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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325322 - 12/25/13 11:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think all he's really trying to say (in the original quote), ultimately, is that the ego is a false self.

I fail to see why such a notion is so controversial.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19325340 - 12/25/13 12:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The notion itself isn't, how it is said is. The ego isn't really existing in the first place, yet it is claimed to be existing in everyone as another mind?

We don't really know what he was trying to say because of the way he put it, imo.


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325344 - 12/25/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

People are idiots. They will believe a lie because they would like it to be true, or because they fear it might be.


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And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: Icyus]
    #19325354 - 12/25/13 12:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Or they are manipulated into believing it.

If you don't believe it then why are you claiming Don Juan said it rather than Castaneda wrote it?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325400 - 12/25/13 12:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Oh, and he is also putting himself as an authority on what constitutes a Shaman in insinuation.

Which "Shaman" is just another silly label for the ego to wear around it's neck. (Metaphorically)


Edited by teknix (12/25/13 12:25 PM)


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325484 - 12/25/13 12:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Oh, and he is also putting himself as an authority on what constitutes a Shaman in insinuation.

Which "Shaman" is just another silly label for the ego to wear around it's neck. (Metaphorically)



It might be, yes, but not to the person worthy of it... even though the title holds no actual copyright, if one may say so..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: Icyus]
    #19325507 - 12/25/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Why would a person worthy need or even want such a label?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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channelling casteneda [Re: Icyus]
    #19325547 - 12/25/13 01:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

a shaman is a rascal.

a shaman has  functional insights, but no functional superiority,
although obviously,
when you can see the pageant of life as a mix of automation, feelings, and personal participation, you are sharing the shaman's view, and it is beautiful, sad and hilarious.

in this perspective, mind and brain are the seat of automation (ego) and potentially of wisdom as well, and the wisdom is smaller than the automation (by far - hence the little voice).

the reason why influencing autonomous nervous system to show prowess is a degenerate goal of yogis, is that it steers seekers away from seeing that the mind (which is a one-ness, and the brain is a unified organ as well) in it's true light: as a trainable organ that sustains the body through cultural actions rather than physical adaptations,
but it is also an organ that can appreciate values and change the trainable fabric, by concerted effort and sticktoitiveness.

this is where the shaman is different from the saddhu, rather than making a show of subjugating the body's physicality, he/she will use the insight of the two minds to get beyond the limitation of ego.

what the saddhu is doing is not riding the elephant, but training a virtual elephant to ride the elephant. it is a ludicrously silly approach to liberation. It would make any shaman crack up with insane laughter - especially to see the acolytes taking the whole venture seriously.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325571 - 12/25/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
RGV, I'm still curious as to why you think that the description of a gateway to the autonomic system is degenerate? I can see how it could degrade the mystical elements in regards to spirituality, yet I don't understand why that would necessarily be negative?



wrong headed and silly, more so than negative, degenerate in that it drags people in unworthy directions, making unimportant things into goals.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325581 - 12/25/13 01:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Even if you don't like to look at the brain has have distinctly functioning attributes on one side or the other, the opposites are still contained within it somewhere, regardless if they are on opposite sides or the same side.



sure, opposites are among ideas, and ideas are in mind.
useful ones and useless ones just the same.
all part of the  aggregate associative contents of memory.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325590 - 12/25/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
The phrase in the OP could also be a manipulatory tactic being used against those who desire to be a shaman. "If you want to be a shaman, you have to see it as two minds", is kind of what is being said/claimed.

So if you disagree then you must not be a shaman ?



quite likely,
and so what,
maybe it is not important - you could be a different kind of a rascal. not all rascals are shaman rascals.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19325606 - 12/25/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

teknix said:
RGV, I'm still curious as to why you think that the description of a gateway to the autonomic system is degenerate? I can see how it could degrade the mystical elements in regards to spirituality, yet I don't understand why that would necessarily be negative?



wrong headed and silly, more so than negative, degenerate in that it drags people in unworthy directions, making unimportant things into goals.




Who's too decide the importance and superiority of one goal over another, especially if they lead to the same place? If two different goals lead to the same place, are the goals really different?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: channelling casteneda [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19325626 - 12/25/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
a shaman is a rascal.

a shaman has  functional insights, but no functional superiority,
although obviously,
when you can see the pageant of life as a mix of automation, feelings, and personal participation, you are sharing the shaman's view, and it is beautiful, sad and hilarious.

in this perspective, mind and brain are the seat of automation (ego) and potentially of wisdom as well, and the wisdom is smaller than the automation (by far - hence the little voice).

the reason why influencing autonomous nervous system to show prowess is a degenerate goal of yogis, is that it steers seekers away from seeing that the mind (which is a one-ness, and the brain is a unified organ as well) in it's true light: as a trainable organ that sustains the body through cultural actions rather than physical adaptations,
but it is also an organ that can appreciate values and change the trainable fabric, by concerted effort and sticktoitiveness.

this is where the shaman is different from the saddhu, rather than making a show of subjugating the body's physicality, he/she will use the insight of the two minds to get beyond the limitation of ego.

what the saddhu is doing is not riding the elephant, but training a virtual elephant to ride the elephant. it is a ludicrously silly approach to liberation. It would make any shaman crack up with insane laughter - especially to see the acolytes taking the whole venture seriously.




So a shaman doesn't only take on the label of a shaman, but the label of a rascal as well . . . hehe.

You consider ego as automation, I do not. I consider ego as self, or the idea's built upon one another to an illusion of what you are. The phenomena doesn't have to be the goal, but the path towards the goal. From personal experience, that was never the goal, only the effect of progress. Confirmation that you are on the right path, and without the need for a mystical explanation for the experience.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19325632 - 12/25/13 01:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

teknix said:
The phrase in the OP could also be a manipulatory tactic being used against those who desire to be a shaman. "If you want to be a shaman, you have to see it as two minds", is kind of what is being said/claimed.

So if you disagree then you must not be a shaman ?



quite likely,
and so what,
maybe it is not important - you could be a different kind of a rascal. not all rascals are shaman rascals.




So do you really think all shamans would claim the same thing, and if not then they are not to be considered as such?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325641 - 12/25/13 01:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


this is where the shaman is different from the saddhu, rather than making a show of subjugating the body's physicality, he/she will use the insight of the two minds to get beyond the limitation of ego.

what the saddhu is doing is not riding the elephant, but training a virtual elephant to ride the elephant. it is a ludicrously silly approach to liberation. It would make any shaman crack up with insane laughter - especially to see the acolytes taking the whole venture seriously.





Now you are using ego to mean two different things, once you claimed it as automation, then next you say it is the illusion of self. I'll have to look up what saddhu means, as I've never heard it before.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325651 - 12/25/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It seems like both Shamans and Saddhus are in the same boat as far as beliefs go. Both of them also choose to take on labels for their self, which is contradicting, as are most established practices today, that have such silly ranks and names for the people who correlate to the ranks.

I guess it is in my bias, that only egos could accept such labels for themself, or identifiers for their selfs.

A shaman is not really a shaman, a buddhist is not a buddhist, a saddhu is not a saddhu, ultimately.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325681 - 12/25/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Just like achieving enlightenment for oneself might be ones goal at the beginning of the path, along the way and through progress it forgoes being the goal.

So maybe the same is true with a real shaman? They start out wanting to be a shaman, yet in the end they realize how absurd the notion is in contradiction to progress.


Edited by teknix (12/25/13 08:47 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325714 - 12/25/13 02:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:


this is where the shaman is different from the saddhu, rather than making a show of subjugating the body's physicality, he/she will use the insight of the two minds to get beyond the limitation of ego.

what the saddhu is doing is not riding the elephant, but training a virtual elephant to ride the elephant. it is a ludicrously silly approach to liberation. It would make any shaman crack up with insane laughter - especially to see the acolytes taking the whole venture seriously.





Now you are using ego to mean two different things, once you claimed it as automation, then next you say it is the illusion of self. I'll have to look up what saddhu means, as I've never heard it before.




to get beyond the limitation of automation
one thing
ego
automation

(your automation is trying to pick my clarity apart, no?)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325723 - 12/25/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Just like achieving enlightenment for oneself might be ones goal at the beginning of the path, along they way and to progress it forgoes being the goal.

So maybe the same is true with a real shaman? They start out wanting to be a shaman, yet in the end they realize how absurd the notion is in contradiction to progress.



true
but also the advance is hilariously real as well as contractictorially meaningless (I would rather have it than not but it has no weight or intrinsic value iykwim)


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19325732 - 12/25/13 02:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I guess you are right.. there is no need for the titles..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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