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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deCypher]
    #19325559 - 12/25/13 01:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well, no, you didn't save me anything. The seeking energy will continue until it exhausts itself. One simply must learn to stop feeding it and then it will begin to dissipate.

This is what has happened in me. All this crazy seeking I have been doing was a massive experimentation with energy and it has ended in a tremendous release.  At times the ego steps in and says "hey wait a minute, what has happened me here? Let me take control back" and that is very painful. But I have made the decision to see this through and not go back to feeding the ego.

I now understand why this can't be brought about before one is ready. You wouldn't want it. I have lost parts of myself, the loss of which I am currently mourning, but parts which I would have not have had the strength to give up until recently.

The desire to be more enlightened than I am is not even troubling me at this moment because I realize that would entail further surrender of self.

I guess I've found what I have been looking for all this time. Now the question is, can I handle it? Or am I going to continue to cling to my familiar prison for no reason other than that its familiar and this is unknown.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #19327009 - 12/25/13 09:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Once a seeker always a seeker.  I certainly haven't been able to quit even though I know it's bad for my health. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Posts: 10,848
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #19327117 - 12/25/13 10:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well, the thing about Richard Alpert is that he came from a wealthy background and banked as a Harvard professor, so he could actually afford to drop out and bum around India following his bliss. 

I don't understand your specific situation, but for most of us, we need money because without it can't pay our rent/mortage and would become homeless... If you are in such immense chronic pain that you can't work, I personally think it would be wise to try to get on social security disability and medicare, and then get medical help, maybe go to a pain management clinic and ultimately some sort of vocational rehabilitation agency that can help you find a job that you are capable of doing with your disability and get back up on your feet.  Your physical and psychological health can always tank further, so it's wise to have money to be able to have healthy food, medicine, and shelter...  There is no rock bottom, neglecting your body can make things much, much worse than they already are, and most people just aren't that into their pain and accept that on some level, they are a body. 

I'm not sure how you're getting by now, but if I was in your situation and was asking my family for help, I suppose my mom would likely help me, but things would be pretty tense in her household if I was sponging off her pursuing liberation as opposed to working towards becoming an autonomous adult.  I don't think I'd be able to enlightenment away my conscience if other people were getting the short end of the stick because of me, and would probably be that much more miserable for trying to do so.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19327134 - 12/25/13 10:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

There isnt anything to seek though. I dont know what I am going to do with the rest of my life now. Its like, I got so into the seeking business that it gave me something to do, I expalained to you how even it was like a portable game boy. Now what am I going to do?

What I realized was this, that God can manifest as either the enlightenedf state or the ignorant state.

Now the spiritual seeker is someone who had some glimpse of the enlightened state but did not realize that both the enlightened state and the ignorant state are within him, so he went off to seek the enlightened state. Enlightenment is realizing there is no and never was any ignorance. Its all just God playing hide and seek with himself. He hides as everything and he can be tough to find because we are so conditioned to look for him as something.

I still feel a sense of separation from God but I just cant view it in the same way anymore. Its too clear to me that seeking union is only reinforcing separation at this point. So now I just dont know what to do with myself or the rest of my life. Could it ever look more meanignless than it does right now?


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19327149 - 12/25/13 10:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Man in some ways this is a huge let down. I must admit I really enjoyed reading my Bible and going to church and saying my prayers and studying theology and now to realize all that has been going on all this time was God playing hide and seek with himself, its like it takes all the fun out of playing. Its a bit like how learning about all the physiology and biologically of sex takes all the romance out of it and by the time youre finished, you cant even get a boner from the hottest chick on the planet anymore.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19327177 - 12/25/13 10:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

I think you really misunderstand the value of an ego.  Just try living without one.  The problem is how the ego operates. Is it healthy and not fear driven to the extent that it tries to run the whole of the personality or is it more relaxed easy going?  As in the concept of the helpful and watchful guardian that we have turned into a despotic prison guard.  The ego is necessary for navigating material reality as a separate physical entity.  How well your experience goes in living is a direct result of the emotional health of your ego structure.




Forgot to give this a :thumbup:, incredibly lucid post.

You are the jail, the prisoner, and the guard.  I guess all is one :haha:



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineMahananda


Registered: 08/18/12
Posts: 117
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19327271 - 12/25/13 11:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Man in some ways this is a huge let down. I must admit I really enjoyed reading my Bible and going to church and saying my prayers and studying theology and now to realize all that has been going on all this time was God playing hide and seek with himself, its like it takes all the fun out of playing. Its a bit like how learning about all the physiology and biologically of sex takes all the romance out of it and by the time youre finished, you cant even get a boner from the hottest chick on the planet anymore.




A few quick observations:

1. If you have (or have had) an experience of insight, you'll know it.  Possibly not right away, since part of what you'd expect would be a significant time spent integrating that perspective into the stream of your otherwise ordinary experience.  But it will be clear, like a first experience of love, before which you wondered "will it ever happen to me?" and "what is is really like" and after which your own experience and those of others, along with the language that describes them, all make sense.

2. If you're not yet certain, I wouldn't be so sure about giving up spiritual exercises.  It's true that insight may come in spite of, rather than as a result of, such exercises, but in practical terms most of the people offering that particular observation in fact spent years in practice before the ripening of insight.  Possibly they just needed to wear themselves out, and correlation doesn't equal causation, but by the same token such practices may be necessary or at least helpful.  Be cautious about what you're discarding.

3.  Even after an experience of insight, you'll wake up with the same body and mind, complete with ego, foibles, bunions, old scars (emotional and physical) and so on.  It happens that, in addition to producing insight, such practices as the eightfold path are very helpful as palliatives for the myriad conditions comprised and/or caused by daily life.  Another reason to continue them.

4.  The joy of bhakti need not disappear.  If anything, it should deepen, as you recognize in each experience the mystery of existence.

Again, best of luck to you.


--------------------
Come, come, whoever you are.
Wanderer, worshiper, lover of living, it doesn't matter
Ours is not a caravan of despair.
Come even if you have broken your vow a thousand times,
Come, yet again, come, come


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OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Mahananda]
    #19327395 - 12/26/13 12:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think what I am having a hard time with is seeing that stillness and rest is what I long for and all these spiritual practices involve effort and movement. It's hard to see that yourself, not just be told it and agree that it makes sense but clearly see it yourself and then go back to feeling separate and having to do spiritual practices again. WHy does the feeling of being separate always come back even after I see how absurd it is? When I see through it it looks so obvious that I feel like I couldnt possibly forget again and feel separate again but next thing I know, an hour later and I am back to thinking I am separate from everything.


Edited by Deviate (12/26/13 12:25 AM)


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19327594 - 12/26/13 03:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Man in some ways this is a huge let down. I must admit I really enjoyed reading my Bible and going to church and saying my prayers and studying theology and now to realize all that has been going on all this time was God playing hide and seek with himself, its like it takes all the fun out of playing. Its a bit like how learning about all the physiology and biologically of sex takes all the romance out of it and by the time youre finished, you cant even get a boner from the hottest chick on the planet anymore.




A big part of my path was becoming thoroughly bored with everything, the classic 'falling away of worldly things', i used to see this as such a let down, as how boring to be so bored with everything... but now when this mood comes i embrace it, to be so disinterested in everything means i can just be myself without any distractions

If there was no beauty, love, bliss, within me waiting to blossom then it would be horrible to lose all these external interests, but as these beautiful things become revealed as my very self, what a blessing to become so disinterested in dross

It's good to become let down & bored because it shows we're really making progress, so to speak, we're losing the superficial lusts & opening up to True Love

The only way our undiluted joy can reveal itself is if we stop watering it down with thoughts


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19327803 - 12/26/13 07:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
There isnt anything to seek though. I dont know what I am going to do with the rest of my life now. Its like, I got so into the seeking business that it gave me something to do, I expalained to you how even it was like a portable game boy. Now what am I going to do?

What I realized was this, that God can manifest as either the enlightenedf state or the ignorant state.

Now the spiritual seeker is someone who had some glimpse of the enlightened state but did not realize that both the enlightened state and the ignorant state are within him, so he went off to seek the enlightened state. Enlightenment is realizing there is no and never was any ignorance. Its all just God playing hide and seek with himself. He hides as everything and he can be tough to find because we are so conditioned to look for him as something.

I still feel a sense of separation from God but I just cant view it in the same way anymore. Its too clear to me that seeking union is only reinforcing separation at this point. So now I just dont know what to do with myself or the rest of my life. Could it ever look more meanignless than it does right now?




So join the club . I realized the same thing about seeking.  Now I seek simple pleasures and work to avoid pain just like I'm designed to do.  What you seek can make a difference. You will still seek something and we all are waiting for the seeking to be over, which it will be, just like you.  Find a way to get some Kratom. It's really helpful at least for me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19327850 - 12/26/13 07:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

are you the reason i keep getting kratom ads popping up? :lol:


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Chronic7]
    #19327907 - 12/26/13 08:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I now own stock in the company. :evil:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19327927 - 12/26/13 08:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

no wonder you're recommending it to Deviate  :satansmoking:

i tried it once :puke:


--------------------


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Offlinedeff
just love everyone
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19327959 - 12/26/13 08:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I think what I am having a hard time with is seeing that stillness and rest is what I long for and all these spiritual practices involve effort and movement. It's hard to see that yourself, not just be told it and agree that it makes sense but clearly see it yourself and then go back to feeling separate and having to do spiritual practices again. WHy does the feeling of being separate always come back even after I see how absurd it is? When I see through it it looks so obvious that I feel like I couldnt possibly forget again and feel separate again but next thing I know, an hour later and I am back to thinking I am separate from everything.




you might be able to find the stillness within the movement. i find as an effect of meditation that it becomes possible to do this, especially if you practice energetic meditation like mantra recitation (i think you said you practice the Catholic equivalent of this, or did). what I find is that this allows the mind to rest in equipoise while the body and speech are engaged in the ritual - a skill that carries over into other areas of life, allowing you to maintain calm serenity even in the midst of busyness. you could try still engaging in the Church activities, if they mean a lot to you, while at the same time trying to abide in the heart, as the stillness, sort of both stillness and activity as one, a wellspring of enlightened activity, or something :smile: and i'd say don't be so hard on yourself for your apparent shortcomings on the spiritual path, a big part of the spiritual path is self-love and self-acceptance, really brightens everything up. best wishes :smile:


--------------------



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Chronic7]
    #19328088 - 12/26/13 09:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
no wonder you're recommending it to Deviate  :satansmoking:

i tried it once :puke:




You used it wrong imo.  The first time I tried it I took way too much and puked so bad I swore I'd never use it again.  Many years later Sse showed me how to use it right and it's amazing. Now I can take those high doses without any nausea but I had to work up to it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Icelander]
    #19328212 - 12/26/13 10:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah people told me to keep at it & eventually the nausea will go away but i lost interest, initially i wanted to try it because i heard it can mix with mushrooms quite well, maybe if i need a physical pain killer in the future i'll look into it


--------------------


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Chronic7]
    #19329335 - 12/26/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Man in some ways this is a huge let down. I must admit I really enjoyed reading my Bible and going to church and saying my prayers and studying theology and now to realize all that has been going on all this time was God playing hide and seek with himself, its like it takes all the fun out of playing. Its a bit like how learning about all the physiology and biologically of sex takes all the romance out of it and by the time youre finished, you cant even get a boner from the hottest chick on the planet anymore.




A big part of my path was becoming thoroughly bored with everything, the classic 'falling away of worldly things', i used to see this as such a let down, as how boring to be so bored with everything... but now when this mood comes i embrace it, to be so disinterested in everything means i can just be myself without any distractions

If there was no beauty, love, bliss, within me waiting to blossom then it would be horrible to lose all these external interests, but as these beautiful things become revealed as my very self, what a blessing to become so disinterested in dross

It's good to become let down & bored because it shows we're really making progress, so to speak, we're losing the superficial lusts & opening up to True Love

The only way our undiluted joy can reveal itself is if we stop watering it down with thoughts




That last thing you said really affected me. You see, I have been so into tony parsons lately and he never talks about trying to control ones thoughts or becoming free from thougthts so I had basically dropped all those practices. After I read your post I spent about 40 minutes in "true meditation" (this a practice I learned from adyashanti) and i was contronted with a number of deep thought patterns that had been bouncing around in the back of my mind semi consciouisly for quite some time. Afterward, I felt like I broke through to a new level of being. THe Jesus prayer became very active in my heart and my nous went down into my heart. Then it became frightened of what was happening and it went back into my brain. Now I can feel myself constantly running from my heart. I know that I want to be in my heart and yet there is a part of me which does not and seems to be continually running from being who I am. I am afraid of myself. I am a afraid of what a good person I am and how i have done so much evil. I think I am afraid of what the real me is going to think of the person I have been, because the real me is such a good loving person and the me that I have been is such a depressed, selfish, dreadful and unloving person.


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deCypher]
    #19329392 - 12/26/13 03:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
The ego has no value. It is completely useless.



Nothing wrong with the "ego."  Nothing to escape there.  Doctrines that proclaim otherwise are full of shit.  Buddhists who proclaim otherwise are full of shit.

Your ego -- your sense of separateness, superiority, and invincibility -- is precisely what brings you to forums and discussions like this one.  If you were some cosmically perfect wishy-washy ego-less thing, you'd be boring.  No one would want to listen to you or go to the movies with you.

We have a sense of separateness, superiority, and invincibility because those "senses" serve biological / evolutionary purposes.  There is no cosmic trickster burdening us with attributes that aren't useful to us. 

All in my opinion.







Let the inner being be the outer being

You will still have an ego as long as you have thoughts, and you cant live life without thoughts

But no thoughts most of the time is pretty enjoyable

Sometimes I got an ego, sometimes I dont :wink: , how is that possible?

Business/study everyday, nature/meditation/trance after work :wink:


Edited by lessismore (12/26/13 03:51 PM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: Deviate]
    #19329431 - 12/26/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
I am afraid of myself. I am a afraid of what a good person I am and how i have done so much evil. I think I am afraid of what the real me is going to think of the person I have been, because the real me is such a good loving person and the me that I have been is such a depressed, selfish, dreadful and unloving person.




Look into Jung's works.  Learn to recognize and enlighten your Shadow.  The mistake I see most Christians I know make is that they try to disinherit/disown/shun/cast off part of themselves--the part of themselves that they dislike or feel that they don't want to be.  But the thing is... that IS who part of you is.  You can't fight it-- you can temporarily cast it off, but it WILL return.  Instead of fighting, try to accept.  And transcend.  It's more difficult than you can imagine, but the rewards are more than you can realize.  :sun:

"One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious."
--Carl Jung


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: After the death of the business man, the Christ child is born [Re: deCypher]
    #19329472 - 12/26/13 04:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

yup, got that problem numerous times, not over it :-)

realizing ones mistakes is not without suffering

we all got a good and bad side, try not to think so much about it

just be

acceptance is good
dont just accept people shitting on you i.e.
but else acceptance is good :-P
becomes natural if not thinking about how to live, but it may take years to resolve own problems inside yourself, did so for me and not done , took years so far

I try to give/help/care about others when I can, but I will tell people my honest opinion if they really shit on me
and I realize I dont always treat others fair... but usually that is due to having to work on something in myself that Im not done with
just accept it

and I dont worry, I cant be perfect all the time ;-)
only the soul is perfect, but to live I do separate from god at times

peace :smile: , anytime you want


Edited by lessismore (12/26/13 05:11 PM)


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