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DiMiTRi iNFiNiTY
Psychoactive Paratrooper



Registered: 01/01/14
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Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19359669 - 01/02/14 05:07 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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I think of it as a personal understanding of life, love, the universe, and a relief from all things stressful and binding on one's (singular) line of thought. A deeper peace than can only be accepted by someone who has no further questions.
-------------------- The understanding from which only the most enlightened of people possess is the key to evolution beyond this physical reality.
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19359871 - 01/02/14 05:43 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Everything you eat changes your brain chemistry in some subtle way. Eat nothing but sugar and junk and you'll see what I mean. But something motivated you to take such things and that cannot be pushed away. If a drug changes you then it still wasn't your free will. IMO.
I don't disagree with either of these statements. As I had said, we all start off mechanical robots, but I think for the vast majority of us it is not our genetics that are inhibiting us from experiencing unconditioned states of consciousness / taking on new, freer imprints. It's not even bad imprints from childhood traumas that's stopping us, though that will certainly complicate the process, and some may need a well planned out trip session with a psychedelic psychotherapist or shaman. The problem is these resources aren't readily available on a cultural level, they're not culturally valued. That could change, and some positive changes are slowly happening in my estimation, but I'm not overly optimistic that they'll occur fast enough to reverse the damage being done to this planet that will inevitably render it inhospitable.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19359904 - 01/02/14 05:50 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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You and Ice should have a radio station discussing topics like this
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19360113 - 01/02/14 06:36 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Everything you eat changes your brain chemistry in some subtle way. Eat nothing but sugar and junk and you'll see what I mean. But something motivated you to take such things and that cannot be pushed away. If a drug changes you then it still wasn't your free will. IMO.
I don't disagree with either of these statements. As I had said, we all start off mechanical robots, but I think for the vast majority of us it is not our genetics that are inhibiting us from experiencing unconditioned states of consciousness / taking on new, freer imprints. It's not even bad imprints from childhood traumas that's stopping us, though that will certainly complicate the process, and some may need a well planned out trip session with a psychedelic psychotherapist or shaman. The problem is these resources aren't readily available on a cultural level, they're not culturally valued. That could change, and some positive changes are slowly happening in my estimation, but I'm not overly optimistic that they'll occur fast enough to reverse the damage being done to this planet that will inevitably render it inhospitable.
Well I certainly agree psychedelics might help a lot of humans lead more fulfilling and peaceful lives. I do have a hard time getting around the idea that we seem to have very limited if any free will ultimately. When I think of coming to a fork in the road that both end up at home it's always some connection to a feeling/emotional state that determines which one I take that day. I always seem to connect them to memories of other times I choose a particular route and that seems to coincide with how I'm feeling at the moment and that seems to coincide with what I've been thinking about previously.
Now if I'm tripping when I hit that fork in the road I might just choose differently but I guess it's still informed by my past experience.
But in the end I wonder how much it matters? It feels like a free will choice at the time as long as I don't dwell on it. 
In the end I'll say I'm not completely sure but lean towards no free will. But I can't say I'm completely confident of that guess but I'm getting more comfortable with it each year.
Really this is one of those topics that fall into the category of ultimately unanswerable questions. And while fun I don't think it matters much on a practical level.
I went on and on like this repeating the same thing in different ways to take up air time on our radio program. You might have noticed I rarely give more than a couple of short paragraphs to any response usually. Most things of importance can be best communicated in such a fashion imo.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19360541 - 01/02/14 08:16 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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That's really not how I think about free will. To me, it means I live by my own wishes, unconstrained by society. It means to me when I come to a fork in the road, I take the route that I find some significance in taking, not picking a road due to societal pressures to follow a trend, which is why I think people get so fucked up to begin with. Ironically, that road might just feel something like destiny.
Do as thou wilt.
So when all_this_beauty says it's not your biological destiny to be a saint (which imho is just somebody with the capacity to be kind, decent, fair to others and oneself), I'll always happily chime in to say that's a load of shit. We all have potentiality to follow our hearts, that is awakening, not being rocketed out of your body on a high dose and coming back rambling about how you saw anything and everything all at once /golfclap. With the right set and setting, psychedelics can be invaluable to those who realize they're fucked up because they've been conditioned with a sense of deep rooted shame in being themselves, that they are not enough as they are. I think these drugs are for those who need healing.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Thecrimson
Stranger
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19362020 - 01/03/14 03:30 AM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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IMO if you deny free will you deny that we're self aware.
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
#19362308 - 01/03/14 07:31 AM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Thecrimson said: IMO if you deny free will you deny that we're self aware.
Right, and that self-awareness is the ability to recognize oneself as an individual, separate from the environment and others. Here in the West we're self aware without a doubt, but of course it's the source of our arrogance, megolomania, and deep rooted sense of total moral superiority to the rest of the natural order. That's the fallacy of free will imo.
I do deny that free will, yet have a peculiar philosophy of there being alternative version .
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
Edited by CosmicJoke (01/03/14 07:32 AM)
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 33,241
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
#19362313 - 01/03/14 07:35 AM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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It is easy when you have no preferences
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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Thecrimson
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/13
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Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Really stretching for an argument.
Free Will:
Quote:
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
If you don't think we have that, you're overthinking it. Sure there are certain things out of our control like our genetics and birthplace. But being self aware allows us to see what is happening and make changes. I can sit here all day and have many thoughts go through my head, it's my decision which thought to act on, not genetics's.
Edited by Thecrimson (01/03/14 09:02 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19362494 - 01/03/14 09:02 AM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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To me, it means I live by my own wishes, unconstrained by society.
No one does that though or can imo. You reflect the culture you were brought up in. You reflect the early experiences and teachings in your childhood. We are all constrained by society in uncountable ways.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Thecrimson
Stranger
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19362500 - 01/03/14 09:04 AM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: To me, it means I live by my own wishes, unconstrained by society.
No one does that though or can imo. You reflect the culture you were brought up in. You reflect the early experiences and teachings in your childhood. We are all constrained by society in uncountable ways.
But we have the ability to change the ways those things influence us once we are aware of them. So they don't hold ultimate authority over us. We can even alter the way our genetics shape us nowadays. It seems people just have their own definitions of free will.
But again, this isn't the topic of this thread.
Edited by Thecrimson (01/03/14 09:06 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
#19362528 - 01/03/14 09:12 AM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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But they do imo. Everything "new" we create was built off of past experience and knowledge. The influence is always there informing the future action. You cannot go in a radically different direction. I'm not sure we could even imagine one.
I've often heard it said that most humanity would like to be loving and caring and non oppressive with each other but it never seems to happen. It's not because we don't want it imo. It's because we can't act outside of our paradigm if that's the correct word. We are always reflecting our animal/primitive nature. If I had free will I would certainly not act in many of the ways I do often.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Thecrimson
Stranger
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19362540 - 01/03/14 09:19 AM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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Not being able to control yourself mentally isn't a lack of free will, though. It's just a lack of self control, because you DO have the ability. It seems like it's not as black and white as saying yes we do or no we don't. To me basically what you're saying sounds like, a monkey can't morph into a bird because he's a monkey. It sounds like your version of free will would be for people to be whatever they want to.
To me no free will is basically a robot, only able to do what it's programmed to do. We're self aware, robots aren't that's what's different. We can see what we were programmed to do and do the opposite if we choose so.
Edited by Thecrimson (01/03/14 09:20 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
#19362589 - 01/03/14 09:41 AM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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Yes, that's a difference, but beyond that I still tend to believe that all your choices are predetermined by past events. To me that's not free. I think the best we have is the feeling of freedom of choice. And like I said ultimately it doesn't matter one way or the other. I'm going to do what I do whether I have free will or not.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Thecrimson
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/13
Posts: 142
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19362987 - 01/03/14 11:34 AM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Yes, that's a difference, but beyond that I still tend to believe that all your choices are predetermined by past events. To me that's not free. I think the best we have is the feeling of freedom of choice. And like I said ultimately it doesn't matter one way or the other. I'm going to do what I do whether I have free will or not.
Give me an example. Like I said before, it may be influenced but not mandated by past events. Because we have the power to change the decision. If I yelled 'roast beef' right now, would that be mandated by past events? Was it my fate to yell that to noone?
Edited by Thecrimson (01/03/14 11:34 AM)
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19363226 - 01/03/14 12:34 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: To me, it means I live by my own wishes, unconstrained by society.
No one does that though or can imo. You reflect the culture you were brought up in. You reflect the early experiences and teachings in your childhood. We are all constrained by society in uncountable ways.
Taken out of context of my post, you're able to apply a new meaning. It's not that I don't have a cultural map, or that I'm not a summation of all my past experiences. All of my passions are quite a product of the culture I was raised in - everything from science fiction, mythology, riddles, and puzzles I got from my older brother at an early age. Freedom is not about changing all of that, so that what I'm passionate about is not longer a product of my environment, it's about dropping out of all the shit that I was disinterested in and pressured into, that has made me miserable. That's my barometer for freedom. Turn on, Tune In, Drop Out. Clearly you see freedom as one's history not influencing one's choices in the moment. It's an impossible requirement to meet, so if you're right and that's what free will is, you win . For me it's being free of social and mental constraints that are a diversion from doing what I actually enjoy.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
Edited by CosmicJoke (01/03/14 12:55 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
#19364494 - 01/03/14 05:17 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Thecrimson said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Yes, that's a difference, but beyond that I still tend to believe that all your choices are predetermined by past events. To me that's not free. I think the best we have is the feeling of freedom of choice. And like I said ultimately it doesn't matter one way or the other. I'm going to do what I do whether I have free will or not.
Give me an example. Like I said before, it may be influenced but not mandated by past events. Because we have the power to change the decision. If I yelled 'roast beef' right now, would that be mandated by past events? Was it my fate to yell that to noone?
You just gave an example. I do think you said what you said due to all the events of your past. Of course it would be impossible to prove. That's why it hardly matters.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19364518 - 01/03/14 05:19 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said:
Quote:
Icelander said: To me, it means I live by my own wishes, unconstrained by society.
No one does that though or can imo. You reflect the culture you were brought up in. You reflect the early experiences and teachings in your childhood. We are all constrained by society in uncountable ways.
Taken out of context of my post, you're able to apply a new meaning. It's not that I don't have a cultural map, or that I'm not a summation of all my past experiences. All of my passions are quite a product of the culture I was raised in - everything from science fiction, mythology, riddles, and puzzles I got from my older brother at an early age. Freedom is not about changing all of that, so that what I'm passionate about is not longer a product of my environment, it's about dropping out of all the shit that I was disinterested in and pressured into, that has made me miserable. That's my barometer for freedom. Turn on, Tune In, Drop Out. Clearly you see freedom as one's history not influencing one's choices in the moment. It's an impossible requirement to meet, so if you're right and that's what free will is, you win . For me it's being free of social and mental constraints that are a diversion from doing what I actually enjoy.
OK I win, but I don't even think you win on the level you are speaking of. Culture will always win. You are never going to be free of social and mental constraints imo. They may morph to a degree but that is all.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icyus
KavitārkikasiṃHa



Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19364571 - 01/03/14 05:28 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Could you make a different jabber thread? You are doodling your jabber and I do not knownhow to stop you from putting this tread in my treadlist.. it is not wayyyy off track, but a little.. I do not really want to put you on ignore..
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
#19364793 - 01/03/14 06:01 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icyus said: Could you make a different jabber thread? You are doodling your jabber and I do not knownhow to stop you from putting this tread in my treadlist.. it is not wayyyy off track, but a little.. I do not really want to put you on ignore..
It's up to you to direct the tone of your thread, but it's not by telling people what to do. That's not the way forums work. Put up some more relevant thought for us to discuss, and we'll probably go with it... Otherwise, they will evolve in whatever direction we find interesting.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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