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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: hmmn]
    #19321971 - 12/24/13 04:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Touche.

If reality is an illusion then is it really reality?




I define reality as the realm of consensus between human beings in their social relations and by extension what would be agreed upon in private.  I believe psychotic individuals are not in consensus reality, for example. 

It all depends on what you mean by "reality."  Surely, conventional awareness can be transcended, as I imagine almost everyone in this forum would agree.  But 'reality' as I (and others) have defined it is clearly not the whole story.

Quote:

hmmn said:

Hmmm...how could you know that the ego is dependent on the brain, while the true self is both non-local and independent of the brain?  What you've claimed is consistent with my experience of life, but I don't see any particular reason to believe that it's true.  It could be otherwise...




It is my impression that consciousness is more fundamental than matter and energy.  As the human nervous system, with its emotional-territorial drives (i.e. ego), is based on a deterministic interplay of matter and energy, I do not regard it as fundamental.  I identify the ego with those drives, and contend that they are automatic.  I further contend that objective consciousness is not automatic, that it is more fundamental, and that we can attain to it -- and should. 

I feel that this is what Don Juan was alluding to.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19322380 - 12/24/13 05:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Why are you saying Don Juan rather than Castaneda?

:confused:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19322388 - 12/24/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


is Yin and Yang not the magical male and female energy model, we do have many real things that relate to positive negative, and in sex male and female are essential (more often than not), but this beautiful idea should not be projected everywhere.





The concept of Yin and Yang describes the intrinsic homeostasis within the universe. To say it only applies to male and female is belittling imo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang


Edited by teknix (12/24/13 06:14 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19322397 - 12/24/13 06:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Castaneda was a pupil of Don Juan (who was a Shaman of the Yaqui tribe) when he was supposedly doing fieldwork for a Ph.D. in anthropology.  Don Juan is the one who said it; Castaneda, in his book, was quoting Don Juan.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19322399 - 12/24/13 06:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Oh, I thought he was a fictional character in a book. For what reason should the book be taken as anything but fiction, I mean is there any evidence of a Don Juan IRL?

This stuff isn't really new, and most if not all of it can be seen through various  spiritual practices preceding the books.



Edited by teknix (12/24/13 06:08 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19322517 - 12/24/13 06:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Oh, I thought he was a fictional character in a book. For what reason should the book be taken as anything but fiction, I mean is there any evidence of a Don Juan IRL?

This stuff isn't really new, and most if not all of it can be seen through various  spiritual practices preceding the books.






His critics contend that his works are pure fiction, while supporters range from claiming them to be legitimate, to saying, well, maybe they're not quite what he represented them to be, but they constitute valuable philosophy nonetheless.  Interestingly, it is public record that the research logs which were transcribed into his first three books did lead to a Ph.D.

Personally, I don't really buy the Castaneda myth myself, although I find parts of some of his books rather interesting.  The reason I don't buy it is that the books are a little too repetitive to be true -- as in, he's really good at writing about one thing so he does it over and over and fortunately for him finds a captive audience.  (These books did, of course, come out in the sixties).

Honestly, I just liked the quote, which I stumbled across some time back.  The first book -- The Teachings of Don Juan -- was good, but like I said, once I checked out two or three of the others I became somewhat disillusioned, thinking this guy found a niche and exploited it.

You're right, it's not new, and I don't recall anyone suggesting that it was.  I still think his notion about the two minds is fascinating.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19322606 - 12/24/13 07:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Do you think everyone really has two minds?

It is an interesting way to look at the phenomena of self, but I don't agree with the two minds, when a mind divided would achieve the same effect and seems more accurate, and to say it applies to everyone is most likely a stretch.

I say that because two minds sounds kind of schizophrenic and using the same word to describe independent phenomena doesn't do justice to one of the phenomena, if they are truly independent.

Could a single mind incorporate all of the above, and if so why is there a need for a dualistic two?

I can see it as an interesting metaphor, but not anything literal.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19322650 - 12/24/13 07:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Do you think everyone really has two minds?

It is an interesting way to look at the phenomena of self, but I don't agree with the two minds, when a mind divided would achieve the same effect and seems more accurate, and to say it applies to everyone is most likely a stretch.

I say that because two minds sounds kind of schizophrenic and using the same word to describe independent phenomena doesn't do justice to one of the phenomena, if they are truly independent.

Could a single mind incorporate all of the above, and if so why is there a need for a dualistic two?

I can see it as an interesting metaphor, but not anything literal.




It all depends on how you want to look at it, and what words you want to use.  Frankly, I think we have at least eight brains (the eight circuits).  You could also call it two "selves" -- the ego, which is illusory, and the true you, which is not.  It's just a guideline.  But I do think there exists a duality, which is that a part of you is instinctual and automatic, and another part is the true individual.

However many minds or brains or selves or whatever there are inside you, remember that there is only one consciousness, and it flows undivided.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19322662 - 12/24/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, I thought that before too, until meditation led me to control normally autonomic processes.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19322688 - 12/24/13 07:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Have you ever perceived anything that is not within or encompassed by the mind, or pure awareness?


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Invisiblehmmn


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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19323862 - 12/25/13 12:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:shrug:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19323888 - 12/25/13 12:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
not the hemispheres, those have function, but mostly for body sense and body memory behind the frontal cortex.
even the frontal cortex which handles abstraction is like part of the externality of mind:
even when it is full of feelings, and those feelings are inside you.
the part that can be you you is the prefrontal cortex, the wee bit (way in front of the frontal cortex) that can correlate your experiences and your abstractions against each other in context of 'values'
in this tiny piece of brain
the tiny voice, the tiny impulses, and weak resolution has to negotiate cooperation with the overall automation that the rest of body mind represents.

like a cup compared to an ocean.

one really must choose their battles, and only wage to win.
the method is one of training the beast (not like you can steer the elephant in real time, what you can do is arrange training and practice, in real time it is an automation).

left and right brain theories have mostly been debunked, but the scientists have not all caught up to this, while the astrologists and charlatans are reveling in the confusion.




QFT

Also note comparisons to the voice of God being "a tiny, small voice" after the whirlwind and hurricanes of false prophets/elephant mating calls.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19324616 - 12/25/13 06:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Have you ever perceived anything that is not within or encompassed by the mind, or pure awareness?




Dear Teknix;
I guess there are things in this thread that are triggering you strongly, several side arguments have emerged and your voice is strongest but may divert from the core thread topic - but that is the nature of discussion - one must evaluate related things:

1. validation of shamanism versus the authenticity of Don Juan and Casteneda.
2. left right brain theory and pseudo science.
3. meditation, awareness, and autonomic function.
4. yin yang in everything.

In relation to these matters:

1. I think there is merit in discussions of shamanism, generally, but when discussing the wisdom of shamans we have to remember that they are rascals (such as we all are) who love to look and laugh at life, but who connect deeply with both love and loss, worship what they love and mourning what they have lost.
As rascals in our society, what they say (from perspectives of entheogenic inspiration) may be useful directly to those who are mourning or praying, but mostly needs to be interpreted in context of who they are and how they obtain their rascally insights to life.
Also the confusion related to authenticity of DonJuan and Casteneda is very consistent with the essence of being a Rascal; i.e. not being responsible to fulfill other peoples expectations of who you have to be to exist in any particular role. (a trickster)

2. left and right brain is consistent with left and right hand, left and right leg, left and right eye. Neural tissue does regenerate, and some brain can certainly be removed if diseased and a person can live on. Beyond that, attributions of value to left and right side are mostly arbitrary and for erroneous reasons that are not good science or even cause and effect karma.

3. meditation, the practice of awareness, could be a great tangent for this thread, because in meditation the 'tiny voice' is given the honor of speaking to the whole domain. in the practice of awareness, without any robotic ego challenge, a perspective is gained of the nature of mind and life, and values can be more deeply established through one's being while the tiny voice is engaged in the intimacy with the greater beast.
But to consider it as a gateway to autonomic control by conscious mind is a degenerate approach that many saddhus are know to have taken; their yogic demonstrations have earned them followings and livelihood.

4. yin and yang certainly are at the base of everything in the sense of the wave nature to all matter and energy, the constant fluctuation of positive and negative (as opposed to the polar opposition of two natures) - the depiction of yin yang as a wave with tiny dots of opposition within should be a clear clue to the beauty and ubiquity of the  concept being all about the wave nature of things - change. This does not correspond with left right brain, but it does correspond with a tit for tat conversation style - alternating one side then the other, pinging and ponging. But I don't think that was the OP's premise.

merry christmas shroomereenos!


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19324955 - 12/25/13 09:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:



left right brain theory and pseudo science.

yin yang in everything.






Well, I think that the people who wrote the articles could have jumped the gun, because in the article you presented by Huffington Post, the title reads that it is definitely debunked yet when you read the article it says it may have been debunked, so the exaggeration of debunking is only intended to grasp you attention, and honestly I don't understand how the evidence presented could be considered debunking, rather than providing a sliver of evidence to the contrary.
Even if it is pseudo science it is still describing the duality of the mind that most people face in my opinion, negative verse positive.

Quote:


meditation, awareness, and autonomic function.

But to consider it as a gateway to autonomic control by conscious mind is a degenerate approach





Why do you think the approach is degenerate, you claimed it but forgot the reasoning behind the claim. I don't personally have "little voices" during meditation, for that would be counter productive imo.

Quote:


validation of shamanism versus the authenticity of Don Juan and Casteneda.





I'm not really sure what point you are trying to get across here.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19324965 - 12/25/13 09:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Even if you don't like to look at the brain has have distinctly functioning attributes on one side or the other, the opposites are still contained within it somewhere, regardless if they are on opposite sides or the same side.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325093 - 12/25/13 10:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Little voice is a metaphor for the degree of command and control that the  prefrontal cortex can have

I.e. free will


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19325128 - 12/25/13 10:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I find that Don Juan simplifises things too much and atleast in his works it seems he doesnt see the whole picture..

You idiots keep arguing if it is two psycological parts or two parts of the physical brain.. One may have any opinion in this, yet the only truth is that it is a whole.. metaphoricly speaking, both you guys and Don Juan (the time he wrote the book) keep wondering where to slice the cake.. take a step back and see the cake, not two or three or eleven pieces, and stop then to argue which piece is which.. this is really insane.. even though it is quite the central part of both modern psycologi and knowledge in general..

You need to know that these divisions are mere attempts of us humans to describe the I, (or you, but you get the point). The brain isnt in pieces, nor is the consciousness.. though to describe aspects one must devide it, not having words to describe it all.. still.. someone might say your subconsciouss is in pain, or you are a righthemlsphere individual..or a feminine person to an other.. yet neither of these things actually excist.. righthemosphere, subconsciousness, masculinity and femininity.. they are but a part of the whole, and since we have no simgular words to describe the exact identity of the psyce one must categorise to find a close truth.. but it is important to know it is a close truth, and nothing more.. like this with psycological diagnoses.. they are never a houndred percent accurate if they arent named after the victim( or subject, or any word fitting not offensive to anyone).

that should sum it up..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


Edited by Icyus (12/25/13 11:06 AM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: Icyus]
    #19325222 - 12/25/13 11:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, that's why I said it isn't everyone and a mind divided is a more adequate description.

Oh, and calling people idiots is an ad hominem, any moron should know that.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19325254 - 12/25/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

RGV, I'm still curious as to why you think that the description of a gateway to the autonomic system is degenerate? I can see how it could degrade the mystical elements in regards to spirituality, yet I don't understand why that would necessarily be negative?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325277 - 12/25/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The phrase in the OP could also be a manipulatory tactic being used against those who desire to be a shaman. "If you want to be a shaman, you have to see it as two minds", is kind of what is being said/claimed.

So if you disagree then you must not be a shaman ?


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