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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: teknix]
    #19328287 - 12/26/13 10:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Also define enlightenment and what practices definition you are correlating it too. Enlightenment means different things to different people/practices. You're obviously not talking about the buddhist version, or any version I'm familiar with.


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: teknix] * 1
    #19328297 - 12/26/13 10:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Judgement is an eye-shutter indeed...


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: deCypher]
    #19328303 - 12/26/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Oh, and NO, you are not enlightened, even in some sort of paradox of language, ever.





Gee, and you know this how?

From the way it looks on my end you have the same dogmatic certainty as the guy claiming to be enlightened, except with less logical justification.  :shrug:




The logical justification is that in anatta, it is seen that there is no self, so what is there to be enlightened?


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Invisiblecez
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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19328307 - 12/26/13 10:47 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

To claim enlightenment is an extension of the ego, which isn't enlightened...
But I think op understands the game we are playing :thumbup:

So now the question moving forward is, what do you do with this awareness?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: cez]
    #19328316 - 12/26/13 10:50 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The next step is metta, ime. For those already thinking they are being enlightened, there wouldn't be a next step, because they think they have already arrived at the epitome of practice and achieved enlightenment.

How can anyone tell someone who thinks they know everything anything different when they are thinking they already know everything?



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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: cez]
    #19328330 - 12/26/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Wizard Dee, have you truly known to be God the almighty ruler before? That anything you deem would be truth. I hope you will not contradict yourself in answering. The super ego it is called, if you look away from those who abused the name.

You may see it the void, but when you truly pay attention, there is many a void you might roam. Now you have faced the truth, there is nothing. This is not a means to stop being.. you put something into the void, and the void will change.. to a different void.. you can feel the difference, even though it may never touch your lips.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: teknix]
    #19328331 - 12/26/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It's this same Ciaran Healey/ruthlesstruth teaching that has closed the door for many people to progress any further, by teaching anatta and claiming it as the end, or ultimate and enlightenment.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: teknix]
    #19328366 - 12/26/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Oh, and NO, you are not enlightened, even in some sort of paradox of language, ever.





Gee, and you know this how?

From the way it looks on my end you have the same dogmatic certainty as the guy claiming to be enlightened, except with less logical justification.  :shrug:




The logical justification is that in anatta, it is seen that there is no self, so what is there to be enlightened?




The homo sapiens with the username Ellis Dee?  You're getting mired in linguistic traps here IMO.

Unless you're claiming that no one can be enlightened by definition?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: deCypher]
    #19328401 - 12/26/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

No one can claim to be enlightened by definition of anatta, which precedes enlightenment. Buddha never claimed enlightenment for himself, the closest that he was ever said to have come to claiming it was by saying "I am awake".


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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: teknix]
    #19328547 - 12/26/13 12:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

My idea of enlightenment condensed:
It's a man-made description, in the same way that Christianity is a man-made religion.
'Awakened' is one who's walked that loop, and recognized it was a loop.
A single moment of "Hah.. well fuck".

Ever wonder why gurus carry a perpetual smile?
Why they're not bothered by trivial little problems, or why they can suppress the ego effortlessly?
Because it's funny. It's a big funny.



"He who knows does not speak, he who speaks does not know"

Translated

Don't ruin the joke, asshole.


--------------------
Β―\_(ツ)_/Β―


Edited by Tmethyl (12/26/13 12:26 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: Tmethyl]
    #19328809 - 12/26/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup:


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19329565 - 12/26/13 04:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
I like your attitude. What makes you think there's many truths? How many Pacific Oceans are there? How many paths to get there?



There is only one Pacific Ocean, and there are seemingly infinite paths to get there, but where are you in the Pacific? Can you control where you are in it? Does it matter where you are?
Perhaps I am on a frigid tide below the Alaskan peninsula, but tomorrow the currents will have brought me between the Hawaiian Islands, and the next day I might sink into the irradiated waters off the East coast of Japan

Quote:

I guess I'll just ask if you know for yourself who you are and what truth is?



I am a not a who, but a what, and what that is is various atoms, molecules, and cells in close proximity interacting in a way which provide each other energy and nutrition in order to maintain a relative composition. Who I am is just the various titles given to me by others and myself.

Quote:

And yeah, embracing the darkness, stop resisting it is part of the process. Is that emo? I don't know.



Perhaps I did not express myself clearly, I was moreso attempting to trivialize the glorification of self-pity.
In your original post you spoke of how enlightenment isn't the desirable state that popular culture makes it out to be, but still claimed to be a perfect being.
Where is perfection and holiness in meaninglessness and darkness?
Is your self-entitled perfection not without meaning?
Is your perception of the holy, the perfect, and the true not shrouded by the destitute darkness which surrounds you?

Quote:

You see, depression is a bit like fear without hope. Everyone can escape depression in ne of two ways. The way most people deal with it when they get those moments of clarity is to double down on hope, that things aren't really the way they seem. The other way is to realize there's nothing to be afraid of. Its like a skydiver rushing toward the ground at 120 miles an hour. Before you hit the ground you can pull the chute and find hope, or not. The moment I was going to hit the ground there's suddenly no Earth there to hit. I'm still hurdling through the void at 120mph but there's nothing to reference it against, nothing to be afraid of.  I am literally the infinate void, and its not scary, its just what I am. But its something I had to face when I wanted to find the truth instead of running back to delusion and away from it.



To me it appears as though you have doubled down on the hope that you have found something more than the average human, but that something for you is nothing.
Now I am going to try and explain how I view your statement of beliefs by making my own statements of beliefs which in some ways coincide with and in some way contradict yours.
You are indeed the void. I am the void. They are the void. Everything is the void.
People create delusions to attempt to escape the void, when these delusions are the void themselves, and the void is a delusion, but also a reality. Do you understand?
You have defined the void. I have defined the void. We give the void meaning to try and give ourselves meaning, as the void is ourselves and everything. However, it has no meaning. It is merely the void. So perhaps we aren't fully enlightened, and definitely no more enlightened than any other human, just as enlightened as we can be without losing sentience or our lives.
So is this the enlightenment that Buddhists desire in death? The acceptance of the lack of meaning? Maybe. And maybe Nirvana is realizing it and finally escaping the ego loop (reincarnation) through death.
Am I afraid? Yes. What am I afraid of? Everything, but more specifically, death. I accept life's meaninglessness, I accept the void, I accept death's meaninglessness. Do I embrace it? No. Embracing reality is just as useless as giving it false meaning (and to embrace something you must give yourself meaning to do so, this meaning will irrevocably be false), but false meaning is more enjoyable.
The enjoyment of delusion is why you and I have claimed enlightenment, the enjoyment of delusion is this philosophical debate, the enjoyment of delusion is believing we have reached something more.
Does fear have meaning? As much as you give it. You seem to think that embracing it took away its meaning by giving you confidence. Your confidence is just a creation of the fear that you flee. The Yin and the Yang, existing to spite each other but ultimately creating each other.
Meaninglessness is not meaningless without meaning, in every sense. You cannot be lacking something that was never there.

Quote:

You might be happier that way. If you're having a good dream why do you want to wake up? I wouldn't. I rather stay asleep and enjoy it. And thats fine. Its not like being awake is better than being asleep. Sometimes its more like a sharp stick in the eye.



Very true.
What is your motive for embracing the void?
It is not a love for truth. The void takes away love and truth. It is nothing.
Why nothing?
I would argue not nothing, you are not embracing the void.
You are attempting to give meaning to the void, an impossible feat.
Thus, your motive for attempting to define your beliefs, or even believing your beliefs, is merely evidence of the never-ending ego loop.
Your ego is attempting to give itself meaning, attempting to define itself as something else, disguise itself as something else. It is the thief disguised as a policemen, so clever that it fools even itself.
You may in fact be the void you speak of, but your actions just resemble ongoing ego masturbation. Constantly pleasuring and regurgitating yourself until you are masked by layers of metaphorical semen, realizing how pointless and disgusting the mess you've created is, and then continuing to masturbate because can't find use for your ego (penis) besides ejaculating and pissing around.


--------------------
dead man walking


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: deCypher]
    #19330709 - 12/26/13 09:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Unless you're claiming that no one can be enlightened by definition?



Well, if one takes reality to be non-dualistic by nature--and 'enlightenment' is understood to refer to the state where one transcends duality in order to experience non-duality--than, as i understand it, it does become impossible for an individual 'self' to directly experience the state of enlightenment.

The distinction of 'self' and 'other' is one of the most basic dualistic distinctions, and cannot exist in non-duality--even the concept of 'enlightened' and 'not-enlightened' is a dualistic distinction--in essence, the experience of non-duality does not feature an experiencer, nor does it have an experiencee--the state of non-duality is of pure undifferentiated experience.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: HalfLight]
    #19330732 - 12/26/13 09:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Here is an interesting story/koan:


Mumonkan Case 35 : Sen-Jo and Her Soul Are Separated

The Case:
Goso asked a monk, Sen-Jo and her soul were separated, which is the true one?

Mumon's Commentary:
If you are enlightened in the truth of this koan, you will then know that coming out of one husk and getting into another is like a traveler's putting up in hotels. In case you aren't enlightened, don't rush around blindly. When suddenly earth, water, fire and air are decomposed, you will be like a crab falling into boiling water, struggling with its seven arms and eight legs. Don't say then that I have not warned you.

Mumon's Poem:
Ever the same, the moon among the clouds Different from each other, the mountain and the valley. How wonderful! How blessed! Is this one or two? (this translation of the case is taken from Shibayama Roshi's

Zen Comments on the Mumonkan, Harper & Row, NY 1974)

This koan is based on an old Chinese folk story, which Goso is using to make a point about the nature of the true self. To summarize the story: Sen-Jo is a young woman who grew up in a little village along with her childhood sweetheart and the two of them always assumed that when they grew up they would be married.

But when Sen-Jo came of age, her father picked out a different husband for her and told her she couldn't marry her sweetheart. Thereupon her boyfriend left town, because he couldn't bear for her to marry someone else. He got on a boat and sailed down the river. But after he had gone a ways, he suddenly saw someone following him along the bank and pulled over. Miraculously, it was Sen-Jo, who had somehow managed to follow him. She got into his boat and they sailed away to a far off country where they married and had children.

Years passed and Sen-Jo missed her old father whom they had left behind in their home town, who had never seen his grandchildren. And so she said to her husband, I can't just stay here and not know whether he is alive or dead. We must go back and make our peace with him.Ò€ So they got in the boat and sailed back to their hometown. And her husband now says to her, You stay in the boat, and I will go meet with your father and explain the situation and then you can come out.

So he goes in and explains how he and Sen-Jo ran off so many years ago and how they are now happily married with children and how she wants to be reunited with him. And old father looks at him as if he is nuts, I don't know what you are talking about, Sen-Jo never left home. The day you left she fell sick, and has been lying in bed there motionless for all these years. The husband says, No, no, she's out in the boat, she is with me right now.

So the father brings him to the bedroom and sure enough Sen-Jo is lying in bed. But then husband goes out to the boat and brings his Sen-Jo back into the house. When Sen-Jo walks into the room where her other self is lying in bed, somehow, miraculously, the part that has been sick all these years gets up, the two of them come together, and they merge and become one person. And (presumably) live happily ever after.

So Goso asks: all those years Sen-Jo and her soul were separated - when she was split in half - which was the real one?

In order to understand this, we need first of all to understand the nature of the separation: the self or soul from the body, of one Sen-Jo from the other. We can all think of ways in which we have stood apart from our selves one way or another. Like Sen-Jo, in a very literal sense, if we try to split off some vital part of who we are, we will fall sick.

Sen-Jo can't live without love, cannot live without marrying her sweetheart, she goes to bed, depressed and immobilized. Often, people come to practiceΓƒβ€šΓ‚ because they have lost touch with something vital in themselves and are trying to bring it back. They rightly see that practice can put them back in touch with their body, their feelings, their connection to others. But unfortunately people can also use practice to rationalize having lost something and being cut off from it. And then they say, this practice will allow me to live without love, (or hope, or physical comfort, or recognition or any personal needs) to be strong enough to do without it.

We imagine that we can exile some aspect of ourselves through practice and still flourish. If we go that route, we end up like a ghost and then call being a ghost being spiritual. But the bottom line is that we've lost something of our true self, our embodiment, and if we use practice to cut ourselves off from some aspect or another of our emotional reality, we have perverted practice and will eventually have to pay the price.

How do we connect this to the question which is the true Sen-Jo... who is the real me? If we cut off some aspect of ourselves, we must try to go and get it back. We can't be our true self if we are only half of ourself. But there is another side to Sen-Jo's story. One part of her is separated from another by a span of many years. You could say that that symbolizes what is actually going on moment after moment. The depressed Sen-Jo, the married Sen-Jo, the one that is united.

You could say that these are all different self-states which succeed one another other. In the folk story, there is a gap of years but for us you may go through them all in 30 seconds... a moment of feeling depressed, feeling bored, elated, perfectly calm, restless. Which one is the real you? That is a question you really have to answer for yourself. Or, you might ask, which moment represents true practice? When you are sitting there all calm without a thought in your head or when the snot is dripping off your nose... wondering when is this going to end? Which one is true practice? We pass through all of these states and inevitably we prefer one to the other. We want one of them to be the real thing and we want the other to be something that we can push into the background and eventually eliminate. We want to pick out one and say this is the real one.

What is our true self? We may want to imagine that it is something deep inside with a nice polish or finish to it. Something nice, calm or compassionate, maybe. If I were asked who I am... how am I going to answer? I'm not going to answer with a description of some precious inner state that's the real me, I'm going to say I'm a psychoanalyst, a teacher, a father. All of these things don't have anything to do with what is inside me - they are all relational, they are all how I am in the world with all sorts of different people.

So who I am isn't something hidden deep inside, who I am is something that is constantly manifesting in all these different shapes and roles depending upon who I'm with, what light I'm in, what function I'm performing. It's always changing. Is it the same you that is doing all of these things? As it says in Mumon's the commentary, going from one state to another is like a traveler putting up at different hotels. The temptation is to think that there is an essential me that is the same but stops in different places. So that I have this experience, then I have this other experience, then I have a third experience¦in each case it is me doing three different things.

This is a misinterpretation of what life and self actually are because there is no one that can stand outside and observe each one of these different experiences. The man who observes it is inseparable from what is being experienced, and the observer is changed in each case by what is being observed and experienced. It is not that I can tell you from the outside what it is like for me to be a teacher because the person who is going to tell you is also the teacher. I can't separate the teacher part out and say what it is like for Barry to teach... Barry and the teacher aren't two different people. And though I go through the day and go through all these different states it is not as if I am having them all, as if some unchanging me is having one experience after another.

Who I am is always subtly changing and being changed by what is happening. This is the part we all half get and half resist. How fluid do we allow ourselves to be, how much do we try to hold on to one constant state, one constant observer, one constant view of ourselves? By holding on to a view of an unchanging self, we may end up saying, I sat really well this morning, but badly this afternoon.

But really who we are is just the experience of having it be one way in the morning and another way in the afternoon. You can't stand outside of that; well we can! -  but we end up like Sen-Jo -split in half. And then one half tries to control the other, one half may even try to assassinate the other if we aren't able to tolerate that all these different states and feeling are who we are. One day, the act of dying, like Mumon's crab hanging over a pot of boiling water, will be who we are.

Where is your true self then? When you look for the true self, where do you look for it? Deep inside? Will you discover it by some action of introspection? where are you going to find it? Right now, it's dripping from your nose.

http://www.ordinarymind.com/html/soul.html


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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19330736 - 12/26/13 09:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

in other words,


Both Ox and Self Forgotten


Whip, rope, Ox and man alike belong to Emptiness.
So vast and infinite the azure sky
that no concept of any sort can reach it.
Over a blazing fire a snowflake cannot survive.
When this state of mind is realized
comes at last comprehension
of the spirit of the ancient masters.


All delusive feelings have perished and ideas of holiness too have vanished. He lingers not in 'Buddha', and he passes quickly on through 'not Buddha'. Even the thousand eyes can discern in him no specific quality. If hundreds of birds were now to strew flowers about his room, he could not but feel ashamed of himself.


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Offlineendogenous
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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: Tmethyl]
    #19331208 - 12/26/13 11:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Tmethyl said:
I lived this realization, recently. I am thankful for what happened, but as Ellis has pointed out, knowing is not comforting, nor blissful



I was wondering what substance you had ingested?

It sounds like the op somewhat understood the emptiness of what most people call "god" but didn't see beyond that and assumed that was all there was.

Knowing what is beyond the emptiness is actually comforting and blissful.

    "There is the path of Wisdom and the path of ignorance. They are far apart and lead to different ends.
    Abiding in the midst of ignorance, thinking themselves wise and learned, fools go hither and thither--the blind led by the blind.
    What is beyond earthly life shines not to the childish, or careless, or those deluded by wealth. 'This is the only world--there is no other' they say. And thus they go from death to death.
"
  ---Katha Upanishad


--------------------
The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The dark night of the soul or how I became a fully enlightened krishna consciousness buddha [Re: endogenous]
    #19333655 - 12/27/13 05:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)



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