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Offlineall this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Sammysong]
    #19354011 - 01/01/14 09:00 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Sammysong said:
The one who is trying to find out who he is, is a mere puppet. To him, he is a person; empowered by volition and in control of his destiny. In truth, he is an appearance in consciousness – and phenomena can have no freedom. He thinks he is living his life – not knowing that every choice and every act, he himself and all else, is governed by the hands of the totality.



Nice.

I agree there's no true freedom.  That sounds terribly fatalistic to some, but I find the notion empowering, actually. 

I cannot fuck up.  Even when I'm deluded and make bad choices, I'm merely doing what I must do, at that particular moment.  The entire universe is acting through me to bring me to that particular moment of fucked-up-ness. 

The next moment may be better.  Or not. 

Either way is okay.


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OfflineThecrimson
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/13
Posts: 142
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19354022 - 01/01/14 09:05 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Sammysong said:
The one who is trying to find out who he is, is a mere puppet. To him, he is a person; empowered by volition and in control of his destiny. In truth, he is an appearance in consciousness – and phenomena can have no freedom. He thinks he is living his life – not knowing that every choice and every act, he himself and all else, is governed by the hands of the totality.



Nice.

I agree there's no true freedom.  That sounds terribly fatalistic to some, but I find the notion empowering, actually. 

I cannot fuck up.  Even when I'm deluded and make bad choices, I'm merely doing what I must do, at that particular moment.  The entire universe is acting through me to bring me to that particular moment of fucked-up-ness. 

The next moment may be better.  Or not. 

Either way is okay.





You can dress it up to sound fancy but it doesn't mean there's no freedom, the post you quoted is a silly one. I can't fly around in the sky unaided, doesn't mean I'm not free.


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Offlineall this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19354047 - 01/01/14 09:18 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
You can dress it up to sound fancy but it doesn't mean there's no freedom, the post you quoted is a silly one. I can't fly around in the sky unaided, doesn't mean I'm not free.



Notions concerning volition and free will are delusional.  Anyone into the concept of "ego attachment" should immediately recognize the claim of "free will" as the grandest ego attachment of them all.

As the previous post is suggesting (if I'm interpreting it correctly), you are, in this moment, the sum total of everything that preceded you, manifested in your particular body and with your particular consciousness.

You're not "in charge."  None of us are.

Kind of scary, yes -- but get over it.  :wink:


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OfflineIcyus
KavitārkikasiṃHa
Male


Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
Last seen: 8 years, 27 days
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19354053 - 01/01/14 09:20 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Chill.. stop giving a f6ck.. and be abliss!


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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OfflineThecrimson
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Registered: 10/21/13
Posts: 142
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19354138 - 01/01/14 09:54 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Thecrimson said:
You can dress it up to sound fancy but it doesn't mean there's no freedom, the post you quoted is a silly one. I can't fly around in the sky unaided, doesn't mean I'm not free.



Notions concerning volition and free will are delusional.  Anyone into the concept of "ego attachment" should immediately recognize the claim of "free will" as the grandest ego attachment of them all.

As the previous post is suggesting (if I'm interpreting it correctly), you are, in this moment, the sum total of everything that preceded you, manifested in your particular body and with your particular consciousness.

You're not "in charge."  None of us are.

Kind of scary, yes -- but get over it.  :wink:




We aren't in charge of everything, but as far as we are concerned there is free will. You might have some unchangeable features, but you can decide what to do with what's been given to you. There's a difference between being enlightened and living enlightened. If you always lived in the state of enlightenment you would be useless, you might as well be a plant. You should only take what you can from 'enlightenment' and apply it to your every day life. Otherwise what use is enlightenment?

I think some of you get so wrapped up in talking about ego dissolution and all of this that you're ego just returns in another way, making you spout nonsense.


Edited by Thecrimson (01/01/14 09:59 AM)


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OfflineMotherNaturesSon
Neuromancer ☿
Male


Registered: 05/21/09
Posts: 1,037
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Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Chronic7]
    #19354176 - 01/01/14 10:12 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

I guess I would say enlightenment is a state of mind in which the person experiences a universal sense of peace, happiness, stability, focus and flow regardless of the circumstances surrounding him. That is not to say that one cannot experience sadness and constantly be in a full-on blissful trance-like state, but rather that the element of suffering is no longer there even when experiencing things such as sadness or pain. This points to adequate responsiveness and the honouring of one's genuine emotions . It is first and foremost a personal experience, achieved for oneself, by yourself at the expense of absolutely nothing. Meaning no one else has been put off their path because of your own ambitions, no one has been hurt, bothered or in any other way negatively affected by your directly. The only way in which one can naturally affect others by walking his own path is to inspire and comfort. This creates a sense of freedom from entanglement. It is a state where one has undergone the excruciating transformation of processing trauma and inner insecurities.

But all this is what I believe enlightenment feels like without getting too poetic in the description (one with the universe and the truth, or what have you) based on my own expectations and criteria. But what enlightenment actually "is" is actually a completely different question, isn't it? I believe enlightenment is a mental state achieved by finding a personal solution for the conflict of our emotional and logical aspects of the mind. As we evolved, a new application of our minds (so to speak) began to function in a neural environment that had up until that point been completely emotional (the limbic system) and physical (the reptilian brain). That is the neo mammalian brain, the logical and calculative but also the abstract yet conceptual brain. That is the newest addition to our mental evolution. It would not be farfetched to assume that being a species with a relatively new brain part that enables us to experiences things in a new way- that we have yet to find a way to fully integrate this aspect into our psyche. It is not fully stable as of yet and we are in the very midst of that integration process. Enlightenment may be considered a single person's experience as he integrates all the aspects of his mind and the mind then becomes what it intends to be in a sense of evolution. Whereas madness and other destructive or self-destructive actions or thought patterns emerge as a result of direct and indirect failure to achieve said integration. While enlightenment is a personal experience, I wonder what the world would look like with every person enlightened, as I imagine it today. What would humanity be like? What would we be doing?

Happy new year everyone :lol:


--------------------
:watchingyou: :raptorJesus: :teabird: :watchingyou:

Excerpts of inner dialogue III-V-VIII:

"Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions."
"So you believe in intensions?"
"No. I believe in being genuine."


"The goal is to become more child-like, and less child-ish."


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19354264 - 01/01/14 10:48 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

but you can decide what to do with what's been given to you.

You can? And where does the decision come from? Is nothing but you in this moment influencing it? Because if the past had an influence then imo it's not free. It does feel free however and I'll agree there.

Well, it doesn't feel as free as it used to 40 years ago when I was in my 20s. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineThecrimson
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Registered: 10/21/13
Posts: 142
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19354295 - 01/01/14 11:01 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

So what would you consider 'free' that we aren't? Freedom to travel between dimensions? God knows you're not free until you can do that..

Don't try to make some "we're not the thinkers" logic with me.


Edited by Thecrimson (01/01/14 11:02 AM)


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Offlineall this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #19354347 - 01/01/14 11:22 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
but you can decide what to do with what's been given to you.

You can? And where does the decision come from? Is nothing but you in this moment influencing it? Because if the past had an influence then imo it's not free.



You're the sum of every cell division that occurred beginning with the moment your father's sperm met your mother's egg.  Your ability to use a computer and write intelligently (or not) on the subjects covered in this forum was a done deal from that moment on.

Environment is a factor, sure.  But a minor factor imo.

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
I think some of you get so wrapped up in talking about ego dissolution and all of this that you're ego just returns in another way, making you spout nonsense.



We promise to stop spouting nonsense if you promise to use "your" when appropriate.  :wink:

For the record, I'd like to once again disassociate myself from the "ego dissolution" crowd.  The "Big Bad Ego" is as much a fiction as the notion of 100 percent free will.

Our Big Bad Egos -- as well as our sense of there being "free will" -- are useful to us, otherwise these "things" would not have come to us.

Nothing that comes to us naturally and in an uncontrived manner is without use.

Imo.


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OfflineThecrimson
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/13
Posts: 142
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19354368 - 01/01/14 11:30 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

You haven't explained how we don't have free will.


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Offlinenicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 33,241
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19354379 - 01/01/14 11:34 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

I think free will is a matter of perspective. Just depends on how you choose to look at it.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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Offlineall this beauty
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Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19354410 - 01/01/14 11:42 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
You haven't explained how we don't have free will.



Perhaps you're thinking of "free will" as the "will" to read this post or not read this post.  That's not what I and others are talking about in this thread.

Of course you can decide your next move.  But only within the parameters permitted by your biology.

I can read every physics textbook ever written, memorize every word, but I'll never be an Albert Einstein.

Biology biology biology.


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OfflineThecrimson
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Registered: 10/21/13
Posts: 142
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: all this beauty] * 1
    #19354449 - 01/01/14 11:54 AM (10 years, 29 days ago)

You mean I'll never be a tall Jamaican woman? Damn this slavery.




We're free as far as it matters. Anyways it's kind of off topic.


Edited by Thecrimson (01/01/14 12:13 PM)


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Offlineall this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19354512 - 01/01/14 12:14 PM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
You mean I'll never be a tall Jamaican woman? Damn this slavery.



No.  I mean that if you thought it was "free will" that brought you to this Internet forum, think again.

What brought you to this Internet forum was a trillion trillion trillion trillion cell divisions that have occurred in the bag of blood and bones known as "Thecrimson."


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: MotherNaturesSon]
    #19354522 - 01/01/14 12:18 PM (10 years, 29 days ago)

no suffering, no dissatisfaction, no controlling desire

life could still be quite rough :shrug: perhaps completely handle able though, no such thing as overwhelmed? No personal attachment, just Teflon blood... slides right off but still experienced fully?

not necessarily asking questions here, just questioning myself :p

as they say as long as there is an idea, there is no reality. 


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (01/01/14 01:03 PM)


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19354539 - 01/01/14 12:25 PM (10 years, 29 days ago)

genetics, experiences, environmental conditions, nutrition

shape

experiencer

reactions

all current volition shaped by past volition, shaped by environment, circumstance, make-up

life is what you make it and life is what makes you

If you were placed in anyone's exact situation, you would be exactly them; doing, saying the exact same things.

all decisions we will make have already been shaped and are being shaped, leading to the next volition.

"buzzing around like a computerized machine whooooooooooooooooooooooooa" :whoa:


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (01/01/14 01:16 PM)


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OfflineThecrimson
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/13
Posts: 142
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Sse]
    #19354656 - 01/01/14 01:06 PM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Sse said:


If you were placed in anyone's exact situation, you would be exactly them; doing, saying the exact same things.




It's hard not to facepalm hard at this kind of stuff.


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19354686 - 01/01/14 01:14 PM (10 years, 29 days ago)

likewise hehhe

if you underwent everything environmentally, all conditions(genetic, environmental, nutritional, what have you), all circumstances as the other being, you would be exactly them. no doubt about it. doing exactly what they do, exactly what they've done.

I assume you misunderstood what I was laying down, the wording isn't/may not be complete enough.



--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (01/01/14 01:22 PM)


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OfflineIcyus
KavitārkikasiṃHa
Male


Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
Last seen: 8 years, 27 days
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Sse]
    #19354811 - 01/01/14 01:51 PM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Does noone listen to me? Bad vibes, men.

The world is really fucked up, and there are contradictions in everything.. Be abliss! Why? Because it feals nice.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: what is enlightenment? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19355956 - 01/01/14 07:20 PM (10 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Thecrimson said:
So what would you consider 'free' that we aren't? Freedom to travel between dimensions? God knows you're not free until you can do that..

Don't try to make some "we're not the thinkers" logic with me.




I already told you but guess that went right over your head. And then of course we've hardly touched on genes. :haha:

Logic is likely wasted on you from the look of your responses. I've never mentioned once supernatural powers. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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