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cez

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Faith precedes wisdom
#19325803 - 12/25/13 02:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Reading a Gnostic text that's a story on the beginning of everything. The text claims faith is the beginning of everything, then wisdom was created.
Now I'm not trying to say anything regarding religion, but it's an interesting thought...Is faith the precursor to wisdom or can it be vice versa?
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Roger Wilco
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Re: Faith precedes wisdom [Re: cez]
#19325935 - 12/25/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Faith in what? Your question only makes sense in a setting, a time, a place. A scenario. You need something to have faith in for faith to exist, You need some area of awareness to become wise upon for wisdom to exist. When examining each scenario the answer changes.
The wright brothers had faith they could build an airplane, and after many failures, they built it. Only after completing a successful project they had the wisdom on how to build flying machines. In this situation faith came first. This is only one scenario, do not attempt to see archetypal patterns from it. Do not build rules from it.
People used to have faith the world was flat, because that's what it looks like from the ground, you can see for miles and miles and miles in one direction. When science showed the world was round, people had new wisdom to guide their faith. In this situation Wisdom came first.
The words wisdom and faith are not used on their own. They need context. Because of that there is no simple dichotomy of which comes first. The order is situation dependent.
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Icelander
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You rock dude.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Roger Wilco
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Re: Faith precedes wisdom [Re: Icelander]
#19326646 - 12/25/13 07:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Cheers.
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Deviate
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Quote:
Roger Wilco said: Faith in what? Your question only makes sense in a setting, a time, a place. A scenario. You need something to have faith in for faith to exist, You need some area of awareness to become wise upon for wisdom to exist. When examining each scenario the answer changes.
He gave the scenario right in his post. He said it was a gnostic text, hence he is speaking of the theological virtue of faith and how it relates to wisdom. Theological virtues are not dependent on context. That is to say, if someone has faith, it is something which exists cross sectionally across a wide variety of circumstances. Of course that doesn't mean there aren't situations which may challenge one's faith, but as faith grows and develops it becomes more and more like an anchor in one's consciousness, preventing the mind from swinging from one extreme to another and holding it steady on whatever needs to be accomplished in the present moment. Faith could be defined simply as the absence of anxiety about the future at the deepest levels of ones being due to a firm conviction or understanding that there is nothing to fear or worry about besides fear and worry. It's trusting that life will provide, or if not, that death will.
The wright brothers had faith they could build an airplane, and after many failures, they built it. Only after completing a successful project they had the wisdom on how to build flying machines. In this situation faith came first. This is only one scenario, do not attempt to see archetypal patterns from it. Do not build rules from it.
People used to have faith the world was flat, because that's what it looks like from the ground, you can see for miles and miles and miles in one direction. When science showed the world was round, people had new wisdom to guide their faith. In this situation Wisdom came first.
The words wisdom and faith are not used on their own. They need context. Because of that there is no simple dichotomy of which comes first. The order is situation dependent.
Here you are confusing knowledge with wisdom and faith with belief. For example, a true man of faith does not need faith that he can build an airplane in order to build an airplane. He simply needs to try. He may think building an airplane is impossible but as long as he willing to give it his best shot, he stands a chance at succeeding. Faith does not require one to be attached to a specific outcome. A good lesson that can be learned from this is that it is more important to have faith in oneself and one's own abilities than faith that one can accomplish some particular thing. For example, the man of faith might say "I don't know if it's possible to build an airplane, but if it possible than I'll be damned if I can't figure out how to do it".
To answer your question OP, I am not really sure about the exact nature of the relationship between faith and wisdom. I would say that out of the two, faith is definitely more foundational but it seems like one could through wisdom, be eventually lead to faith.
For example, that is how I got faith. I lived without faith and in unwise ways. Years past and I saw how even when I screwed up, situations eventually worked out for better or worse and even when they worked out for worse, I learned something from them. I saw that even if I were to die, then I would die and there would not be anything I could do about it, so even then, there was no sense in worrying. Through this wisdom, I was lead in the direction of faith as I realized the more I learned to relax and trust that things were going as they should, the more I would enjoy life and the wiser I would be. I saw how fear and lack of
If someone lacks faith, it can only be because that person thinks their personal agenda (what they'd like to see happen) is more important than what is actually going to happen.
Edited by Deviate (12/25/13 09:19 PM)
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
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Well said Deviate 
This was a half-ass post...I had a nice feeling after reading this text and projected it to you all in a poor manner
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Roger Wilco
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Re: Faith precedes wisdom [Re: Deviate] 1
#19327129 - 12/25/13 10:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: He gave the scenario right in his post. He said it was a gnostic text, hence he is speaking of the theological virtue of faith and how it relates to wisdom......................
There are many "gnostic" texts. I have no reason to presume they all say the same thing. I have no reason to make assumptions about what was meant in an unclear post. OP did not specify any meaning, value, or text; he mentioned order only.
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Deviate said:
Here you are confusing knowledge with wisdom and faith with belief.
No I am not. If I am please demonstrate it with references so I can correct my language.
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Deviate said:
For example, a true man of faith does not need faith that he can build an airplane in order to build an airplane. He simply needs to try. He may think building an airplane is impossible but as long as he willing to give it his best shot, he stands a chance at succeeding. Faith does not require one to be attached to a specific outcome.
I'm not sure what all of this has to do with the wright brothers, they really did intended to build an airplane, and succeeded. They are not "men of faith" they were men with a specific faith, the faith that a goal was obtainable, so they worked to obtain it.
from dictionary.com
"Wisdom: the quality or state of being wise; knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgment as to action; sagacity, discernment, or insight."
OK, so once they figured it out, they knew what would work and what wouldn't. They acquired just judgment as to action and discernment because they had gone through the motions. They really had the wisdom on how to build airplanes. Putting all the the little bits of knowledge together, a complete picture arises.
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Deviate said:
A good lesson that can be learned from this is that it is more important to have faith in oneself and one's own abilities than faith that one can accomplish some particular thing. For example, the man of faith might say "I don't know if it's possible to build an airplane, but if it possible than I'll be damned if I can't figure out how to do it".
You are suggesting that faith in one's self and ability doesn't include faith in oneself to accomplish something? I don't get it. I challenge you to find a list of synonyms for belief on the internet or elsewhere that does not list faith. I have used them in synonymy because they contain synonymous meanings. I am not confused.
belief
freedictionary websters This one doesnt list faith as a synonym, but a definition.
They are synonyms. They have equal values in proper context, which I have used.
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Deviate said:
To answer your question OP, I am not really sure about the exact nature of the relationship between faith and wisdom. I would say that out of the two, faith is definitely more foundational but it seems like one could through wisdom, be eventually lead to faith.
No, that doesn't answer or engage with his question at all. You just said you don't know, followed by a supposition statement that you did not qualify or quantify.
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Deviate said:
....Through this wisdom, I was lead in the direction of faith.....
Wait a minute; you assumed faith was primary, but it wasn't in your own experience? That's a strange contradiction.
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Deviate said:
If someone lacks faith, it can only be because that person thinks their personal agenda (what they'd like to see happen) is more important than what is actually going to happen.
How do people know what is actually going to happen? What does this have to do with faith? I'm not grasping the meaning of this statement.
Don't assume how other people think. "It can only be......" is really judgmental and presumes a lot about how people prioritize and valuate things.
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Chronic7
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Re: Faith precedes wisdom [Re: cez]
#19327571 - 12/26/13 02:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
cez said: Reading a Gnostic text that's a story on the beginning of everything. The text claims faith is the beginning of everything, then wisdom was created.
Now I'm not trying to say anything regarding religion, but it's an interesting thought...Is faith the precursor to wisdom or can it be vice versa?
I think it swings both ways...
Faith to me is trusting myself, and i find wisdom in that trust, but i also feel that wisdom can bring about that trust if one doesn't yet understand it's actually allright to trust yourself, maybe you have to be true to yourself through wisdom before you can trust yourself, otherwise you could just be trusting the false within you
I can't see myself, or define myself, or even know myself, yet i know i can trust it, because I Am it, to myself, this is faith
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Icelander
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Re: Faith precedes wisdom [Re: Chronic7]
#19327918 - 12/26/13 08:10 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm looking for a gf named Faith so I can have faith in Faith and cut out the middle man.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Faith precedes wisdom [Re: Icelander]
#19327960 - 12/26/13 08:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: I'm looking for a gf named Faith so I can have faith in Faith and cut out the middle man. 
I can hardly wait.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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cez

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Re: Faith precedes wisdom [Re: Chronic7]
#19328182 - 12/26/13 10:02 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
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cez said: Reading a Gnostic text that's a story on the beginning of everything. The text claims faith is the beginning of everything, then wisdom was created.
Now I'm not trying to say anything regarding religion, but it's an interesting thought...Is faith the precursor to wisdom or can it be vice versa?
I think it swings both ways...
Faith to me is trusting myself, and i find wisdom in that trust, but i also feel that wisdom can bring about that trust if one doesn't yet understand it's actually allright to trust yourself, maybe you have to be true to yourself through wisdom before you can trust yourself, otherwise you could just be trusting the false within you
I can't see myself, or define myself, or even know myself, yet i know i can trust it, because I Am it, to myself, this is faith

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deCypher



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Re: Faith precedes wisdom [Re: cez]
#19328773 - 12/26/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
cez said: Reading a Gnostic text that's a story on the beginning of everything. The text claims faith is the beginning of everything, then wisdom was created.
Now I'm not trying to say anything regarding religion, but it's an interesting thought...Is faith the precursor to wisdom or can it be vice versa?
Faith is the last refuge of a mind determined to believe something in absence of any supporting evidence and in the face of a multitude of evidence against it.
Wisdom is the furthest thing from faith, IMO.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Roger Wilco
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Re: Faith precedes wisdom [Re: deCypher]
#19328883 - 12/26/13 01:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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What about the wright brothers????
If you let your faith slide into dogmatism, your lost. If you support your faith with dynamism, your good.
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deCypher



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The Wright brothers AFAIK didn't have faith; they had hope. There's a difference.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Roger Wilco
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Re: Faith precedes wisdom [Re: deCypher]
#19328930 - 12/26/13 01:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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From google:
faith 1.complete trust or confidence in someone or something. synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction; More
antonyms: mistrust 2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
Wright`s must have had #1. otherwise it wouldnt be worth it after losing friends to death, and almost dieing, broken bones, etc. You'd need more than a little hope. You would beleive you could do it. You would have conviction in your confidence, not fluffy duffy "hope". WAAY more than blood, sweat in tears went into this, hope would not cut it.
Hope
a feeling of expectation and desire for a certain thing to happen. "he looked through her belongings in the hope of coming across some information" synonyms: aspiration, desire, wish, expectation, ambition, aim, goal, plan, design; More a person or thing that may help or save someone. "their only hope is surgery" grounds for believing that something good may happen. "he does see some hope for the future" synonyms: hopefulness, optimism, expectation, expectancy; More antonyms: pessimism 2. archaic a feeling of trust.
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deCypher



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I suspect unless one of us can offer up evidence from their writings we will only be guessing about the Wright brothers' mental states, but you may be right.
Still though--faith, to me, is a word that comes with a whole lot of religious baggage, not to mention the oft-used irrational thinking that tends to follow it hand-in-hand. Hope seems like the secular form of faith along with a rational possibility of abandoning one's beliefs if they're found out to be truly impossible--something that faith does not allow one to do.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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all this beauty
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Re: Faith precedes wisdom [Re: cez]
#19337627 - 12/28/13 04:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes, faith precedes wisdom. Wisdom (intellect) informs faith, but faith is the bedrock of human existence.
When I walk down a flight of stairs, I have faith that the next step will be there to catch my footfall. Intellectually I have no way of "proving" that that will be the case. Just because it's happened a trillion trillion trillion times before (i.e., the next step has always been there ) doesn't "prove" it will happen again. The odds are very good that it will, but they're only odds. Perhaps the next step will suddenly disappear, and I'll trip and fall.
There's no way of "proving" that the sun will rise tomorrow. I have faith that it will and organize my life accordingly, but it's still only faith.
As with the external, so with the internal. All spiritual belief is predicated on faith.
There's no way of intellectually "proving" any personally-held spiritual belief. Any and all spiritual experiences may be self-delusional.
How could I "know" that my personally-held spiritual beliefs are true?
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Roger Wilco
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Still though--faith, to me, is a word that comes with a whole lot of religious baggage, not to mention the oft-used irrational thinking that tends to follow it hand-in-hand. Hope seems like the secular form of faith along with a rational possibility of abandoning one's beliefs if they're found out to be truly impossible--something that faith does not allow one to do. 
Faith can take on religious connotation, but I do not accept that it must carry that connotation. Many words have had their meanings distorted and subjugated, but that doesn't mean we can't take the words and use them tangibly, without fervor or hype.
I have faith I can grow carrots again this year. I will yet again assume the role of a gardener. After many years of doing so, the garden is prepped, the tools are ready, and seeds are plentiful. I hope this season will be a good growing season. However if it is a dry season, I presume I can make due with my rain collection system if the season is poor.
I say I have faith, and not knowledge because, well, I guess I could get hit by a bus, or we could get invaded and conquered by the Costa Rican army. In actuality, I honestly see nothing that could stand in my way; It's a simple task that I am experienced in, I play safe, I am prepared and healthy and It's coming up very shortly. I have faith in myself to complete the task. "Faith" ,as a word, is so much more pleasant than "presumption", it is also more powerful. That power, although intangible, can help you persevere, and get shit done. Work is hard, and faith helps.
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all this beauty said:
faith is the bedrock of human existence.
How??
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all this beauty said:
When I walk down a flight of stairs, I have faith that the next step will be there to catch my footfall. Intellectually I have no way of "proving" that that will be the case. Just because it's happened a trillion trillion trillion times before (i.e., the next step has always been there ) doesn't "prove" it will happen again. The odds are very good that it will, but they're only odds. Perhaps the next step will suddenly disappear, and I'll trip and fall.
This faith sounds an awful lot like awareness....... You eyes saw the next step, you didn't navigate the soul. Are you saying that antelope run on faith??? Do trees roots run on faith?
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all this beauty said:
There's no way of "proving" that the sun will rise tomorrow. I have faith that it will and organize my life accordingly, but it's still only faith.
This is not only faith, it is just faith. It is justified faith, the faith that the sun will again rise.
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all this beauty said:
As with the external, so with the internal. All spiritual belief is predicated on faith.
Are you sure that external world is a "spiritual belief"? Does not make sense to me.
The word spirit is another word that has been subverted by religiosity. The word still can be used in a tangible manner, however care must be taken in it's use, I don't recognize such care in your post. I feel you are misusing "spirit", as you are not grasping it's etymology. I feel it's use is being informed in some part by your religious beliefs.
The world spiritual simply means "of breath" and the word is precursor to the modern word "consciousness". People recognized that when you stopped breathing, you were no longer present. The word spirit was a reference to that essence of life, vitality, awareness that came along with breathing air. Today we use the word consciousness, however even that word "consciousness" does not give us complete understanding of our perceptions etc. .
Incompleteness in the theories regarding consciousness gives us room to maintain some use in the word "spirit", especially when relating to the artistic and emotional aspects of our experience. You are in "high spirits" when you are a sports fan, and your team is having an amazing night. You are in "low spirits" when depressed. Don't drink too many spirits because your consciousness will get distorted.
If the physical world is only in ones head, then that individual will easily be used and manipulated by those around them, and this is not due to greed malice or spite of others, but the submissive nature of a the individual's perception; a corrupt consciousness.
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Icelander
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Quote:
all this beauty said: Yes, faith precedes wisdom. Wisdom (intellect) informs faith, but faith is the bedrock of human existence.
When I walk down a flight of stairs, I have faith that the next step will be there to catch my footfall. Intellectually I have no way of "proving" that that will be the case. Just because it's happened a trillion trillion trillion times before (i.e., the next step has always been there ) doesn't "prove" it will happen again. The odds are very good that it will, but they're only odds. Perhaps the next step will suddenly disappear, and I'll trip and fall.
There's no way of "proving" that the sun will rise tomorrow. I have faith that it will and organize my life accordingly, but it's still only faith.
As with the external, so with the internal. All spiritual belief is predicated on faith.
There's no way of intellectually "proving" any personally-held spiritual belief. Any and all spiritual experiences may be self-delusional.
How could I "know" that my personally-held spiritual beliefs are true?
That doesn't make any sense. The wisdom of not falling precedes the faith you won't. We learn what we can or cannot do by experience and after many reps we then have faith.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Faith precedes wisdom [Re: deCypher]
#19339314 - 12/28/13 10:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
cez said: Reading a Gnostic text that's a story on the beginning of everything. The text claims faith is the beginning of everything, then wisdom was created.
Now I'm not trying to say anything regarding religion, but it's an interesting thought...Is faith the precursor to wisdom or can it be vice versa?
Faith is the last refuge of a mind determined to believe something in absence of any supporting evidence and in the face of a multitude of evidence against it.
Wisdom is the furthest thing from faith, IMO.
That's not what faith is at least not religious faith. Faith is not a belief. Faith is leaning so hard on God, that if God wasn't there, you would fall over.
In its highest form, faith is synonymous with wisdom/being/enlightenment/peace and happiness and bliss.
It's letting go, total non resistance to life, it's gnoses. Your definition of faith sounds more like irrationality to me, and I find it sad that the two are so easily confused in this day and age, especially by someone of your stature and intelligence. Religious people know in their hearts that their faith is more than believing in something without evidence, even if they are intellectually unable to explain what it is. But faith begins as trust in your creator, trust in the life process, trust in the wonderful machinary of your own organism. It is not opposed to reason either.
For instance one could reason, this life process has been going on billions of years. I appear to be just one human being out of billions. when it comes down to it, I am really not the one running this show. I wont live forever and there ain't nuttin' I can do about it. Therefore, why should I worry about it? Obviously whatevers going on here, is much bigger than me and it seems to go on regardless of whether I anxiously attach myself to desired outcomes or if i just sit back and watch the wheels go round (oh how i love to watch them roll). Therefore, I can surmise that my feelings of fear and anxiety are largely optional and I can choose to have faith that what is happening is what should be happening and that my creator/nature/life whatever you wanna call it, has given me the tools to deal with the situations that are going to arise and that none of this is particularly special or important, its happened to billions of other people who are all living and are all going to die just like i am.
So that right there is in part, the bases of my faith. God knows what he's doing and if he don't know, then there ain't much I can do about it.
Edited by Deviate (12/28/13 10:32 PM)
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Roger Wilco
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Re: Faith precedes wisdom [Re: Deviate]
#19339427 - 12/28/13 10:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
That's not what faith is at least not religious faith. Faith is not a belief. Faith is leaning so hard on God, that if God wasn't there, you would fall over.
In its highest form, faith is synonymous with wisdom/being/enlightenment/peace and happiness and bliss.
There is no high or low forms of words. Context sets the stage for meaning intended by the author speaking the word. If one uses the word "faith" in context that it is belief, they are literally correct, because they are synonyms in the English language.
If faith to you means wisdom/being/enlightenment/peace and happiness and bliss, you must be prepared to define your terms every time you use the word. This is because we are speaking English.
Your concepts may be valid, and may be worth sharing, but when using your own definitions ,when using a personalized language that others do not share, your ideas will not be understood.
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all this beauty
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Re: Faith precedes wisdom [Re: Icelander]
#19340740 - 12/29/13 09:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
all this beauty said: Yes, faith precedes wisdom. Wisdom (intellect) informs faith, but faith is the bedrock of human existence.
When I walk down a flight of stairs, I have faith that the next step will be there to catch my footfall. Intellectually I have no way of "proving" that that will be the case. Just because it's happened a trillion trillion trillion times before (i.e., the next step has always been there ) doesn't "prove" it will happen again. The odds are very good that it will, but they're only odds. Perhaps the next step will suddenly disappear, and I'll trip and fall.
There's no way of "proving" that the sun will rise tomorrow. I have faith that it will and organize my life accordingly, but it's still only faith.
As with the external, so with the internal. All spiritual belief is predicated on faith.
There's no way of intellectually "proving" any personally-held spiritual belief. Any and all spiritual experiences may be self-delusional.
How could I "know" that my personally-held spiritual beliefs are true?
That doesn't make any sense. The wisdom of not falling precedes the faith you won't. We learn what we can or cannot do by experience and after many reps we then have faith.
I disagree. I think that faith is the predicate to wisdom and knowledge. ("Faith" understood broadly, encompassing much more than the "faith" exhibited by the religious.)
First you have faith that you can navigate the stairs without falling, then experience informs, reaffirms, your faith. No child would take his first step were it not for the innate human intuition ("faith," if you will) that it were possible.
Looks like I have a different understanding of "faith" than you and others here.
Neither better nor worse. Just different.
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Icelander
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Who's going to bungy jump until they've seen in some way that the bungy will hold? One out of a million that's who.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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all this beauty
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Re: Faith precedes wisdom [Re: Icelander]
#19341158 - 12/29/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: Who's going to bungy jump until they've seen in some way that the bungy will hold? One out of a million that's who.
Lol. True. Very true.
Some say that the bravest, most fearless person in the history of the world was the first person who ever ate a raw oyster out of the shell.
Lemme tell ya... took a shitload of faith to try that one.
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