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Invisibleteknix
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Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk)
    #19334077 - 12/27/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

This is about mirror neurons and evidence of oneness.

http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_ramachandran_the_neurons_that_shaped_civilization.html


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: teknix]
    #19334616 - 12/27/13 09:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That was interesting. Something strange going on here for sure.  I  wonder what it is. :sun:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineiarphairc
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: Icelander]
    #19335896 - 12/28/13 07:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Cant wait to listen to this later :smile:

I think even if there was no actual proof its a profound lesson for people to learn


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OfflineMisterSandman
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: iarphairc]
    #19336210 - 12/28/13 09:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Damn :mindblown:


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: Icelander]
    #19336250 - 12/28/13 09:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
That was interesting. Something strange going on here for sure.  I  wonder what it is. :sun:




wonder :thumbup:


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Offlineiarphairc
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: MisterSandman]
    #19336253 - 12/28/13 09:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MisterSandman said:
Damn :mindblown:







Lol I read your signature as "Sometimes you have to get really high to realise how small you are" :laugh:


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OfflineMisterSandman
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: iarphairc]
    #19336340 - 12/28/13 10:13 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

iarphairc said:
Quote:

MisterSandman said:
Damn :mindblown:







Lol I read your signature as "Sometimes you have to get really high to realise how small you are" :laugh:




:lol: Yeah, it's what Buamgartner said before he did that space jump.

The whole quote goes something like "I wish you could see what I see. Sometimes you have to get up really high to realize how small you are. I'm going home now."

It always makes my eyes get all watery when I see the video.


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InvisibleLibertin
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: iarphairc]
    #19336350 - 12/28/13 10:16 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for sharing teknik, I love this kind of material!

For anyone that liked the video I urge you to check out Ramachandran's other lectures. His work in neuroscience has led to many absolutely fascinating case studies with equally fascinating implications for our understanding of the human brain.

In his lectures/documentaries I've learned about some incredible stuff for example:

  • Some people have a paralysed limb but they genuinely believe they can move it, and will make up absurd excuses to explain their inability to perform a simple task using the limb when requested. They are otherwise completely healthy and sane of mind - fascinating!
  • Some people have 'blind sight', in one-half of their field of vision they cannot see anything unless it is moving.
  • Phantom limb pain, in some cases, can be cured completely with the use of a simple optical illusion.
  • Capgras delusion is a disorder whereby the affected individual believes members of their family have been replaced with imposters.


Ramachandran has been involved in so much interesting work on the mind. He really is a treasure!


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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: MisterSandman]
    #19336378 - 12/28/13 10:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I swear I got shivers reading that quote.

I thought it was interesting, although not surprising at all, you see him hesitate before the jump and he has to be encouraged slightly.

It is a momentous clip for lack of a better word..I'm gonna watch it now :laugh:


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The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant- Maximilien Robespierre


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: iarphairc]
    #19336487 - 12/28/13 10:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I don't get too excited by this kind of thing. It's interesting but on a practical level humanity at large is very very very very very very very very very far from taking advantage of this information if true, imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: teknix]
    #19336578 - 12/28/13 11:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
This is about mirror neurons and evidence of oneness.

http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_ramachandran_the_neurons_that_shaped_civilization.html



sorry for delaying comment on this,
I normally don't like watching videos.
anyway
Vilayanur Ramachandran is proposing the wrong thing here, but I don't blame people from being excited.

two excellent examples are used  - one of throwing the ball,
and another of watching somebody be touched on the arm, and even being anaesthetized and watching somebody be touched on the arm

these are not at all mysterious.

there are no mirror neurons, and it is not really about one-ness at all.

however it is everything about memory and perception.

the very same cells that are involved when you throw the ball yourself, are involved in your memory of throwing the ball. and to a slightly less extent those same neurons are involved in your mental concept of throwing a ball.

Vilayanur Ramachandran should tell you about the cell activation states when simply talking about throwing a ball. etc. no empathy as such, straight on associative sequence while understanding the idea of throwing a ball.

Same with feeling what you see another person feeling when touched.
the idea of it accesses the memory of it which involves the very same cells that are activated when you last felt something like that.
AND
if your arm is anaethetized you will not be able to tell the difference between the real or memory event.
Vilayanur Ramachandran suggests that signals cancel that idea when sent from the  hand to the mirror neurons.
No
there are no mirror neurons, but you get 2 kinds of activation of the same set, one from memory and another from live sensation, and there is no problem telling which is more vital.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19338075 - 12/28/13 06:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Are you a doctor of neuroscience RGV? I think I asked this to you before but I don't think you answered.

I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have considered that possibility already, before reporting.

I think your explanation would have been the most obvious one, that was probably the first one ruled out for whatever reason?

Maybe you could e-mail him, and let him know that he is spreading misinformation if what you say is true, I'm sure he would be happy to know.

Maybe you are right, but what credentials are you basing your explanation off of?


Edited by teknix (12/28/13 06:14 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: teknix]
    #19338137 - 12/28/13 06:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Or do you want me to e-mail him and ask him how he ruled that out?

I think it would be better if you did it because you seem to know more about the subject than I.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: teknix] * 1
    #19338566 - 12/28/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

you can feel free to email him, and set me up on a lecture circuit too, can you get me $2500/day - that would be great!
but my credentials are not sufficient, I was a biochemist and neuro-biology major in the 1970s so I am critical and somewhat informed, and I can tell when people are making it up as he is.
none of my colleagues would have had confidence to call him out, but I would definitely if I were in his audience or class. I found several of my professors laboring under terrifically half baked notions.

that is kind of the norm


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19338586 - 12/28/13 08:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

you can feel free to email him

Yeah like that's going to happen. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19338587 - 12/28/13 08:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

How should I phrase the question?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: Icelander]
    #19338597 - 12/28/13 08:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
you can feel free to email him

Yeah like that's going to happen. :lol:




It's not hard to e-mail people man. I have e-mailed a few people pointing out errors, mostly authors.

They do appreciate it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: teknix]
    #19338604 - 12/28/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I await his response on the edge of my seat.  Maybe he'll want to join the shroomery. :curbyourenthusiasm:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19338608 - 12/28/13 08:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you can feel free to email him, and set me up on a lecture circuit too, can you get me $2500/day - that would be great!
but my credentials are not sufficient, I was a biochemist and neuro-biology major in the 1970s so I am critical and somewhat informed, and I can tell when people are making it up as he is.
none of my colleagues would have had confidence to call him out, but I would definitely if I were in his audience or class. I found several of my professors laboring under terrifically half baked notions.

that is kind of the norm





A lot can change over the course of 40 years though . . Especially in that field.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: teknix]
    #19338621 - 12/28/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well it's not like he's not able to keep learning on the subject.  If it was something he was that into I'll bet he still has a somewhat active interest in the subject.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: teknix]
    #19338647 - 12/28/13 08:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

not much really did tho
except for the cat vision thing.


I will be honest,
except for some nmr & cat scan stuff, nothing is more radical in neuroscience from my point of view over the last 40 years than this cat vision thing.

and it is really simple stuff; i.e. neuroscientists are mostly not on the ball


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19338674 - 12/28/13 08:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It does sound like you stay up to date on it, I thought the left/right brain thing having evidence against it was pretty big.

Also some of the works going on with QM and the brain and various bio-feedback research.

Actually, I don't know if I agree that not much has changed at all.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: teknix]
    #19338733 - 12/28/13 08:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

So what should I ask him RGV?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: teknix]
    #19339412 - 12/28/13 10:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

well, at this point since his career depends on acceptance of the theory proposed you may as well ask if he likes green jello. anything else and he will be pretty defensive.

Did you see his right eye? that guy is a fighter!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19339454 - 12/28/13 11:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You can take him Red, I know you can.  :booooom:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19339509 - 12/28/13 11:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

DP.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19339511 - 12/28/13 11:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
well, at this point since his career depends on acceptance of the theory proposed you may as well ask if he likes green jello. anything else and he will be pretty defensive.

Did you see his right eye? that guy is a fighter!




Haha, you may be right.

Funny icelander... :lol:


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: teknix]
    #19339715 - 12/29/13 12:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I sent an email to Vilayanur's .edu address, and also gave him a link to this thread; let's hope he takes the bait. :popcorn:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: Hobozen]
    #19339729 - 12/29/13 12:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

What did you say to him?


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: teknix]
    #19339751 - 12/29/13 12:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I told him that a debate on a forum has started concerning his claims of mirror neurons.  I quoted RVG's post and asked if he could clear up any possible misconceptions.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: Hobozen]
    #19339838 - 12/29/13 01:05 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I guess we has to await his response. You could have posed as a student or tried  some other social engineering to increase your odds of an answer though :P


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: teknix]
    #19339925 - 12/29/13 01:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm posting simply to subscribe to the possibility of a response from Vilayanur..
Thanks for sharing too Teknix :thumbup:


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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: cez]
    #19343591 - 12/29/13 09:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I haven't watched this video yet, but mirror neurons are one of my favorite subjects. Just goes to show that the brain can't necessarily differentiate outward experiences from those derived from within.


All is one and one is all.


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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19343818 - 12/29/13 09:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
AND
if your arm is anaethetized you will not be able to tell the difference between the real or memory event.





Why? Your memory is not impaired. Particularly not your memory of being anaesthetized. Why would touching of another suddenly be associated as touching of yourself? There is no reason I can see for that associative miscue to occur unless the associative process is dependent on those sensory clues. And in that case the argument put forth that the only thing dividing one from another is sensory experience holds true. Take that away and we don't know whether an association is our own or not. I thought that was precisely what Ramachandran was saying. Mirror neurons aside that is.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: teknix]
    #19344331 - 12/30/13 12:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

We look like cats to cats? :awepuss:

B. Alan Wallace has some great talks on the neurological correlates of consciousness.





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Invisiblecez
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: Middleman]
    #19344473 - 12/30/13 01:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That was a great lecture by Wallace :thumbup:


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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: Middleman]
    #19345423 - 12/30/13 08:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Great stuff Rev! :thumbup:

Very thought provoking and inspiring.


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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: Kickle]
    #19345451 - 12/30/13 08:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Take that away and we don't know whether an association is our own or not.





without a mirror neuron subsystem, the idea of the touch on the arm is an idea not limited to the following classes of associations:
1. personal sensation of finger on arm
2. visual sensation of finger on arm
3. language describing the act
4. language describing the sensation
...
1a. memory of personal sensation of finger on arm
2b. memory of visual sensation of finger on arm
3c. memory of language describing the act
4d. memory of language describing the sensation

for the idea to exist in the mind one or all of the sensations or memories will be connected to it.

The neurons that sense the touch are the same neurons that can be activated by the memory of the touch.
to be more accurate, those neurons that are activated by sensation are a superset of those neurons that are activated by the memory of that sensation...
i.e. during the memory of the sensation fewer neurons of that sensation will become 'reactivated' as a consequence of the associative memory system being 'lossy'; so you could say that simple  memories of experience are generally slightly QUIETER than fresh sensations.

what we call the idea includes, the various engrams or neural excitation patterns that are associated with it.

so when we see another person touch their arm, we perceive the idea, and in that perception our associated engrams are activated.

that is standard associative recall.

even if our arm is anesthetized, we will perceive the act by watching the other person, and so the sensory memory (1a) will be activated by association.

the memory activation of the (quieter) subset of the same sensory monitor cells of the arm being touched will be strong enough that the sleeping arm (producing no signals) will strongly seem to have been touched.
Some of the same being touched neurons will have been activated, enough to make it seem local IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY LIVE SIGNAL which would be current and referentially baseline.

the proposal of a extra mirror neurons AND extra signal suppression circuitry adds two levels of complication over top of what is simple and obvious


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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19350226 - 12/31/13 08:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Do you have any evidence for the mechanism by which memory activates this subset of neurons referred to as mirror neurons? If not then its a speculative sell. Not that such speculation is invalid, but it could be. As far as I know mirror neurons took their name when no causal link was found to explain this secondary activation. So this reflection of others activation became ascribed as a property of the neuron just as the reflective quality of a mirror is ascribed to the mirror.


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: Kickle]
    #19350329 - 12/31/13 09:04 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

there is a large body of evidence for:
  • a simple model of memory engram pattern:

    *where neurons that are activated at the same time become interlinked
    *where repetition of activation strenghtens the linkage

  • a simple mechanism of memory activation:
    where if part of the pattern is supplied either by

    * sensation or
    * ideation - memory -thought - language - perception




when this large body of evidence is reviewed to any extent, the need for mirror neurons vanishes,

Besides that, no method for mirror neurons to function has been proposed that gets ay where near to being consistent with any model of memory formation and activation; except for people wishing that magical mirror neurons might exist.

An understanding of the brain working as a unit to experience blended sensory input in the ongoing process of making memories is not trivial, but it is doable, and much of the necessary research has already been done, however a unified model has not yet been properly ratified by a consensus of neurologists.

If one were ratified (such as the one I proposed about 30 years back (sketched out here) - which no existing science disproves and much of the record supports) then the theory of motor neurons would have absolutely no traction whatsoever.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Evidence of Oneness (Ted Talk) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19350352 - 12/31/13 09:11 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

I'll read some. Any particular articles you'd reference?

I did notice this criticism of mirror neurons and thought it fit well into what you are saying:

"Vladimir Kosonogov sees another contradiction. ... the mirror neurons are activated only when the observed action is goal-directed (object-directed action or a communicative gesture, which certainly has a goal too) or is a pantomime of a goal-directed action. How do they β€œknow” that the definite action is goal-directed or is a pantomime of the goal-directed action? At what stage of their activation do they detect a goal of the movement or its absence? In his opinion, the mirror neuron system can be activated only after the goal of the observed action is attributed by some other brain structures."


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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