Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Original Sensible Seeds Feminized Cannabis Seeds

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
the shaman sees two minds
    #19320347 - 12/24/13 09:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"Every one of us human beings has two minds.  One is totally ours, and it is like a faint voice that always brings us order, directness, purpose.  The other mind is a foreign installation.  It brings us conflict, self-assertion, doubts, hopelessness."  --Yaqui Shaman Don Juan

from The Active Side of Infinity by Carlos Castaneda


I agree with this.  I'm interested to hear some of your thoughts....


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19320361 - 12/24/13 09:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
"Every one of us human beings has two minds.  One is totally ours, and it is like a faint voice that always brings us order, directness, purpose.  The other mind is a foreign installation.  It brings us conflict, self-assertion, doubts, hopelessness."  --Yaqui Shaman Don Juan

from The Active Side of Infinity by Carlos Castaneda


I agree with this.  I'm interested to hear some of your thoughts....




A Foreign Installation?  WTF.  Yeah Yaqui Shame On You fucking globalist.  UN Agenda 21 Punk.  I know, it's all about the fucking "sustainability". 

Whew.  I feel better already, thanks fucking Carlos you tale spinning paranoid cult leading jackass.  I love you Bro!


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19320414 - 12/24/13 10:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:



mind
mΔ«nd/Submit
noun
1.
the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought.





In my opinion, Two minds aren't accurate, it's one mind based upon 2 distinctly differently functioning hemispheres of the brain. They all make up the mind, if the mind is the totality of the capacity for thinking.

So one mind can be divided into two distinct parts, but they both still make up the one mind.

Personally I think it is much better explained in a book I read called "Click", in which both aspects of our minds are described as the Elephant and the Rider, the rider being the logical thinker and the elephant being the emotional one.

The rider can only do so much to control the elephant and direct it where to go, but if the elephant decides to do something else, the rider has little sway over the elephant. 

It doesn't take a shaman to see that.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix] * 2
    #19320938 - 12/24/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

not the hemispheres, those have function, but mostly for body sense and body memory behind the frontal cortex.
even the frontal cortex which handles abstraction is like part of the externality of mind:
even when it is full of feelings, and those feelings are inside you.
the part that can be you you is the prefrontal cortex, the wee bit (way in front of the frontal cortex) that can correlate your experiences and your abstractions against each other in context of 'values'
in this tiny piece of brain
the tiny voice, the tiny impulses, and weak resolution has to negotiate cooperation with the overall automation that the rest of body mind represents.

like a cup compared to an ocean.

one really must choose their battles, and only wage to win.
the method is one of training the beast (not like you can steer the elephant in real time, what you can do is arrange training and practice, in real time it is an automation).

left and right brain theories have mostly been debunked, but the scientists have not all caught up to this, while the astrologists and charlatans are reveling in the confusion.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19320966 - 12/24/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:



left and right brain theories have mostly been debunked, but the scientists have not all caught up to this, while the astrologists and charlatans are reveling in the confusion.






Evidence?

There is evidence of a lady with half a brain re-wiring the same phenomena.

It's how the mind works. Yin and Yang.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19320972 - 12/24/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think it has anything to do with right and left hemispheres of the brain.

I believe he was referring to the ego-self as the foreign installation (as we are all DNA robots designed to procreate, no matter what, and act the vast majority of the time automatically) and the true, fundamental self as the "faint voice" which is what would amount to "free will" for those who believe in it.

Another way to look at the ego-self vs. true-self is to draw an analogy with physics:  the former is like a classical, deterministic system, while the latter is more like an unconstrained quantum system.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19320998 - 12/24/13 12:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm seriously thinking about ignoring RGV, it seems like he commonly posits red-herrings, pretending as if it is evidence against the topic or what someone said, when really it has nothing to do with it. I don't know if he does it on purpose or if he really thinks he made a legitimate argument though, or maybe even the argument is over my head.


Edited by teknix (12/24/13 12:47 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19321008 - 12/24/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I don't think it has anything to do with right and left hemispheres of the brain.

I believe he was referring to the ego-self as the foreign installation (as we are all DNA robots designed to procreate, no matter what, and act the vast majority of the time automatically) and the true, fundamental self as the "faint voice" which is what would amount to "free will" for those who believe in it.

Another way to look at the ego-self vs. true-self is to draw an analogy with physics:  the former is like a classical, deterministic system, while the latter is more like an unconstrained quantum system.




That may be true, but my problem is with this claim:

"left and right brain theories have mostly been debunked, but the scientists have not all caught up to this, while the astrologists and charlatans are reveling in the confusion."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19321022 - 12/24/13 12:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Just read about the girl with the hemispherectomy and then decide if it is bunk.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19321084 - 12/24/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I don't think it has anything to do with right and left hemispheres of the brain.

I believe he was referring to the ego-self as the foreign installation (as we are




He? Who is HE in this instance? There is no previous mention of anyone which to refer.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix] * 1
    #19321098 - 12/24/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:



left and right brain theories have mostly been debunked, but the scientists have not all caught up to this, while the astrologists and charlatans are reveling in the confusion.






Evidence?

There is evidence of a lady with half a brain re-wiring the same phenomena.

It's how the mind works. Yin and Yang.



is Yin and Yang not the magical male and female energy model, we do have many real things that relate to positive negative, and in sex male and female are essential (more often than not), but this beautiful idea should not be projected everywhere.

the corpus callosum connects the left and right cerebral hemispheres and facilitates interhemispheric communication, ensuring that memories form on both sides of brain with sensory features from both sides of the body. basically you get one strand for every 20 afferent neurons, on a side, conveying a bit of the activity over to the other side in a consistent way.

the rest has to do with idiosynchratic learning, where one learning type gets a bigger footprint on one side by habit, and another category can be more fully developed on the other (maybe) if the sensory preponderance of that side is involved with the learning process.

anyway there are about 109,000 google results for "left brain right brain debunked"

the huffington article may help you with this


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19321111 - 12/24/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Just read about the girl with the hemispherectomy and then decide if it is bunk.



radical surgery just might have a radical effect, but it does not prove the left brain right brain theory, while it supports the fact that much brain tissue is missing after removal.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19321159 - 12/24/13 01:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

If it was bunk, then why would the brain need to re-wire anything?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblehmmn


Registered: 01/09/13
Posts: 372
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19321164 - 12/24/13 01:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
"Every one of us human beings has two minds.  One is totally ours, and it is like a faint voice that always brings us order, directness, purpose.  The other mind is a foreign installation.  It brings us conflict, self-assertion, doubts, hopelessness."  --Yaqui Shaman Don Juan

from The Active Side of Infinity by Carlos Castaneda


I agree with this.  I'm interested to hear some of your thoughts....




Yeah...it's a valid point of view, and beautifully expressed.  It feels a bit hostile to me, though it does jive with my experience.  All kinds of conflicting thoughts and emotions pass through awareness.  If I take the time to sit and notice them, it's clear that most of them came from outside; they aren't "me."  Though I haven't found anything I could call "me" yet...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19321173 - 12/24/13 01:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I can type in google "Earth is round debunked" and get over a million results. But does that make it true?

That point isn't really valid.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19321195 - 12/24/13 01:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Just read about the girl with the hemispherectomy and then decide if it is bunk.



radical surgery just might have a radical effect, but it does not prove the left brain right brain theory, while it supports the fact that much brain tissue is missing after removal.




We're not proving anything, but collecting evidence for or against.

As much as you seem to know, I'm not sure how you could miss that.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19321509 - 12/24/13 02:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:


He? Who is HE in this instance? There is no previous mention of anyone which to refer.




"He" is Don Juan.  I referred to him above.

I would just like to suggest we steer the conversation away from this left/right argument.  As I pointed out, that is not what Don Juan was talking about.

Here is my two cents:
So often, we fall into the trap of conflating our consciousness and our true self with the individual self of our evolutionary brain.  The "classical" ego-self (i.e. the nervous system and its functions) gets reflected by the inherent consciousness of the brain, and we feel that we are carrying out what are really automatic functions of the organism in its environment.  The hyper-relativistic, non-local "quantum" true-self, which normally is dormant in almost everybody, is where true reality (and real autonomy and intelligence) exists, and is often mystically (and therefore very imprecisely) described.  The classical self is a robot designed by evolution to carry out sexual reproduction through whatever means necessary.  Fundamentally, our consciousness and our ego-self are not identical.  Generally speaking, the ego-self is an artifact of the mammalian brain.  The brain and the ego do not give rise to consciousness; consciousness is actually more fundamental than either of them.  This is a point of great confusion.  The ego is an illusion.  Reality itself is an illusion.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19321592 - 12/24/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Touche.

If reality is an illusion then is it really reality?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblehmmn


Registered: 01/09/13
Posts: 372
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19321817 - 12/24/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

teknix said:


He? Who is HE in this instance? There is no previous mention of anyone which to refer.




"He" is Don Juan.  I referred to him above.

I would just like to suggest we steer the conversation away from this left/right argument.  As I pointed out, that is not what Don Juan was talking about.

Here is my two cents:
So often, we fall into the trap of conflating our consciousness and our true self with the individual self of our evolutionary brain.  The "classical" ego-self (i.e. the nervous system and its functions) gets reflected by the inherent consciousness of the brain, and we feel that we are carrying out what are really automatic functions of the organism in its environment.  The hyper-relativistic, non-local "quantum" true-self, which normally is dormant in almost everybody, is where true reality (and real autonomy and intelligence) exists, and is often mystically (and therefore very imprecisely) described.  The classical self is a robot designed by evolution to carry out sexual reproduction through whatever means necessary.  Fundamentally, our consciousness and our ego-self are not identical.  Generally speaking, the ego-self is an artifact of the mammalian brain.  The brain and the ego do not give rise to consciousness; consciousness is actually more fundamental than either of them.  This is a point of great confusion.  The ego is an illusion.  Reality itself is an illusion.




Hmmm...how could you know that the ego is dependent on the brain, while the true self is both non-local and independent of the brain?  What you've claimed is consistent with my experience of life, but I don't see any particular reason to believe that it's true.  It could be otherwise...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19321960 - 12/24/13 04:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"If thy mind be single thy whole body shall be full of light"

I remember something like that in the bible.

Personally:satansmoking::hellfire: we are legion.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: hmmn]
    #19321971 - 12/24/13 04:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Touche.

If reality is an illusion then is it really reality?




I define reality as the realm of consensus between human beings in their social relations and by extension what would be agreed upon in private.  I believe psychotic individuals are not in consensus reality, for example. 

It all depends on what you mean by "reality."  Surely, conventional awareness can be transcended, as I imagine almost everyone in this forum would agree.  But 'reality' as I (and others) have defined it is clearly not the whole story.

Quote:

hmmn said:

Hmmm...how could you know that the ego is dependent on the brain, while the true self is both non-local and independent of the brain?  What you've claimed is consistent with my experience of life, but I don't see any particular reason to believe that it's true.  It could be otherwise...




It is my impression that consciousness is more fundamental than matter and energy.  As the human nervous system, with its emotional-territorial drives (i.e. ego), is based on a deterministic interplay of matter and energy, I do not regard it as fundamental.  I identify the ego with those drives, and contend that they are automatic.  I further contend that objective consciousness is not automatic, that it is more fundamental, and that we can attain to it -- and should. 

I feel that this is what Don Juan was alluding to.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19322380 - 12/24/13 05:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Why are you saying Don Juan rather than Castaneda?

:confused:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19322388 - 12/24/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


is Yin and Yang not the magical male and female energy model, we do have many real things that relate to positive negative, and in sex male and female are essential (more often than not), but this beautiful idea should not be projected everywhere.





The concept of Yin and Yang describes the intrinsic homeostasis within the universe. To say it only applies to male and female is belittling imo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang


Edited by teknix (12/24/13 06:14 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19322397 - 12/24/13 06:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Castaneda was a pupil of Don Juan (who was a Shaman of the Yaqui tribe) when he was supposedly doing fieldwork for a Ph.D. in anthropology.  Don Juan is the one who said it; Castaneda, in his book, was quoting Don Juan.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19322399 - 12/24/13 06:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Oh, I thought he was a fictional character in a book. For what reason should the book be taken as anything but fiction, I mean is there any evidence of a Don Juan IRL?

This stuff isn't really new, and most if not all of it can be seen through various  spiritual practices preceding the books.



Edited by teknix (12/24/13 06:08 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19322517 - 12/24/13 06:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Oh, I thought he was a fictional character in a book. For what reason should the book be taken as anything but fiction, I mean is there any evidence of a Don Juan IRL?

This stuff isn't really new, and most if not all of it can be seen through various  spiritual practices preceding the books.






His critics contend that his works are pure fiction, while supporters range from claiming them to be legitimate, to saying, well, maybe they're not quite what he represented them to be, but they constitute valuable philosophy nonetheless.  Interestingly, it is public record that the research logs which were transcribed into his first three books did lead to a Ph.D.

Personally, I don't really buy the Castaneda myth myself, although I find parts of some of his books rather interesting.  The reason I don't buy it is that the books are a little too repetitive to be true -- as in, he's really good at writing about one thing so he does it over and over and fortunately for him finds a captive audience.  (These books did, of course, come out in the sixties).

Honestly, I just liked the quote, which I stumbled across some time back.  The first book -- The Teachings of Don Juan -- was good, but like I said, once I checked out two or three of the others I became somewhat disillusioned, thinking this guy found a niche and exploited it.

You're right, it's not new, and I don't recall anyone suggesting that it was.  I still think his notion about the two minds is fascinating.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19322606 - 12/24/13 07:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Do you think everyone really has two minds?

It is an interesting way to look at the phenomena of self, but I don't agree with the two minds, when a mind divided would achieve the same effect and seems more accurate, and to say it applies to everyone is most likely a stretch.

I say that because two minds sounds kind of schizophrenic and using the same word to describe independent phenomena doesn't do justice to one of the phenomena, if they are truly independent.

Could a single mind incorporate all of the above, and if so why is there a need for a dualistic two?

I can see it as an interesting metaphor, but not anything literal.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19322650 - 12/24/13 07:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Do you think everyone really has two minds?

It is an interesting way to look at the phenomena of self, but I don't agree with the two minds, when a mind divided would achieve the same effect and seems more accurate, and to say it applies to everyone is most likely a stretch.

I say that because two minds sounds kind of schizophrenic and using the same word to describe independent phenomena doesn't do justice to one of the phenomena, if they are truly independent.

Could a single mind incorporate all of the above, and if so why is there a need for a dualistic two?

I can see it as an interesting metaphor, but not anything literal.




It all depends on how you want to look at it, and what words you want to use.  Frankly, I think we have at least eight brains (the eight circuits).  You could also call it two "selves" -- the ego, which is illusory, and the true you, which is not.  It's just a guideline.  But I do think there exists a duality, which is that a part of you is instinctual and automatic, and another part is the true individual.

However many minds or brains or selves or whatever there are inside you, remember that there is only one consciousness, and it flows undivided.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19322662 - 12/24/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I thought that before too, until meditation led me to control normally autonomic processes.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19322688 - 12/24/13 07:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Have you ever perceived anything that is not within or encompassed by the mind, or pure awareness?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblehmmn


Registered: 01/09/13
Posts: 372
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19323862 - 12/25/13 12:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:shrug:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19323888 - 12/25/13 12:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
not the hemispheres, those have function, but mostly for body sense and body memory behind the frontal cortex.
even the frontal cortex which handles abstraction is like part of the externality of mind:
even when it is full of feelings, and those feelings are inside you.
the part that can be you you is the prefrontal cortex, the wee bit (way in front of the frontal cortex) that can correlate your experiences and your abstractions against each other in context of 'values'
in this tiny piece of brain
the tiny voice, the tiny impulses, and weak resolution has to negotiate cooperation with the overall automation that the rest of body mind represents.

like a cup compared to an ocean.

one really must choose their battles, and only wage to win.
the method is one of training the beast (not like you can steer the elephant in real time, what you can do is arrange training and practice, in real time it is an automation).

left and right brain theories have mostly been debunked, but the scientists have not all caught up to this, while the astrologists and charlatans are reveling in the confusion.




QFT

Also note comparisons to the voice of God being "a tiny, small voice" after the whirlwind and hurricanes of false prophets/elephant mating calls.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19324616 - 12/25/13 06:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Have you ever perceived anything that is not within or encompassed by the mind, or pure awareness?




Dear Teknix;
I guess there are things in this thread that are triggering you strongly, several side arguments have emerged and your voice is strongest but may divert from the core thread topic - but that is the nature of discussion - one must evaluate related things:

1. validation of shamanism versus the authenticity of Don Juan and Casteneda.
2. left right brain theory and pseudo science.
3. meditation, awareness, and autonomic function.
4. yin yang in everything.

In relation to these matters:

1. I think there is merit in discussions of shamanism, generally, but when discussing the wisdom of shamans we have to remember that they are rascals (such as we all are) who love to look and laugh at life, but who connect deeply with both love and loss, worship what they love and mourning what they have lost.
As rascals in our society, what they say (from perspectives of entheogenic inspiration) may be useful directly to those who are mourning or praying, but mostly needs to be interpreted in context of who they are and how they obtain their rascally insights to life.
Also the confusion related to authenticity of DonJuan and Casteneda is very consistent with the essence of being a Rascal; i.e. not being responsible to fulfill other peoples expectations of who you have to be to exist in any particular role. (a trickster)

2. left and right brain is consistent with left and right hand, left and right leg, left and right eye. Neural tissue does regenerate, and some brain can certainly be removed if diseased and a person can live on. Beyond that, attributions of value to left and right side are mostly arbitrary and for erroneous reasons that are not good science or even cause and effect karma.

3. meditation, the practice of awareness, could be a great tangent for this thread, because in meditation the 'tiny voice' is given the honor of speaking to the whole domain. in the practice of awareness, without any robotic ego challenge, a perspective is gained of the nature of mind and life, and values can be more deeply established through one's being while the tiny voice is engaged in the intimacy with the greater beast.
But to consider it as a gateway to autonomic control by conscious mind is a degenerate approach that many saddhus are know to have taken; their yogic demonstrations have earned them followings and livelihood.

4. yin and yang certainly are at the base of everything in the sense of the wave nature to all matter and energy, the constant fluctuation of positive and negative (as opposed to the polar opposition of two natures) - the depiction of yin yang as a wave with tiny dots of opposition within should be a clear clue to the beauty and ubiquity of the  concept being all about the wave nature of things - change. This does not correspond with left right brain, but it does correspond with a tit for tat conversation style - alternating one side then the other, pinging and ponging. But I don't think that was the OP's premise.

merry christmas shroomereenos!


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19324955 - 12/25/13 09:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:



left right brain theory and pseudo science.

yin yang in everything.






Well, I think that the people who wrote the articles could have jumped the gun, because in the article you presented by Huffington Post, the title reads that it is definitely debunked yet when you read the article it says it may have been debunked, so the exaggeration of debunking is only intended to grasp you attention, and honestly I don't understand how the evidence presented could be considered debunking, rather than providing a sliver of evidence to the contrary.
Even if it is pseudo science it is still describing the duality of the mind that most people face in my opinion, negative verse positive.

Quote:


meditation, awareness, and autonomic function.

But to consider it as a gateway to autonomic control by conscious mind is a degenerate approach





Why do you think the approach is degenerate, you claimed it but forgot the reasoning behind the claim. I don't personally have "little voices" during meditation, for that would be counter productive imo.

Quote:


validation of shamanism versus the authenticity of Don Juan and Casteneda.





I'm not really sure what point you are trying to get across here.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19324965 - 12/25/13 09:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Even if you don't like to look at the brain has have distinctly functioning attributes on one side or the other, the opposites are still contained within it somewhere, regardless if they are on opposite sides or the same side.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325093 - 12/25/13 10:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Little voice is a metaphor for the degree of command and control that the  prefrontal cortex can have

I.e. free will


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineIcyus
KavitārkikasiαΉƒHa
Male


Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
Last seen: 8 years, 27 days
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19325128 - 12/25/13 10:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I find that Don Juan simplifises things too much and atleast in his works it seems he doesnt see the whole picture..

You idiots keep arguing if it is two psycological parts or two parts of the physical brain.. One may have any opinion in this, yet the only truth is that it is a whole.. metaphoricly speaking, both you guys and Don Juan (the time he wrote the book) keep wondering where to slice the cake.. take a step back and see the cake, not two or three or eleven pieces, and stop then to argue which piece is which.. this is really insane.. even though it is quite the central part of both modern psycologi and knowledge in general..

You need to know that these divisions are mere attempts of us humans to describe the I, (or you, but you get the point). The brain isnt in pieces, nor is the consciousness.. though to describe aspects one must devide it, not having words to describe it all.. still.. someone might say your subconsciouss is in pain, or you are a righthemlsphere individual..or a feminine person to an other.. yet neither of these things actually excist.. righthemosphere, subconsciousness, masculinity and femininity.. they are but a part of the whole, and since we have no simgular words to describe the exact identity of the psyce one must categorise to find a close truth.. but it is important to know it is a close truth, and nothing more.. like this with psycological diagnoses.. they are never a houndred percent accurate if they arent named after the victim( or subject, or any word fitting not offensive to anyone).

that should sum it up..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


Edited by Icyus (12/25/13 11:06 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: Icyus]
    #19325222 - 12/25/13 11:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, that's why I said it isn't everyone and a mind divided is a more adequate description.

Oh, and calling people idiots is an ad hominem, any moron should know that.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19325254 - 12/25/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

RGV, I'm still curious as to why you think that the description of a gateway to the autonomic system is degenerate? I can see how it could degrade the mystical elements in regards to spirituality, yet I don't understand why that would necessarily be negative?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325277 - 12/25/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The phrase in the OP could also be a manipulatory tactic being used against those who desire to be a shaman. "If you want to be a shaman, you have to see it as two minds", is kind of what is being said/claimed.

So if you disagree then you must not be a shaman ?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325322 - 12/25/13 11:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think all he's really trying to say (in the original quote), ultimately, is that the ego is a false self.

I fail to see why such a notion is so controversial.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19325340 - 12/25/13 12:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The notion itself isn't, how it is said is. The ego isn't really existing in the first place, yet it is claimed to be existing in everyone as another mind?

We don't really know what he was trying to say because of the way he put it, imo.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineIcyus
KavitārkikasiαΉƒHa
Male


Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
Last seen: 8 years, 27 days
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325344 - 12/25/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

People are idiots. They will believe a lie because they would like it to be true, or because they fear it might be.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: Icyus]
    #19325354 - 12/25/13 12:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Or they are manipulated into believing it.

If you don't believe it then why are you claiming Don Juan said it rather than Castaneda wrote it?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325400 - 12/25/13 12:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Oh, and he is also putting himself as an authority on what constitutes a Shaman in insinuation.

Which "Shaman" is just another silly label for the ego to wear around it's neck. (Metaphorically)


Edited by teknix (12/25/13 12:25 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineIcyus
KavitārkikasiαΉƒHa
Male


Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
Last seen: 8 years, 27 days
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325484 - 12/25/13 12:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Oh, and he is also putting himself as an authority on what constitutes a Shaman in insinuation.

Which "Shaman" is just another silly label for the ego to wear around it's neck. (Metaphorically)



It might be, yes, but not to the person worthy of it... even though the title holds no actual copyright, if one may say so..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: Icyus]
    #19325507 - 12/25/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Why would a person worthy need or even want such a label?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
channelling casteneda [Re: Icyus]
    #19325547 - 12/25/13 01:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

a shaman is a rascal.

a shaman has  functional insights, but no functional superiority,
although obviously,
when you can see the pageant of life as a mix of automation, feelings, and personal participation, you are sharing the shaman's view, and it is beautiful, sad and hilarious.

in this perspective, mind and brain are the seat of automation (ego) and potentially of wisdom as well, and the wisdom is smaller than the automation (by far - hence the little voice).

the reason why influencing autonomous nervous system to show prowess is a degenerate goal of yogis, is that it steers seekers away from seeing that the mind (which is a one-ness, and the brain is a unified organ as well) in it's true light: as a trainable organ that sustains the body through cultural actions rather than physical adaptations,
but it is also an organ that can appreciate values and change the trainable fabric, by concerted effort and sticktoitiveness.

this is where the shaman is different from the saddhu, rather than making a show of subjugating the body's physicality, he/she will use the insight of the two minds to get beyond the limitation of ego.

what the saddhu is doing is not riding the elephant, but training a virtual elephant to ride the elephant. it is a ludicrously silly approach to liberation. It would make any shaman crack up with insane laughter - especially to see the acolytes taking the whole venture seriously.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325571 - 12/25/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
RGV, I'm still curious as to why you think that the description of a gateway to the autonomic system is degenerate? I can see how it could degrade the mystical elements in regards to spirituality, yet I don't understand why that would necessarily be negative?



wrong headed and silly, more so than negative, degenerate in that it drags people in unworthy directions, making unimportant things into goals.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325581 - 12/25/13 01:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Even if you don't like to look at the brain has have distinctly functioning attributes on one side or the other, the opposites are still contained within it somewhere, regardless if they are on opposite sides or the same side.



sure, opposites are among ideas, and ideas are in mind.
useful ones and useless ones just the same.
all part of the  aggregate associative contents of memory.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325590 - 12/25/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
The phrase in the OP could also be a manipulatory tactic being used against those who desire to be a shaman. "If you want to be a shaman, you have to see it as two minds", is kind of what is being said/claimed.

So if you disagree then you must not be a shaman ?



quite likely,
and so what,
maybe it is not important - you could be a different kind of a rascal. not all rascals are shaman rascals.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19325606 - 12/25/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

teknix said:
RGV, I'm still curious as to why you think that the description of a gateway to the autonomic system is degenerate? I can see how it could degrade the mystical elements in regards to spirituality, yet I don't understand why that would necessarily be negative?



wrong headed and silly, more so than negative, degenerate in that it drags people in unworthy directions, making unimportant things into goals.




Who's too decide the importance and superiority of one goal over another, especially if they lead to the same place? If two different goals lead to the same place, are the goals really different?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: channelling casteneda [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19325626 - 12/25/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
a shaman is a rascal.

a shaman has  functional insights, but no functional superiority,
although obviously,
when you can see the pageant of life as a mix of automation, feelings, and personal participation, you are sharing the shaman's view, and it is beautiful, sad and hilarious.

in this perspective, mind and brain are the seat of automation (ego) and potentially of wisdom as well, and the wisdom is smaller than the automation (by far - hence the little voice).

the reason why influencing autonomous nervous system to show prowess is a degenerate goal of yogis, is that it steers seekers away from seeing that the mind (which is a one-ness, and the brain is a unified organ as well) in it's true light: as a trainable organ that sustains the body through cultural actions rather than physical adaptations,
but it is also an organ that can appreciate values and change the trainable fabric, by concerted effort and sticktoitiveness.

this is where the shaman is different from the saddhu, rather than making a show of subjugating the body's physicality, he/she will use the insight of the two minds to get beyond the limitation of ego.

what the saddhu is doing is not riding the elephant, but training a virtual elephant to ride the elephant. it is a ludicrously silly approach to liberation. It would make any shaman crack up with insane laughter - especially to see the acolytes taking the whole venture seriously.




So a shaman doesn't only take on the label of a shaman, but the label of a rascal as well . . . hehe.

You consider ego as automation, I do not. I consider ego as self, or the idea's built upon one another to an illusion of what you are. The phenomena doesn't have to be the goal, but the path towards the goal. From personal experience, that was never the goal, only the effect of progress. Confirmation that you are on the right path, and without the need for a mystical explanation for the experience.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19325632 - 12/25/13 01:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

teknix said:
The phrase in the OP could also be a manipulatory tactic being used against those who desire to be a shaman. "If you want to be a shaman, you have to see it as two minds", is kind of what is being said/claimed.

So if you disagree then you must not be a shaman ?



quite likely,
and so what,
maybe it is not important - you could be a different kind of a rascal. not all rascals are shaman rascals.




So do you really think all shamans would claim the same thing, and if not then they are not to be considered as such?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325641 - 12/25/13 01:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


this is where the shaman is different from the saddhu, rather than making a show of subjugating the body's physicality, he/she will use the insight of the two minds to get beyond the limitation of ego.

what the saddhu is doing is not riding the elephant, but training a virtual elephant to ride the elephant. it is a ludicrously silly approach to liberation. It would make any shaman crack up with insane laughter - especially to see the acolytes taking the whole venture seriously.





Now you are using ego to mean two different things, once you claimed it as automation, then next you say it is the illusion of self. I'll have to look up what saddhu means, as I've never heard it before.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325651 - 12/25/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It seems like both Shamans and Saddhus are in the same boat as far as beliefs go. Both of them also choose to take on labels for their self, which is contradicting, as are most established practices today, that have such silly ranks and names for the people who correlate to the ranks.

I guess it is in my bias, that only egos could accept such labels for themself, or identifiers for their selfs.

A shaman is not really a shaman, a buddhist is not a buddhist, a saddhu is not a saddhu, ultimately.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325681 - 12/25/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Just like achieving enlightenment for oneself might be ones goal at the beginning of the path, along the way and through progress it forgoes being the goal.

So maybe the same is true with a real shaman? They start out wanting to be a shaman, yet in the end they realize how absurd the notion is in contradiction to progress.


Edited by teknix (12/25/13 08:47 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325714 - 12/25/13 02:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:


this is where the shaman is different from the saddhu, rather than making a show of subjugating the body's physicality, he/she will use the insight of the two minds to get beyond the limitation of ego.

what the saddhu is doing is not riding the elephant, but training a virtual elephant to ride the elephant. it is a ludicrously silly approach to liberation. It would make any shaman crack up with insane laughter - especially to see the acolytes taking the whole venture seriously.





Now you are using ego to mean two different things, once you claimed it as automation, then next you say it is the illusion of self. I'll have to look up what saddhu means, as I've never heard it before.




to get beyond the limitation of automation
one thing
ego
automation

(your automation is trying to pick my clarity apart, no?)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19325723 - 12/25/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Just like achieving enlightenment for oneself might be ones goal at the beginning of the path, along they way and to progress it forgoes being the goal.

So maybe the same is true with a real shaman? They start out wanting to be a shaman, yet in the end they realize how absurd the notion is in contradiction to progress.



true
but also the advance is hilariously real as well as contractictorially meaningless (I would rather have it than not but it has no weight or intrinsic value iykwim)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineIcyus
KavitārkikasiαΉƒHa
Male


Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
Last seen: 8 years, 27 days
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19325732 - 12/25/13 02:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I guess you are right.. there is no need for the titles..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19326006 - 12/25/13 03:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:


this is where the shaman is different from the saddhu, rather than making a show of subjugating the body's physicality, he/she will use the insight of the two minds to get beyond the limitation of ego.

what the saddhu is doing is not riding the elephant, but training a virtual elephant to ride the elephant. it is a ludicrously silly approach to liberation. It would make any shaman crack up with insane laughter - especially to see the acolytes taking the whole venture seriously.





Now you are using ego to mean two different things, once you claimed it as automation, then next you say it is the illusion of self. I'll have to look up what saddhu means, as I've never heard it before.




to get beyond the limitation of automation
one thing
ego
automation

(your automation is trying to pick my clarity apart, no?)




Automation to me is the autonomic system, like your heartbeat, if you mean something else then please clarify.

If you don't mean something else, then why call it the ego?

Am I trying to pick your clarity apart or am I trying to clear the murk from the water to achieve clarity?

I don't understand why you are calling the autonomous system the ego, when automation serves the purpose just fine. Then what are we to call the residual self-image in infinite regression?


Edited by teknix (12/25/13 03:57 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19326271 - 12/25/13 05:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

everything that you learn, which becomes automatic is the automation.
all the coordinated activities, including habits of speech, habits of thought, and even walking and going to the toilet become the automation of the self.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19326405 - 12/25/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Point taken, but what are we to call the residual self-image in infinite regression?

What confuses me is that you wrote "automation (ego)", sif it is to be considered the same?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19326479 - 12/25/13 06:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Are we talking about different things?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19326511 - 12/25/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Tell me if this makes sense to you:

You don't exist = false

You doesn't exist = true

Replacing "you" with "I".


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19326577 - 12/25/13 07:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Point taken, but what are we to call the residual self-image in infinite regression?

What confuses me is that you wrote "automation (ego)", sif it is to be considered the same?



yes the same thing

Quote:

teknix said:
Tell me if this makes sense to you:

You don't exist = false

You doesn't exist = true

Replacing "you" with "I".




only as a linguistic game.

what ever you think of is real.
you are real
these are closer to true


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19326602 - 12/25/13 07:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Nah, there is something much deeper than a linguistic game going on here.

Truly consider what is this "I" pointing at?

That "I" is the residual self-image that I was calling the ego, that you are likely perceiving everything through as a filter or lens.

It doesn't really exist, even though you do exist.


Edited by teknix (12/25/13 07:29 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19326678 - 12/25/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Don't analyse it, look at it, internally. Overanalyzing and arrogance would prevent you from seeing what I'm talking about.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19326706 - 12/25/13 07:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

We're not looking for an "intellectual" understanding here, we are looking for the root of this "I", and what it is pointing at.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19327595 - 12/26/13 03:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

moving towards a nobler attitude than you had before?

but possibly sliding off topic in the process.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19328179 - 12/26/13 10:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know if it is off-topic if it is what the shaman see's, the awareness beyond the ego. How can you know what a shaman see's, if you don't see what he see's. A seeing is what he see's, an understanding is not necessary until after the seeing takes place, then the understanding can be attempted to be worked out.


Edited by teknix (12/26/13 10:06 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: teknix]
    #19333545 - 12/27/13 04:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I really liked this guy


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSycoNautix
Male

Registered: 01/30/12
Posts: 608
Loc: NorCal
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19333668 - 12/27/13 05:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
"Every one of us human beings has two minds.  One is totally ours, and it is like a faint voice that always brings us order, directness, purpose.  The other mind is a foreign installation.  It brings us conflict, self-assertion, doubts, hopelessness."  --Yaqui Shaman Don Juan






So pretty much the shaman acknowledges that he possesses a sort of bipolarity within.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineIcyus
KavitārkikasiαΉƒHa
Male


Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
Last seen: 8 years, 27 days
Re: the shaman sees two minds [Re: SycoNautix]
    #19333678 - 12/27/13 05:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You simplify things too much... you would see bipolarity in everything... and not only two minds... think of consciousness as a endless bag of coins... all two sides..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Original Sensible Seeds Feminized Cannabis Seeds


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* God Exists
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Zahid 11,598 113 03/18/03 03:57 PM
by falcon
* Are you a slave to a God that doesn't exist?
( 1 2 3 all )
Larrythescaryrex 7,597 42 07/30/02 04:00 PM
by Larrythescaryrex
* Mabye aliens exist, and we just cant perceive them.
( 1 2 3 all )
NiGGy 4,971 45 01/14/03 08:32 AM
by NSKiller
* Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from...
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Shroomalicious 9,215 69 12/18/02 06:30 PM
by Strumpling
* God Cannot Exist
( 1 2 all )
jim_dewit 5,363 39 08/22/02 06:29 PM
by Xlea321
* how do you see energy?
( 1 2 all )
Monkah 3,687 32 01/16/03 09:46 AM
by ShrewDigsby
* Human Logic, Linguistics and The Mushroom ParabolaChair 3,260 6 04/29/04 05:59 AM
by fireworks_god
* linguistics and telepathy llib 1,224 13 07/17/02 07:30 PM
by Swami

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
2,129 topic views. 2 members, 9 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.049 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 14 queries.