaviors, attitudes, etc. In my experience, I couldn't just reject all the traits that repulsed me, label them as my ego, and atom bomb them out of existence permanently with LSD and mantras. At best, that gave me some slight insight into what might be my future self might be like. My mind wasn't perfect, but the LSD showed me that it had incredible potential for harmony, so I had to stop hiding from it even though at times it's discordant. A lot of it is self acceptance, being patient with my mind, giving it roots to grow... In my life this has included educating myself, 'right livelihood' - taking care of my responsibilities with my craft, and cultural activity - traveling, theatre, films, books, music, comedy etc.
"Remember what the Dormouse said. Feed your head. Feed your head."
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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