|
Thecrimson
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/13
Posts: 142
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19356866 - 01/02/14 12:55 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
No you're just trying to pass off some psuedo poetic version of free will that's ultimately meaningless in the wrong thread.
|
Sammysong
Dreamer



Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 584
Loc: Idios kosmos
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
#19357060 - 01/02/14 02:07 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
We have created this artificial conceptual model of reality through which we interpret our experience. It’s built around this core belief that there is an objective universe out there in which we exist. And by looking through that lens, we divide what is nothing but pure subjectivity – seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting and thinking – into the subject we take to be ourself, and the objects that make up the world – and whereas their existence is solely conceptual, we believe them to be entirely real.
This model constitutes our captivity. To hold it for truth is ignorance. We need to investigate that model, to pull it apart and see if it will stand against logical scrutiny – it won't, of course, and by seeing through the beliefs that holds us in bondage we effectively place ourselves in the vicinity of awakening.
--------------------
|
cez

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Sammysong]
#19357079 - 01/02/14 02:16 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Enlightenment is a joke. Its something people strive for but its nothing special.
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icyus]
#19357148 - 01/02/14 02:48 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icyus said: I cannot really put my finger on what it really is.. .
Try on a koan - the sound of one hand clapping, the taste of your own tongue, point at the moon and mistake your finger for the moon etc. Five senses cannot sense the fact of your own existence. That's just a bunch of dead symbolic squabble that will probably confuse you more.
Go ahead and analyze the validity of models and where they all inevitably fall up short. While I must say it's fun, it's better yet go get your hands dirty and report back. Those reports too will fall up short, but they'll be a closer approximation from your vantage point IME.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
|
Thecrimson
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/13
Posts: 142
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: cez]
#19357158 - 01/02/14 02:55 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Another personal description of what it is.. It's only by the experiencing can you begin to understand it and more importantly what it implies.
Think of a graph
 You can mark points all over this thing. When even 1 point is left on the graph that is the point of focus. But remove all of the points and what are you left with? Just the graph, just the field that has the possibility for a nearly infinite amount of points. When the focus isn't on 1 specific thing, it's on all of them.The graph itself becomes 1 thing because it has no points on it to make anything separate.
Quote:
cez said: Enlightenment is a joke. Its something people strive for but its nothing special.
Hah no, it brings clarity to everything.
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
#19357167 - 01/02/14 03:00 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Thecrimson said: Another personal description of what it is.. It's only by the experiencing can you begin to understand it and more importantly what it implies.
Think of a graph
 You can mark points all over this thing. When even 1 point is left on the graph that is the point of focus. But remove all of the points and what are you left with? Just the graph, just the field that has the possibility for a nearly infinite amount of points. When the focus isn't on 1 specific thing, it's on all of them.The graph itself becomes 1 thing because it has no points on it to make anything separate.

Oh wait.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
|
cez

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
#19357169 - 01/02/14 03:00 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
To think anything of enlightenment is to throw a veil on it entirely.
I don't know this but suspect this.
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: cez]
#19357178 - 01/02/14 03:06 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
cez said: To think anything of enlightenment is to throw a veil on it entirely.
I don't know this but suspect this.
The piercing mind of prana may illuminate through the veil. The veil is still a veil, but can some light shine through, and further your own understanding? Maybe so, maybe not. Or sometimes yes, sometimes no.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
#19357680 - 01/02/14 09:30 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Thecrimson said: No you're just trying to pass off some psuedo poetic version of free will that's ultimately meaningless in the wrong thread.
All you're doing is spouting. You've never once explained your objections to what I've posted or provided evidence for it. You've not nothing but hot air. 
There's nothing poetic about my views on the subject. I see no real evidence for free will and I've explained why. Every act is influenced by a preceding act and that's not even considering genetics or cultural programming.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Thecrimson
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/13
Posts: 142
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19357707 - 01/02/14 09:39 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Thecrimson said: No you're just trying to pass off some psuedo poetic version of free will that's ultimately meaningless in the wrong thread.
All you're doing is spouting. You've never once explained your objections to what I've posted or provided evidence for it. You've not nothing but hot air. 
There's nothing poetic about my views on the subject. I see no real evidence for free will and I've explained why. Every act is influenced by a preceding act and that's not even considering genetics or cultural programming.
Yes, influenced, not mandated.
|
all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
#19357761 - 01/02/14 10:03 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Thecrimson said:
Quote:
Icelander said: There's nothing poetic about my views on the subject. I see no real evidence for free will and I've explained why. Every act is influenced by a preceding act and that's not even considering genetics or cultural programming.
Yes, influenced, not mandated.
Biologically speaking, there most definitely is a "mandate." I'm capable of discerning only what my brain permits me to discern. No leeway there. No wiggle room.
If I'm fated to be a wise and holy man, so be it. If I'm fated to live in a state of delusion, so be it. Really nothing I can do about it.
All my individual choices have their "roots" in my biology. Yes, environment matters, but only to encourage or discourage the manifestation of my biological destiny.
If I have the right genes and I was born to wealthy parents, I might go to an exclusive school and discover the cure for cancer. If I have the right genes and I was born into poverty, the odds are much smaller that my biological potential will be realized.
Control freaks freak out when they read stuff like this. Particularly Western control freaks who were raised in the Judeo-Christian "master of my fate" mindset, whereby you get to heaven only by doing and believing the "right things."
Ergo, "I have to be in charge, otherwise I may be doomed to eternal damnation."
|
Thecrimson
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/13
Posts: 142
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
|
I think you're taking the term free will too literally. Obviously some things are predestined, it really is pretty meaningless. You're basically saying, 'if I was that person, I'd be him'. Well no shit.
Edited by Thecrimson (01/02/14 10:16 AM)
|
all this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
#19357876 - 01/02/14 10:49 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Thecrimson said: I think you're taking the term free will too literally. Obviously some things are predestined, it really is pretty meaningless. You're basically saying, 'if I was that person, I'd be him'. Well no shit.
No, I'm saying "There's no problem with me being who I am, because that's what [nature / God / the Dao / destiny / whatever the fuck] has in mind for me."
Others may feel differently, but I happen to find the "predestination mindset" quite comforting, actually.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
#19357992 - 01/02/14 11:25 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Thecrimson said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Thecrimson said: No you're just trying to pass off some psuedo poetic version of free will that's ultimately meaningless in the wrong thread.
All you're doing is spouting. You've never once explained your objections to what I've posted or provided evidence for it. You've not nothing but hot air. 
There's nothing poetic about my views on the subject. I see no real evidence for free will and I've explained why. Every act is influenced by a preceding act and that's not even considering genetics or cultural programming.
Yes, influenced, not mandated.
Influenced IS mandated. Your mini responses say nothing imo.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
|
Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
Thecrimson said:
Quote:
Icelander said: There's nothing poetic about my views on the subject. I see no real evidence for free will and I've explained why. Every act is influenced by a preceding act and that's not even considering genetics or cultural programming.
Yes, influenced, not mandated.
Biologically speaking, there most definitely is a "mandate." I'm capable of discerning only what my brain permits me to discern. No leeway there. No wiggle room.
If I'm fated to be a wise and holy man, so be it. If I'm fated to live in a state of delusion, so be it. Really nothing I can do about it.
All my individual choices have their "roots" in my biology. Yes, environment matters, but only to encourage or discourage the manifestation of my biological destiny.
If I have the right genes and I was born to wealthy parents, I might go to an exclusive school and discover the cure for cancer. If I have the right genes and I was born into poverty, the odds are much smaller that my biological potential will be realized.
Control freaks freak out when they read stuff like this. Particularly Western control freaks who were raised in the Judeo-Christian "master of my fate" mindset, whereby you get to heaven only by doing and believing the "right things."
Ergo, "I have to be in charge, otherwise I may be doomed to eternal damnation."
I don't think you have it all wrong, Westerners do tend to have a delusional belief that humans are born with some sort of metaphysical free will. I think it's why we're so fucking bloody minded and can't forgive anyone for anything, blaming every man and woman for whatever behavior is taboo, because they could have chosen otherwise. Take a look at fundamentalist Christians, they will blame somebody for being gay when all science suggests factors of heredity and imprinting (the environment hardwiring of the brain) determines sexual preference.
At the same time, for me the game of life is not merely the Oriental recognition and submission to the order of things as they are, resigning myself as an accident of heredity and environment. While they have it right that I'm no more important than a humming bird or a tree, my life is not merely a matter of passively accepting my destiny to watch myself grow and blossom like a tree, albeit in the human format.
I think there's a distinctly third alternative. I'm sure you've taken a look at occult teachings, Gurdjieff, Crowley - the ones that suggest that the orientals have it right, that you are born mechanical, but there are techniques outlined in esoteric traditions like Hermeticism & Sufism, in which one can become less mechanical and approximate in daily and yearly increments towards freedom and responsibility. We're all here tweaking our own nervous system and finding various degrees of better living through chemistry, happy mutants of sorts. Learn to adapt, as Timothy Leary would say SMI^2LE.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19358521 - 01/02/14 01:22 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
That would imo beg the question of why one would being that journey and others would not and that brings me back to my suspicion that there is no truly free act. Everything was inspired or set in motion with the conditions of our birth and early programming via culture, initially through mater and pater.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19358594 - 01/02/14 01:36 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: That would imo beg the question of why one would being that journey and others would not and that brings me back to my suspicion that there is no truly free act. Everything was inspired or set in motion with the conditions of our birth and early programming via culture, initially through mater and pater.
Well, it wasn't, originally, it was an accident that I became a little more free for awhile when I was bit by a hallucinogenic spider
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19358611 - 01/02/14 01:39 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
There are no accidents in this regard imo. Another person may have not changed one iota. Your body chemistry, your brain conditions, your heredity all would play a significant factor here and likely more.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
#19358755 - 01/02/14 02:08 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: There are no accidents in this regard imo. Another person may have not changed one iota. Your body chemistry, your brain conditions, your heredity all would play a significant factor here and likely more.
I don't entirely agree, I think these drugs are substantial change agents - now if that's for the better or for the worse and whether it's a drastic change or a more subtle change is a different matter, but it's making some impact on your brain, on some level you've been tweaked. Largely I'd point towards culture as having made the greatest impact on positive life changing trips though.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19359621 - 01/02/14 04:58 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Everything you eat changes your brain chemistry in some subtle way. Eat nothing but sugar and junk and you'll see what I mean. But something motivated you to take such things and that cannot be pushed away. If a drug changes you then it still wasn't your free will. IMO.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
|