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OfflineIcyus
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what is enlightenment?
    #19333640 - 12/27/13 04:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

There has been talk of enlightenment, and there has been many one an opinion, yet, I cannot really put my finger on what it really is..

maybe someone willnpostvtheir idea, and I will think on it.. to see who are indeed enlightened..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19333664 - 12/27/13 05:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

There are many definitions of it, and it is easier to say what it isn't than to say what it is. By eliminating what it isn't, what you are left with is what is, or the possibilities of what it is.

Personally I think it has to do with discovering the entirety of the energy body.


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: teknix]
    #19333667 - 12/27/13 05:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Still.. that is everything else, and everything is alot..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19333674 - 12/27/13 05:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

If only it was so easy to say. It's not the words anyway, so any words used to describe it wouldn't really be what it is.

Something to experience.


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: teknix]
    #19333685 - 12/27/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That is quite the problem I posess then.. I have expereanced many stages of absoluteness and cannot know which would be enlightenment.. or if i havent expereanced  it yet.. thus I ask help in defining it...


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19333734 - 12/27/13 05:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Did you do metta?


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: teknix]
    #19333741 - 12/27/13 05:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I have not sat down, legs crossed, but the principles of it, yes. We were healing mother earth...


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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InvisibleThe Phleg
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19333792 - 12/27/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Enlightenment is whatever satisfies you and doesn't annoy other people.


--------------------
You wanna get high? Drink tap water.
--------------------


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19333824 - 12/27/13 05:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
I have not sat down, legs crossed, but the principles of it, yes. We were healing mother earth...





Well that's part of it afaik, under metta is the inner fire as well. I inadvertently discovered it from practicing metta. I do internal Alchemy so it is a bit different than what others practice.

What about anatta?

Third eye or Kundalini Awakening?

I have some things in my sig about the practices.


--------------------
.6th and 7th sense theory
.Now is forever. .ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞTheﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞUnseenﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ is seenﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ by the blindﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ eye.ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ
ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ
ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ.When the inevitable time comes, go with your head held high,without regret or remorse, in your subconscious mind.
ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ
ﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞﱞ


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: teknix]
    #19333877 - 12/27/13 05:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry man, but I am not familiar with the terms youare using... could you explain the basic principles?


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19333965 - 12/27/13 06:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
There has been talk of enlightenment, and there has been many one an opinion, yet, I cannot really put my finger on what it really is..

maybe someone willnpostvtheir idea, and I will think on it.. to see who are indeed enlightened..





enlightenment for this one is when the struggle stops and no further effort is wasted on trying to be enlightened. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19333970 - 12/27/13 06:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

In that case, I am.. if that isbpossible to say..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19333995 - 12/27/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Its basically being fully conscious of what you are but it could be defined in other ways.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19334010 - 12/27/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
In that case, I am.. if that isbpossible to say..




We all get to say anything we want. And we do. That's what's so entertaining. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19334011 - 12/27/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

This stuff:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14135177

Who/what you are, internally.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19334015 - 12/27/13 06:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Icyus said:
There has been talk of enlightenment, and there has been many one an opinion, yet, I cannot really put my finger on what it really is..

maybe someone willnpostvtheir idea, and I will think on it.. to see who are indeed enlightened..





enlightenment for this one is when the struggle stops and no further effort is wasted on trying to be enlightened. :satansmoking:




Yes its when the struggle stops but are you not wasting effort still on other perhaps even less profitable pursuits? If youre not seeking "enlightenment" chances are you will simply seek, pleasure, rest and understanding in other ways.

Enlightenment is when SEEKING stops. It doesnt matter what you are seeking, whether its sex with a lot of partners or enlightenment. Its still seeking. Enlightenment means the end of seeking.


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Deviate]
    #19334022 - 12/27/13 06:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

In such case, I am enlightened...no try, simply do.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Deviate]
    #19334024 - 12/27/13 06:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well I seek to not be in pain so I guess I'm not enlightened yet.  I'll have to settle for my daily fix.  It's coming on right now and I'm in a stellar mood so this is for you dear one. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19334412 - 12/27/13 08:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well I seek to not be in pain so I guess I'm not enlightened yet.  I'll have to settle for my daily fix.  It's coming on right now and I'm in a stellar mood so this is for you dear one. :heart:





Its natural to seek not to be pain. This is called concupiscence  in CHristianity and it is the desire for good. Humans innately desire to feel good.

concupiscence has been understood to be the tendency toward sin but the Catholic Church teaches that its actually simply the desire for good and this leads us to sin when we act with an ignorant understanding of what will really bring us good.

The more enlightened you are, the more you understood what will really bring you what you really want, which is enduring happiness, free from misery. So enlightenment is the end of misery caused by ignorance, certainly a goal worth striving for.

An enlightened being seeks to not be in pain either. Only an enlightened being does not think "when this pain is gone, then I will be happy". An enlightened being is very happy despite the pain and then when the pain is gone, he is even happier. So there is no seeking in the sense of looking toward the fiture for happiness, but there is seeking in the sense of goal oriented action.


Edited by Deviate (12/27/13 08:36 PM)


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Invisiblecez
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19334453 - 12/27/13 08:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Peanut butter and baby carrots.


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: cez]
    #19334675 - 12/27/13 09:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Enlightenment might be obsoleted by your own ability and effort to get the most out of life anyway.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: circastes]
    #19334820 - 12/27/13 10:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Enlightenment isn't obtained, just felt momentarily. And know that the state of enlightenment is ineffable, it is literally unable to be described in words.

"The word enlightenment conjures up the idea of some superhuman accomplishment, and the ego likes to keep it that way, but it is simply your natural state of felt oneness with Being. It is a state of connectedness with something immeasurable and indestructible, something that, almost paradoxically, is essentially you and yet is much greater than you. It is finding your true nature beyond name and form."


My personal description of it is something like this...
Picture a clean white wall. If you look at it, you don't know where on that wall to focus, since it's all that one wall. But if I make a mark on the wall, suddenly that's all you can focus on, something has manifested, there is now duality. Our thoughts are just like that mark on the wall, a possibility that has been chosen. A blank wall(a clear mind with no thoughts, notions, preconceptions, labels etc) is all possibility, like a graph with no points marked, it is oneness. Consciousness is like the canvas that a painting is painted on. The paint on the canvas being no different than thoughts. So in this way, you realize that thought is limiting, because it only highlights one thing out of nearly infinite possibilities. It is like the outer edge of a fractal, the leaf or outer branch of a tree...or another way I like to think about it, boulders in a stream keeping it from flowing as one unit. It is an obstruction to true/pure subjective and impartial thought.


Edited by Thecrimson (12/27/13 10:41 PM)


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19334884 - 12/27/13 11:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

that's nice writing :thumbup:

the marks, or thoughts in our case, fade away pretty quickly though. but that clean white wall remains. so are those marks really ever on the wall?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Deviate]
    #19335635 - 12/28/13 05:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Well I seek to not be in pain so I guess I'm not enlightened yet.  I'll have to settle for my daily fix.  It's coming on right now and I'm in a stellar mood so this is for you dear one. :heart:





Its natural to seek not to be pain. This is called concupiscence  in CHristianity and it is the desire for good. Humans innately desire to feel good.

concupiscence has been understood to be the tendency toward sin but the Catholic Church teaches that its actually simply the desire for good and this leads us to sin when we act with an ignorant understanding of what will really bring us good.

The more enlightened you are, the more you understood what will really bring you what you really want, which is enduring happiness, free from misery. So enlightenment is the end of misery caused by ignorance, certainly a goal worth striving for.

An enlightened being seeks to not be in pain either. Only an enlightened being does not think "when this pain is gone, then I will be happy". An enlightened being is very happy despite the pain and then when the pain is gone, he is even happier. So there is no seeking in the sense of looking toward the fiture for happiness, but there is seeking in the sense of goal oriented action.




seeking happiness is still seeking. Even so; "even the best intentions may sire the greatest horrors".. that, I was supprised for knowledge cristiqnity would hold.. but then again, the vampires ought to know their magick too, right?


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19335935 - 12/28/13 08:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
I cannot really put my finger on what it really is...




because that's what it is :smile:

or so my finger says :nono:


--------------------


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19336381 - 12/28/13 10:24 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

A simple way of explaining enlightenment is to say it is the final state of consciousness in which the soul becomes reality and truth.

Enlightenment is when the soul experiences only it's own self completely independently of the phenomenal universe. Contrary to popular belief enlightened souls do not live in this world, instead when a human being becomes enlightened they actually lose consciousness of the physical universe. This is because the physical universe is discovered to be an illusion that is generated by ones own soul. The enlightened soul experiences only its own self.. which in truth is the real substance of reality.

This final experience of reality is not temporal, it is not an experience in time. This is because the experience of time is dependent upon the phenomenal universe of cause and effect and as stated, the god-realized soul does not experience the universe but only it's own self. It exists independently of time and space.

The
Quote:

sole purpose of creation is for the soul to enjoy the infinite state of the Oversoul consciously. Although the soul eternally exists in and with the Oversoul in an inviolable unity, it cannot be conscious of this unity independently of creation, which is within the limitations of time. It must therefore evolve consciousness before it can realize its true status and nature as being identical with the infinite Oversoul, which is one without a second. The evolution of consciousness requires the duality of subject and object — the center of consciousness and the environment (that is, the world of forms).




The very reason enlightenment is FREEDOM is because the soul no longer has any times to the physical universe which is bound by law. To have desires bound up with the physical universe means to be bound by its laws.

The key to understanding this is you must first come to view reality as the self.. our existence is the substance of reality, we are reality itself.. how could we be separate?


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: soldatheero]
    #19336398 - 12/28/13 10:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
The key to understanding this is you must first come to view reality as the self.. our existence is the substance of reality, we are reality itself.. how could we be separate?




:thumbup:


--------------------


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19336412 - 12/28/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

If it is what I though it was.. this sense of flowing the aetherius, just simply being.. the almighty everything and nothing.. then I got out of this head and looked inwards, to the core.. cracking open the schell there were love and happiness, a lion of fire and then there was fears and suffering and pain and then nothing, as the manifestations of pain balckened into nothingness.. and then I started sensing variations in nothingness.. that not only was impossible to put into speach, but neither visualizable as the nothingness had been...

Then I wonder.. where to put enlightenment in all this... is it past, present or future, I wonder... after many words I have heard, I am.. but then again.. how could someone who has never been enlightened know what they speak of.. what a fool I am.. asking the brush to paint a picture...

I used to be man.. then I was absolete. Then I was God and so I am indescribable... and now another wqy of indescibablility.. after countless variations...  these words leave me in an other indescribable state..  I cannot speak too much profetic... furthermore, noone would be able to comprehend it...

these words are useless... how can I know? Maybe stop asking you guys would be a good start.. off asking the spirits then..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19338374 - 12/28/13 07:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It's this really awesome experience that I've had and you haven't. Best experience possible. Words can't even describe it. It makes me feel superior to you and hopefully makes you feel like I have something that you want. Will you be my follower?


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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InvisibleRoger Wilco
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19339708 - 12/29/13 12:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
It's this really awesome experience that I've had and you haven't. Best experience possible. Words can't even describe it. It makes me feel superior to you and hopefully makes you feel like I have something that you want. Will you be my follower?




Yes! Sounds great! I will follow! but only if you take my money distort my ability to create my own perspectives.


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19340297 - 12/29/13 05:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

<<When someone trancends desire and suffering>>

indeed we are then.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19340801 - 12/29/13 09:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Roger Wilco said:
Quote:

nicechrisman said:
It's this really awesome experience that I've had and you haven't. Best experience possible. Words can't even describe it. It makes me feel superior to you and hopefully makes you feel like I have something that you want. Will you be my follower?




Yes! Sounds great! I will follow! but only if you take my money distort my ability to create my own perspectives.



:nodofunderstanding:


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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OfflineSse
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Roger Wilco]
    #19342337 - 12/29/13 04:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

enlightenment is the element of surprise


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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OfflineSse
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Sse]
    #19343537 - 12/29/13 08:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Sse]
    #19344653 - 12/30/13 02:05 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

it's about removing all ideas about anything. Everything in our mind is separated into categories, this thread is in a category which is in a category which is on a forum which is on a website which is on the internet etc etc. It's almost like realizing the highest category possible. The category that encompasses everything. When you remove your focus from any one thing at a time you focus on everything. Like a said, a graph with no plots, when there are no coordinates marked, you realize the entire graph, it all becomes one. When you realize our minds are always focused on one thing or another, everything becomes that one graph.


Enlightenment is this experiencing the pointless graph. Look at this picture..
See the large part of the river on the right? This is the best way I can describe the thoughtless/perceptionless feeling. When I was fully one it felt like I had a fountain of ideas in my head, like nothing was being filitered. The 'river' of my mind was being allowed to flow completely freely without disruption of fragmentation of thoughts(where the river splits). Within that 1 main river flow contains everything, as the river split's it contains less and less. Just like as we think, we perceive less and less, we focus on subjects which then have subcategories within subcategories. The 1 main river flow is the pointless graph, the different veins are plots on the graph. There was something behind thoughts in our head, something separate from the 'thinker', it's where the thinker thinks.

I know it sounds weird, and doesn't seem to imply much, but there is where the inability to really describe it limits me. And I don't say it's indescribable to make it sound dramatic, I mean it is literally non-compatable with words, because words can't be applied to something without fragmenting it. This is where I bring science in, how can you expect science to explain what can't be put into words when science uses words?


As far as peace. Peace is just the natural flow of things, it's a system working flawlessly and as designed. It's the main river flowing freely and undisturbed. It is the way things are supposed to work. It's not that disharmony can't or doesn't happen, but it is disruptive.
Therefore, since thoughts are the things that fragment the river, they disturb peace. 'Thoughts' being beliefs, preconceptions, ideas about things, labels etc. The thoughts that separate and categorize things.


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InvisibleInto The Woods
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19344678 - 12/30/13 02:13 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
Quote:

Roger Wilco said:
Quote:

nicechrisman said:
It's this really awesome experience that I've had and you haven't. Best experience possible. Words can't even describe it. It makes me feel superior to you and hopefully makes you feel like I have something that you want. Will you be my follower?




Yes! Sounds great! I will follow! but only if you take my money distort my ability to create my own perspectives.



:nodofunderstanding:




:lol:


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Into The Woods]
    #19344961 - 12/30/13 04:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)


This guys pretty wise.


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19344974 - 12/30/13 04:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Haven't checked out Robert Wolfe before, thanks!

edit:

Got a good vibe from this guy :thumbup:


--------------------


Edited by Chronic7 (12/31/13 05:13 AM)


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OfflineSammysong
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19353854 - 01/01/14 07:01 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

The one who is trying to find out who he is, is a mere puppet. To him, he is a person; empowered by volition and in control of his destiny. In truth, he is an appearance in consciousness – and phenomena can have no freedom. He thinks he is living his life – not knowing that every choice and every act, he himself and all else, is governed by the hands of the totality.

In other words, he is ignorant to the fact that as such, he is being lived.

He believes that he can be enlightened. But he can’t – for he is nothing but a cluster of sensations. Visual, tactile and auditory phenomena are construed into a “body” by an act of conceptualizing, which is the functioning whereby objects are fabricated in the mind. Where there is nothing but fleeting sensations, “he” is conjured up by thought.

Colors, sensations and thoughts, which is all that he is, cannot be enlightened - only a person could, and there is none.


--------------------


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19353978 - 01/01/14 08:43 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
That is quite the problem I posess then.. I have expereanced many stages of absoluteness and cannot know which would be enlightenment.. or if i havent expereanced  it yet.. thus I ask help in defining it...



maybe when you stop defining everything

just relax, that is pretty pleasant in nature

but my word is as good as yours, nobody would know what enlightenment really is
words are imperfect IMO

buddhists often say when you realize buddha-nature all suffering ends
no problems, no suffering  for if you control your thoughts you control it all

I wouldnt call it enlightenment myself, for there would be no reason to be on earth if you were fully enlightened likely
maybe just fully realized being, but still growing

seems I am here because I cannot accept ;-)
have a purpose I have to do

if you have realized yourself you would probably know who you are, why you are here
same inside always


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Sammysong]
    #19354011 - 01/01/14 09:00 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Sammysong said:
The one who is trying to find out who he is, is a mere puppet. To him, he is a person; empowered by volition and in control of his destiny. In truth, he is an appearance in consciousness – and phenomena can have no freedom. He thinks he is living his life – not knowing that every choice and every act, he himself and all else, is governed by the hands of the totality.



Nice.

I agree there's no true freedom.  That sounds terribly fatalistic to some, but I find the notion empowering, actually. 

I cannot fuck up.  Even when I'm deluded and make bad choices, I'm merely doing what I must do, at that particular moment.  The entire universe is acting through me to bring me to that particular moment of fucked-up-ness. 

The next moment may be better.  Or not. 

Either way is okay.


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19354022 - 01/01/14 09:05 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Sammysong said:
The one who is trying to find out who he is, is a mere puppet. To him, he is a person; empowered by volition and in control of his destiny. In truth, he is an appearance in consciousness – and phenomena can have no freedom. He thinks he is living his life – not knowing that every choice and every act, he himself and all else, is governed by the hands of the totality.



Nice.

I agree there's no true freedom.  That sounds terribly fatalistic to some, but I find the notion empowering, actually. 

I cannot fuck up.  Even when I'm deluded and make bad choices, I'm merely doing what I must do, at that particular moment.  The entire universe is acting through me to bring me to that particular moment of fucked-up-ness. 

The next moment may be better.  Or not. 

Either way is okay.





You can dress it up to sound fancy but it doesn't mean there's no freedom, the post you quoted is a silly one. I can't fly around in the sky unaided, doesn't mean I'm not free.


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19354047 - 01/01/14 09:18 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
You can dress it up to sound fancy but it doesn't mean there's no freedom, the post you quoted is a silly one. I can't fly around in the sky unaided, doesn't mean I'm not free.



Notions concerning volition and free will are delusional.  Anyone into the concept of "ego attachment" should immediately recognize the claim of "free will" as the grandest ego attachment of them all.

As the previous post is suggesting (if I'm interpreting it correctly), you are, in this moment, the sum total of everything that preceded you, manifested in your particular body and with your particular consciousness.

You're not "in charge."  None of us are.

Kind of scary, yes -- but get over it.  :wink:


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19354053 - 01/01/14 09:20 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Chill.. stop giving a f6ck.. and be abliss!


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19354138 - 01/01/14 09:54 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Thecrimson said:
You can dress it up to sound fancy but it doesn't mean there's no freedom, the post you quoted is a silly one. I can't fly around in the sky unaided, doesn't mean I'm not free.



Notions concerning volition and free will are delusional.  Anyone into the concept of "ego attachment" should immediately recognize the claim of "free will" as the grandest ego attachment of them all.

As the previous post is suggesting (if I'm interpreting it correctly), you are, in this moment, the sum total of everything that preceded you, manifested in your particular body and with your particular consciousness.

You're not "in charge."  None of us are.

Kind of scary, yes -- but get over it.  :wink:




We aren't in charge of everything, but as far as we are concerned there is free will. You might have some unchangeable features, but you can decide what to do with what's been given to you. There's a difference between being enlightened and living enlightened. If you always lived in the state of enlightenment you would be useless, you might as well be a plant. You should only take what you can from 'enlightenment' and apply it to your every day life. Otherwise what use is enlightenment?

I think some of you get so wrapped up in talking about ego dissolution and all of this that you're ego just returns in another way, making you spout nonsense.


Edited by Thecrimson (01/01/14 09:59 AM)


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OfflineMotherNaturesSon
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19354176 - 01/01/14 10:12 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

I guess I would say enlightenment is a state of mind in which the person experiences a universal sense of peace, happiness, stability, focus and flow regardless of the circumstances surrounding him. That is not to say that one cannot experience sadness and constantly be in a full-on blissful trance-like state, but rather that the element of suffering is no longer there even when experiencing things such as sadness or pain. This points to adequate responsiveness and the honouring of one's genuine emotions . It is first and foremost a personal experience, achieved for oneself, by yourself at the expense of absolutely nothing. Meaning no one else has been put off their path because of your own ambitions, no one has been hurt, bothered or in any other way negatively affected by your directly. The only way in which one can naturally affect others by walking his own path is to inspire and comfort. This creates a sense of freedom from entanglement. It is a state where one has undergone the excruciating transformation of processing trauma and inner insecurities.

But all this is what I believe enlightenment feels like without getting too poetic in the description (one with the universe and the truth, or what have you) based on my own expectations and criteria. But what enlightenment actually "is" is actually a completely different question, isn't it? I believe enlightenment is a mental state achieved by finding a personal solution for the conflict of our emotional and logical aspects of the mind. As we evolved, a new application of our minds (so to speak) began to function in a neural environment that had up until that point been completely emotional (the limbic system) and physical (the reptilian brain). That is the neo mammalian brain, the logical and calculative but also the abstract yet conceptual brain. That is the newest addition to our mental evolution. It would not be farfetched to assume that being a species with a relatively new brain part that enables us to experiences things in a new way- that we have yet to find a way to fully integrate this aspect into our psyche. It is not fully stable as of yet and we are in the very midst of that integration process. Enlightenment may be considered a single person's experience as he integrates all the aspects of his mind and the mind then becomes what it intends to be in a sense of evolution. Whereas madness and other destructive or self-destructive actions or thought patterns emerge as a result of direct and indirect failure to achieve said integration. While enlightenment is a personal experience, I wonder what the world would look like with every person enlightened, as I imagine it today. What would humanity be like? What would we be doing?

Happy new year everyone :lol:


--------------------
:watchingyou: :raptorJesus: :teabird: :watchingyou:

Excerpts of inner dialogue III-V-VIII:

"Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions."
"So you believe in intensions?"
"No. I believe in being genuine."


"The goal is to become more child-like, and less child-ish."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19354264 - 01/01/14 10:48 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

but you can decide what to do with what's been given to you.

You can? And where does the decision come from? Is nothing but you in this moment influencing it? Because if the past had an influence then imo it's not free. It does feel free however and I'll agree there.

Well, it doesn't feel as free as it used to 40 years ago when I was in my 20s. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19354295 - 01/01/14 11:01 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

So what would you consider 'free' that we aren't? Freedom to travel between dimensions? God knows you're not free until you can do that..

Don't try to make some "we're not the thinkers" logic with me.


Edited by Thecrimson (01/01/14 11:02 AM)


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19354347 - 01/01/14 11:22 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
but you can decide what to do with what's been given to you.

You can? And where does the decision come from? Is nothing but you in this moment influencing it? Because if the past had an influence then imo it's not free.



You're the sum of every cell division that occurred beginning with the moment your father's sperm met your mother's egg.  Your ability to use a computer and write intelligently (or not) on the subjects covered in this forum was a done deal from that moment on.

Environment is a factor, sure.  But a minor factor imo.

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
I think some of you get so wrapped up in talking about ego dissolution and all of this that you're ego just returns in another way, making you spout nonsense.



We promise to stop spouting nonsense if you promise to use "your" when appropriate.  :wink:

For the record, I'd like to once again disassociate myself from the "ego dissolution" crowd.  The "Big Bad Ego" is as much a fiction as the notion of 100 percent free will.

Our Big Bad Egos -- as well as our sense of there being "free will" -- are useful to us, otherwise these "things" would not have come to us.

Nothing that comes to us naturally and in an uncontrived manner is without use.

Imo.


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19354368 - 01/01/14 11:30 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

You haven't explained how we don't have free will.


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19354379 - 01/01/14 11:34 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

I think free will is a matter of perspective. Just depends on how you choose to look at it.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19354410 - 01/01/14 11:42 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
You haven't explained how we don't have free will.



Perhaps you're thinking of "free will" as the "will" to read this post or not read this post.  That's not what I and others are talking about in this thread.

Of course you can decide your next move.  But only within the parameters permitted by your biology.

I can read every physics textbook ever written, memorize every word, but I'll never be an Albert Einstein.

Biology biology biology.


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: all this beauty] * 1
    #19354449 - 01/01/14 11:54 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

You mean I'll never be a tall Jamaican woman? Damn this slavery.




We're free as far as it matters. Anyways it's kind of off topic.


Edited by Thecrimson (01/01/14 12:13 PM)


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19354512 - 01/01/14 12:14 PM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
You mean I'll never be a tall Jamaican woman? Damn this slavery.



No.  I mean that if you thought it was "free will" that brought you to this Internet forum, think again.

What brought you to this Internet forum was a trillion trillion trillion trillion cell divisions that have occurred in the bag of blood and bones known as "Thecrimson."


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OfflineSse
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: MotherNaturesSon]
    #19354522 - 01/01/14 12:18 PM (10 years, 29 days ago)

no suffering, no dissatisfaction, no controlling desire

life could still be quite rough :shrug: perhaps completely handle able though, no such thing as overwhelmed? No personal attachment, just Teflon blood... slides right off but still experienced fully?

not necessarily asking questions here, just questioning myself :p

as they say as long as there is an idea, there is no reality. 


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (01/01/14 01:03 PM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19354539 - 01/01/14 12:25 PM (10 years, 29 days ago)

genetics, experiences, environmental conditions, nutrition

shape

experiencer

reactions

all current volition shaped by past volition, shaped by environment, circumstance, make-up

life is what you make it and life is what makes you

If you were placed in anyone's exact situation, you would be exactly them; doing, saying the exact same things.

all decisions we will make have already been shaped and are being shaped, leading to the next volition.

"buzzing around like a computerized machine whooooooooooooooooooooooooa" :whoa:


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (01/01/14 01:16 PM)


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Sse]
    #19354656 - 01/01/14 01:06 PM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Sse said:


If you were placed in anyone's exact situation, you would be exactly them; doing, saying the exact same things.




It's hard not to facepalm hard at this kind of stuff.


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OfflineSse
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19354686 - 01/01/14 01:14 PM (10 years, 29 days ago)

likewise hehhe

if you underwent everything environmentally, all conditions(genetic, environmental, nutritional, what have you), all circumstances as the other being, you would be exactly them. no doubt about it. doing exactly what they do, exactly what they've done.

I assume you misunderstood what I was laying down, the wording isn't/may not be complete enough.



--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (01/01/14 01:22 PM)


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Sse]
    #19354811 - 01/01/14 01:51 PM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Does noone listen to me? Bad vibes, men.

The world is really fucked up, and there are contradictions in everything.. Be abliss! Why? Because it feals nice.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19355956 - 01/01/14 07:20 PM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
So what would you consider 'free' that we aren't? Freedom to travel between dimensions? God knows you're not free until you can do that..

Don't try to make some "we're not the thinkers" logic with me.




I already told you but guess that went right over your head. And then of course we've hardly touched on genes. :haha:

Logic is likely wasted on you from the look of your responses. I've never mentioned once supernatural powers. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19356866 - 01/02/14 12:55 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

No you're just trying to pass off some psuedo poetic version of free will that's ultimately meaningless in the wrong thread.


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OfflineSammysong
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19357060 - 01/02/14 02:07 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

We have created this artificial conceptual model of reality through which we interpret our experience. It’s built around this core belief that there is an objective universe out there in which we exist. And by looking through that lens, we divide what is nothing but pure subjectivity – seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting and thinking – into the subject we take to be ourself, and the objects that make up the world – and whereas their existence is solely conceptual, we believe them to be entirely real.

This model constitutes our captivity. To hold it for truth is ignorance. We need to investigate that model, to pull it apart and see if it will stand against logical scrutiny – it won't, of course, and by seeing through the beliefs that holds us in bondage we effectively place ourselves in the vicinity of awakening.


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Invisiblecez
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Sammysong]
    #19357079 - 01/02/14 02:16 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Enlightenment is a joke.
Its something people strive for but its nothing special.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19357148 - 01/02/14 02:48 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
I cannot really put my finger on what it really is..
.




Try on a koan - the sound of one hand clapping, the taste of your own tongue, point at the moon and mistake your finger for the moon etc. Five senses cannot sense the fact of your own existence.  That's just a bunch of dead symbolic squabble that will probably confuse you more.

Go ahead and analyze the validity of models and where they all inevitably fall up short. While I must say it's fun, it's better yet go get your hands dirty and report back.  Those reports too will fall up short, but they'll be a closer approximation from your vantage point IME.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: cez]
    #19357158 - 01/02/14 02:55 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Another personal description of what it is..
It's only by the experiencing can you begin to understand it and more importantly what it implies.


Think of a graph

You can mark points all over this thing. When even 1 point is left on the graph that is the point of focus. But remove all of the points and what are you left with? Just the graph, just the field that has the possibility for a nearly infinite amount of points. When the focus isn't on 1 specific thing, it's on all of them.The graph itself becomes 1 thing because it has no points on it to make anything separate.



Quote:

cez said:
Enlightenment is a joke.
Its something people strive for but its nothing special.




Hah no, it brings clarity to everything.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19357167 - 01/02/14 03:00 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
Another personal description of what it is..
It's only by the experiencing can you begin to understand it and more importantly what it implies.


Think of a graph

You can mark points all over this thing. When even 1 point is left on the graph that is the point of focus. But remove all of the points and what are you left with? Just the graph, just the field that has the possibility for a nearly infinite amount of points. When the focus isn't on 1 specific thing, it's on all of them.The graph itself becomes 1 thing because it has no points on it to make anything separate.







Oh wait.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisiblecez
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19357169 - 01/02/14 03:00 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

To think anything of enlightenment is to throw a veil on it entirely.

I don't know this but suspect this.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: cez]
    #19357178 - 01/02/14 03:06 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

cez said:
To think anything of enlightenment is to throw a veil on it entirely.

I don't know this but suspect this.




The piercing mind of prana may illuminate through the veil.  The veil is still a veil, but can some light shine through, and further your own understanding?  Maybe so, maybe not. Or sometimes yes, sometimes no.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19357680 - 01/02/14 09:30 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
No you're just trying to pass off some psuedo poetic version of free will that's ultimately meaningless in the wrong thread.




All you're doing is spouting. You've never once explained your objections to what I've posted or provided evidence for it. You've not nothing but hot air. :shrug:

There's nothing poetic about my views on the subject. I see no real evidence for free will and I've explained why. Every act is influenced by a preceding act and that's not even considering genetics or cultural programming.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19357707 - 01/02/14 09:39 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Thecrimson said:
No you're just trying to pass off some psuedo poetic version of free will that's ultimately meaningless in the wrong thread.




All you're doing is spouting. You've never once explained your objections to what I've posted or provided evidence for it. You've not nothing but hot air. :shrug:

There's nothing poetic about my views on the subject. I see no real evidence for free will and I've explained why. Every act is influenced by a preceding act and that's not even considering genetics or cultural programming.




Yes, influenced, not mandated.


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19357761 - 01/02/14 10:03 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
There's nothing poetic about my views on the subject. I see no real evidence for free will and I've explained why. Every act is influenced by a preceding act and that's not even considering genetics or cultural programming.




Yes, influenced, not mandated.



Biologically speaking, there most definitely is a "mandate."  I'm capable of discerning only what my brain permits me to discern.  No leeway there.  No wiggle room. 

If I'm fated to be a wise and holy man, so be it.  If I'm fated to live in a state of delusion, so be it.  Really nothing I can do about it.

All my individual choices have their "roots" in my biology.  Yes, environment matters, but only to encourage or discourage the manifestation of my biological destiny.

If I have the right genes and I was born to wealthy parents, I might go to an exclusive school and discover the cure for cancer.  If I have the right genes and I was born into poverty, the odds are much smaller that my biological potential will be realized.

Control freaks freak out when they read stuff like this.  Particularly Western control freaks who were raised in the Judeo-Christian "master of my fate" mindset, whereby you get to heaven only by doing and believing the "right things."

Ergo, "I have to be in charge, otherwise I may be doomed to eternal damnation."


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19357774 - 01/02/14 10:11 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

I think you're taking the term free will too literally. Obviously some things are predestined, it really is pretty meaningless. You're basically saying, 'if I was that person, I'd be him'. Well no shit.


Edited by Thecrimson (01/02/14 10:16 AM)


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19357876 - 01/02/14 10:49 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
I think you're taking the term free will too literally. Obviously some things are predestined, it really is pretty meaningless. You're basically saying, 'if I was that person, I'd be him'. Well no shit.



No, I'm saying "There's no problem with me being who I am, because that's what [nature / God / the Dao / destiny / whatever the fuck] has in mind for me."

Others may feel differently, but I happen to find the "predestination mindset" quite comforting, actually.


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19357992 - 01/02/14 11:25 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Thecrimson said:
No you're just trying to pass off some psuedo poetic version of free will that's ultimately meaningless in the wrong thread.




All you're doing is spouting. You've never once explained your objections to what I've posted or provided evidence for it. You've not nothing but hot air. :shrug:

There's nothing poetic about my views on the subject. I see no real evidence for free will and I've explained why. Every act is influenced by a preceding act and that's not even considering genetics or cultural programming.




Yes, influenced, not mandated.




Influenced IS mandated. :tongue: Your mini responses say nothing imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19358485 - 01/02/14 01:15 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Thecrimson said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
There's nothing poetic about my views on the subject. I see no real evidence for free will and I've explained why. Every act is influenced by a preceding act and that's not even considering genetics or cultural programming.




Yes, influenced, not mandated.



Biologically speaking, there most definitely is a "mandate."  I'm capable of discerning only what my brain permits me to discern.  No leeway there.  No wiggle room. 

If I'm fated to be a wise and holy man, so be it.  If I'm fated to live in a state of delusion, so be it.  Really nothing I can do about it.

All my individual choices have their "roots" in my biology.  Yes, environment matters, but only to encourage or discourage the manifestation of my biological destiny.

If I have the right genes and I was born to wealthy parents, I might go to an exclusive school and discover the cure for cancer.  If I have the right genes and I was born into poverty, the odds are much smaller that my biological potential will be realized.

Control freaks freak out when they read stuff like this.  Particularly Western control freaks who were raised in the Judeo-Christian "master of my fate" mindset, whereby you get to heaven only by doing and believing the "right things."

Ergo, "I have to be in charge, otherwise I may be doomed to eternal damnation."




I don't think you have it all wrong, Westerners do tend to have a delusional belief that humans are born with some sort of metaphysical free will.  I think it's why we're so fucking bloody minded and can't forgive anyone for anything, blaming every man and woman for whatever behavior is taboo, because they could have chosen otherwise.  Take a look at fundamentalist Christians, they will blame somebody for being gay when all science suggests factors of heredity and imprinting (the environment hardwiring of the brain) determines sexual preference.

At the same time, for me the game of life is not merely the Oriental recognition and submission to the order of things as they are, resigning myself as an accident of heredity and environment.  While they have it right that I'm no more important than a humming bird or a tree, my life is not merely a matter of passively accepting my destiny to watch myself grow and blossom like a tree, albeit in the human format.

I think there's a distinctly third alternative.  I'm sure you've taken a look at occult teachings, Gurdjieff, Crowley - the ones that suggest that the orientals have it right, that you are born mechanical, but there are techniques outlined in esoteric traditions like Hermeticism & Sufism, in which one can become less mechanical and approximate in daily and yearly increments towards freedom and responsibility.  We're all here tweaking our own nervous system and finding various degrees of better living through chemistry, happy mutants of sorts. Learn to adapt, as Timothy Leary would say SMI^2LE.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19358521 - 01/02/14 01:22 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

That would imo beg the question of why one would being that journey and others would not and that brings me back to my suspicion that there is no truly free act. Everything was inspired or set in motion with the conditions of our birth and early programming via culture, initially through mater and pater.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19358594 - 01/02/14 01:36 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
That would imo beg the question of why one would being that journey and others would not and that brings me back to my suspicion that there is no truly free act. Everything was inspired or set in motion with the conditions of our birth and early programming via culture, initially through mater and pater.




Well, it wasn't, originally, it was an accident that I became a little more free for awhile when I was bit by a hallucinogenic spider :tongue:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19358611 - 01/02/14 01:39 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

There are no accidents in this regard imo. Another person may have not changed one iota. Your body chemistry, your brain conditions, your heredity all would play a significant factor here and likely more.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19358755 - 01/02/14 02:08 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
There are no accidents in this regard imo. Another person may have not changed one iota. Your body chemistry, your brain conditions, your heredity all would play a significant factor here and likely more.




I don't entirely agree, I think these drugs are substantial change agents - now if that's for the better or for the worse and whether it's a drastic change or a more subtle change is a different matter, but it's making some impact on your brain, on some level you've been tweaked.  Largely I'd point towards culture as having made the greatest impact on positive life changing trips though.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19359621 - 01/02/14 04:58 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Everything you eat changes your brain chemistry in some subtle way. Eat nothing but sugar and junk and you'll see what I mean. But something motivated you to take such things and that cannot be pushed away. If a drug changes you then it still wasn't your free will. IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDiMiTRi iNFiNiTY
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19359669 - 01/02/14 05:07 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

I think of it as a personal understanding of life, love, the universe, and a relief from all things stressful and binding on one's (singular) line of thought. A deeper peace than can only be accepted by someone who has no further questions.


--------------------
The understanding from which only the most enlightened of people possess is the key to evolution beyond this physical reality.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19359871 - 01/02/14 05:43 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Everything you eat changes your brain chemistry in some subtle way. Eat nothing but sugar and junk and you'll see what I mean. But something motivated you to take such things and that cannot be pushed away. If a drug changes you then it still wasn't your free will. IMO.




I don't disagree with either of these statements.  As I had said, we all start off mechanical robots, but I think for the vast majority of us it is not our genetics that are inhibiting us from experiencing unconditioned states of consciousness / taking on new, freer imprints.  It's not even bad imprints from childhood traumas that's stopping us, though that will certainly complicate the process, and some may need a well planned out trip session with a psychedelic psychotherapist or shaman.  The problem is these resources aren't readily available on a cultural level, they're not culturally valued.  That could change, and some positive changes are slowly happening in my estimation, but I'm not overly optimistic that they'll occur fast enough to reverse the damage being done to this planet that will inevitably render it inhospitable.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisiblecez
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19359904 - 01/02/14 05:50 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

You and Ice should have a radio station discussing topics like this :thumbup:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19360113 - 01/02/14 06:36 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Everything you eat changes your brain chemistry in some subtle way. Eat nothing but sugar and junk and you'll see what I mean. But something motivated you to take such things and that cannot be pushed away. If a drug changes you then it still wasn't your free will. IMO.




I don't disagree with either of these statements.  As I had said, we all start off mechanical robots, but I think for the vast majority of us it is not our genetics that are inhibiting us from experiencing unconditioned states of consciousness / taking on new, freer imprints.  It's not even bad imprints from childhood traumas that's stopping us, though that will certainly complicate the process, and some may need a well planned out trip session with a psychedelic psychotherapist or shaman.  The problem is these resources aren't readily available on a cultural level, they're not culturally valued.  That could change, and some positive changes are slowly happening in my estimation, but I'm not overly optimistic that they'll occur fast enough to reverse the damage being done to this planet that will inevitably render it inhospitable.




Well I certainly agree psychedelics might help a lot of humans lead more fulfilling and peaceful lives. I do have a hard time getting around the idea that we seem to have very limited if any free will ultimately. When I think of coming to a fork in the road that both end up at home it's always some connection to a feeling/emotional state that determines which one I take that day. I always seem to connect them to memories of other times I choose a particular route and that seems to coincide with how I'm feeling at the moment and that seems to coincide with what I've been thinking about previously.

Now if I'm tripping when I hit that fork in the road I might just choose differently but I guess it's still informed by my past experience.

But in the end I wonder how much it matters? It feels like a free will choice at the time as long as I don't dwell on it. :lol:

In the end I'll say I'm not completely sure but lean towards no free will. But I can't say I'm completely confident of that guess but I'm getting more comfortable with it each year. 

Really this is one of those topics that fall into the category of ultimately unanswerable questions. And while fun I don't think it matters much on a practical level. 

I went on and on like this repeating the same thing in different ways to take up air time on our radio program. :lol: You might have noticed I rarely give more than a couple of short paragraphs to any response usually. Most things of importance can be best communicated in such a fashion imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19360541 - 01/02/14 08:16 PM (10 years, 28 days ago)

That's really not how I think about free will.  To me, it means I live by my own wishes, unconstrained by society.  It means to me when I come to a fork in the road, I take the route that I find some significance in taking, not picking a road due to societal pressures to follow a trend, which is why I think people get so fucked up to begin with.  Ironically, that road might just feel something like destiny. 

Do as thou wilt.

So when all_this_beauty says it's not your biological destiny to be a saint (which imho is just somebody with the capacity to be kind, decent, fair to others and oneself), I'll always happily chime in to say that's a load of shit.  We all have potentiality to follow our hearts, that is awakening, not being rocketed out of your body on a high dose and coming back rambling about how you saw anything and everything all at once /golfclap.  With the right set and setting, psychedelics can be invaluable to those who realize they're fucked up because they've been conditioned with a sense of deep rooted shame in being themselves, that they are not enough as they are.  I think these drugs are for those who need healing.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19362020 - 01/03/14 03:30 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

IMO if you deny free will you deny that we're self aware.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19362308 - 01/03/14 07:31 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
IMO if you deny free will you deny that we're self aware.





Right, and that self-awareness is the ability to recognize oneself as an individual, separate from the environment and others.  Here in the West we're self aware without a doubt, but of course it's the source of our arrogance, megolomania, and deep rooted sense of total moral superiority to the rest of the natural order.  That's the fallacy of free will imo.

I do deny that free will, yet have a peculiar philosophy of there being alternative version  :shrug:.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Edited by CosmicJoke (01/03/14 07:32 AM)


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19362313 - 01/03/14 07:35 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

It is easy when you have no preferences


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19362461 - 01/03/14 08:47 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Really stretching for an argument.

Free Will:
Quote:

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.




If you don't think we have that, you're overthinking it. Sure there are certain things out of our control like our genetics and birthplace. But being self aware allows us to see what is happening and make changes. I can sit here all day and have many thoughts go through my head, it's my decision which thought to act on, not genetics's.


Edited by Thecrimson (01/03/14 09:02 AM)


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19362494 - 01/03/14 09:02 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

To me, it means I live by my own wishes, unconstrained by society.

No one does that though or can imo. You reflect the culture you were brought up in. You reflect the early experiences and teachings in your childhood. We are all constrained by society in uncountable ways.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19362500 - 01/03/14 09:04 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
To me, it means I live by my own wishes, unconstrained by society.

No one does that though or can imo. You reflect the culture you were brought up in. You reflect the early experiences and teachings in your childhood. We are all constrained by society in uncountable ways.




But we have the ability to change the ways those things influence us once we are aware of them. So they don't hold ultimate authority over us. We can even alter the way our genetics shape us nowadays.
It seems people just have their own definitions of free will.

But again, this isn't the topic of this thread.


Edited by Thecrimson (01/03/14 09:06 AM)


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19362528 - 01/03/14 09:12 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

But they do imo. Everything "new" we create was built off of past experience and knowledge. The influence is always there informing the future action. You cannot go in a radically different direction. I'm not sure we could even imagine one.

I've often heard it said that most humanity would like to be loving and caring and non oppressive with each other but it never seems to happen. It's not because we don't want it imo. It's because we can't act outside of our paradigm if that's the correct word. We are always reflecting our animal/primitive nature. If I had free will I would certainly not act in many of the ways I do often.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19362540 - 01/03/14 09:19 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Not being able to control yourself mentally isn't a lack of free will, though. It's just a lack of self control, because you DO have the ability. It seems like it's not as black and white as saying yes we do or no we don't. To me basically what you're saying sounds like, a monkey can't morph into a bird because he's a monkey. It sounds like your version of free will would be for people to be whatever they want to.

To me no free will is basically a robot, only able to do what it's programmed to do. We're self aware, robots aren't that's what's different. We can see what we were programmed to do and do the opposite if we choose so.


Edited by Thecrimson (01/03/14 09:20 AM)


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19362589 - 01/03/14 09:41 AM (10 years, 28 days ago)

Yes, that's a difference, but beyond that I still tend to believe that all your choices are predetermined by past events. To me that's not free. I think the best we have is the feeling of freedom of choice.  And like I said ultimately it doesn't matter one way or the other. I'm going to do what I do whether I have free will or not.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19362987 - 01/03/14 11:34 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Yes, that's a difference, but beyond that I still tend to believe that all your choices are predetermined by past events. To me that's not free. I think the best we have is the feeling of freedom of choice.  And like I said ultimately it doesn't matter one way or the other. I'm going to do what I do whether I have free will or not.




Give me an example. Like I said before, it may be influenced but not mandated by past events. Because we have the power to change the decision. If I yelled 'roast beef' right now, would that be mandated by past events? Was it my fate to yell that to noone?


Edited by Thecrimson (01/03/14 11:34 AM)


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19363226 - 01/03/14 12:34 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
To me, it means I live by my own wishes, unconstrained by society.

No one does that though or can imo. You reflect the culture you were brought up in. You reflect the early experiences and teachings in your childhood. We are all constrained by society in uncountable ways.




Taken out of context of my post, you're able to apply a new meaning.  It's not that I don't have a cultural map, or that I'm not a summation of all my past experiences.  All of my passions are quite a product of the culture I was raised in - everything from science fiction, mythology, riddles, and puzzles I got from my older brother at an early age.  Freedom is not about changing all of that, so that what I'm passionate about is not longer a product of my environment, it's about dropping out of all the shit that I was disinterested in and pressured into, that has made me miserable.  That's my barometer for freedom.  Turn on, Tune In, Drop Out.  Clearly you see freedom as one's history not influencing one's choices in the moment.  It's an impossible requirement to meet, so if you're right and that's what free will is, you win :shrug:.  For me it's being free of social and mental constraints that are a diversion from doing what I actually enjoy.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Edited by CosmicJoke (01/03/14 12:55 PM)


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19364494 - 01/03/14 05:17 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Yes, that's a difference, but beyond that I still tend to believe that all your choices are predetermined by past events. To me that's not free. I think the best we have is the feeling of freedom of choice.  And like I said ultimately it doesn't matter one way or the other. I'm going to do what I do whether I have free will or not.




Give me an example. Like I said before, it may be influenced but not mandated by past events. Because we have the power to change the decision. If I yelled 'roast beef' right now, would that be mandated by past events? Was it my fate to yell that to noone?




You just gave an example. I do think you said what you said due to all the events of your past. Of course it would be impossible to prove. That's why it hardly matters.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19364518 - 01/03/14 05:19 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
To me, it means I live by my own wishes, unconstrained by society.

No one does that though or can imo. You reflect the culture you were brought up in. You reflect the early experiences and teachings in your childhood. We are all constrained by society in uncountable ways.




Taken out of context of my post, you're able to apply a new meaning.  It's not that I don't have a cultural map, or that I'm not a summation of all my past experiences.  All of my passions are quite a product of the culture I was raised in - everything from science fiction, mythology, riddles, and puzzles I got from my older brother at an early age.  Freedom is not about changing all of that, so that what I'm passionate about is not longer a product of my environment, it's about dropping out of all the shit that I was disinterested in and pressured into, that has made me miserable.  That's my barometer for freedom.  Turn on, Tune In, Drop Out.  Clearly you see freedom as one's history not influencing one's choices in the moment.  It's an impossible requirement to meet, so if you're right and that's what free will is, you win :shrug:.  For me it's being free of social and mental constraints that are a diversion from doing what I actually enjoy.




OK I win, but I don't even think you win on the level you are speaking of. Culture will always win.  You are never going to be free of social and mental constraints imo. They may morph to a degree but that is all.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19364571 - 01/03/14 05:28 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Could you make a different jabber thread? You are doodling your jabber and I do not knownhow to stop you from putting this tread in my treadlist.. it is not wayyyy off track, but a little.. I do not really want to put you on ignore..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19364793 - 01/03/14 06:01 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
Could you make a different jabber thread? You are doodling your jabber and I do not knownhow to stop you from putting this tread in my treadlist.. it is not wayyyy off track, but a little.. I do not really want to put you on ignore..




It's up to you to direct the tone of your thread, but it's not by telling people what to do.  That's not the way forums work.  Put up some more relevant thought for us to discuss, and we'll probably go with it... Otherwise, they will evolve in whatever direction we find interesting. :sorry:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19364823 - 01/03/14 06:09 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
OK I win, but I don't even think you win on the level you are speaking of. Culture will always win.  You are never going to be free of social and mental constraints imo. They may morph to a degree but that is all.




When they morph to a degree that I spend most of my time doing the things that interest me,  I no longer feel burdened by them.  That's freedom.  What you call a constraint, merely grounds me.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19364829 - 01/03/14 06:11 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Thank you.. that was indeed enlightening. Such honesty is a rare commodety these days..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19365123 - 01/03/14 07:00 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
Could you make a different jabber thread? You are doodling your jabber and I do not knownhow to stop you from putting this tread in my treadlist.. it is not wayyyy off track, but a little.. I do not really want to put you on ignore..





:ass: I'd love for you to put me on ignore.  I have no use for you anyway. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19365130 - 01/03/14 07:01 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

That was not nice.. sitting here with tears in my eyes man.. totally uncalled for..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19365132 - 01/03/14 07:01 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
OK I win, but I don't even think you win on the level you are speaking of. Culture will always win.  You are never going to be free of social and mental constraints imo. They may morph to a degree but that is all.




When they morph to a degree that I spend most of my time doing the things that interest me,  I no longer feel burdened by them.  That's freedom.  What you call a constraint, merely grounds me.





It's not freedom. It's you feeling good. That's it.

Of course that's plenty imo. :thumbup:

I'm the same. I love doing certain things. It hardly means I'm free however.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19365139 - 01/03/14 07:03 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
That was not nice.. sitting here with tears in my eyes man.. totally uncalled for..




But you did call for it and I responded.


Maybe you haven't noticed but side conversations go on in all threads. Just go around it if you don't want to go there. Nobody seems to care about your OP at this time however. :nicesmile:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19365182 - 01/03/14 07:10 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
OK I win, but I don't even think you win on the level you are speaking of. Culture will always win.  You are never going to be free of social and mental constraints imo. They may morph to a degree but that is all.




When they morph to a degree that I spend most of my time doing the things that interest me,  I no longer feel burdened by them.  That's freedom.  What you call a constraint, merely grounds me.





It's not freedom. It's you feeling good. That's it.

Of course that's plenty imo. :thumbup:

I'm the same. I love doing certain things. It hardly means I'm free however.




When I'm capable of experiencing sensations, emotions, and thoughts are as I want them, precisely what is a hindrance to me?


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19365192 - 01/03/14 07:13 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

I can walk down to the refrigerator right now and grab a carrot. Does that make me free?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19365276 - 01/03/14 07:28 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I can walk down to the refrigerator right now and grab a carrot. Does that make me free?




Maybe, depends on your motives.  A lot of people eat to allay anxiety, they're still quite miserable though.  Tons of different psychological models out there for motivational centers and where people get stuck, 8 circuit theory, chakras, etc.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19365439 - 01/03/14 07:55 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

What if I'm just hungry?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19365459 - 01/03/14 07:58 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Do as thou wilt, you're qualitatively more free in regards to eating carrots than many others.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19365505 - 01/03/14 08:08 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Well then we're all FREE as birds to follow our instinct for self preservation.  :lol:

Well this question can't be resolved conclusively imo. You've presented your best case and I mine.  I think you might be right but I think I might too. We may have to leave it at that.  :nicesmile:  Been fun chatting though.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19365810 - 01/03/14 09:12 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well then we're all FREE as birds to follow our instinct for self preservation.  :lol:





Sure, but from what I recall you like to cook.  Maybe you'd have more fun taking those carrots and creating a well plated salad or a soufflé, Icelander style. :strokebeard:

Quote:

Been fun chatting though.





You bet, been a pleasure. :smile:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19367119 - 01/04/14 07:40 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Thecrimson said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Yes, that's a difference, but beyond that I still tend to believe that all your choices are predetermined by past events. To me that's not free. I think the best we have is the feeling of freedom of choice.  And like I said ultimately it doesn't matter one way or the other. I'm going to do what I do whether I have free will or not.




Give me an example. Like I said before, it may be influenced but not mandated by past events. Because we have the power to change the decision. If I yelled 'roast beef' right now, would that be mandated by past events? Was it my fate to yell that to noone?




You just gave an example. I do think you said what you said due to all the events of your past. Of course it would be impossible to prove. That's why it hardly matters.




I haven't heard you say how though. Just because I end up doing it doesn't mean I didn't have a choice.


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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19367337 - 01/04/14 09:25 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

I've explained my line of reasoning all through this thread and I finished with this admission Of course it would be impossible to prove.

I've never claimed I know we don't have free will, but by how I define the term I don't see that we do. :shrug:

It certainly seems like free will when I'm craving that pickel and go down to the fridge and grab one but then I remember the first time I tried to eat one as a kid. :tongue2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSse
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19367754 - 01/04/14 11:47 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
Does noone listen to me? Bad vibes, men.

The world is really fucked up, and there are contradictions in everything.. Be abliss! Why? Because it feals nice.





whatchu been sayin


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19367797 - 01/04/14 11:57 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
I think you're taking the term free will too literally. Obviously some things are predestined, it really is pretty meaningless. You're basically saying, 'if I was that person, I'd be him'. Well no shit.





indeed but in my experience people don't consider that often. Especially when caught in judgment or thinking a person is better then another, or whatever else. I try to bring that consideration with me always because as it appears it is only the luck of the draw that places me where I am and them where they are... no reason to judge, only empathize and try to bring compassion along with me no matter the scenario.

it seems to me to be all predestined in a sense... where's the wiggle room? Your current moment/build is the sum of your past moments/build


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (01/04/14 11:59 AM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Sse]
    #19368019 - 01/04/14 12:40 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

here's a little excerpt from a RAW post I like:

"Karma, in the original Buddhist scriptures, is a blind machine; in fact, it is functionally identical with the scientific concept of natural law. Sentimental ethical ideas about justice being built into the machine, so that those who do evil in one life are punished for it in another life, were added later by theologians reasoning from their own moralistic prejudices. Buddha simply indicated that all the cruelties and injustices of the past are still active: their effects are always being felt. Similarly, he explained, all the good of the past, all the kindness and patience and love of decent people is also still being felt.
Since most humans are still controlled by fairly robotic reflexes, the bad energy of the past far outweighs the good, and the tendency of the wheel is to keep moving in the same terrible direction, violence breeding more violence, hatred breeding more hatred, war breeding more war. The only way to "stop the wheel" is to stop it inside yourself, by giving up bad energy and concentrating on the positive. This is by no means easy, but once you understand what Gurdjieff called "the horror of our situation," you have no choice but to try, and to keep on trying."

http://www.deepleafproductions.com/wilsonlibrary/texts/raw-karma.html

and another from Undoing Yourself by Christopher S. Hyatt

"The fool neither forgives nor forgets; The half-enlightened forgive and forget; The Sufi forgives but does not forget."
That is, Sufism and other Hermetic traditions recognize that robots will behave like robots, and does not "blame" them, but it also does not forget, for a moment or even a nanosecond, that we are
living in a robotic world — "an armed madhouse""


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19368666 - 01/04/14 02:46 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Absolutlely excellent post dude? :mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSammysong
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Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 584
Loc: Idios kosmos
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19368940 - 01/04/14 03:53 PM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Nice post, CJ.


My thoughts on the robots recognizing themselves as robots.

The body is just another object. As other objects, the body is made out of our experiencing of it. There is nothing else to the body other than the colors that make up our seeing of it, the body sensations that make up our feeling of it, and the hearing, smelling and tasting of it. The cells, blood vessels and muscles we think constitutes our body are themselves nothing but colors and sensations.

Look at your hand for example. This particular pattern of color (which is nothing but seeing) is thought of (conceptualized) as “a hand” – but there is a massive conceptual structure of delusion that is attached to our notion of “a hand”, and its foundation is the belief in the external world. We believe that the hand exists whether it is experienced or not, but what a hand is, is the seeing of it. Turn the attention away from it and your hand ceases to exist. Our entire body is like that: entirely created in thought. It comes into existence the moment we think of it as such. Prior to that, there is just a field of pure experiencing.

The conceptual structure that make up our notion of the body is very heavy. It contains so much false beliefs and presuppositions that to untangle this structure and see the falseness of it is a massive undertaking. But it can be done.


--------------------


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Offlinemagicmushroombudha
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Sammysong]
    #19371121 - 01/05/14 01:38 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Enligtenment is simply when you:

Have the experience of Nirvana.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Or less more, less, less


Edited by magicmushroombudha (07/21/14 03:21 AM)


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OfflineCupCup
Stranger
Registered: 01/05/14
Posts: 6
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
    #19371297 - 01/05/14 03:34 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

Enlightenment is:

-the removal of the sense of being other than That.
-returning to being as the aware foundation of existence.
-discovering that this is not a seer or an individual soul with an inherent substance, but the emptiness itself.

Like a fire burns wood, So enlightenment burns the ego. There is a fire burning hot while the ego is going. But when it is gone the Silence of pure self remains unattached, un-expecting, and happy in it's own nature.

This dissolution of the ego-soul ends karma since there is no action or doer-ship.

It is the supreme surrender to the Self in all selves. Then there is no one enlightened or unenlightened. It is the stateless, and effortless state. It is from the single eye that sees the two eyes. It is not what can be seen in the eyes or heard in the ears, smelled, tasted, or touched, but from the Heart that knows of these and contains the universe. It is merging back into the heart, like an ice cube melting into the ocean.

You are awareness. Stay as that only and do not touch any thought. Then you are free in one instant of time . . .
becasue you have always been free and cannot be bound.
But the game continues for each 'individual' until they reach sufficient maturity to see it. And it is said that when the student is ready, the teacher arrives. And the teachers job is to make the teacher and student disappear by reminding the student that he is everything there ever could be.

Thats one way to describe it.


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19377276 - 01/06/14 01:36 PM (10 years, 24 days ago)



Time has slipped away
Oh, look at all the years gone by.
You say I may have might lost my way
Oh, but I'm on my way to here.

Oh lift up your eyes and see
Your humility
Go on, lift up your eyes and see
Your humility

Yet thinking it's on my way to go
You will meet them on the way you're going through
Yet thinking it's in my way to go
Well, you will need them on the way you're going through

Oh, lift up your head and wonder why
you are the only one to carry out to storm
throughout your life, it's time for you to find your way

Your mind again
Oh, oh, oh your world again (x 2)

You're thinking freely
Rock it slowly
Dancing widely
Some will take it lightly

But them see them see,
rebirth, rebirth, rebirth, is my answer
and I reserve the jewel
rebirth, rebirth, rebirth, rebirth
I'm not gonna serve for you

No one seize up your writing places
every now and then you come to study the places
When one looks into the system of men
We are ruled by the knife, and we are fooled by the plan

Oh lift up your eyes and see
Your humility
Go on, lift your head and wonder why
Oh lift up your eyes and see
Your humility
Go on, lift your head and know
you're not the only one

Your mind again
Oh, oh, oh your world again (x 2)

Rock it, rock it, man still always
Everyone is talking about the last of days
No one looks like they are still from this land
Everyone thinks they are, new on the sideline

Who, what, what, what, what, what they do x4

I want you to see, I want you to know
This must be the place, you got to be sure
You want to be real, you must lead to shore
this is the only way, this is the only road

Oh lift up your eyes and see
Your humility
Go on, lift your head and wonder why
why am I the only one

Oh lift up your eyes and see
Your humility
Go on, lift your head and wonder
how am I the only one
Don't tell me that again,
I'm the only one

Don't tell me that again,
I'm the only one

Please don't tell me that again,
I'm the only one
No don't tell me that again




ALL IN ONE, ONE IN ALL




--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (01/06/14 02:05 PM)


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