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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19364823 - 01/03/14 06:09 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: OK I win, but I don't even think you win on the level you are speaking of. Culture will always win. You are never going to be free of social and mental constraints imo. They may morph to a degree but that is all.
When they morph to a degree that I spend most of my time doing the things that interest me, I no longer feel burdened by them. That's freedom. What you call a constraint, merely grounds me.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Icyus
KavitārkikasiṃHa



Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
Last seen: 8 years, 27 days
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19364829 - 01/03/14 06:11 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Thank you.. that was indeed enlightening. Such honesty is a rare commodety these days..
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
#19365123 - 01/03/14 07:00 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icyus said: Could you make a different jabber thread? You are doodling your jabber and I do not knownhow to stop you from putting this tread in my treadlist.. it is not wayyyy off track, but a little.. I do not really want to put you on ignore..
I'd love for you to put me on ignore. I have no use for you anyway.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icyus
KavitārkikasiṃHa



Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
Last seen: 8 years, 27 days
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19365130 - 01/03/14 07:01 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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That was not nice.. sitting here with tears in my eyes man.. totally uncalled for..
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19365132 - 01/03/14 07:01 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said:
Quote:
Icelander said: OK I win, but I don't even think you win on the level you are speaking of. Culture will always win. You are never going to be free of social and mental constraints imo. They may morph to a degree but that is all.
When they morph to a degree that I spend most of my time doing the things that interest me, I no longer feel burdened by them. That's freedom. What you call a constraint, merely grounds me.
It's not freedom. It's you feeling good. That's it.
Of course that's plenty imo. 
I'm the same. I love doing certain things. It hardly means I'm free however.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
#19365139 - 01/03/14 07:03 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icyus said: That was not nice.. sitting here with tears in my eyes man.. totally uncalled for..
But you did call for it and I responded.

Maybe you haven't noticed but side conversations go on in all threads. Just go around it if you don't want to go there. Nobody seems to care about your OP at this time however.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19365182 - 01/03/14 07:10 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
CosmicJoke said:
Quote:
Icelander said: OK I win, but I don't even think you win on the level you are speaking of. Culture will always win. You are never going to be free of social and mental constraints imo. They may morph to a degree but that is all.
When they morph to a degree that I spend most of my time doing the things that interest me, I no longer feel burdened by them. That's freedom. What you call a constraint, merely grounds me.
It's not freedom. It's you feeling good. That's it.
Of course that's plenty imo. 
I'm the same. I love doing certain things. It hardly means I'm free however.
When I'm capable of experiencing sensations, emotions, and thoughts are as I want them, precisely what is a hindrance to me?
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19365192 - 01/03/14 07:13 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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I can walk down to the refrigerator right now and grab a carrot. Does that make me free?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19365276 - 01/03/14 07:28 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I can walk down to the refrigerator right now and grab a carrot. Does that make me free?
Maybe, depends on your motives. A lot of people eat to allay anxiety, they're still quite miserable though. Tons of different psychological models out there for motivational centers and where people get stuck, 8 circuit theory, chakras, etc.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19365439 - 01/03/14 07:55 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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What if I'm just hungry?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19365459 - 01/03/14 07:58 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Do as thou wilt, you're qualitatively more free in regards to eating carrots than many others.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19365505 - 01/03/14 08:08 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Well then we're all FREE as birds to follow our instinct for self preservation. 
Well this question can't be resolved conclusively imo. You've presented your best case and I mine. I think you might be right but I think I might too. We may have to leave it at that. Been fun chatting though.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19365810 - 01/03/14 09:12 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Well then we're all FREE as birds to follow our instinct for self preservation. 
Sure, but from what I recall you like to cook. Maybe you'd have more fun taking those carrots and creating a well plated salad or a soufflé, Icelander style. 
Quote:
Been fun chatting though.
You bet, been a pleasure.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Thecrimson
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/13
Posts: 142
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19367119 - 01/04/14 07:40 AM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Thecrimson said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Yes, that's a difference, but beyond that I still tend to believe that all your choices are predetermined by past events. To me that's not free. I think the best we have is the feeling of freedom of choice. And like I said ultimately it doesn't matter one way or the other. I'm going to do what I do whether I have free will or not.
Give me an example. Like I said before, it may be influenced but not mandated by past events. Because we have the power to change the decision. If I yelled 'roast beef' right now, would that be mandated by past events? Was it my fate to yell that to noone?
You just gave an example. I do think you said what you said due to all the events of your past. Of course it would be impossible to prove. That's why it hardly matters.
I haven't heard you say how though. Just because I end up doing it doesn't mean I didn't have a choice.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
#19367337 - 01/04/14 09:25 AM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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I've explained my line of reasoning all through this thread and I finished with this admission Of course it would be impossible to prove.
I've never claimed I know we don't have free will, but by how I define the term I don't see that we do. 
It certainly seems like free will when I'm craving that pickel and go down to the fridge and grab one but then I remember the first time I tried to eat one as a kid.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
#19367754 - 01/04/14 11:47 AM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icyus said: Does noone listen to me? Bad vibes, men.
The world is really fucked up, and there are contradictions in everything.. Be abliss! Why? Because it feals nice.
whatchu been sayin
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Sse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
#19367797 - 01/04/14 11:57 AM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Thecrimson said: I think you're taking the term free will too literally. Obviously some things are predestined, it really is pretty meaningless. You're basically saying, 'if I was that person, I'd be him'. Well no shit.
indeed but in my experience people don't consider that often. Especially when caught in judgment or thinking a person is better then another, or whatever else. I try to bring that consideration with me always because as it appears it is only the luck of the draw that places me where I am and them where they are... no reason to judge, only empathize and try to bring compassion along with me no matter the scenario.
it seems to me to be all predestined in a sense... where's the wiggle room? Your current moment/build is the sum of your past moments/build
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (01/04/14 11:59 AM)
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Sse]
#19368019 - 01/04/14 12:40 PM (10 years, 26 days ago) |
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here's a little excerpt from a RAW post I like:
"Karma, in the original Buddhist scriptures, is a blind machine; in fact, it is functionally identical with the scientific concept of natural law. Sentimental ethical ideas about justice being built into the machine, so that those who do evil in one life are punished for it in another life, were added later by theologians reasoning from their own moralistic prejudices. Buddha simply indicated that all the cruelties and injustices of the past are still active: their effects are always being felt. Similarly, he explained, all the good of the past, all the kindness and patience and love of decent people is also still being felt. Since most humans are still controlled by fairly robotic reflexes, the bad energy of the past far outweighs the good, and the tendency of the wheel is to keep moving in the same terrible direction, violence breeding more violence, hatred breeding more hatred, war breeding more war. The only way to "stop the wheel" is to stop it inside yourself, by giving up bad energy and concentrating on the positive. This is by no means easy, but once you understand what Gurdjieff called "the horror of our situation," you have no choice but to try, and to keep on trying."
http://www.deepleafproductions.com/wilsonlibrary/texts/raw-karma.html
and another from Undoing Yourself by Christopher S. Hyatt
"The fool neither forgives nor forgets; The half-enlightened forgive and forget; The Sufi forgives but does not forget." That is, Sufism and other Hermetic traditions recognize that robots will behave like robots, and does not "blame" them, but it also does not forget, for a moment or even a nanosecond, that we are living in a robotic world — "an armed madhouse""
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19368666 - 01/04/14 02:46 PM (10 years, 26 days ago) |
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Absolutlely excellent post dude?    
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sammysong
Dreamer



Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 584
Loc: Idios kosmos
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19368940 - 01/04/14 03:53 PM (10 years, 26 days ago) |
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Nice post, CJ.
My thoughts on the robots recognizing themselves as robots.
The body is just another object. As other objects, the body is made out of our experiencing of it. There is nothing else to the body other than the colors that make up our seeing of it, the body sensations that make up our feeling of it, and the hearing, smelling and tasting of it. The cells, blood vessels and muscles we think constitutes our body are themselves nothing but colors and sensations.
Look at your hand for example. This particular pattern of color (which is nothing but seeing) is thought of (conceptualized) as “a hand” – but there is a massive conceptual structure of delusion that is attached to our notion of “a hand”, and its foundation is the belief in the external world. We believe that the hand exists whether it is experienced or not, but what a hand is, is the seeing of it. Turn the attention away from it and your hand ceases to exist. Our entire body is like that: entirely created in thought. It comes into existence the moment we think of it as such. Prior to that, there is just a field of pure experiencing.
The conceptual structure that make up our notion of the body is very heavy. It contains so much false beliefs and presuppositions that to untangle this structure and see the falseness of it is a massive undertaking. But it can be done.
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